Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Dave on April 26, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
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Gwyn, Buck from this forum, Sidthedog and myself made our second trip counting spawning steelhead in the upper Chilliwack River today. Our first trip to Centennial Channel was April 5 when we saw 0 fish and 0 redds.
Today was better :) as we saw lots of gravel movement, several obvious redds, and 15 steelhead, including 2 females actually spawning. All fish appeared in top shape and a few males were a good 16-18 lbs. Separate from the steelhead were 2 spawning trout, each about 16”.
We checked the upper portion of Yukalup Channel but observed nothing, including coho fry.
We plan on continuing these limited steelhead enumerations and will post our future findings.
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Dave, thanks for the report. I was just wondering if is good, average, or what? Or how does this compare to prior years? I will look forward to reading future findings. I assume this Channel is in the hatchery area?
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i found a spot in the upper river (main section) right on the side and counted 6 steelhead in spawning colours, also in a big deep calm pool counted many steelhead spawning and rested.this was on the weekend.
also caught 2 chromers and saw sevral more.
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Dave, thanks for the report. I was just wondering if is good, average, or what? Or how does this compare to prior years? I will look forward to reading future findings. I assume this Channel is in the hatchery area?
The channel is in the closed to fishing section of the upper river, opposite the old Centre Creek Juvenile Detention Site, which of course is now under First Nation's jurisdiction.
Unfortunately there is no historical enumeration data I am aware of, other than my own, to compare this to. Before today the most I had seen at this, the most primo habitat in the upper river, was 14 and that was the last week in May, 2003.
Today, the majority of fish seemed to be staging; we believe we will see more next count, next week.
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Ken Peters and myself walked Centennial channel on our third week count of spawning steelhead. Twenty live and 1 dead were observed along with numerous redds. It was felt that there
were more fish in the area but it appears they are spawning on the shallow riffles at night and dropping back into the deeper pools for cover during the day. Most fish were fairly large .
Dave and Sidthedog will do next weeks count.
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Dave and Sidthedog will do next weeks count.
Yeah, I know it's a long walk for you old farts :D :D Thanks for the update - any thoughts on how the dead fish died?
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Dave, fish was a large spawned out male.
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Dave, fish was a large spawned out male.
That sounds like Ken Peters :D Hey Dave, you may or may not remember me ... Mike Willcox from IPSFC way back in the day - Horsefly in '78 or so. I've worked with provincial environment ministry for last couple of decades. Ken says we provincial people have our heads up our butts when it comes to managing fish ;D. Whatever, just thought I'd say hi. I've got the steelheading bug back big time this year thanks to healthy returns in some places. I'm sure that has nothing to do with the provincial fisheries though ;) Good to hear you old farts are out there doing what we should be doing. Cheers
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Hey Mike - good to hear from you! Yeah, I remember a few parties back then at Horsefly :D
I don't blame the dedicated provincial people "for not doing their jobs" - hard to do anything when your budgets have been slashed to the bone.
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The good news .... :)Buck and I (no Sidthedog today) counted 32 steelhead and 1 trout this morning on our 4th trip to Centennial Channel this morning. As Buck reported last week, we suspect this number is low as the fish are very spooky and are possibly holding in deeper water during the day. All fish again appeared in excellent shape and large - one male looked about 20 lbs. On the way back we spotted 3 steelhead at the 3rd bridge, at the Middle Creek turnoff.
The bad news ... >:(recently the Chilliwack River Hatchery released its annual batch of steelhead juveniles. For the second straight year these juveniles were undersized – indeed I’m told these are the smallest juveniles ever released from this facility. As a general rule, smaller juveniles means poorer survival and increased residualization. As I understand the issue, DFO is mandated by the Province to produce 80g juveniles in one year. This is doable if warmer well water is used to augment the cooler river water and if the fish are fed appropriately.
DFO is under major budget constraints and the steelhead program is suffering for it as again this year, to save money the fish were kept on mainly river water and fed app 60% of there optimum ration.
For those that like this steelhead hatchery program, you should be upset that many of these undersized juveniles will become merganser and heron food. Future hatchery returns will be considerably smaller.
For those that are against this hatchery program, you should be seriously questioning the rationale of removing up to 80 wild fish from this system every year.
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A real worry for all of us who care deeply about the fishery.
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to save money the fish were kept on mainly river water and fed app 60% of there optimum ration.
Sad to hear that steelhead fry are fed only 60% of optimum ration at the hatchery.
Would DFO take private donations so that they could be fed properly?
A foodbank for starving steelhead fry?
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Would DFO take private donations so that they could be fed properly?
A foodbank for starving steelhead fry?
This past fall the Fraser Valley Salmon Society offered to pay the feed bill for chum fry, about $2000, which would have essentially doubled the Chilliwack adult chum production. A middle manager at DFO refused the money but said this year (2011) they will find the money to feed chums. What isn't said is that would be at the expense of the coho program as I'm told coho production will be reduced by 200k.
Having said that, perhaps the Province is more progressive when it comes to accepting outside financial assistance to help with the steelhead program ... Rodney, Bederko, any thoughts??
My personal feeling is if the program is not going to be managed properly, scrap it and leave what's left of the wild steelhead alone.
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Dave
-- 62085 hits on Vedder River steelhead info and only 12 hits on steelhead counts and smolt release size. Can you say APATHY. Only when fish returns are poor will the whining start.
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Dave
-- 62085 hits on Vedder River steelhead info and only 12 hits on steelhead counts and smolt release size. Can you say APATHY. Only when fish returns are poor will the whining start.
Actually Peter, it's 12 replies to 714 replies. ;)
Having said that, perhaps the Province is more progressive when it comes to accepting outside financial assistance to help with the steelhead program ... Rodney, Bederko, any thoughts??
My personal feeling is if the program is not going to be managed properly, scrap it and leave what's left of the wild steelhead alone.
Dave, FFSBC indeed accepts support from private donors so that's definitely an option to look into. I believe FVSS has donated to FFSBC to cover the cost of some steelhead programs in the past (Stave River clippings)?
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Thanks Rod - I'll leave that fund raising to someone else as honestly, I would prefer there be no hatchery steelhead produced in the C-V ;)
Sidthedog and I completed our final survey of Centennial Channel this morning and counted 19 spawning steelhead; all fish were on redds and seemed a bit smaller than last weeks fish. Conditions for observations were rather poor with the trees now leafing out and the sun throwing confusing shadows; Sidthedog's antics probably spooked a few fish as well ;D My guess is I didn't see them all but I did see a lot more coho fry than last week.
Gawd, wish there were more off channel spawning and rearing areas in the upper river like Centennial! It's a jewel.
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Hey Rod,
Why not set up a paypal account on your site where people can donate directly to specific programs:
- re-stocking
- restoration
- etc..
Not everyone has the time to get out and directly contribute to management and conservation but everyone has some $$$. "count the pennies and the dollars will come"
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Hey Rod,
Why not set up a paypal account on your site where people can donate directly to specific programs:
- re-stocking
- restoration
- etc..
Not everyone has the time to get out and directly contribute to management and conservation but everyone has some $$$. "count the pennies and the dollars will come"
I couldnt agree more. Whilst we might like to take moral high ground by buying steelie tags and claiming we are paying for their conservation, there is minimal accountability and transparency of where and how this money gets spent. If there was a direct funding account for a specific hatchery we would likely see greater results not influenced by government bureaucracy.
Sometimes hard cash goes further than man hours. To buy more food or heat the water, as we have seen in this C-V case!
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Funding for the steelhead program is entirely paid by DFO. Not one red cent comes from the Province. Where does all the money go from our steelhead punch cards? You would think that a portion could be directed toward these programs. Pumping cost of well water at start up is about 5 K per month. This 10-11 degree C warm water is required to obtain additional growth on these fish going into the winter months. If the well is not turned on there can be a loss of approximately 10 grams of growth per month. Releasing under sized smolts does little for the recreational sports angler and is a waste of a valuable resource. If DFO is not willing to cover the cost of rearing smolts to their target size of 80 grams then brood stock requirements should be reduced. This would effectually reduce the program by 75%. :(
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Good to see you've finally retired Buck ;) Great information
anorden, maybe this could turn into something good. Good points
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Great info Dave & Buck....good to hear the May counts were up a bit.
With the hatchery product no longer being raised on warmer well water (thus greatly reducing their survivability & size) it really questions the wisdom behind the removal of up to 40 pairs of wild spawners from the gene pool.
Surely this hatchery programs' days are numbered...the river itself is by far the best & cheapest nursery we have...we must treat her right.
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Surely this hatchery programs' days are numbered...the river itself is by far the best & cheapest nursery we have...we must treat her right.
I agree with your sentiments JS and also think this program on the C-V will eventually be curtailed by DFO as a necessary cost cutting measure. Sadly, as Buck suggested earlier, there doesn't seem to be a lot of people interested enough to force a change as to the way these fish are "managed".
For anyone with the inclination, use Google Earth to follow the Chilliwack River downstream from Chilliwack Lake. What screams out from the satellite imagery in this near pristine watershed is the lack of mainstem spawning areas. Can you say cobble?
Just think if the money spent on this hatchery program was put into off channel habitat restoration in the upper river ....
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Dave do you have an opinion on whether or not that the fertilization program is working ?
your report on the hatchery being no longer being sustainable due to lack of funds and the resulting undersized product is very intriguing as looking forward there seems to be no fountain of funds that will ever see the hatchery returned to its glory days.
I do feel that the Vedder could become self sustainable with some quality spawning channels and rearing habitat but the river, is from what I know nutrient low so that is why my initial question on the fertilization program finally becomes relevant.
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EZ Rolling, you bet I have an opinion on the nutrient enrichment program on the C-V.
It works.
As you state, this system is nutrient deficient. To compensate, fertilizers are used to take the place of historic salmon carcasses. The last data I have seen was from 2009 and basically, the juvenile salmonids sampled in the treated areas were larger, in some cases considerably larger, than those sampled in areas with no added nutrients.
IMO, this nutrient enrichment program is the best (and only) thing happening on the C-V today and we as anglers, or maybe just people who care about steelhead, should ensure this program continues. Costs to the Province are negligible as the C-V program is pretty much fully funded by various local environmental groups.
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EZ Rolling, you bet I have an opinion on the nutrient enrichment program on the C-V.
It works.
As you state, this system is nutrient deficient. To compensate, fertilizers are used to take the place of historic salmon carcasses. The last data I have seen was from 2009 and basically, the juvenile salmonids sampled in the treated areas were larger, in some cases considerably larger, than those sampled in areas with no added nutrients.
IMO, this nutrient enrichment program is the best (and only) thing happening on the C-V today and we as anglers, or maybe just people who care about steelhead, should ensure this program continues. Costs to the Province are negligible as the C-V program is pretty much fully funded by various local environmental groups.
I know that this thread is old(ish), but it brings up some valid points.
I saw that at least one member stated they didn't want hatchery steelhead on the C-V...not asking in a rude manner, just as a seventeen year old...why? I haven't heard of this before, kind of curious!
Also, I think it would be beneficial to see exactly how much the steelhead hatchery gets versus how much it needs, and then do the basic math. Calculate the differential, put that on a bunch of websites and spread the word! I, for one, do not feel that this is impossible, it would just require some effective and consistent effort from those who are in a position to help. Maybe this is just my naivety, but this doesn't seem impossible to me, just a lot of work.
John
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John
There are a few anglers who would like to see production of hatchery fish eliminated. It comes down to how many fish one would like catch. Wild stocks have not recovered even though they have been closed for retention for 35 years. Habitat destruction along with poor ocean survivals are probably the main culprits and most likely will not improve.
The hatchery receives no funding from the provincial government for the rearing of steelhead. Food cost and the pumping of well water to get juveniles up to size is very costly and is becoming a major concern. Cost cutting is at the top of the agenda these days and is only going to get worse. Production cuts are presently in the works. :(
As an example, the Thompson River wild steelhead population continues to decline. At what point do we intervene to try and save this run ? Heaven forbid that a hatchery fish should return to this system. The alternative is to have no returning steelhead.
DB leave the hatchery fish alone.
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:D not likely ;)
John, here's my $.02
There’s a lot of recent evidence that shows hatchery steelhead programs harm wild steelhead stocks. This is especially true in the US where their early hatchery protocols, considered good science at the time, were in fact not. Do a Google search and you’ll find tons of information on this subject.
That’s not necessarily the case in BC however where for the most part only wild brood fish are used, making returning F1 fish genetically identical to their parents but lacking the ‘diverse survivability aspect’ of living up to 3 years in the river before smolting. It’s when these fish return and spawn and continue to do so over generations that things go bad.
On the Chilliwack about 80 wild fish are used for the hatchery program which costs DFO app 100k annually. The problem, as I see it, is no one knows if the population of these brood fish can withstand this rate of removal, nor do we know how many hatchery fish return as progeny from these 80. If we don’t know how many wild and hatchery fish are spawning we run the same risks happening in the US. Basically we are depleting an unmeasured gene pool.
Economics and social values are a very important consideration on a river like the C-V; so close to so many people. Much money is spent on so many fronts by anglers on this system.
I’m not suggesting we close all steelhead hatcheries -as Chris Gadsden (and now Buck) stated in another post, some systems with extremely low numbers like the Seymour, Norrish, Lynn Creek, etc, etc must have hatchery fish or there would not be any at all. And I agree a hatchery steelhead is better than no steelhead. Just saying I’m not sure if the Chilliwack needs or if it’s wild fish can afford it.
I suggest until we have these data, and/or until more money is put to the Chilliwack River steelhead hatchery program to make it more successful, ie. warmer water and food, matrix spawning, and using other progressive enhancement techniques, this 100k would be better spent on habitat improvements in the upper river.
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oops! bad C&P job :-[
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The bad news ... >:(recently the Chilliwack River Hatchery released its annual batch of steelhead juveniles. For the second straight year these juveniles were undersized – indeed I’m told these are the smallest juveniles ever released from this facility. As a general rule, smaller juveniles means poorer survival and increased residualization. As I understand the issue, DFO is mandated by the Province to produce 80g juveniles in one year. This is doable if warmer well water is used to augment the cooler river water and if the fish are fed appropriately.
DFO is under major budget constraints and the steelhead program is suffering for it as again this year, to save money the fish were kept on mainly river water and fed app 60% of there optimum ration.
For those that like this steelhead hatchery program, you should be upset that many of these undersized juveniles will become merganser and heron food. Future hatchery returns will be considerably smaller.
For those that are against this hatchery program, you should be seriously questioning the rationale of removing up to 80 wild fish from this system every year.
Dave
-- 62085 hits on Vedder River steelhead info and only 12 hits on steelhead counts and smolt release size. Can you say APATHY. Only when fish returns are poor will the whining start.
BUMP
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Timely bump Sterling.
Some friends and I were just talking about these issues that Dave and Buck were discussing a few years back and since.
Hopefully the early run so far is not an indication of the enhanced run as a whole. Interestingly most of the fish I have seen so far have been wild, and hatchery fish few and far between.
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Extremely timely bump BNF861 ;) Buck and I just got off the phone about this possible issue and are headed into the upper river tomorrow for a look see of potential problems for future spawning steelhead, which up that far is basically beavers or human induced.
Rain is forecast for this watershed soon and the steelhead catches after that will give a better idea of just how strong the early return is.
Here's hoping.
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Steelhead numbers after this rain I think so far are still lower than last year, and many say that that was not much of a year either.
What do the experienced Vedder people think? Hatchery cuts effecting returns?
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The worse year I have seen personally, another blanked day today and saw no others either. Conditions perfect and nice runs fished. Must be the fish farms causing it. :P
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The worse year I have seen personally, another blanked day today and saw no others either. Conditions perfect and nice runs fished. Must be the fish farms causing it. :P
It's not the farms Chris.
It has to have something to do with their life history. I've been meaning to look into it further, but haven't had time. The reason I think it's life history of winters is because many of the rivers I fish for summer runs had very good or above average returns, not just this year but last year as well. On the flip side, the winter returns have been suffering the last 2 years, very much so this year everywhere.
Add in exceptional coho and pink runs (apparently salmon farms affect the pinks the most according to AM?), and I think any argument around farms is very weak.
What do the experienced Vedder people think? Hatchery cuts effecting returns?
I'd say it has a bit to do with hatcheries, but mostly it's just whatever is going on in the ocean. Indeed all across the island and mainland I have seen that the hatchery rivers seem more affected than the wild rivers (maybe something to do with releasing "dumb" smolts, which magnifies that whole life history thing that I think might be causing low returns with winter runs). The fact is, I know the people that conduct the swim counts on the island, and every single river they counted so far this year has less than half of the "normal" numbers. Here's hoping there is an extremely good late push (like with the coho), or the winter run steelhead are in big trouble all across the island (and parts of the mainland).
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I posted in another thread in the report section about this.
Im not sure how good a measuring stick Freds derby is but by the end of last January, there were over 150 steelhead weighed in for the derby. This year, to date, with only a few days remaining in the month, there have been just over 60 fish weighed in. I also remember a lot of fisherman complaining of a slow year last year.
Im not sure if derby participation is up or down but thats a pretty drastic drop off.
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Pathetic year. When I have to resort to the lower end of the river to catch fish you know its bad. Although I did wack a beauty tonight.