Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: jon5hill on April 13, 2010, 10:34:14 AM
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Please watch the video, it's extremely informative. Please do your part, join the GET OUT Migration, http://salmonaresacred.org/ (http://salmonaresacred.org/)
Here is the video, enjoy (it has really catchy music too!)
http://vimeo.com/10886081 (http://vimeo.com/10886081)
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Great video.
Some other recent links. ]
For more details of the 2010 WINGS ‘Women of Discovery Awards’ please visit: http://www.wingsworldquest.org/women-of-discovery-awards/ <http://www.wingsworldquest.org/women-of-discovery-awards/> and http://explore.wingsworldquest.org/node/470 <http://explore.wingsworldquest.org/node/470>
http://ogwilaogwa.chipin.com/molina-and-walk-out-migration <http://ogwilaogwa.chipin.com/molina-and-walk-out-migration>
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Do people not realize that the fight against salmon farming is big business too? Anyone check out what David Suzuki is driving or what his house is like?
About the sockeye... the Americans have a hatchery program that releases millions of fish into the wild. These fish compete with some of our sockeye runs for food in the ocean. Is it possible that this has taken a toll on the Fraser River sockeye? If it's the Salmon farms causing the problems why was the pink return so high? Why were the Vancouver Island sockeye returns good?
What would happen to the ocean stock if we didn't farm seafood?
Just points worth looking at. i know people will comment that I must be employed by the fish farming industry etc etc but really, I just feel the facts are not here. Just propaganda as always and people are too lazy to look for real data. People are spoon fed this type of information and for some reason take it as the gospel.
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Do people not realize that the fight against salmon farming is big business too? Anyone check out what David Suzuki is driving or what his house is like?
About the sockeye... the Americans have a hatchery program that releases millions of fish into the wild. These fish compete with some of our sockeye runs for food in the ocean. Is it possible that this has taken a toll on the Fraser River sockeye? If it's the Salmon farms causing the problems why was the pink return so high? Why were the Vancouver Island sockeye returns good?
What would happen to the ocean stock if we didn't farm seafood?
Just points worth looking at. i know people will comment that I must be employed by the fish farming industry etc etc but really, I just feel the facts are not here. Just propaganda as always and people are too lazy to look for real data. People are spoon fed this type of information and for some reason take it as the gospel.
::)
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Do people not realize that the fight against salmon farming is big business too? Anyone check out what David Suzuki is driving or what his house is like?
So do you know the answer? just curious.. ;D ???
Let me guess - solar power or electric car and probably live in a tree house like Tarzan? ;D ;D
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Do people not realize that the fight against salmon farming is big business too? Anyone check out what David Suzuki is driving or what his house is like?
About the sockeye... the Americans have a hatchery program that releases millions of fish into the wild. These fish compete with some of our sockeye runs for food in the ocean. Is it possible that this has taken a toll on the Fraser River sockeye? If it's the Salmon farms causing the problems why was the pink return so high? Why were the Vancouver Island sockeye returns good?
What would happen to the ocean stock if we didn't farm seafood?
Just points worth looking at. i know people will comment that I must be employed by the fish farming industry etc etc but really, I just feel the facts are not here. Just propaganda as always and people are too lazy to look for real data. People are spoon fed this type of information and for some reason take it as the gospel.
Who gives a crap about Suzuki. He was in it for nature years ago. As well as to make money off his show. Now its money, money, money . But salmon farms come on. They are a major factor(not the only factor) to alot of fish. Yes lets just wait until the fishfarms and government give us all the facts. Great idea. Fish farms are another form of cancer on the water. You might have a wait and see attitude but the ocean can't make that decision. Get them on land where they can harvest the fertilizer as well as the fish.
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Do people not realize that the fight against salmon farming is big business too? Anyone check out what David Suzuki is driving or what his house is like?
About the sockeye... the Americans have a hatchery program that releases millions of fish into the wild. These fish compete with some of our sockeye runs for food in the ocean. Is it possible that this has taken a toll on the Fraser River sockeye? If it's the Salmon farms causing the problems why was the pink return so high? Why were the Vancouver Island sockeye returns good?
What would happen to the ocean stock if we didn't farm seafood?
Just points worth looking at. i know people will comment that I must be employed by the fish farming industry etc etc but really, I just feel the facts are not here. Just propaganda as always and people are too lazy to look for real data. People are spoon fed this type of information and for some reason take it as the gospel.
Ask Alexandra Morton how much money she has made fighting open pen aquaculture in BC. I'm sure she'll give you a negative number. David Suzuki and what he drives? are you seriously that naive? Have you even the slightest idea about the science? Are you even remotely informed or educated about the issues and the literature? I've been to a number of meetings, including the most recent dialogue regarding the collapse of the Fraser Sockeye, and hatchery fish from the states was not even discussed at all.
Look at the science before you blabber about random things you have no sources for. Please quote me something from somewhere, so we can look at it and discuss. You have not done any research, so refrain from posting unless you actually do an ounce of homework. ::)
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I certainly do not wish to come across as a dumb troll. I agree that we should not just wait for gov't and salmon farmers to provide facts however, I would apply the same scrutiny to any info regardless of it's source. I think that many people attach an immediate credibility to an environmentalist's claims whether it's deserved or not. An example of this is the way "An Inconvenient Truth" was perceived, people licked this up and global warming was the new religion but since that movie many of the scientists and the data presented have been proven wrong. Give this a read:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_W90Iqq6WKZDieukjRUChXJ;jsessionid=A152EC485EFFCF74F40DCF7E92405B4C
or do a little research and find your own info on the subject.
Yamadirt, just provide one explanation as to why we had such a significant pink salmon run when Ms. Morton had predicted near extinction. The salmon farms were to be THE contributing factor to the pink decline but the very fish who migrate near the farms return in abundance.
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Here you go John
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/lice-pou/lice-pou04-eng.htm
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/what-is-salmon-ranching/
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/category/salmon-ranching-101/
http://salmonfarming.blogspot.com/
It's not fair to assume I've done no research or assume I haven't done my homework. I have plenty of resource from which to draw upon and am privy to plenty of data on the subject. The point about Suzuki was just to say that money is a motive for him like any other and that always affects objectivity.
PS Just like you said John "Look at the science"!!!
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Yamadirt, just provide one explanation as to why we had such a significant pink salmon run when Ms. Morton had predicted near extinction. The salmon farms were to be THE contributing factor to the pink decline but the very fish who migrate near the farms return in abundance.
Ms. Morton didn't predict near extinction of the Fraser Pink salmon run. Dr. Martin Krkosek published a paper in the journal Science that projected pink salmon populations in the Broughton archipelago originating from the Ahta and Viner river systems toward rapid local extinction. Source: http://www.math.ualberta.ca/~mkrkosek/Lenfest%20RSR%20sea%20lice%20final%2012.07.pdf (http://www.math.ualberta.ca/~mkrkosek/Lenfest%20RSR%20sea%20lice%20final%2012.07.pdf)
Once again, before you make broad sweeping generalizations about what factors were supposed to be THE contributing factors about anything, please actually do a shred of research instead of making a random statement with no sources, citations or personal experience.
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Jonn, A. Morton is listed as a co- Author in the link you provided.
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Here you go John
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/lice-pou/lice-pou04-eng.htm
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/what-is-salmon-ranching/
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/category/salmon-ranching-101/
http://salmonfarming.blogspot.com/
It's not fair to assume I've done no research or assume I haven't done my homework. I have plenty of resource from which to draw upon and am privy to plenty of data on the subject. The point about Suzuki was just to say that money is a motive for him like any other and that always affects objectivity.
PS Just like you said John "Look at the science"!!!
Independent science, unlike the gray literature and websites with factoids you have posted demonstrate that sea lice are both in higher abundance in areas where fish farms are present, and negatively impact wild fish. The DFO is not an independent source. It is a federal institution with vested interest in promoting aquaculture in Canada for foreign multinational investment. The independent science demonstrates that this interest is in direct contradiction with DFO's other mandate, which is to protect wild salmon. The reason we are working to move salmon farms out of the way of migration routes and/or on land based facilities, is because the DFO is not satisfying their mandate to protect wild fish. DFO's own research has consistently dodged the issue and as such is highly controversial. This is not just tree hugging hippies trying to find something to complain about, this is not an effort to make money as you stated above. The science is in, it's up to us what we want to do about it. I encourage your skepticism, as a scientist that is our default expression. However, reckless disregard for people's efforts to save wild stocks as bandwagoners for sustainability and environmentalism is down right absurd.
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Jonn, A. Morton is listed as a co- Author in the link you provided.
Of course she is, yet it's entirely beside the point. The more you speak, the more of a reactionary troll you appear to be. I can appreciate playing devils advocate, but you're not even making valid argument.
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Not a troll John, just a passionate fisherman offering a different perspective. I get it if it's not welcome here, I'm really not interested in confrontation. Just like to provoke thought and really do care about the preservation/conservation of things. I have kids man.
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Not a troll John, just a passionate fisherman offering a different perspective. I get it if it's not welcome here, I'm really not interested in confrontation. Just like to provoke thought and really do care about the preservation/conservation of things. I have kids man.
Different perspective is a highly sought after commodity in the world of politics. All those extremely successful aquaculture firms from Norway pay millions for it, it's called lobbying. I can appreciate your reasoning, as forming decisions about an issue is based on looking at all angles possible, then weighing it out. You can imagine how much hogwash must be on the internet, especially these days. I trust that we can both conclude that independent scientific journals are about the most objective way of looking at things, and when dealing with something as invisible to the average citizen as sea lice in the ocean permeating from fish farms - it's our best tool. If you look at literature published about the contentious issues regarding aquaculture (disease, parasitism, waste, nitrification, invasive escapements, and so on..) the vast majority has determined that wherever fish farms operate, wild fish take a hit. If you value wild salmon, you should stand up and do something about it. Look at the history of aquaculture, specifically salmon farming. Norways wild stocks were demolished, Scotlands took a major hit, then Chile's wild stocks were nearly completely wiped out from ISA which would not have propagated at the rate and density had it not been for open-pen feed lots where vectors for these diseases and parasites are in close proximity and by the hundreds of thousands. You have a gut, use it - the ocean is not a toilet.
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No need for hostility and accusations in this thread... these discussions force its participants to consider conflicting opinions and often lead people to strengthen their original positions.
gordc -
I understand your skepticism around this subject. The first link you provided discusses the apparent "rhetoric" littered throughout "An Inconvenient Truth". Although this is true, I think it's important to understand the purpose of the movie and its intended audience. The majority of the population is not highly educated. Sometimes this "rhetoric" is necessary in order to get the message across to a broad audience. Could you imagine the impact of such a documentary without this emphasis? In my opinion the article in that link was equal and opposite by ignoring one of the main points, which was not solely that the earth is warming, but the rate at which it is warming.
This rhetoric has a similar effect for the major voices on the issue of salmon farming and wild salmon returns... However, the issue can become extremely clouded as parties with conflicting interests continue to submit publications, both sides sometimes misrepresenting previous studies to fit their own agenda. Having done a fairly extensive literature review on the effect of salmon farming in the Broughton Archipelago some time ago, I found that (IMO) even publications by Morton and Krkosek sometimes pushed the envelope by misrepresenting findings from european studies. At the end of the day, I feel that a bit of logic and judgement should be exercised. Doesn't it make sense, that juvenile pink salmon migrating to the ocean, not having fully developed their scales, would be particularly susceptible to lice produced by salmon farms? Are lessons from the failures of aquaculture throughout Europe and South America not enough to make us shift towards alternatives?
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Keep it Civil folks. As Fisherama has pointed out, opinions may differ, that's why there are discussions.
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So its been a year and a half since this debate reared its ugly head.
Unfortunately both sides of the discussion can say "show me the science"or "do your research before posting" or "your homework" bla bla bla. But the facts are that the science(data), most of it, is represented in a manor of convenience from both sides. Sad to say.
I am always surprised that no body ever states their credentials here. So maybe credentials like what your education and occupation should be a part of the posts in this discussion.
Me for example, high school education, 17 years salmon farming 14 of which spent diving, avid sports fisher pretty much since birth, out door lover, love my dog 38 years of age. What can I say, just a normal guy. This link kinda suggests what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw How ever it will not present how much I love fish.
I have been salmon farming since before in was ever heavily on the radar(so to speak) from environmentalists here in B.C. I have followed the "activist" and how they operate as well and in my opinion if you walk up to an activist and ask them what they want they will say they want salmon farms gone, apposed to, we want wild salmon to flourish. I know I know thats what they do and that how it works. My point is is that that is that they are distracted from what they say they want by what they do and I just do not buy it, any of it. Not that way.
During my years working on the farms I have seen allot of positive environmental improvements and change. I also work in an area that has no lice problems... I am talking right next to zero lice due to the low salinity in the area. They also do not use Medications, antibiotic, and treatments like "SLICE"
So I do have hope. Hope that both can co-exists. That is salmon farms and salmon stocks.
So if your cringing and the hackles are getting erect on your back while you read this, take a deep breath, calm down, and try to understand that I do love salmon and I love to fish so maybe we could be friends in reality. Some of my fishing buddies are strongly against fish farming and we are still real close friends and enjoy the discussions with out telling each other what to do like do your homework, your dumb etc. We learn from one another and that's how this thread would be I hope.
I think that it is safe to say that anybody found on this site cares dearly for salmon and fish in general so relax and enjoy. Honestly, it took me a while to relax and enjoy.
IMO
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For those who care to read past posts on the topic see the links. It goes on and on and on and on..... ??? ??? ???
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20193.msg191208#msg191208
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20108.msg190741#msg190741
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20391.msg192798#msg192798
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20382.msg192753#msg192753
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20367.msg192565#msg192565
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20270.msg192404#msg192404
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So its been a year and a half since this debate reared its ugly head.
Unfortunately both sides of the discussion can say "show me the science"or "do your research before posting" or "your homework" bla bla bla. But the facts are that the science(data), most of it, is represented in a manor of convenience from both sides. Sad to say.
I am always surprised that no body ever states their credentials here. So maybe credentials like what your education and occupation should be a part of the posts in this discussion.
Me for example, high school education, 17 years salmon farming 14 of which spent diving, avid sports fisher pretty much since birth, out door lover, love my dog 38 years of age. What can I say, just a normal guy. This link kinda suggests what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw How ever it will not present how much I love fish.
I have been salmon farming since before in was ever heavily on the radar(so to speak) from environmentalists here in B.C. I have followed the "activist" and how they operate as well and in my opinion if you walk up to an activist and ask them what they want they will say they want salmon farms gone, apposed to, we want wild salmon to flourish. I know I know thats what they do and that how it works. My point is is that that is that they are distracted from what they say they want by what they do and I just do not buy it, any of it. Not that way.
During my years working on the farms I have seen allot of positive environmental improvements and change. I also work in an area that has no lice problems... I am talking right next to zero lice due to the low salinity in the area. They also do not use Medications, antibiotic, and treatments like "SLICE"
So I do have hope. Hope that both can co-exists. That is salmon farms and salmon stocks.
So if your cringing and the hackles are getting erect on your back while you read this, take a deep breath, calm down, and try to understand that I do love salmon and I love to fish so maybe we could be friends in reality. Some of my fishing buddies are strongly against fish farming and we are still real close friends and enjoy the discussions with out telling each other what to do like do your homework, your dumb etc. We learn from one another and that's how this thread would be I hope.
I think that it is safe to say that anybody found on this site cares dearly for salmon and fish in general so relax and enjoy. Honestly, it took me a while to relax and enjoy.
IMO
Cite me some literature indicating that open net-pen salmon farms that lie in migration routes have neutral or positive impacts on the environment from an independent scientific source. I'm not talking about government research or acme research institute. Pure academic literature, what's referred to as the primary literature. It gets published in peer reviewed journals. I get it, we're on the same team, but you stated that, "the science is represented in a manor of convenience from both sides". If this is the case you shouldn't have any trouble finding it.
Jon
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IMO
Jon,
I am an ordinary guy generally and I come to this discussion as a fishing enthusiast and with a reasonable amount of experience and knowledge on the topic. And probably more hands on than most here. I have high school. Flipping through text and "peer reviewed science" papers isn't really my bag. So no I will not go searching. I will say this though about the broughton. If you look at historical pink return graphs you will see that there have been massive returns during salmon farming it that area. I am not saying there is nothing wrong or no relationship there. That is raw data without all the hubub and it is clear raw data that I understand. Again, I work for a company that does not use chemicals, medications, antibiotics, treatments slice ect. and grows spring salmon in low densities. I come from a totally different perspective. That is what am saying. I am just saying its out there and there are some positive things happening in salmon farming. IMO to say that salmon farming is hands down bad for wild salmon is like saying sport fishing/food fishing/com fishing is really bad for wild salmon. Ya sure is but if it is all done correctly than it is possible. (which reminds me, I strongly feel that any fisher should have a fishing training course like hunting to have the privilege)
Sadly the movement to get salmon farms gone has become a massive distraction from so many other issues affecting salmon management. The Alaskan Pollock fishery, global warming, forestry practices, hatchery enhancement, predator populations, Alaskan salmon ranching(farming).
Anyway, it is a magnificent morning and I am well rested, feel great and have to get on with my life here.
Enjoy the day.
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Sadly the movement to get salmon farms gone has become a massive distraction from so many other issues affecting salmon management. The Alaskan Pollock fishery, global warming, forestry practices, hatchery enhancement, predator populations, Alaskan salmon ranching(farming).
Anyway, it is a magnificent morning and I am well rested, feel great and have to get on with my life here.
Enjoy the day.
Why not err on the side of caution? Why not relish in the fact that we have massive public support for at least one threat to the existence of wild salmon, and it's a threat that we have direct control over. I don't see you out there beating drums and rallying up support to stop the Alaskan Pollock fishery, quell the seals, or ban all hatchery plantings, so why be a detractor for one such movement that makes sense. You may not have access to the literature, but there are numerous publications from wherever open-pen feedlots exist that clearly demonstrate the negative impact on our wild fish, the marine benthic environment, our shellfish, and the system as a whole. It doesn't take a scientist to realize that dumping what amounts to raw sewage into the ocean as well as pesticides, fertilizers, antibiotics, and other detergents is not good for our ocean. In fact, I think an ordinary guy can come to this conclusion quite easily.
Aquaculture in principle is an absolutely awesome idea. By relying on a predictable and renewable commodity we can both reduce pressure on wild stocks, and market it more efficiently. It is completely irresponsible to do this if it imperils the wild fishery, as has been demonstrated. We don't move against aquaculture, we move against open-pen salmon farms. High density feed lots that exist in direct migration paths of wild fish stocks are a threat to our wild fish, and I have for one have not been tricked into thinking they are harmless.
The idea I'm trying to convey is that yes, we are on the same page. You may practice sustainable salmon farming and going about it by using a native species, and at low densities to avoid any serious parasite/disease implications. This is exactly the type of practice we are aiming to universalize. Sadly, you have misunderstood us and think we're against the premise of aquaculture rather than its irresponsible abuse. We want everyone who practices aquaculture in BC to have BC's wild salmon in mind when they do it. I can say that the ultimate goal is to get them out of the water, so that the wastes can be used as fertilizer, among other things. At the very least, we want them out of the way of the fish that actually belong here, so that their effects on migrating juveniles can be reduced as much as possible.
J