Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Every Day on February 08, 2009, 08:38:52 PM
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So how many of you have ever gotten a non-anadromous (resident) 'bow out of the Vedder before?
Here is one my buddy got today, very scrappy and pretty looking fish to boot ;D
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/fishing_in_summer/IMG_0253.jpg)
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I got one on boxing day a year ago and I was surprised when it hit my prawn. Still do not know how it got it in it's mouth.
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I pulled two out of the river on Thursday. Both about that same size...
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Have caught a ton in the Chilliwack over the years while steelheading and got some beauties pushing 18 inches. Have had a couple days where I caught 3-4 of them. Mostly caught in the Upper river. They like bugs
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how do you tell if it's a resident or not?
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White tipped fins... spots below lateral line.
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Looks like a steelhead to me, must have put up one hell of a fight. ;)
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Yup!
Saved me from a skunk more than once! :)
Especially when fly fishing.
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Technically speaking, there's no easy way to tell if they're resident type or ocean type. They can smolt at any time in their life stage. Yes, most steelhead do smolt at an earlier age than the fish shown above. However, National Marine Fisheries Service, will define this fish as a steelhead until either genetic testing is done or there is a natural downstream barrier that prevents the fish from reaching saltwater.
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Picked up this one today. When the float went down I was certain it was a steelie :P
(http://gallery.fishbc.com/albums/album842/2009_02_08_002.sized.jpg)
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Beautiful fish on the jig Biff. Was it clipped, it's hard to tell in the photo? It looks like a male which would make sense as they are the fish that tend to residualize. Congrats.
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Wild fish. Definitly one of the nicest looking fish I've caught in a long time.
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There are a lot of these around this year.... ???
Im beginning to think that the fish are getting smaller, they are all bullet chrome, and that one looks like a Steelhead for sure :-\
Main reasoning behind that is there are no white tipped fins, and the spots pretty much stop after a certain point, also the fact its getting rosy cheeks.
Hopefully Im wrong and just a lot of trout are coming down from the lake or something.....
Maybe they are 1 year Steelhead (like a Steely jack) that are coming back, kind of like all the coho jacks we had around ???
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That's a steelhead.....
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Its a steelhead, possibly a ones of those jack steelheads.
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If you guys are catching a lot more them this season than in the past, this could be good news for next years run. I think Rodney has mentioned that, for salmon, the ratio between the population of jacks and full grown adults of the same birth year is constant. Therefore, if there are lots of jacks around one year compared to past runs, there could be a proportional increase in full size adults showing up the following year. I would imagine that the same principle applies to steelhead. ???
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A little more resident porn.
Here's another angle of the fatty from the other day.
(http://gallery.fishbc.com/albums/album842/2009_02_08_003.sized.jpg)
One from yesterday.
(http://gallery.fishbc.com/albums/album842/2009_02_08_005.sized.jpg)
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That is a beautiful fish Biff. I have caught a few over the years but thats the nicest one I have seen.
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Screw going to the Vedder for steelhead. These guys are way better looking. (Pretty sure that today I re-caught the second fish in the post above)
(http://gallery.fishbc.com/albums/album842/2009_02_08_011.sized.jpg)
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Biffchan
The rainbow you are catching appear to be resident fish that are dropping out of the upper river. While brood stock fishing we catch numerous fish in the 2-4 lb range. They are very
aggressive and put up a good scrape. They would be lots of fun on a light fly rod.
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you think that is a resident rainbow your on glue
LOL..... do you realize at all who you are talking to, and pretty much insulting.
Im pretty sure that buck knows his fish, and if not, then no one does.
They are resident bows... but TECHNICALLY you can't tell what they are.
Steelhead are rainbows and vise versa, you cant tell the difference unless you go down to DNA.
Almost positive that these are definatley resident bows, I have seen a few this year.
The only one, IMO that could be a Steelhead at all, is the one with the gold hue, as that is typical Steelhead colouration.
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So whats the difference in DNA between a Steel and a Rainbow?
My understanding is that they are identical - just have different "ideas" about where they want to live.
But that's just what I've read so please enlighten me if I've got it wrong ;-)
cheers,
Paul.
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Hey Paul,
There was a recent thread on one of the other local sites that quoted from a scientific paper saying that there is no genetic variation shown between these two fish's life history and types. Any genetic differences that were found were associated with geography. Interestingly the Master's thesis that my wife has just completed was very similar except that she was looking at 2 "different" species of Freshwater Mussel. Indeed after 2 years of study her work showed that the amount of genetic variation found in her samples was not enough to call these 2 mussels, separate species. And the only differences found related to their geography. There is a certain amount of genetic difference (sequence divergence) allowed before one can say they are separate species. An analogy I tend to use is that my mitochondrial DNA is slightly different to a Black african person, however we are both still human beings!
I have interpreted the regulations as reading that if you catch a "Rainbow" from a river and it is over 50cm, then it is a Steelhead. Please correct me if I have misunderstood this.
Paul, I'll give you a ring later and you can talk to Lily who can describe this better than I ever could. :)
Interesting stuff, sure sounds like more studies need to be carried out to discover any more information.
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2 small ones for me. 1 hit a single egg and the last hit a small blade.
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Hi David,
yeah we need too speak,
how come this thread goes dead when I ask for facts about the difference?
"Every Day" - please tell me about the difference in DNA?
I feel there are too many "anglers myths" on this subject - and "facts" that get passed down generations and between anglers are nothing more than popular opinion that is not based on fact.
I'm just asking for clarification as lots have opinions but I don't see anything concrete to back these ideas up?
Try researching the difference between "strain" and "species" and "sub-strain" and you quickly realise the only place it exists generally is in the opinions of scientists/biologists - as mostly there is way of no genetically separating them.
This is illustrated perfectly in "Brook Trout by Nick Karas (2002) " Which if you have the patience to read, often ends up in ongoing arguments/discussions about the difference between species, strain and sub-strain, and the genetic differences, or lack of them.
I came to the conclusion that it mattered little, if a fish was of 1 strain or an another, as this differentiation only existed in the mind of those studying the subject. It is a difference of opinion between "scientists", rather than a genetic difference. I personally dismiss this as a range of subjective views without any real science behind it. It doesn’t mean studying the same species with different behaviours is worthless, far from it. But to try and then “define” these differences in terms of strain, or sub strain becomes a futile exercise in my opinion
Because there are simply no criteria laid down, in science or nature to make such differentiations!
In which case why worry about it? And why try and claim you know the difference?
cheers,
Paul.
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I've only been part of genetics testing with bull trout, but I'm assuming it is about the same with steelhead. In order to get any real data, you have to have data on record already. This means that you need historical records of documented residents to be able to make the connection. This is fairly tough to do in a system without any physical barriers and located so close to salt water. Really, all the fish has to do establish anadromy is smell salt water once in its lifetiem. You need telemetry data to track these fish thoughout their lifetime to know for sure if it's anadromous. Not to knock BC's fisheries folks, but because they are so hamstrung, I seriously doubt they have that kind of budget to do these studies. In the end, who cares...Those are beautiful, healthy fish. Great photos and a great experience. Also looks like they were released to see another day.
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The discussion of "What is a fish species?" seems so simple but it is in fact a very complex topic that one can look into the molecular genetic level for answers. Before even discussing whether two organisms are the same species or two different ones, we should be looking at the definition of species first.
The general definition of species is a group of organisms that can interbreed and produce offsprings that are fertile.
If you take a rainbow trout and breed it with a steelhead, can their offsprings survive and reproduce? If they can, then it indicates that the genetic differences are not wide enough to differentiate them as two different species. Steelhead is one of many life histories that exist in Oncorhynchus mykiss. It is an adaptation strategy designed to ensure the populations survival. These are known as ecotypes, which are variations within a species that have specific small differences in morphology (size and shape), life history that suit regions where they inhabit.
There are many examples of post-glacial changes within species.
Six populations of white sturgeons exist in British Columbia. All are classified as one species, but they differ in size, colour, body shape and migratory pattern due to the environment that they live in.
Kokanee and sockeye salmon is another prime example.
These populations are divided by a temporal, physical or geographical barriers. When the division takes place is long enough, then speciation occurs, which means two populations are no longer similar enough to be one species, but are now two distinct species. Many examples of this can be found in species in the Great Lakes and Hudson Bay.
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lower, middle and upper Columbia River has 3 separate DPS's of Steelhead.
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Peter works for the hatchery...
They get a permit from the BC Government, and they go to collect whatever brood stock they need... And that fish you caught has become a resident rainbow; residualized smolts should be killed as they compete with wild Salmonids for food resources.
Cheers,
Nicole
Hey Buck not sure who you are but according to everyday your some kind of fishing guru,i would like to know do you broodstock catcher guys get to fish in the upper where its closed, to catch broodstock is that where your talking about catching all these resident rainbow? I have never ever caught a resident rainbow on the flow ever ,mind you my buddy says he caught a small 13 in clipped rainbow a week ago in the canal.
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residualized smolts should be killed as they compete with wild Salmonids for food resources.
Residualized hatchery (adipose clipped) smolts... :)
The Chilliwack River steelhead broodstock collection program has a quota of 70 adult fish per season (35 of each gender). Usually volunteer broodstock anglers who fish within the fishing boundaries are able to collect all 70 fish by the end of the season for the hatchery, so there isn't a need to go out of bound to collect additional fish for broodstocks.
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Washington State has record of a resident rainbow population, separate from saltwater by a physical barrier for more than 90 years, smolting and becoming anadromous. The barrier was removed and a few years after the barrier was gone, they took off to see what jellyfish look like. I'm not sure how many went out, but TMK, it was roughly 40%. So....with that said, even genetics testing will not guarantee that once a resident, always a resident.
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That's not surprising if one hypothesizes that staying small and feeding in the river, or smoltification to grow big in the ocean are different life strategies of a fish species (rainbow trout). Perhaps steelhead offsprings choose to residualize if conditions for smoltification are not ideal (water level, abundance of food to reach size of smoltification, geographical barrier, predation), so their survival is ensured. Perhaps generations later, offsprings of rainbow trout decide to smoltify and become steelhead again. It is a fascinating subject in my opinion, perfet as a thesis for some graduate student if it is not done already. One might even want to stretch it by suggesting resident coastal rainbow trout are jacks of steelhead, since they are predominantly male. It'd be interesting to find out if there are interbreeding happening between resident rainbow and steelhead.
In Europe, large sea trout (searun brown trout) are mostly female (5 to 20lb) while resident brown trout in creeks are mostly male (<5lb). The two populations interbreed.
Washington State has record of a resident rainbow population, separate from saltwater by a physical barrier for more than 90 years, smolting and becoming anadromous. The barrier was removed and a few years after the barrier was gone, they took off to see what jellyfish look like. I'm not sure how many went out, but TMK, it was roughly 40%. So....with that said, even genetics testing will not guarantee that once a resident, always a resident.
The same relationship has been seen in the last couple of years with Coquitlam River's kokanee and sockeye salmon.