Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Randog on September 08, 2007, 09:48:50 AM
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So I thought I’d spend a few hours yesterday afternoon targeting Pinks on the Squamish River. I was looking forward to a change of scenery from the Fraser Valley. When I arrived at the Squamish I found the water clarity to be that of the Fraser with only 1 – 1 ½ ft. of visibility, not optimum so I headed over to the Mamquam river to check things out. So after gearing up and a quick jaunt to the rivers edge I was quite glad to see lot’s of Pinks jumping everywhere, however, my happiness turned to anger as I watched the atrocities unfold before me. I could not believe my eyes when I saw how these so called “fishermen” where snagging these spawning Pinks right off their redds in less than 18” of water. My immediate attention was drawn to the far side of the river to see a “Spey Fisher” that couldn’t roll cast if his life depended on it, was overhand casting his sink tip Spey line into the spawning redds and dragging his hook across the backs of the fish and giving a sharp yank as he snagged male fish on every retrieve, played the fish to exhaustion then proceeded to pull the fish up on shore and let it flop around on the rocks and sand while he placed his valued spey rod upright against some trees then returned to the sand encrusted fish, placed his knee on the fish while he removed his fly then proceeded to give the fish a “love tap” back into the river with his wading boot. I watched this guy and his “lack luster” release technique for several fish, and then I had to move further downstream as I could feel my blood beginning to boil.
As I walked downstream towards the mouth of the river I came across an elderly gentleman I would guess in his early seventies, wearing black rubber gum boots and he too was a “fly fisher” using an old fiberglass fly rod, he was playing a fish which I watched for at least 15 minuets when he pulled his fish way up on the beach he discovered it was snagged in the tail, he had almost the same release technique as the” spey guy” only difference was the old fly fisher grabbed the fish by the tail and “chucked” it back in the water! I watched this old guy perform the same snag and release method on three more fish and after he release the third fish I walked by him shaking my head in disgust and within ear shot said one word out loud “PATHETIC”.
The one that really got me fumed was a fellow in his early twenties who showed up with his trout rod and coffee grinder set up, tackle box and backpack. This guy walked right over and into to the spawning bed and started tossing out a big huge spoon and was snagging fish on every cast while he stood in the middle of the spawning beds. The first fish he snagged was a big humped back male which he pulled up on the sand and rocks and let it flop around while he proceeded to rummage through his back pack to find his camera, when he returned to the fish lying on the beach, he reached down and grabs the fish through the gills and was trying to focus his camera for the “shot of a life time” and proceeded to drop the fish on the rocks, fumbles with his camera for a little bit longer then picks up the fish by the gills again, holds the fish out at arms length, gets the shot then throws the fish back in the river and it floats dead downstream!
I witnessed at least 10 more of these acts of mayhem and just plain could not believe that people actually believe these practices are acceptable. I don’t want to play “River Sheriff”, especially when I fuming mad, but where is all the enforcement? Needless to say I didn’t have an enjoyable afternoon. >:(
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it's due to efforts like you watched that there is now a push by the local SFAB in squamish to get the mamquam closed to all fishing when the pinks return. Sad really that it has come to this .
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Yes, I have seen similar scenes at this spot over the years. >:(
It is my experience that whenever salmon are thick and easy to catch (pinks or chums on the mamquam, chums and whites on the Vedder, or Sockeye on the Fraser) you get these sort of "bumble shows" as you describe them.
Note that you described two guys "fly fishing" and one guy "spinning". Hard to blame this stuff on BBing or the Sockeye fishery.
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Having no salmon river experience I've often wondered what the fair/sporting approach is to fishing a river that is chock full of spawning salmon is. Are there pockets of active fish among the spawning beds, or is there a general rule to move up or down stream? Or should you skip the river section entirely, move to another body of water?
I stick to trout fishing, but I talk to friends who salmon fish and tend to just chuck a line out when they see a bunch of activity - I will pass along any advice.
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Having no salmon river experience I've often wondered what the fair/sporting approach is to fishing a river that is chock full of spawning salmon is. Are there pockets of active fish among the spawning beds, or is there a general rule to move up or down stream? Or should you skip the river section entirely, move to another body of water?
In areas that are opened to fishing, there are no rules that control whether you can fish a section where fish are spawning or not. Due to this, it is very difficult to enforce the violations that Randog witnessed. Our coastal streams do have area closures where most of the salmon are spawning (eg. very upstream of the Chilliwack River, etc), but some fish could be found spawning in sections where new fish are moving in. It really comes down to being informed and personal choices. If an angler encounters numerous catches of spawning fish, then it is best to move to another area to prevent further harrassment. If an angler is finding him or herself foul hooking fish too often, then it maybe a good idea to adjust the techniques.
There should be additional regulations implemented on catch and release systems, where fish can not be out of the water for more than 5 seconds at a time. I believe in the State of Washington, the law on keeping fish in the water is even more strict then this suggestion. Currently, proper catch and release is simply a recommendation. Until it is defined properly, people will continue dragging fish to shore, causing unnecessary deaths, and enforcement officers would not be able to do much about it.
Randog's observations are the reason that I have not been back to that section of the river for a few years now.
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This is why we are trying to deal with this issue Randog.
Unfortunately it is all part and parcel of the way a lot of people want to capture a fish these days. Sorry that you had to experience this on your day on the flow, not a pleasant experience. Like Rodney this is one reason I have been going to river systems where they donot and cannot work the water this way.
Thanks for the info as well as it will be used in further meeting we are having shortly.
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It's really unfortunate but these occurrences are becoming more common every year. :(
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I know it's been suggested in the past, but maybe it's high time that an introductory to fishing course is put in place. I know this wont alleviate all of the problems, but it may be a good starting point. ???
Basic Rules:
1 - Please don't fish over the spawning beds, let the fish do "their thing"
2 - Please don't walk on the spawning beds as this will crush any deposited eggs left by the fish.
3 - If you snag a few fish in the back, tail etc... Move to another spot or change your technique.
4 - Please keep all fish in the water while releasing them, they don't like being left on the shore so sand can get in their gills.
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So I thought I’d spend a few hours yesterday afternoon targeting Pinks on the Squamish River. I was looking forward to a change of scenery from the Fraser Valley. When I arrived at the Squamish I found the water clarity to be that of the Fraser with only 1 – 1 ½ ft. of visibility, not optimum so I headed over to the Mamquam river to check things out. So after gearing up and a quick jaunt to the rivers edge I was quite glad to see lot’s of Pinks jumping everywhere, however, my happiness turned to anger as I watched the atrocities unfold before me. I could not believe my eyes when I saw how these so called “fishermen” where snagging these spawning Pinks right off their redds in less than 18” of water. My immediate attention was drawn to the far side of the river to see a “Spey Fisher” that couldn’t roll cast if his life depended on it, was overhand casting his sink tip Spey line into the spawning redds and dragging his hook across the backs of the fish and giving a sharp yank as he snagged male fish on every retrieve, played the fish to exhaustion then proceeded to pull the fish up on shore and let it flop around on the rocks and sand while he placed his valued spey rod upright against some trees then returned to the sand encrusted fish, placed his knee on the fish while he removed his fly then proceeded to give the fish a “love tap” back into the river with his wading boot. I watched this guy and his “lack luster” release technique for several fish, and then I had to move further downstream as I could feel my blood beginning to boil.
As I walked downstream towards the mouth of the river I came across an elderly gentleman I would guess in his early seventies, wearing black rubber gum boots and he too was a “fly fisher” using an old fiberglass fly rod, he was playing a fish which I watched for at least 15 minuets when he pulled his fish way up on the beach he discovered it was snagged in the tail, he had almost the same release technique as the” spey guy” only difference was the old fly fisher grabbed the fish by the tail and “chucked” it back in the water! I watched this old guy perform the same snag and release method on three more fish and after he release the third fish I walked by him shaking my head in disgust and within ear shot said one word out loud “PATHETIC”.
The one that really got me fumed was a fellow in his early twenties who showed up with his trout rod and coffee grinder set up, tackle box and backpack. This guy walked right over and into to the spawning bed and started tossing out a big huge spoon and was snagging fish on every cast while he stood in the middle of the spawning beds. The first fish he snagged was a big humped back male which he pulled up on the sand and rocks and let it flop around while he proceeded to rummage through his back pack to find his camera, when he returned to the fish lying on the beach, he reached down and grabs the fish through the gills and was trying to focus his camera for the “shot of a life time” and proceeded to drop the fish on the rocks, fumbles with his camera for a little bit longer then picks up the fish by the gills again, holds the fish out at arms length, gets the shot then throws the fish back in the river and it floats dead downstream!
I witnessed at least 10 more of these acts of mayhem and just plain could not believe that people actually believe these practices are acceptable. I don’t want to play “River Sheriff”, especially when I fuming mad, but where is all the enforcement? Needless to say I didn’t have an enjoyable afternoon. >:(
you know what we should start doing is filming people doing this, then posting the videos, then maybe people will see this and change there ways ??? ??? kinda like big brother is watching ;)
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I saw that "spey" guy a couple weeks ago, not a clue what he was doing and gives every true spey fisherman a bad name...
But YOU do need to say something...You don't have to do it in anger if that isn't your approach but you can't bitch if you don't say anything either...
I've seen guys fly fishing drag um up on the beach and release them the same as you describe...I have yelled out, "This is a no rention fishery, Release the fish in the water or you'll kill them".... This normally gets other guys around yelling the same thing...Most of the time the guys have no idea of what they are doing and the next one you'll see them get them in close but release them in the water...
If you don't make an effort to say something IMHO you have no grounds to bitch...
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Same old, same old. Ban all types of fishing if you want but it would be just as easy to fine the losers for not releasing fish properly and trying to snag, as in snagery fish by fly fishing. So much for the debate on bottom bouncing when you can snag with a fly or anything. I would like to see just how: "This is why we are trying to deal with this issue Randog." looks when reality sets in. ;) People should also try to stop stomping through spawning grounds. Fishing, like shooting fish in a barrel in my opinion.
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I also vitnessed 2 "fishermen" intentionally snagging spawning fish in a foot of water as I was leaving. Pathetic!
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What you are all talking about is "ETHICS"
Have none of you read the Code of Conduct in the Sports Fishing Regulations??
This has been addressed, however as driving some people "DO NOT" follow the law.
I guarantee that the great majority of people reading this "HAVE EXCEEDED THE SPEED LIMIT IN THE LAST WEEK".
So, lets close down the roads to driving???
Does the word hypocrite mean anyting to you?
Having a few special interest groups say that they are upset with a few people so lets close the rivers, is just plain ignorant.
You will never ever get all to do it right, just as driving.
You have to lead by example.
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There would be no point in putting speed limits on the highway without having traffic cops to enforce them and there isn't much point in having fish and game regulations when our governments keep cutting back on the amount of conservation officers. You can't just close the highways because too many people are speeding and you shouldn't be able to just close waters because too many people are breaking the regs. We need governments that will make firm commitments to managing our resources not just to making tax cuts that they claim will have no effects on the services they provide the people. Please let your MLA's and MP's know that you consider the managing of our fish and game a sacred trust handed to them to manage and hand down to the governments that follow them intact and improved. Fishermen and hunters actually show a profit for this province and this country and letting budgetary restraints affect conservation, rehabilitation, and enforcement of our fish and wildlife resources is just short term thinking and cheap vote buying. There are laws against deliberately snagging fish and it should be up to the discretion of the conservation officer to enforce them, if you witness someone using any method to snag fish after fish then he is deliberately snagging, it's that simple. If you can't get a conservation officer to enforce the law try calling the RCMP they are also empowered to enforce fish and game laws and they might cut through the red tape by just reporting what they see.
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Honestly the impact that sport fishermen do is minor compared to the damage done by the commercial fishery. I'm sure our North Atlantic Cod industry in the east coast were not closed due to sport fishing but instead it was due to the government's neglect to the issue and favoring the economic benefits (employment) over the environmental losses. Honestly how many sport fishermen do you think it will take to outfish or snag 1 commercial fishing boat using nets? Honestly i dont think that in my lifetime i can fish/snag or eat as many fish that is caught on 1 commercial fishing boat.
However I do see why people are angry at the fishermen who snag the fishes when they have already reached their spawning point. Seriouesly the fish that make it that far already beat many odds of getting caught by commercial fishing boats/FN fishing nets. But in order to make a large impact the government will need to step in to enforce laws (size of nets so smaller, growing fish do not get caught unintentionally). During my last year in university I did a case study on the Atlantic Cod industry and learned that the government's main object was to maintain employment in their fishery industry. It will be very sad, if our governemnt does not act until the fishery is under serious threat especially after one of our other flourishing fisheries were shut down. To me it's one thing that the government makes a new mistake and another if they are making the same mistake. In the case of BC we have other sources of income including our forestry(not saying that it is good to clearcut), tourism, and etc.
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Ed, in case you missed it I will repeat some facts.
In most circumstances it is not so much about the numbers of fish being taken but by the method being used. This BB method is just a way getting around the snagging of fish as it is no matter how dirty the water is fish can be taken by this method. If the fish were biting the offering there would be no need to use such long leaders.
In my second sentence I would add the recreational sector is now having some effect on the chinook harvest on the Fraser. This year with high and dirty water chinooks were taken in substantial numbers far more than every before when water conditions determined how many were harvested. That was when bar fishing was the major way they were fished for.
One other thing, some people say some of us are trying to get the rivers closed, this is so far from the truth as all we are trying to do is return sport angling to just that. Some just want to cloud the issue with a statement like that. We are anglers too and we donot want to lose opportunities.
Sports angling is now so much a money issue than ever before and that along with ones that lobby through the SFAB against getting into the tackle box are making changes hard to make.
A series of meeting on both sides of the issue will be held before the next season and hopefully it will benefit us all as well as the fish.
Sorry Rodney for entering this debate again as I have tried to refrain from it as much as possible on FWR, instread I have been concentrating on setting up some meetings to deal with this issue.
Hopefully after this year this hot topic will be but to bed for good and we can then go after the speeders on our roads. ;D :D
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In my second sentence I would add the recreational sector is now having some effect on the chinook harvest on the Fraser
Lets be clear here, you have NOTHING to prove this statement other than your personal feelings.
There is NO CONCERN about Chinook at this moment with the acception of early runs.
Sports anglers have had no effect on them as they are through the river before it is opened to sports angling.
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"In most circumstances it is not so much about the numbers of fish being taken but by the method being used. This BB method is just a way getting around the snagging of fish as it is no matter how dirty the water is fish can be taken by this method. If the fish were biting the offering there would be no need to use such long leaders."
Originally, I thought the concern of snagging fish is how we impact the population of the salmon species and not the method being used. To me, netting a fish and snagging a fish are both methods of fishing where the fish is not willingly taking the bait or the "correct" method of fishing. Although i'm not saying that snagging is ok , i'm just saying that there are many other factors which are creating an even larger impact. I was just wondering if there was information available on the quantity of fish taken by sport fishermen, commercial fisheries, and FN fisheries.
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Yes there are and the numbers of Sockeye taken are approx 5 % of the commercial catch.
So all this ranting about the Sports Sector having a real effect is just a load of bull.
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Yes there are and the numbers of Sockeye taken are approx 5 % of the commercial catch.
So all this ranting about the Sports Sector having a real effect is just a load of bull.
Every sector that uses the resource has an impact to one extent or another, that in the end can and will continue to have negative impact on our salmon runs unless each sector of the resource realizes and tries to eliminate ,or at least minimize the negative impact we have on our resource.The bottom line here is that the human race as a whole is to blame for our declining fish stocks in one way or another and if we don't work together towards a common goal there wont be any need for internet forums like FWR because there wont be any fish to talk about.
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I totally agree with Searun on that all sectors must work together in order to make an impact. Even if sport fishing was banned, commercial fishing itself will fish at a rate where death>birth of fish species. Honestly we've destroyed so many natural habitats and basically transformed the whole concept of having abundant resources into economic value.
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Yes there are and the numbers of Sockeye taken are approx 5 % of the commercial catch.
So all this ranting about the Sports Sector having a real effect is just a load of bull.
Every sector that uses the resource has an impact to one extent or another, that in the end can and will continue to have negative impact on our salmon runs unless each sector of the resource realizes and tries to eliminate ,or at least minimize the negative impact we have on our resource.The bottom line here is that the human race as a whole is to blame for our declining fish stocks in one way or another and if we don't work together towards a common goal there wont be any need for internet forums like FWR because there wont be any fish to talk about.
I agree, but the effects of the other groups is way beyond what the Sports Anglers is.
The sports anglers as a group put back in a huge way to the fisherys, one cannot say that about the other groups.
THe other groups DO NOT want to work with the Sports Anglers as they are all about the $.
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Old black Dog ,I agree with what you are saying ,its just like everything else in our society today,its all about the money and the bottom line,take ,take, take, at all costs to fill our pockets until un repairable damage is done and everyone is left scrambling wondering what to do about the end result.There is no quick fix for our current dilemmas but we need to do as much as we can to have a positive impact on the resource regardless of what other users do or don't do and hopefully in time some of the problems you speak of will be dealt with in the best interest of the fish.as much as the recreational fisherman puts back into the resource,it is not without its problems and blemishes,just look at what goes on on some of our local waters,its enough to make me puke,perfect example the fall fishery on the vedder.
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Old black Dog ,I agree with what you are saying ,its just like everything else in our society today,its all about the money and the bottom line,take ,take, take, at all costs to fill our pockets until un repairable damage is done and everyone is left scrambling wondering what to do about the end result.There is no quick fix for our current dilemmas but we need to do as much as we can to have a positive impact on the resource regardless of what other users do or don't do and hopefully in time some of the problems you speak of will be dealt with in the best interest of the fish.as much as the recreational fisherman puts back into the resource,it is not without its problems and blemishes,just look at what goes on on some of our local waters,its enough to make me puke,perfect example the fall fishery on the vedder.
Don't give up as many are trying the best they can to improve things not only fishing wise but cleaning up our rivers and limiting gravel removal on some rivers that destroy fish habitat. Also remember it is only a small amount of people in the whole picture of things that are not heeding FOC's request not to BB. Many of these donot even know of the request.
Many that BB before have seen the writing on the wall and have given it up. Sports shops here in Chilliwack are now not selling BB gear and are even advising against it. Gains are being made. It will be interesting to see how the SFAB deals with it as well at their next meeting.
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Honestly, we are more vulnerable because we all love fishing and the government knows that they can push us around easier!! >:(
They know we'll still be around for the next season even if they close the fraser but when commercial fisheries lose money, people get fired and the government has to deal with higher unemployment issues.
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Another 20 year infestation provided by your Provincial Government. Even after there was a committee formed by them that recommended no new farms. So thats the support were getting for the wild fish, replace them with farms. Go ahead and make little points about sport fishing and the damage it causes. Or stay focused on the real problems that affect the fish. These pens have wiped out the wild fish in every place they've been.
B.C. fish farm salmon escape
Canadian Press
September 6, 2007 at 4:00 PM EDT
Ashousat, B.C. — Native fishing boats are dropping seine nets around a Clayoquot Sound salmon farm following a harvesting accident that tore a one-metre hole in a net pen Tuesday.
Alistair Haughton, deputy managing director of Mainstream Canada, said trawlers from Ahousat, B.C., are working a one-kilometre radius around the company's Saranac farm in an effort to catch any Atlantic salmon that may have escaped.
“We're rounding up as many as we can get our hands on,” said Mr. Haughton. “I'd like to have five to six boats anyway.”
Mr. Haughton said the company won't know how many Atlantic salmon may have escaped from the farm until at least Friday morning.
Mainstream Canada is a subsidiary of Cermaq, a Norwegian-based salmon-farming company.
Located in the traditional territory of the Ahousaht First Nation, the Saranac farm holds 10, 30-by-30-metre pens, each about 15 metres deep, and protected by an inner net, known as a containment or grower net, and an outer net, known as a predator net.
The company grows Atlantic salmon.
Mr. Haughton said accident occurred during a routine harvest after workers accidentally tore a hole in one pen's containment nets with a shackle.
A worker saw Atlantic salmon swimming between the containment and predator net.
Mr. Haughton said workers immediately implemented the company's escape-response plan, informed the provincial government and dropped secondary nets inside the containment pen to plug the hole.
The company called in divers who repaired the hole, which he estimated was about one metre in diameter, he said.
Mr. Haughton said the net pen held about 20,000 Atlantic salmon, and the company will know how many escaped after it counts how many fish remain inside the containment and predator nets.
He said the company is currently dropping gillnets inside the pens.
“There's quite a few thousands still in the pen.
“It's really an unfortunate incident because we have such an excellent record.”
Environmentalists, however, criticized the company and the provincial government for not following through on recommendations made by a provincial government committee to move towards closed containment farms.
“It's another example of the inherent risks of farming salmon in open nets in the ocean,” said Maryjka Mychajlowycz, a campaigner with the Friends of Clayoquot Sound.
“It's companies playing Russian roulette with wild salmon for corporate profit and this is unacceptable.”
“This should be another wake-up call to the B.C. government.”
This past April, the Clayoquot Sound Central Region Board approved a 20-year lease for the Saranac site and eight other Mainstream farms in Clayoquot Sound.
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Troutbreath,i hear what you are saying and agree with you regarding the problems with fish farms and yes they need to be dealt with in a appropriate fashion as do other major issues,but this does not mean that the issues that need to be addressed with the rec fisheries should be ignored,there are many problems that plague our resource ,all of which need to be dealt with.There is no easy solution to the problems but we as recreational fisherman should be looking to cleanup our act before we can even think about taking on big business.
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I cant speek for others but for myself the snagging issue has never been about the numbers of fish being caught.
But how they are being caught and the ugliness it has brought to SPORT fishing.
People keep saying that its not the sport fisher that is wiping out stocks and i do agree with that but that doesnt make snagging fish acceptible.
Lets control what we can and let the Government deal with the net issues.
I should have read Searuns comment first as i see we pretty much said the same thing. :D