Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sinaran on August 12, 2007, 06:12:45 PM
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Spoke to a fisheries manager who has been managing the southern BC and Fraser river for the past 25 years today about the sockeye situation, he gave me enough information to answer all the doubts i had regarding the fishery. There are 3 major reasons why sockeye stock in the Fraser river is stumbling.....
1.: Global warming - the truth that a lot of us already known, and really can't do much about it. As the ocean become warmer, lots of fish migrate up north, thus bringing in numerous amount of predators (eg:makarel, lots of them!!). Most of the predators are very active fish, they are highly motive and tend to consume lots of food. And yes, they feed on the young salmons..
2.: Food source - Sockeye's major food source, the Plankton, has been disappearing in the ocean in recent years.
3.: Mysterious spawning ground fatality - He told me that the research team found this stunning problem. Lots of sockeye dead not long after arriving to their spawninig ground..most of them died before they spawned. And the lab coundn't find out why..
He also mentioned that the return in the next 3 years or so would be lowest in in years too. And if problems are not solved, we may see the sockeye run on the Fraser river extinguished in 30 years.
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I've talked to many an angler recently, and the common thought is that sockeye will become pretty much extinct in our lifetimes...
Quite the legacy for people's children...
:(
Nicole
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Next will be the Dam on the Fraser.
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Yep, instead of collectively working on environmental problems that is dwarf what people continue to bicker about, we will sit and watch it happen.
The sooner the Fraser River sockeye salmon runs extinct, the happier people will be. Why much happier? Some will finally have their head pulled out of their rectal cavity, smell the fresh air and see the bigger picture. Others will have more room on the river to fish. A few decades from now, looking forward to that indeed.
There are only two reasons that so much time, money and energy are spent on one fish species - economical and self interest. Meanwhile, world-wide extinction of "less important" species continues at the largest scale in history without even being noticed.
It's a funny species. Be a flosser, oops, I'm sorry, snagger, or an angler, somehow a perfectly normal individual can sometimes turn into a nasty, inconsiderate, backstabbing prick whenever the term "sockeye" is brought up. Some psych grad student can really do up a good thesis based on this phenomenon.
Kill them all and start the celebration. They won't be missed, by me anyway. Presevation of an evolutionary product since glaciation? Ha! As if that's what has been on people's mind.
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Well said Rodney. Folks around here can't wait for the next species to go extinct so they won't have to mitigate for them when they develope their land.
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I'm looking forward to the human species becoming extinct....
We seriously do not deserve this planet.
???
Nicole
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Anywhere you have crowd, then mob mentality appears. Try to budge into any meat holes in any rivers for any fish species, you will get nasty reaction. Try force your way into Vedder Limit Hole, Tamahi Rapids, Lickman, Chehalis hatchery run, Bible Camp run, Cap Cable Pool etc., you will get the same response from the crowd like any crowded Fraser bars. Try to force your way into a crowded bar-fishing bar, you will get the same unfriendly treatment. What has it to do with Sockeyes? It will happen to pink hot spots too right now, or the Cap coho at the mouth when the fishery is productive. So good luck sockeyes. I hope they survive nature and greed of man who turns them into a $$$$ machine under whatever pretense of profit or tradition. :(
I say DFO should get rid of those massive killing machines/nets from sockeyes if they want to save the species. Let those who want to eat a fish catch it with their one rod and one hook, like our fore-fathers did, then there will be some chance for any fish, not just sockeyes ;)
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yay lets dam it so we can finally have bass the best game fish of all, in all our river after the salmon die out :)
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Lots of concern for sockeye but little said about the poor return of chinook. Snaggers and drift nets still taking whats left over. Should be lots of jet boats for sale in a couple of years, if you could find someone to buy them. Four strikes and your out--- coho, sockeye , chinook and finally sturgeon.
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No worries, there'll always be chums and pinks for people to toss around and kick back into the river.
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I've talked to many an angler recently, and the common thought is that sockeye will become pretty much extinct in our lifetimes...
Quite the legacy for people's children...
:(
Nicole
Just add it to the list
extinct or endangered:
# African Elephant
# African Wild Asss
# African Wild Dog
# American Alligator
# American White Pelican
# Asian Elephant
# Asian Lion
# Atlantic Salmon
# Black Lemur
# Black-footed Ferret
# Blue Whale
# Bowhead Whale
# Carolina Parakeet
# Cheetah
# Chimpanzee
# Coelacanth
# Common Green Turtle
# Dodo
# Eastern Cougar
# Eskimo Curlew
# Fin Whale
# Flightless Cormorant
# Gaur
# Gavial
# Giant Anteater
# Giant Armadillo
# Giant Panda
# Gorilla
# Great Auk
# Grey Whale
# Grizzly
# Humpback Whale
# Imperial Amazon
# Indian Rhinoceros
# Jaguar
# Crested Ibis
# Kagu
# Kakapo
# Kemp's Ridley
# Komodo Dragon
# Leatherback Turtle
# Leopard
# Loggerhead Turtle
# Mediterranean Monk Seal
# Moas
# Mountain Gorilla
# Orangutan
# Passenger Pigeon
# Philippine Eagle
# Piping Plover
# Pronghorn
# Przewalski's Horse
# Pygmy Hippopotamus
# Sea Otter
# Sei Whale
# Shortnose Sturgeon
# Snow Leopard
# Takahe
# Tapirs
# Tiger
# Trumpeter Swan
# Vancouver Island Marmot
# West Indian Manatee
# White Rhinoceros
# Whooping Crane
# Yak
And if you really want to get edumucated with a more comprehensive list including plants (which is really staggering considering how many of our important medical and recreational drugs come from plants) - check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_species
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I've talked to many an angler recently, and the common thought is that sockeye will become pretty much extinct in our lifetimes...
Quite the legacy for people's children...
:(
Nicole
Just add it to the list
extinct or endangered:
# African Elephant
# African Wild Asss
# African Wild Dog
# American Alligator
# American White Pelican
# Asian Elephant
# Asian Lion
# Atlantic Salmon
# Black Lemur
# Black-footed Ferret
# Blue Whale
# Bowhead Whale
# Carolina Parakeet
# Cheetah
# Chimpanzee
# Coelacanth
# Common Green Turtle
# Dodo
# Eastern Cougar
# Eskimo Curlew
# Fin Whale
# Flightless Cormorant
# Gaur
# Gavial
# Giant Anteater
# Giant Armadillo
# Giant Panda
# Gorilla
# Great Auk
# Grey Whale
# Grizzly
# Humpback Whale
# Imperial Amazon
# Indian Rhinoceros
# Jaguar
# Crested Ibis
# Kagu
# Kakapo
# Kemp's Ridley
# Komodo Dragon
# Leatherback Turtle
# Leopard
# Loggerhead Turtle
# Mediterranean Monk Seal
# Moas
# Mountain Gorilla
# Orangutan
# Passenger Pigeon
# Philippine Eagle
# Piping Plover
# Pronghorn
# Przewalski's Horse
# Pygmy Hippopotamus
# Sea Otter
# Sei Whale
# Shortnose Sturgeon
# Snow Leopard
# Takahe
# Tapirs
# Tiger
# Trumpeter Swan
# Vancouver Island Marmot
# West Indian Manatee
# White Rhinoceros
# Whooping Crane
# Yak
And if you really want to get edumucated with a more comprehensive list including plants (which is really staggering considering how many of our important medical and recreational drugs come from plants) - check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_species
Did they not want to add sturgeon to this list at one point.
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I have a unique idea for helping the fisheries on all our rivers. If I recall salmon have a 4 year life cycle, If the government put a ban on salmon fishing in rivers by anyone for 8 years we should be able to get a better idea of what is really happening to the fish.If the stocks start to rebound we know its overfishing, it they continue to decline we know its a global ecological problem. I kind of think that salmon fishing once they hit the river should not be allowed (even though I enjoy it) as no matter what spin we put on it, we are removing fish that have had a hard battle just to survive and get there from reaching their final goal. If we want more fish we need to stop killing them until the fishery rebounds and if it doesn't rebound then they are going extinct and we shouldn't be fishing em anyway. And as a side note catch and release is not an option because there is way to high a mortality rate with this style of fishing. I always have to shake my head at the people that look down their beaks at someone who bonks a fish for diner then proceeds to brag about how they caught and released 10 that day........guess what they killed more that day than the bonker did.
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I like your last few sentances. I too feel in certain circumstances what you say is true esspecially on fish that have a long migration run to complete, after being caught and released.
In the case of steelhead that are in their natal river waiting to ripen and spawn catch and release apperas to be ok.
A two year radio tagging study we did on the Chilliwack Vedder a number of years ago proved a very high percentage of fish after being caught and tagged completed this stage of their life.
I should pull out the summary paper and get the correct figures for you.
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I'd be happy to put my rod away for 4 years to save the salmon on rivers... I doubt other user groups would be willing to do the same.
Cheers,
Nicole
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I'd be happy to put my rod away for 4 years to save the salmon on rivers... I doubt other user groups would be willing to do the same.
Cheers,
Nicole
Never going to happen too much money in play. Plus, I think it would take cooperation at the government level between Alaska, BC, Washington, Oregon and California in order for any conservation effort to even have the chance to be effective. The best thing, I believe, for the salmon would be a coast wide ban for a few years in order to rebuild stocks. That will never happen though. One day all we will have left is Chum
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So, our elected government body thinks there is a problem with returning Sockeye. Great, lets shut down the fishery to everyone BUT FN. What a joke. Want it to work?... Shut the river down period. No C&R , no nothing, at least for a couple cycles.
And Chris, If C&R kills one Steelhead... is that acceptable, if Steelhead returns are in trouble? Did your study factor in how many millions of fertilized eggs get smashed every year while the fish chasers stomp all over the spawning beds? I think not. You are no more a conservationist than any of the Sockeye flossers. Your just a little better than most in skewing your actions and words to make everyone believe you are part of the solution. The solution is... shut down the bluddy fishing for a few years period, and stay out of the rivers.
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Never going to happen too much money in play. Plus, I think it would take cooperation at the government level between Alaska, BC, Washington, Oregon and California in order for any conservation effort to even have the chance to be effective. The best thing, I believe, for the salmon would be a coast wide ban for a few years in order to rebuild stocks. That will never happen though. One day all we will have left is Chum
yep, you're totally right... We're doomed.
Salmon farmers must be LOVING this!
:(
Nicole
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And Chris, If C&R kills one Steelhead... is that acceptable, if Steelhead returns are in trouble? Did your study factor in how many millions of fertilized eggs get smashed every year while the fish chasers stomp all over the spawning beds? I think not. You are no more a conservationist than any of the Sockeye flossers. Your just a little better than most in skewing your actions and words to make everyone believe you are part of the solution. The solution is... shut down the bluddy fishing for a few years period, and stay out of the rivers.
Actually, the Vedder is closed to angling during that sensitive time. Steelhead spawn from late april to June in the upper river, up into the permenantly closed area. Trampling would not be a problem.
Cheers,
Nicole
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Yea I know the Vedder is the centre of the universe. It has enhancement. Unlike many other systems in the province. Are you trying to tell me no wild Steelhead eggs get smashed during May? C'mon! Let's just leave the poor little devils all alone for a few years and let them fully recover? The less man meddles in these things the better sometimes, wouldn't you agree?
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Yea I know the Vedder is the centre of the universe. It has enhancement. Unlike many other systems in the province. Are you trying to tell me no wild Steelhead eggs get smashed during May? C'mon! Let's just leave the poor little devils all alone for a few years and let them fully recover? The less man meddles in these things the better sometimes, wouldn't you agree?
Well in May the veddar is fly fishing only and I don't think that there are many people fly fishing and june is a complete closure. I think the eggs are pretty safe. I for one do think that Chris is part of the solution as he is one of many doing work for the hatchery catching their stock as well as countless hours on the river that does not even include carrying a rod but a plastic bag replacing the ones he set up before for people to put garbage in or the countless hours organizing clean ups.
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"Well in May the veddar is fly fishing only and I don't think that there are many people fly fishing and june is a complete closure. I think the eggs are pretty safe. I for one do think that Chris is part of the solution as he is one of many doing work for the hatchery catching their stock as well as countless hours on the river that does not even include carrying a rod but a plastic bag replacing the ones he set up before for people to put garbage in or the countless hours organizing clean ups."
Like I said, It has enhancement. All the work and personal time that goes into it... better for the fish? Or someones personal agenda?
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Try to keep from turning a productive debate into a personal attack. When I see people doing things to the best of their abilities to maintain and support our fishing heritage I give them Kudos not condemnation. From what I have seen from lurking on these forums for the past 2 years Chris does more than his, mine and your share of trying to protect our fishing heritage. So again when you turn it into a personal attack you lose your credibility in a debate. And when i said shut down fishing on all the rivers I did mean the FN fisheries also they have a huge impact on the stability of the salmon runs in our rivers. To see them out with there nets and complaining about the lack of fish should be an indicator to them to pull the nets in and sit down with the biologists and try to figure out what to do so that next year they wont be complaining that there is only one fish in the net.
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Yea I know the Vedder is the centre of the universe. It has enhancement. Unlike many other systems in the province. Are you trying to tell me no wild Steelhead eggs get smashed during May? C'mon! Let's just leave the poor little devils all alone for a few years and let them fully recover? The less man meddles in these things the better sometimes, wouldn't you agree?
Well the report is based on a study conducted on the Vedder...
There you go.
Nicole
And yes I agree with you, but my opinion is a bit stronger. The sooner that humans die off, the better this planet will be...
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Yep, instead of collectively working on environmental problems that is dwarf what people continue to bicker about, we will sit and watch it happen.
The sooner the Fraser River sockeye salmon runs extinct, the happier people will be. Why much happier? Some will finally have their head pulled out of their rectal cavity, smell the fresh air and see the bigger picture. Others will have more room on the river to fish. A few decades from now, looking forward to that indeed.
There are only two reasons that so much time, money and energy are spent on one fish species - economical and self interest. Meanwhile, world-wide extinction of "less important" species continues at the largest scale in history without even being noticed.
It's a funny species. Be a flosser, oops, I'm sorry, snagger, or an angler, somehow a perfectly normal individual can sometimes turn into a nasty, inconsiderate, backstabbing prick whenever the term "sockeye" is brought up. Some psych grad student can really do up a good thesis based on this phenomenon.
Kill them all and start the celebration. They won't be missed, by me anyway. Presevation of an evolutionary product since glaciation? Ha! As if that's what has been on people's mind.
Never has a truer word been uttered. It’s sad but true.
Rodney for president!!!!!
The sadest for me is I know for a fact its going to die, may it be for what evert reason it may, but what do i tell my kids???????????
what happened to pervervation of our resources, thats what us Canadians do, do we? ( Yes im doing my citizenship and that is what they say we should do.)
It will be like the Cod in Atlantic Canada, black and white fotos and TV programs is all that is left, what was blammed for that I ask?
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So, our elected government body thinks there is a problem with returning Sockeye. Great, lets shut down the fishery to everyone BUT FN. What a joke. Want it to work?... Shut the river down period. No C&R , no nothing, at least for a couple cycles.
And Chris, If C&R kills one Steelhead... is that acceptable, if Steelhead returns are in trouble? Did your study factor in how many millions of fertilized eggs get smashed every year while the fish chasers stomp all over the spawning beds? I think not. You are no more a conservationist than any of the Sockeye flossers. Your just a little better than most in skewing your actions and words to make everyone believe you are part of the solution. The solution is... shut down the bluddy fishing for a few years period, and stay out of the rivers.
I am sorry if you take it that way but that is your right to do so. As I am just a volunteer and have nothing to gain from what I do but I just try to make things better for the fish. If I have failed I guess I have to apologize for that. None of us are perfect and I am no different.
Thanks for your point of view that I am sure others may hold as well.
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whoa everybody, goddam hold your horses here, Nicole wants to kill us off, everyone else wants to shut down fishing, jesus open your eyes, its a single year that sockeye havent been as strong as forecasted, last year remember we were open a whole month and the returns were fabulous, this years Coho returns are looking to be amazing for any of the fishers on here that have been on the west coast will atone too, The water levels have been higher this spring and summer and cooler and survial of the summer stocks(spring sockeye) will probably be increased due to larger and cooler flows. The Pinks AGAIN are returning in HUGE numbers for what 4 cycles now??? The sockeye have been decimated by overharvesting in IMHO by commercial and native nets. Without really knowing the numbers that were harvested by unbiased observers, the DFO is now in damage control. So lets look at this picture as a whole and not as piece meal
Cam, Sockeye are down due to ocean conditions that have yet to be resolved. They are still looking for the reason.
Next year will be worse and they already know this.Do not expect to be fishing them on the Fraser next year.
Not a strong run and ocean conditions still to be checked.
Coho are strong and that was projected and it is happening, thank God.
Pinks should be strong in the Fraser, not strong on the ECVI yet and that is a concern.
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Ya DFO sure knows where to deflect the problem. It is the ocean and the climate change, stupid. Nothing to do with the mis-management by their lack of will to enforce their rules on those massive killing nets illegally drifted or placed all along the river by the 'tradition' group. Sockeyes have been available from native sources for a while, has any body from that group been charged? Unless the government has the gut to stand up to that group, no remedy is good enough for the sockeye. :(
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Blah blah blah. If only I get a penny for the same statement I read again, and again, and again, and again.... and again.
<yawn>
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Blah blah blah. If only I get a penny for the same statement I read again, and again, and again, and again.... and again.
<yawn>
Rodney's right, stop complaining about it and form a organization or through a group you belong to and start doing something. Put together a document or something you can present to the government,get an audience with the Federal Standing Committee of Fisheries in Ottawa, get the public support and maybe you can make some changes where others have failed. Once you get a group formed with a mission statement I will donate to your cause.
You sound like the right people to do it and get somewhere with it.
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Look on the bright side Rodney your pike minnow population is multiplying by the thousands! You would rather fish for them than sockeye anyway. So cheer up put a worm on a hook and hit steveston. There should be a few bullheads left.
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SSab nik, care to take on an apprentice? Bass is my next challenge to stay away from all the controversy on Salmon. Not been fishing for weeks to avoid the socs, so it is time to try a new adventure with bass. ;D
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I'm not buying any of this political crap. Dying at sea are they? I wonder if has anything to do with the social disease of the fish farm industry SEA LICE? I would like to see what would happen to all our fish stocks if the fish farms were shut down for 10 years. You can do all the work you want to habitat, close all the fisheries you want, stop develoment, logging, and mining; and still come up with squat if the smolts don't make it past the net pens. Do your homework read the facts on what the fish farm industy has done to the fisheries in every country where they set up shop; then start pointing fingers.
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If the salmon farming industry were shut down all wild salmon would dissapear withing 4-5 years.
Our appetite for salmon would not decrease but the supply of fish would so we would resort to exterminating wild ones.
Those who think that fish farms are a bad thing are sorely mistaken.
I would agree, however, that a different way of farming has to be found to eliminate any danger to wild species.
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Our appetite for salmon would not decrease but the supply of fish would so we would resort to exterminating wild ones.
"Our"?
Perhaps you should speak for yourself - some people change habits. I don't eat as much meat as my father, for example.
But he was a typical stubborn Eastern European who you can't tell anything to.
Times change.
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Our appetite for salmon would not decrease but the supply of fish would so we would resort to exterminating wild ones.
"Our"?
Perhaps you should speak for yourself - some people change habits. I don't eat as much meat as my father, for example.
But he was a typical stubborn Eastern European who you can't tell anything to.
Times change.
Sure a few people change their eating habits, and I am one of them, I eat less meat than my father too, but what's your point?
Are you saying that salmon consumption is decreasing?
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If the salmon farming industry were shut down all wild salmon would dissapear withing 4-5 years.
There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.
Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.
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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/08/15/bc-sockeyeclosure.html
Sockeye closure considered for southern B.C.
Some salmon runs are less than 5% of what was forecast
Last Updated: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 | 3:10 PM PT
The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is considering a total ban on the sockeye salmon fishery in southern British Columbia after fewer salmon are returning to the area than was forecast.
Even the aboriginal ceremonial fishery will be cancelled this year, said Timber Whitehorse, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans spokesperson for the Fraser River Salmon Stock Assessment in Kamloops.
"[The] pre-season forecast was just over 1½ million, and the in-season adjustment is half a million, so just over one-third of the pre-season forecast," Whitehorse said Wednesday.
Fisheries experts suspect two-thirds of the salmon died in the ocean, but why that happened is not clear.
What is clear is that very few fish are returning to the rivers to spawn this summer, said Pat Matthews, spokesperson for the Secwepemc Fisheries Commission.
"Those stocks in the North Thompson and the Shuswap are less than five per cent of what was forecast," said Matthews.
First Nations are supporting a ban on commercial and ceremonial fishing.
"However, we are hoping the Department of Fisheries and Oceans will provide a limited access for food purposes," said Matthews.
Matthews said many native people depend on the fishery for food, so they're asking officials to allow the fishing of 5,000 salmon this year from the Adams River.
The Fraser River is already closed to all commercial fishing. Recreational and native food fishing for sockeye on the Lower Fraser is also closed.
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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/08/15/bc-sockeyeclosure.html
Sockeye closure considered for southern B.C.
Some salmon runs are less than 5% of what was forecast
Last Updated: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 | 3:10 PM PT
Cool, so there's a 5% chance there will be an opening.
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There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.
Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.
Rodney, there is no way that stopping fish farming would not harm wild stocks.
You yourself say that overharvesting is the problem and thats exactly right.
If there is a world demand for 1000 fish a year and there is 800 wild fish allowed to be harvested, where do the other 200 come from?
People that overharvest fish don't throw the fish to the cats. They overharvest them because there is a demand for it.
If the demand wasn't supplemented by farmed fish there would be an even greater pressure on the wild ones.
It's just a matter of risk. In some areas there are no regulations and they can massacre them at will. I think that we are not yet globalized in resource thinking and consumption.
Those people in Alaska we saw an article about are allowed to harvest much more fish then we are because it seems to them that their stocks are ok where in fact its the same fish that comes here. Just because in one particular area they see greater density of sockeye it doesn't mean that the fish is doing ok. I don't know enough about salmon migration but it seems that they all congregate in the north pacific area.
Sockeye have to pass by Alaska regardless of whether their natal streams are in the Fraser basin or Columbia river or Queen Charlotte rivers.
To me this is a simple matter of finding better ways to farm salmon. Without any negative impact on the wild stocks.
The problem right now is that people seem content with the way things are in the farming industry.
All I can say to those who claim to care about salmon is to stop fishing it.
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There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.
Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.
Rodney, there is no way that stopping fish farming would not harm wild stocks.
Ever heard of sea lice? Fish farms ARE harming wild stocks.
Parasitic sea lice killing BC’s wild salmon
http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/2006/10/31/parasitic-sea-lice-killing-bc%E2%80%99s-wild-salmon/
A team of scientists have discovered that parasitic sea lice escaping from salmon farms along BC’s coast are infecting and killing the wild salmon that swim by the farms placed on the salmon’s natural migration routes.
(http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/photos/farmsalmon.jpg)
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There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.
Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.
Rodney, there is no way that stopping fish farming would not harm wild stocks.
Ever heard of sea lice? Fish farms ARE harming wild stocks.
Parasitic sea lice killing BC’s wild salmon
http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/2006/10/31/parasitic-sea-lice-killing-bc%E2%80%99s-wild-salmon/
A team of scientists have discovered that parasitic sea lice escaping from salmon farms along BC’s coast are infecting and killing the wild salmon that swim by the farms placed on the salmon’s natural migration routes.
(http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/photos/farmsalmon.jpg)
AMEN...
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SUPPLY = DEMAND
SUPPLY = FF + WF
where FF = Farmed Fish
WF= Wild Fish
Therefore:
FF + WF = DEMAND
There is a cost associated with FF that we will call FC that takes away from WF (WF-FC).
There is a benefit associated with any reduction in FF that we will call FB that can be added to the supply equation (FF + FB).
So we come up with:
(FF + FB) + (WF - FC) = SUPPLY
Assuming all else equal, if FF=0 then we can see that FB + WF - FC = SUPPLY
If there are no fish farms, then the only way we can tell if supply of wild fish will go up is if FB > FC which is in IMHO inconclusive due to the fact that time is not factored in. Time in the sense of past, present and future. IF the cost of fish farms in the past and present are far greater than any future benefit of no fish farms, then wild fish will probably continue to decline.
So it may not be incorrect to say that eliminating fish farms will hurt wild stock. I think.
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Guys, I know about sea lice and the Alexandra Morton story and I agree that sea lice are a major factor that's killing wild stocks.
That's why we have to find a better way to farm salmon.
Broughton's case was a criminal act by the farming industry and government for which they were never penalized. They coaxed people into telling them where salmon are and they promised not to put farms there. And then they put farms right there.
Itosh, I like your calculation but the only evidence that FB > FC you need is the fact that farming is still going on.
If the costs were higher than the benefits, the industry wouldn't exist.
Of course, we can't quantify the damage on the wild stocks and that's the problem.
I agree on all these points, but my main point is that if the there were no farmed salmon to fill the demand, that demand would be filled by wild salmon, which would be an even harder whack on the wild stocks.
Norway is a monster producer of salmon. A lot of Europeans are eating cheap salmon. If farming stopped, there would be more poaching and poachers would take greater risks to catch more illegal salmon to make money.
I think a major effort should be put into finding a different way to farm salmon.
Or reduce consumption.
And hopefully before all the wild stocks are gone.
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Closed containment seems to be the answer, I hope for some sort of expedience on behalf of government in the matter...
Cheers,
Nicole
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Closed containment seems to be the answer, I hope for some sort of expedience on behalf of government in the matter...
Cheers,
Nicole
Do not expect it from the Province as they are in bed with the Fish Farmers.
DFO is working on this..
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Mr Dog-- and you dont think DFO is in bed with the fish farm industry????????????? :o :o :o :o :o
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Do not expect it from the Provimce as they are in bed with the Fish Farmers.
DFO is working on this..
yep, Stan Hagen should have never been in charge of fisheries... Read the dirty laundry here:
http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/archives/030204_salmon/politics.html
Cheers,
Nicole
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Nicole is right on the money, closed containment.
It's an issue of money and profits.
They have to spend money building pools for closed containment farming and the way they are doing it costs them very little in infrastructure.
So my dear "forumers" remember this next time you vote both federally and provincially!
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I've talked to many an angler recently, and the common thought is that sockeye will become pretty much extinct in our lifetimes...
Quite the legacy for people's children...
:(
Nicole
Just add it to the list
extinct or endangered:
# African Wild Asss
hahahah wild asses
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I flogged the fish farm thing in my newspaper column for a whole year and squat happened! Well not exactly I have it from an inside informant that my name is well known to Fisheries and DFO personal. Has it stopped the lice problem? No! Did the Hida declaring war on the fish farms in the their teritory and destroying a site in Ocean Falls stop the lice problem? No! It got them in the newspapers for a week. Did Rafe leveling his guns at the fish farmers for 4 years make any difference? No! It got him fired fro CKNW.
So now we have had a crash in:
Pink Salmon in the North Coast.
Chum Salmon in the North Coast.
Stealhead In the Thompson.
and now Fraser River Sockeye.
Elsewhere crashes in:
Sea Trout in Ireland & Scotland
Food fish in South America (food for farm fish)
Did you know it take 3 pounds of food fish to produce 1 pound of farmed Atlantic Salmon?
No. Read a copy of "Fat Cats & Dead Fish"!
Fish Farms are the not the answer. If you think they are I challenge you to go fishing Searun Cutthroat. If you can find one!!! count the sea lice!
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keep a close eye on the Gold River fisheries as well. Me thinks DFO has written it off. Not sure how many of you from this site get over to Nootka Sound but Muchalat Inlet, From Hanna Channel right on up muchalat to the Gold is being dotted with net pen fish farms. This started 4 years ago and it makes me sick. You can't blame Luna the whale for killing off the stocks anymore, he's long dead now..... but our provincial government will take over and continue to contribute to the decline of sensitive stocks in the marine approach to the Gold. ALL THE FRY from the Gold and other smaller salmon bearing streams on the Muchalat inlet now have to run a guantlet, for miles to get past those net pens. NEVER VOTE LIBERAL AGAIN IF YOU LOVE THIS COUNTRY that's all I gotta say.
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NEVER VOTE LIBERAL AGAIN IF YOU LOVE THIS COUNTRY that's all I gotta say.
You really think another political party is going to make a difference ? We've got the Conservatives for a couple of years now and what have they done to improve the fishery ?
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cuz ever since i was old enough to understand politics.... the liberals have done nothing but sell this country out to special interest and big business. There was a poll recently..... who was the worst canadian to date.... the answer by a staggering lead , pierre elliot trudeau.... and his legacy of selling out canadians still resides in B.C. politics in the form of one Mr.... i was convicted of drunk driving Campbell. I don't think the conservatives have had long enough in office , nor the seats required to make a big difference in fixing all the damage done by years of Liberal rule. I'm a hard line anti liberal and believe that allowing these liberals to stay in office through another election will be suicide for our province's fisheries...... the future will tell
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fDaDumu9vM (the sea lion story, fish farm related. Warning: graphic images)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e6s4CLLkA0 (interesting discovery on the relationship between stickleback, salmon and sea lice)
For more, subscribe to Twyla's channel on YouTube for weekly documentaries on West Coast's environmental issues.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TwylaJean
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I'm a hard line anti liberal and believe that allowing these liberals to stay in office through another election will be suicide for our province's fisheries...... the future will tell
That says it all. Both the Conservatives and Liberals were in power when the Atlantic cod fishery were in decline and both chose not to do anything about it til it was much too late.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e6s4CLLkA0 (interesting discovery on the relationship between stickleback, salmon and sea lice)
For more, subscribe to Twyla's channel on YouTube for weekly documentaries on West Coast's environmental issues.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TwylaJean
Wow, very interesting videos and very well made!
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Well it's good to see that some people are opening their eyes to the realities of the fish farm cover up. Do I think it will do any good? No! Do I think it will change if we all scream loud enough? No! Do I think it will make a difference if we threaten our MLA's with the loss of our votes? Maybe. One thing I do know works is exposer in the press. I have it from one of my inside informants that letters of protest are tossed in the trash as fast as they come in while bad press gets noticed.
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Hey Nicole if you want to start on the human population i can help as i have some experience from the congo and laos in the early sixties. Probably have not forgot much but the body is a lot older. ;D ;D
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i have some experience from the congo and laos in the early sixties.
Mental Note - don't piss off Speycaster in a bar, or cross him in a dark alley :o
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I've talked to many an angler recently, and the common thought is that sockeye will become pretty much extinct in our lifetimes...
Quite the legacy for people's children...
:(
Nicole
Just add it to the list
extinct or endangered:
# African Elephant
# African Wild Asss
# African Wild Dog
# American Alligator
# American White Pelican
# Asian Elephant
# Asian Lion
# Atlantic Salmon
# Black Lemur
# Black-footed Ferret
# Blue Whale
# Bowhead Whale
# Carolina Parakeet
# Cheetah
# Chimpanzee
# Coelacanth
# Common Green Turtle
# Dodo
# Eastern Cougar
# Eskimo Curlew
# Fin Whale
# Flightless Cormorant
# Gaur
# Gavial
# Giant Anteater
# Giant Armadillo
# Giant Panda
# Gorilla
# Great Auk
# Grey Whale
# Grizzly
# Humpback Whale
# Imperial Amazon
# Indian Rhinoceros
# Jaguar
# Crested Ibis
# Kagu
# Kakapo
# Kemp's Ridley
# Komodo Dragon
# Leatherback Turtle
# Leopard
# Loggerhead Turtle
# Mediterranean Monk Seal
# Moas
# Mountain Gorilla
# Orangutan
# Passenger Pigeon
# Philippine Eagle
# Piping Plover
# Pronghorn
# Przewalski's Horse
# Pygmy Hippopotamus
# Sea Otter
# Sei Whale
# Shortnose Sturgeon
# Snow Leopard
# Takahe
# Tapirs
# Tiger
# Trumpeter Swan
# Vancouver Island Marmot
# West Indian Manatee
# White Rhinoceros
# Whooping Crane
# Yak
And if you really want to get edumucated with a more comprehensive list including plants (which is really staggering considering how many of our important medical and recreational drugs come from plants) - check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_species
not only in canada
but in indonesia ( where I live at the moment ) people use TNT to fish out of our oceans
8 days ago they got killed because 200 kg+ TNT exploded in their own house. I did not even feel sorry because they deserve it
2 days ago I wsa fishing in one of the MOST productive seas in Indonesia and I could not even get a single strong bite
PS : about orang utan its because borneo is being exploited by foreign companies e.g. USA for lumbers