Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: steelieman on July 08, 2007, 09:03:36 PM
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I drive to work from Maple Ridge to Mission and noticed that boats are out there with their nets. Not many boats but you can actually see the nets and the red buoy floating behind the boats.
I thought DFO was concern about the early Sockeye run. What is the point of telling people to practice selective methods of fishing while someone else is using "NETS" to fish?
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Don't think it's the commercial guys. It's probably First Nations.
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Yes it is First Nations.. the were all over the place today
Well there goes the early Stuart sockeye run but I'm sure DFO knows what they're doing :-X
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Yes it is First Nations.. the were all over the place today
Well there goes the early Stuart sockeye run but I'm sure DFO knows what they're doing :-X
Using 8 inch mesh but I am sure it takes socks too. I wonder if FOC has monitors on the boats to see how many they are taking. Here's a challenge for someone. Find out how many sockeye are taken in this fishery. I could try but going fishing so will let someone else do the investigating. ;D ;D
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I bet they killed many many many more sockeyes (even unintentionally) with their nets now than the accidental hook ups and release of sockeye by all sporties. At least I have not seen one sockeye hooked by any body where I fished. This is where the hypocrisy lies. Bonk the sporties without real statistics to back it up, and yet let the natives kill the fish they are trying to conserve. Stop all groups if conservation is a concern. Native fishery does not come before conservation concern.
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Last Thursday had a lively and somewhat animated discussion (debate) with a fisheries officer on this same subject.Same adament b.s.about 8 inch mesh.No sockeye retention.I asked if they know for sure these fish were being released.They can't check all the boats ,she said.I told her I know the rcmp had seized many smal mesh nets in the past.The truth is much of this harvest has always been sold.I said this week I would be happy to take her to grocery stores and pubs this week where she could purchase fresh sockey.I well remember the scene of fisheries officers being assaulted a few years ago trying to enforce the law on the Faser.The fact is our politicians condone this illegal activity all the while talking about how conservation comes first.Yesterday my local supermarket had fresh sockeye,but I suppose that was brought in from some exotic locale way up north!If you believe that I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
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Is there any coincidence that Save-On Foods is highlighting fresh wild Sockeye this Salmon Extravaganza week.
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Copper River Sockeye is available at costco....
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Lots of accusations flying here with very little proof. For one thing if the FNs are using 8" web they are following the selective fishing guidelines set out to them by the DFO,which is better than some other user groups on the river, and with that big web the fish will not be snagged by the gills if they are caught but will become tangled in the net with the possibility of a quick release if drift fishing and not set netting.
The natives have a constitutional right to first opportunity to any run of salmon in the Fraser River, it doesn't seem fair to me but I am Canadian and I will abide by the constitution of my country, sorry life just ain't fair.
Every time we have a high profile court case involving fish and wildlife and natives in BC and the natives win on constitutional grounds the laws then change in their favor. If the C.O's keep going to court with charges that don't stick it will end up so there will be no hunting or fishing in B.C. by any group except the FN.
The rest of Canada signed treaties with the first nations peoples over 100 years ago while the governments of B.C. were too racist and arrogant to do so, so what we have here is a province where the fish and wildlife rights of the natives are not fully defined or written in law and we should be really carefull with the cases that do go to court because once these rights are fully defined there are going to be big changes in the way wildlife management is dealt with here in B.C.
As sport fishers we have a large problem of poaching and disregard for the DFO conservation requests made of us here in B.C. and we should be working to clean up our own image rather than pointing fingers at other user groups. If we disregard requests made to us by the DFO we have no credibilty whatsoever and hense forth we will be forever relegated to whistleing in the wind with no one listening and no one caring what we say.
If you want to stop illegal sales of fish go after the buyers, follow those fish to there destination and charge the people buying them, they do not have constitutional rights to illegally buy fish, this is not just a door to door operation this is commercial packing houses, restaurants and canneries buying these fish and the markets could be shut down easily.
Sure hope I don't have to change my name after this post.
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I know this will never happen.. but why can't we all just live as Canadians without Race dividing us ?? why can't we all just live by the same set of guidelines ?? First Nations have their own reserves and fishing locales in which we cannot partake or it is called tresspassing !! so why then are First nations allowed everywhere they want without restrictions?? I understand that these are the laws that were developed a long time ago but why were they made in the first place ??? This is one of the things that make me go hmmmmmmm !! ???
TH
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Yes it is First Nations.. the were all over the place today
Well there goes the early Stuart sockeye run but I'm sure DFO knows what they're doing :-X
Using 8 inch mesh but I am sure it takes socks too. I wonder if FOC has monitors on the boats to see how many they are taking. Here's a challenge for someone. Find out how many sockeye are taken in this fishery. I could try but going fishing so will let someone else do the investigating. ;D ;D
good idea chris , Fishfreak where did you get your info ?
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What really bothers me about the first nations "food fishery" is that it is not food for themselves. It is food for whomever has a few bucks in their jeans and is willing to buy the fish from them. Natives are always spouting off about how they are conservation minded - that in my opinion is complete BS. There was an article in one of the outdoor magazines that featured a page written by a first nations member who was also an ex-CO. One short sentence in his article really brought it to my attention. I believe he was talking about moose hunting. He said something along the lines of "he only takes enough game for himself and his community"........ Pardon me........ If I was allowed to go out and shoot a deer for everyones freezer in my neighborhood how many would we have left after a while -- Zero --- That is going to be what happens to our fishing heritage also. They will be allowed to take as much as they want, when they want, while we stand helpless on the shore knowing full well that our government backs this crap. End Rant
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I also know of natives that only take what they will eat but there are certain bands that give all of them a bad name (I'm sure some of you know which ones so I won't mention them) Also there is still a small commercial fishery in the ocean. So it doesn't surprise me that save-on has fresh sockeye
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Ok trophyhunter I too understand what you mean by wanting everyone to abide by one law, but that isn't the way it is, it isn't just a matter of law like a speed limit, it is a matter of constitutional rights and they just cannot be changed that easily. As for the property thing I don't quite understand your point, if you put a no tresspassing sign on your property trespassers of any race can be prosecuted, Indian reserves are their private property they have every right to put up no trespassing signs. All of the pipeline bar up here is on Indian reserve including the parking, and the natives are good enough to let hundreds of people fish it every day, whereas at the scales bar a small group of non native residents bitched and whined until the fisheries changed the law so the anglers wouldn't run into conflicts with the land owners. I agree with FishFreak that the actions of some bands are the ones that get the most negative publicity, and every one should not be judged the same. I also find that a lot of people on this forum have absolutely no knowledge of the FN people or the FN fishery whatsoever, automatically assuming that every net they see is an illegal activity going on.
Many recent court cases in Canada have been held to redress past wrongs to minority groups of people, take for example the payment made to Japanese Canadians held in interment camps during the second world war or the repayment of the head tax charged to Chinese immigrants at the beginning of the last century. Now it has been established that the natives of BC sold fish to the non natives from the time they arrived here but at sometime the commercial fishery became a powerfull political power and large employer of people with canneries up and down the west coast and the river systems right to Kamloops. At this time the natives were a downtrodden people decimated by white mans diseases without the right to vote, raise their own children, follow their own religious beliefs or even speak their own language. So laws were made that made it illegal for them to sell fish with them having no right to appeal at all.
Now in light of all this does anyone actually believe that there is a judge in Canada that will stand up and say in a court of law and state that these people have been treated fairly. With almost everyone on this forum screaming that there should be more charges laid against the FN people I believe that court cases do not always have the results that please the majority of the people.
P.S. just cuz I have an opinion doesn't mean I'm always right ;)
Sorry to have ran totally off topic on this thread, I'll try to control myself in the future.
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My referance to the property trespassing etc was just an example of Races separating themselves instead of just sharing this earth as one !! I know it is something that will probably never happen , and I realize that in places such as Africa it is much much worse... I was just saying what I wish could be ;)
TH
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I guess what I have the most problem with is when people say its is another races "right" to be able to abide by different laws than the majority of the population. Through out history cultures and races were displaced by others through wars, population changes etc. Happened all through Europe. My ancestors were displaced and replaced by others. What my ancestors "Rights" were at the time is to become part of the new society and integrate. I believe we should have one set of rules for everyone. As for us paying for the sins of our fathers--Why is it every time an apology is required it needs to be backed up with cash............Lots of things in life I don't understand and one of those things is why do i have to explain to my children that its OK for the folks at the mouth of the cap to dam the river with shopping carts and use modern fishing gear to snag the salmon.
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Allowing one group, based on Race to have special privledges is Racism through and through.
This is the same damn racism that is the biggest taboo in society and would get me hung if I expressed it.
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I disagree Natives never and I repeat never outnumbered the Caucasians, we had a far larger more advanced (depends on how you look at it) population, they just had not landed on this continent yet My teachers in high school were also part of the same order of "Christians" that enjoyed the abuse that they could deal out (physical not sexual in my case) What was done to the native community was wrong--but I should not have to pay for it- I never did it. All that the separation that you keep trying to have does is create racism. I don't know how many vehicle loads of natives i have come across in the woods while out hunting that return my friendly wave with a dark scowl and sometimes profanity. It is time to bury the past and let it lie, we cant change it but we can learn from it. As long as the native community continues to have an attitude that "Whites owe us" you will never and I repeat never haul yourselves out of the mental trap that your in now. Its time to stand up and follow the lead of very few of your community---find work outside your community, achieve an education and go out into the world and take what your labors will get you. I am finding that as I get older I am becoming more of a racist and I have to ask myself why? It is because we as a population have been taught that in order for there to be no racism all men should be created/treated equal. Thats not the way it is, all minorities are now treated with kid gloves--case in point if myself and a few of my buddies stood in the middle of the lions gate bridge, put masks on our faces and had rifles slung across our chests what do you think would happen. Well if we were native we could hold that bridge up for days or months-- if we were just a bunch of white guys we would get a free ride that very same day to the city morgue because the ERT teams would have caused the standoff to come to a very quick end............
But this is a fishing forum so this will be my last post on this topic
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"you have no right to say they dont deserve what they get"
Well thank you, but as long as I am respectful and polite I am entitled to my opinion
I respect your right to voice your opinion, I expect the same.
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It doesn't matter whether or not any of it is fair, according to the Canadian constitution the aboriginal people of this country have different rights when it comes to fish and game, the constitution goes deeper than law, it is what our laws are based on. Australia, New Zealand, the United States and many other progressive countries have the same sort of things to deal with and have dealt with them through legislation, in case you haven't noticed the natives in Washington state get a way larger share of the salmon in their rivers than the ones here do.
Anyone can rant and rave about these people having more rights than they do but abiding by our constitution is part of being a citizen of Canada and until the aboriginal rights are fully defined by the courts of our land I don't really believe that taking them to court on charges that the DFO has a very hard time proving are actually against the law is very productive.
Just another point to ponder when the white man first went up the Nass River in the early eighteen hundreds the natives there were living in two story cedar homes that were far superior to anything working class people in Europe were living in at the time.
Maybe you don't think you should have to pay for past wrongs but recent court settlements to other minorities have done just that these things all have to be dealt with sooner or later.
I'm sure that if everyone studied the constitution they could find parts that they personly disagreed with but you have to accept the bad with the good.
My main point that I was trying to make when I started this was that it's way easier to go after the non native illegal buyers of the fish that have no constitutional protection and are way cheaper to prosecute than it is to go after the fishermen. In a lot of entries on this site I still see a lot of the racism and ignorance that has crippled the governments of BC in dealing with these problems for the last 150 years. In dealing with the natives of BC you are not dealing with an ignorant or uneducated people and they are very well represented in the courts of law, the DFO has been taking them to court for at least three generations and slowly losing ground with every court case they lose. At one time they were charging them with illegally selling fish, now we have sanctioned native commercial fisheries, recently the charge of choice was illegal drift netting now we have legal drift net openings, yet on this site I still hear lots of requests for more charges to be laid against them, I believe the fisheries should be very carefull about picking their battles because whatever the courts decree now will affect the Fraser River fishery for generations to come.
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It is not just racism in their policy, DFO is bending its back to accomodate this group for fear of stiring up some political tensons or defiant actions by this group. They basically cave in. I never know pepper spray is that mighty powerful. ;D
That is why some of us non-native fishermen are so upset about DFO's political move to try to nail us with their so called Selective Clause when no sockeyes of any significant numbers are hooked by any body. I can understand if this request comes past July 20 or so. Why June? Hardly any sockeyes to speak of. This just amounts to bullying a user group into submission. Well, if this is not a racist ploy, why not try it on the natives to request them off the river too? ;D
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The natives are requested to use selective methods, larger web in their nets, it doesn't work 100% but it does help considerably specially with the Stuart River fish which are a smaller fish than the later sockeye. And by the way the show close to full compliance to this. Later in the year before the sockeye sports fishing openings and after the Stuarts are through they will be allowed to use sockeye web again.