Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on June 22, 2007, 02:54:16 PM
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I certainly hope all fishers comply with this request as I would hate to see the river closed to all sports angling for salmon.
If they donot this could happen which certainly would be a shame. :'( :(
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Thats good, I like it already....before the bar fishing season reely has come into full swing or started therefore, and we can already kick the flossers out! I feel sympathy for those poor early stu's as every year they seem to have some sort of "mortallity" problem.... :-\
Mike <"))))><
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Thats good, I like it already....before the bar fishing season reely has come into full swing or started therefore, and we can already kick the flossers out! I feel sympathy for those poor early stu's as every year they seem to have some sort of "mortallity" problem.... :-\
Mike <"))))><
Yes Mike it is very important to keep away from the temptation to floss as it will prove costly if not this year it will in the years ahead.
It is great to see more people all the time moving away from this type of fishing.
Even though I donot agree with the flossing anytime because it has so many drawbacks as has been debated many times but when the sockeye are open go for it even though I will never do it again after I gave it up many years ago as I have no interest in catching a fish that does not bite.
I would like to see it as do many others if we are to have a sockeye fishery take you two sockeye and call it a day or go bar fishing. Keeping at it to catch a chinook will only see our chinook fishery curtailed in the very near future. Then it will be time to take up golf or still water fishing.
It would hurt me greatly as many of us have worked so hard to get a chinook fishery through the Fraser Valley Salmon Society over 22 years ago. It would be a sorry day if that was to happen.
Sorry Rodney if I have started the annual flossing debate but I want people to understand what could be just around the corner, you can bet on it just like betting the Leafs will never again win the Stanley Cup. ;D ;D ;D Not sure if that it a correct comparison or not. ;D ;D ;D
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Define Bar Fishing. I define it as fishing from a gravel bar opposed to fishing from a boat (which I call boat fishing). If I'm on a lake, I call that lake fishing.
While fishing from a bar, one might use a leader that is a bit longer than others and possibly a weight slightly lighter than others. It's still bar fishing.
Float fishing? Just because a foam dink float is placed on the mainline just above a BB'ing rig will make it okay? I'm confused.
Maybe DFO should be more specific instead of suggestive. Why are they just making requests to be selective?
Oh well, I'll do what I can, to comply to a request even though I love to bounce.
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Here we go again. Time for the heated debates! :'(
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Define Bar Fishing. I define it as fishing from a gravel bar opposed to fishing from a boat (which I call boat fishing). If I'm on a lake, I call that lake fishing.
While fishing from a bar, one might use a leader that is a bit longer than others and possibly a weight slightly lighter than others. It's still bar fishing.
Float fishing? Just because a foam dink float is placed on the mainline just above a BB'ing rig will make it okay? I'm confused.
Maybe DFO should be more specific instead of suggestive. Why are they just making requests to be selective?
Oh well, I'll do what I can, to comply to a request even though I love to bounce.
Bar fishing in my mind is the use of SPREADER BARS as your terminal rigging. Hence the name bar fishing. You don't have to be on a gravel bar to do it. BB is not bar fishing it is fishing from a bar. Most people that I talk to when I mention bar fishing they ask From boat or from shore. If I am standing on any kind of shoreline and fishing I call it shorefishing. AS for throwing a float on top of a bb rig I call that bottom bouncing with an indicater. Float fishing in my mind is only when you are "floating"the bait.
Enough with that, now is the time of year for me to polish up my spoons. What kind of fishing do they call that? ??? ;D
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Its simple, if your not catching sockeye bb,ing is there a problem. if you start catching soc's move or stop bb,ing.
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Let me get this right. Is this DFO sugesting that we bar fish, float fish, pulling plug or troll or is it a committee. Selective fishing could mean so many different things. I just select to use a smaller leader and that is me being selective and that is perfectly legal.
Why can't DFO just step up and say what they really want.
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Its simple, if your not catching sockeye bb,ing is there a problem. if you start catching soc's move or stop bb,ing.
You're exactly right Jim. Now most of us who have been doing this for a while know perfectly well as to what water to target for Springs and what to target for Sockeye. THe problen is that the newbies don't make that connection yet and they will intercept sockeye. There's nothing wrong with selectively BB'ing; that's why DFO doesn't put a stop to it - they make suggestions.
Use of a Spreader Bar means you are bar fishing - Come on. I've used a spreader bar years ago for bottom bouncing to keep the lead from hammering the leader. Now I use heavy 100# dacron instead of a spreader. So if I go back to using the spreader, I'll be compliant to the DFO request by definition.
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whats the survival rate when sockeye get caught with a bar rod as there were quite a few early last year caught on spin n glows. people will still bottom bounce and they may get a few sockeye while the majority will barfish and they will probably get a few as well. this debate comes up every year, they should make a leader restriction instead of asking people to fish selectively.
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It`s funny to see the people on different forums who would run to phone DFO about others fishing regulation violations try and justify their right to work around the current regulations. It is quite simple really, if you keep flossing out of the open retention sockeye season than DFO will just shut ALL sport fishing on the Fraser down during critical salmon migration times. Than we can thank guys who insist on openly defying this request when we can`t do ANY sport fishing on the Fraser at this time of year.
Cheers
Nuggy
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If DFO is truly concerned about the by catch from bottom bouncing then they would just ban it all together or at least put some kind of restriction on it. I think that DFO should be more concerned with the by catch from the nets that are in the water. The nets are far more devasting to this run then bb'ing.
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This request notice is directed to the sport fishing population, not natives.
Cheers
Nuggy
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Maybe they should send a notice to them. All I was saying is that the nets could destroy this early run in no time at all :'( .
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Here we go again. Time for the heated debates! :'(
In all respect no heated debates are needed. As other have said it has been covered very well before, by both sides of the debate. However we have now got to the point if the selective methods that are asked for by FOC are not adhered to the fishery will be closed down.
I attend many meetings on this subject so I am just relating the information I hear. I donot believe I am hearing it differently if so others are free to correct me.
As a added point there will be no sockeye fishery in 2008 because of low returns and this season the word is it will be short so a good opportunity to take up bar fishing.
Thankfully they are giving us a choice as they should, it is in our own hands now.
As far as catching sockeye on bar rigs it usually is a very uncommon occurrence as I and many other long time bar fishers will testify to.
Last year when we had our Fish BC bar fish in I know we hooked two or three and then on another trip we were into another but this is out of the ordinary.
Heading fishing now, others can offer their opinions while I try to land my second chinook of the season after 150 hours of fishing to date, fresh bugs should be the ticket. ;D ;D ;D
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There was a drift net down by the new westminister casino yesterday evening . If the run is so small , they should do something about the drift nets .
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I have caught many sockeye while barfishing, so what do you do?
kinda funny , nobody mentions this!
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the gates on the Abbotsford side have been replaced at KWB and Barrowtown and they are NOT going to be opened.
Hey just a question, is the barrowtown launch still open? I'm assuming the gate is on the dyke portion, and not the actual boat launch... Anyone know?
Cheers,
Nicole
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what has been going on vandalism wise on the abby side?
I thought it was illegal duming and riparian damage from all those two strokes that was the problem?
Cheers,
Nicole
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From what I saw this past weekend there won't be any fishing on that river for quite some time, it is huge huge huge !!!
seems to be much higher than I have ever seen at this time of year... Hell's gate was definately living up to it's name :o The side channel at Laidlaw that we can usually wade across was at least 100 feet wide and raging !! It is kind of scary when you walk down to the river and it gives you shivers because it is so crazy looking !!!
TH
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LOL. This site is more of a gong show than the fraser in peak sockeye season. And rodney and nina are the only CO's. Give 'em a break.
BTW, i got my first report of a spring caught in the fraser. It was caught Bottom Bouncing (before this notice came out) near scale bar.
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Keep in mind so far there has been no announcement from D.F.O to request "selective methods" or any "no fishing for Sockeye" announcement as of yet.
Those anglers that are Flossing do so legally at this time and are not disregarding any requests or any "no fishing" regulations.
If you agree with it or not is a completely different issue.
This issue comes up every season and I for one am very tired of it. This request business from D.F.O is complete nonsense. No where else in government or law is there requests to do anything. It is either O.K. or its not. This grey area is no way to manage this fishery. It is either legal or its not. This is just political maneuvering and only servers to divide the angling community and cause confusion. The real fact of the mater is that we do not adversely affect the Stuart run of fish and D.F.O knows this there numbers prove it. The test fishery used to kill many more Stuart fish than we ever did not to mention all the nets "selectively" fishing for Chinook. This is pure politics. Catch and release works.
This issue needs to regulated once and for all either allow flossing or don't allow flossing make it clear but so far D.F.O has resisted doing this and we fall all over ourselves blaming each other when we have practically no effect on the species that is of concern. We are a political pawn, we are the most visible user group, but we have the smallest impact on the fish. Divide and conquer seems to be the strategy and we fall for it every time.
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I am not trying to start anything here but does this notice from the SFAC have any merit behind it or not. Since they are an advisory board for the DFO and not exactly the DFO. Just a question as there has not been an official notice from DFO as of yet. I am not going to go to the fraser anytime soon as the lakes are still productive and I enjoy the solitude that my pontoon provides. Without there being an official notice what is going to stop people from thinking twice about bb'ing.
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It says" methods that do not catch sockeye", bar fishing, pulling plugs,flyfishing,and throwing hardware catch sockeye so should these methods be banned.
And this notice dose not mention bottom bouncing.
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Why doesn't DFO list the techniques that catch sockeye. Major gray area. There needs to be research on how many socks are caught using various techniques and on catch and release techniques for socks.
I don't see a problem with catch and release. Catch and release is an excepted technique in BC and the USA. If I use heavy gear and bring the sock in quickly for the release, what is the problem? Water temp is not an issue right now either.
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Well apparently the high water is going to effect the mortallity of the Early Stu's......they find a different excuse every year ::) the water reely isn't that high for this time of year either.......
So flossing and releasing affects the mortallity rate of sockeye so badly that they begin to attack spin n' glos :D
I remember in 2005 everyone was out there flossing springs (almost) I think I even saw you out there flossing them rod, could be wrong though but it sure looked like you ;D, and DFO didn't have a problem with that, that was the year that sockeye were closed until the beginning of september.....they just said to be smart when releasing the fish....thats all they asked....and I don't think there was anymore sockeye floating down the river than, than there will be this season.....
But rules are rules, and bar fishing is actually a relaxing & productive sport, and of coure I will abide to the DFO "Requests"....
Mike <"))))><
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Yep, busted, that was me out there flossing springs, that's why I have created a virtual sanctuary here to accommodate those who choose to fish unethically. ::)
LOL ;D just raising some h e double hockey sticks on here Rod :D
Mike <"))))><
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There is no way to "selectivity" bottom bounce, anything that gets in that hooks way will get nailed. Anyone who thinks otherwise should give their head a shake. I have "caught" sturgeon, trout, squaw fish, coho, chinook, pink, chum, sockeye, by bottom bouncing...not that thats an accomplishment, its simply a reflection of the fact that it is a non selective method.
As well, all a leader restriction does in minimize the effectiveness of flossing because it reduces the chance of running your line thru a fish's mouth. leader restrictions will not protect a non target species.
PS - does anyone find it pathetic that last year the was too little water and it was too warm hence DFO expected that to affect survival rates and now theres too much...which once again they are saying will negatively impact survival rates...seems like no matter what, they want to try and blame the river/conditions opposed to being accountable for things like poaching or lack of enforcement.
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PS - does anyone find it pathetic that last year the was too little water and it was too warm hence DFO expected that to affect survival rates and now theres too much...which once again they are saying will negatively impact survival rates...seems like no matter what, they want to try and blame the river/conditions opposed to being accountable for things like poaching or lack of enforcement.
UHHHH YA! I laugh every time "mortallity" comes into a sentance w/ DFO...like I stated earlier....no more fish will be floating down this year than last, and the past 5 years before that....
What is an IDEAL condition for SOCKEYE?
Mike <"))))><
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What is an IDEAL condition for SOCKEYE?
Perhaps those who choose to criticize, aka laugh, at DFO's concerns should do some extensive research on the above stated question before openly disregard the validity of research by staff of DFO, who are trained biologists and resource managers. If one does not know the ideal condition for returning sockeye salmon, then on what basis can he or she suggest that DFO's concern on high, low or warm water is wrong?
The question is , do you really think D.F.O. cares ??? I personally think they are so worried about upsetting the Natives and Commercial fishermen that the fish come last !!! Rodney do you honestly believe that the D.F.O really care about the fish ??? So much red tape .. so much bureaucracy ...
if they really cared about this run of Sockeye there would be a complete closure and that means everybody... stopping a few people from accidentally catching a Sockeye or two whilst fishing for Springs is going to make NO noticeable difference in the grand scheme of things.... this is what is so upsetting !!! >:(
TH
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not to mention the lack of presence durring the illegal native drift net fisheries that i see happening on a daily basis. I have had my boat boarded several times this year!
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I can gurantee you Rodney that 80-90% of the fisherman out there wonder and think the same things that THICKRICK, GOOEY, and MYSELF have posted.
The raping and bias on the fraser river needs to stop, maybe they should spend more than 95% of their time worrying about us, and put it towards some of the "illegal" netting.
Its also the BIOLOGISTS if I can call them that, that SCREWED up many systems, and make false aquisitions...such as closing the river to fraser river white sturgeon in the williams lake area, people up there know that there is still a strong abundance of fish to be c&r and are just as confused as us worried anglers down here over the apparent "charging" of sturgeon anglers to fish lower fraser sturgeon.!
Mike <")))><
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I've submitted a pitch to the news desk for coverage on the illegal sales of sockeye up in hope...
Hopefully CBC decides to pick up the story, the whole thing is a disgrace.
Natives should be policing each other, it's unreal the amount of greed that exists.
Cheers,
Nicole
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In the end you can write long Paragraphs all night long but the truth is still the same, Recreational fisherman, whether they be bottom bouncing or "selective fishing" will never cause even 10% of the damage to the Sockeye runs as "legal" or "Illegal" netting . Raping the river over and over again year after year is going to decimate the Salmon runs in the Fraser !!!
D.F.O. requesting Rec Fishermen to selective fish is just a public ploy to make them look like they actually give a $hit
TH
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Hey, as long as everyone selects a fishing method and doesn't target and retain sockeye when sockeye are closed, then we don't have a problem.
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Right rieber, thats assuming the stock doesnt collapse like it did on the east coast! And while I have no imperical data/ statistics, Rick is right, until the large scale poaching (and we all know what that means) is stopped, the stocks will be threatened. After all it wasnt a bunch of sporties with rods and hand lines that decimated the cod stocks on the east coast.
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Excellent and well thought out material you have written Rodney. ;D
When the 40 page document on fishing ethics, that is now in its final draft before being released to the public and to be posted on this and other web sites you will see that FOC does care. A number of FOC and MOE staff along with concerned anglers spent a number of meetings putting it together.
I certainly am very pleased with what accomplished by all that attended. ;D ;D ;D
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As we all know, bbing is a very effective technique to harvest fish. There seems to be lots of concern for sockeye stocks being intercepted by native ,sport and commercial fisheries. However, I have heard little concern for the number of chinook that are being taken by all user groups. Most chinook runs in the upper Fraser are in the hundreds, not thousands. From the number of chinook that I have observed being caught by bbing I feel that we are having a high impact on these fish and that it want be long before this fishery will be closed .
As far as the native fishery is concerned they have first dibs at the fish by law . We may not like it but get over it.
I suggest that everyone should go out flossing this weekend and then DFO can close the fishery down so that we don't have to debate this issue forever.
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As far as the native fishery is concerned they have first dibs at the fish by law . We may not like it but get over it.
As far as the DFO is concerned, bottom bouncing wasn't pinpointed as the selctive technique they are discouraging. You also may not like this, but GET OVER IT!
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As far as the native fishery is concerned they have first dibs at the fish by law . We may not like it but get over it.
As far as the DFO is concerned, bottom bouncing wasn't pinpointed as the selctive technique they are discouraging. You also may not like this, but GET OVER IT!
I respect your opinion on this issue but I believe most anglers know what type of fishing that is requested not to do. They, FOC are trying to work with the recreational fishers as much as possible without be heavy handed.
But as Buck has stated very clearly if the request is not adhered too you and the rest of us will be off the river salmon fishing just like what happened in the 1980's. Then we had to work long and hard to get it back.
I and I feel many others will not be prepared to do so once again just because some people will not fish selectively when a resonable request has been made and that of course means refrain from bottom bouncing, flossing or putting it bluntly snagging as many people call it, for the next few weeks.
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Anyone who thinks a snag fishery is selective is a little confused.
Anyone who thinks that our chinooks are NOT taking a beating from this should realize that many runs number very few fish. Many of these runs were typically out of reach in the past due to the typical high water and dirty conditions experienced during the early summer. Not anymore as snagging knows no limitations.
While Im very concerned about nets and their impact, I am also not going to do what I want just because my impact might be a little less. That's not very mature nor does it show any respect to the resource.
I hope everyone does THEIR part and fishes a biting method or stays off the river. Sadly, Im at the point where I almost agree with Buck, let's get it shut down so we dont have to have this any more. But what does that solve? Stubborness and greed may make it so there is ZERO opportunity when there was at least SOME before. :-\
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I totally agree with Buck on the concern of the chinook numbers. So if we all comply with what DFO is trying to say( stop bb'ing for now) then we will have an extra how many people bar fishing for a chinook run that is lower then the sockeye run that they don't want you to catch. Sounds pretty ethical to me.
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I am with Big Steel on this so called selective method thing. At this early season, there are not a lot of so called newbies out there. Catching a spring is not that easy for a newbie, and he will lose tons of gears while most of his trips are skunked. Most of the guys out there now are the top gun bbers who know how to avoid socs, like BS and his friends. These guys can map out the river bottom by their betties and zeroing in only springy water. Last year, I did not catch one soc until sockeye opened, nor did I see enough accidental catch to be a concern by the grand scale of stock management. In fact we were the guys guarding any newbies who mishandled a soc, or preventing a soc from being bonked by an ignorant newbie. About selectivity, it is the anglers who will selectively avoid socs and these early season bbers do a good job at it. There was not one case of dead soc floating down during early season on my days at the bars. Yes, there were some later in the season, but who can say for sure that those dead socs were killed by bbers and not bar fishers or net suffocation or even warm water. ??? Why are the bbers made such a scape goat in the grand scheme of stock management? If this is not a political ploy, then I don't know what is.
Therere is simply no statistical justification to stop BBing for those fishers who prefer and excel to take springs this way. I am afraid that DFO is bowing to the pressure and relentless lobbying year after year, by the minority but vocal and well connected bar fishers to shut the bbers down. If that happens, I think BBers who are the majority will be out in full force in defiance, and then DFO will shut down the Fraser. When that happens, don't just point finger at the bbers. DFO has no scientific nor statistical proof that the bbers can damage fish stock. They know the real threat - native drift nets and endless poaching. If conservation is the problem, they should shut all parties down, not just bbers. I will bb this weekend because I know I will not hook any soc, because those of us who know will fish very selectively and only in selective water - zero soc. Can a bar fisher be so sure when it is the spin & glow who is doing the fishing? ;D ;D Bar rigs are usually thown not far out in the river, and they are right in the sockeye travel lane. Most bbers know to retrieve much earlier to avoid drifting into close shore water where socs are found, and there are very few of them in this early season for sockeye. In fact some year, you don't see enough sockeye even when sockeye opened in first week of August.
By the way, for the bar fishers, if only 30% of bbers are converted to your art, then the limited private bar fishing space that you are enjoying now will be gone. Don't complain that you show up at first light and still find no space to fish, or tons of guys elbowing into your peaceful and quiet world of bar fishing. There are simply not that many good bars for the generous space each bar rod needs.
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To answer some of these post above, short and to the point.
Most if not all of us did this type of fishing at one time or another so we are familar with the method.
However once we discovered what we were doing and the fish were not biting we knew we were snagging them. Snagging is illegal so that is one of the reasons we stopped doing this as we have no interest in catching a fish that is not biting.
More people are seeing this all the time and are becoming concerned with the effect this is having on chinook stocks as some members have posted. There of course are other consequences as well that have been posted many times, no need to post them again.
Going fishing now ;D ;D and I will leave the topic for others for the day and hope to post "The Journal " on the day's fishing outcome with The Master and Rodney.
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I talked to one fisherman last year that was fishing at Spagetti last year before sockeye opened and he told me he landed 5 sockeye in 7 casts bbing while "selectively" fishing for springs. He said the place was plugged with boats and when the sockeye moved in everyone was hitting them, I guess nobody there was a good enough bottom bouncer to TARGET springs, this is the kind of thing the fisheries is trying to stop, unfortunately they cannot tell just to look at you that you are the one in a thousand ace fishermen that can pull your hook through a school of sockeye and avoid hooking any, while still being efective on the springs maybe if you can selectively pick your species while snagging you should get a tee shirt or badge that somehow identifies you and it would make the dfo's job so much easier. Something with big printing on it so it so it could be read from their observation plane would be good, it could identify you with wording such as I'm The One, or maybe Superfisher, or anything to separate you from all those other snaggers that just haven't developed the ability to pull their hooks away from the sockeye and still nail the springs.
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I talked to one fisherman last year that was fishing at Spagetti last year before sockeye opened and he told me he landed 5 sockeye in 7 casts bbing while "selectively" fishing for springs. He said the place was plugged with boats and when the sockeye moved in everyone was hitting them, I guess nobody there was a good enough bottom bouncer to TARGET springs, this is the kind of thing the fisheries is trying to stop, unfortunately they cannot tell just to look at you that you are the one in a thousand ace fishermen that can pull your hook through a school of sockeye and avoid hooking any, while still being efective on the springs maybe if you can selectively pick your species while snagging you should get a tee shirt or badge that somehow identifies you and it would make the dfo's job so much easier. Something with big printing on it so it so it could be read from their observation plane would be good, it could identify you with wording such as I'm The One, or maybe Superfisher, or anything to separate you from all those other snaggers that just haven't developed the ability to pull their hooks away from the sockeye and still nail the springs.
;D ;D ;D
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I talked to one fisherman last year that was fishing at Spagetti last year before sockeye opened and he told me he landed 5 sockeye in 7 casts bbing while "selectively" fishing for springs. He said the place was plugged with boats and when the sockeye moved in everyone was hitting them, I guess nobody there was a good enough bottom bouncer to TARGET springs, this is the kind of thing the fisheries is trying to stop, unfortunately they cannot tell just to look at you that you are the one in a thousand ace fishermen that can pull your hook through a school of sockeye and avoid hooking any, while still being efective on the springs maybe if you can selectively pick your species while snagging you should get a tee shirt or badge that somehow identifies you and it would make the dfo's job so much easier. Something with big printing on it so it so it could be read from their observation plane would be good, it could identify you with wording such as I'm The One, or maybe Superfisher, or anything to separate you from all those other snaggers that just haven't developed the ability to pull their hooks away from the sockeye and still nail the springs.
I think this situation would also apply to barfishing. In other words, if there are bar rods in the pathway of sockeyes, there will be some sockeyes intercepted. To me, I do not think there has been a proven method not to catch sockeyes.
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I talked to one fisherman last year that was fishing at Spagetti last year before sockeye opened and he told me he landed 5 sockeye in 7 casts bbing while "selectively" fishing for springs. He said the place was plugged with boats and when the sockeye moved in everyone was hitting them, I guess nobody there was a good enough bottom bouncer to TARGET springs, this is the kind of thing the fisheries is trying to stop, unfortunately they cannot tell just to look at you that you are the one in a thousand ace fishermen that can pull your hook through a school of sockeye and avoid hooking any, while still being efective on the springs maybe if you can selectively pick your species while snagging you should get a tee shirt or badge that somehow identifies you and it would make the dfo's job so much easier. Something with big printing on it so it so it could be read from their observation plane would be good, it could identify you with wording such as I'm The One, or maybe Superfisher, or anything to separate you from all those other snaggers that just haven't developed the ability to pull their hooks away from the sockeye and still nail the springs.
LOL! I could see the badge now, with a poorly drawn stick figure, a rod, a handfull of betties, and oodles of line going around and around the outside edge of the whole mess... Superfisher would be written in some sort of children's typeface.
LOL!
Nicole
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Steelhawk, pretty impressive that there are some who can or seem to think they can avoid sockeye while using a snagging method of angling. I think DFO is 100% in the right to be concerned. Snagging is illegal for many reasons; management concerns being one of them. We're not yet at the point where this method can be defined in regulations so that's why they can only make requests in regards to it. But they do have a way to deal with this, but it will come at a cost of total closure to salmon fishing during certain periods.
So you and some others might think they can snag fish selectively, but how can you prove it? As DFO does their patrols and sees guys "bottom bouncing" they will correctly label it as snagging but deal with it from the perspective of anglers acting in non-compliance with their requests. It doesnt take a scientist to watch the snagging show to see that there are impacts. Of course there are nets and poachers but I dont believe that it gives anglers the right to do what they please in light of it. If the world operated on these grounds it would be pretty scary.
If more guys started to bar fish and take up room, I wouldnt mind. Speak for yourself in regards to what you consider crowding or lack of available areas to fish! ;D I oppose snagging, but I dont oppose sharing the fishery at all and wouldnt be "upset" if someone fished "my" bar.
Lastly, Ive bar fished for over 20 years and have caught probably a half dozen sockeye in this time. Ask any bar fisher and they'll have similar numbers. If sockeye bit bar rods well, why would guys have to snag for them?? The few that are caught are quickly beached and released as the gear is set up for larger springs which make beaching a smaller fish quick and easy. Can some guy fishing a 20' leader out his 14' boat say the same thing as he tries to reach the fish that dangles out of reach? I dont mean to be rude, Im just stating the facts that are easy to see.
On a personal note, I think it's too bad that guys think they have the ability and an apparent pride in the fact that they have the skill and knowledge to snag fish 'selectively'.
What happened to looking up to skilled anglers who can get the fish to bite no matter what odds were against the angler. :-\
P.S.
;D ;D ;D Just saw some posts while I was writing. Thanks for the laugh Nicole and Nosey!
Tee, have you ever barfished? You're right, there isnt 100% avoidance of sockeye, but even in prime conditions, they are hard to catch. In muddy water it is hard enough to catch a spring never mind a sockeye. Dont drag bar fishing into it. DFO is rightfully targeting snagging, not bar fishing. If things progressed where bar fishing was an issue, they'd make a request on that as well and I would abide by it.
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Tee, have you ever barfished? You're right, there isnt 100% avoidance of sockeye, but even in prime conditions, they are hard to catch. In muddy water it is hard enough to catch a spring never mind a sockeye. Dont drag bar fishing into it. DFO is rightfully targeting snagging, not bar fishing. If things progressed where bar fishing was an issue, they'd make a request on that as well and I would abide by it.
As the matter of fact, yes I have. Don't get me wrong that I tried to pick on bar fishing. I just wanted to point out that no matter what method you use in water conditions like the Fraser river, if there is a school of fish travelling through where you fish, there will be a good chance that some fish will intercept your line or even your hook if unlucky. To me, there is no such proven methods that do not catch sockeyes as DFO has requested in the notice. Thus, if intercepting the early run sockeye is a concern, shuting down the river to all users seems to be more proven in my opinion.
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Oh the experienced bbers are superfishers? Them most of us who are targeting June & early July springs can claim that title. We are talking this time period in which hooking sockeyes as a by catch is just rare, at least in the bars that I fish. I admit that closer to August, some socs are hooked and more daily, but I believe that these are now the early runners of the main run. We know, most of these fish are smallish, not the beautiful large early Stuarts. Towards August, even bar rigs thrown at the travel lane of the sockeyes are catching the socs. So should we say, we close the river late July until socs are open. All rods off the water, period. That will be fair because bar rigs are not exempt from hooking sockeyes. Imagine the poor socs having to fight a lb of lead....
Ah, it is ethics that you are talking about. That is the main evil or venom between the two groups of fishers. Using snagging repeatedly to describe our craft shows total disrespect for other people's choice of fishing method. Somewhere in the world, some 'religious' group are killing off others because they cannot tolerate others choosing a different way to worship, even slightly different. Intolerance plus progpaganda means hatred and violence.... If this happens to the Fraser, I know we bbers will lose out to the 'dozers' or 'beerers' (sorry we have to label back when you use 'snaggers' on us, just being fair) because they can fire their 1lb lead balls at us when we can only fire back with 2-4 oz..... ;D
I say, fish in peace, as my avitar suggest. If our preferred way to fish is doing insignficant damage to the early Stuarts, then all arguments are purely ethics based. Ah, but then, who are you to tell me that you are more ethical, and why should we be bent to your way of fishing. We will defend our rights to fish. Most of us old-timer bbers have bar-fished before. I still have those egg-size glos and 1lb leads plus the big bar rod in my garage. Yes, been there, done that. Boring, dozy, laid back, ineffiective,passive,...., that is all I can say. By the way, perhaps I will fish this laid-back way when I am much older, if that will please you guys of the bar-shing fraternity. ;D
By the way, if you are not locals or rich enouch to afford a boat plus a towing vehicle, your chance to secure a spot in a shore-based bar for bar-shing is very unlikely. Spent all that gas, drive all that far, leaving your family for all that time, just ending up having not a spot to fish. Have tried that before and give up to the locals. >:( ;D So, for us city folks who don't have a boat, to fish by their way is another way of saying to the bbers that they stay home and watch TV or shop in the malls with your ladies (not that it is a bad thing ;D) and leave the springs to their exclusive group.... Wow, I thought Canadians are a fair people. ;D
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Yes, been there, done that. Boring, dozy, laid back, ineffiective,passive,...., that is all I can say.
You've said it, ineffective.... That what is sporting about it.
Bottom bouncing with anything more than 2 feet of leader is flossing. Period.
How much leader do you use?
Cheers,
Nicole
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I am not debating our dear beloved lady fisher of the forum. ;D ;D
Sorry Nicole I won't ask how much lead you are using or polluting the river....
Not worth debating ethics with any bar-fishers, let alone a lady. ;D
All I say is, close the river to all sporties and let the natives do their raping of the socs (because DFO cannot enforce rules on them) toward August. Fair and square.
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I have also done bar fishing and last year I thought that it was time to take my 5 year old to show him how it is done. We left the house in the AM and headed east along hwy 7. As we do not own a boat we had to look for a bar that we could drive too. I can't remember how many bars we ended up going too but not a single bar was free to bar fish. Not only was I dissapointed but my son was as well that we did not have the opportunity to fish. So until they say that bb'ing is illegal it is the only method at this time that people can do unless they own a boat. Sorry that is just the facts.
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Steelhawk, you are a gentleman but I am a rough neck so I will debate the lady. ;)
Hmmm, sporting means looking for difficulties or challenges in fishing. I don't know if many people can agree with you there lady.
There are those who will say to you that you should only catch & release, otherwise you are a meat fisherman. There are those elitists who think your heavy bar rods and lead are not fair to the fish. There are those elite flyfishers who think your way is not an art form of fishing. There are those who think you are being cruel to the fish by your violence towards another life form on this planet..... So where do we begin to evalue ethics of fishing? ???
If flossing is allowed by DFO because no one has been ticketed for doing it, so be it. That is good enough for me. A biting fish does not feel better when it is on the dinner plate than a flossed fish... ;D
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This whole debate is very hard for me to grasp, I cannot believe the lack of respect for each other the two sides have. Back when living in Ontario every spring a local stream would flood the farm lands leaving northern pike trapped in shallow waters. In Ontario spearing pike is LEGAL, and we used to spear them while wading around in crotch deep water, although not catching the fish by a line this was still very sporting to us as you had to be really quiet and sneak up on the fish hiding in the weeds. On any given day there may be other anglers trying to catch pike on the river beside us by casting spoons, we would wave and ask them if they had any luck. There were no hard feelings between the users groups, and the spear fisherman were not looked down on by others because they choose to legally harvest fish with a spear. I know that if anyone approached me on the river and called me a snagger or spoke down to me that things would probably end in violence, and that is the last thing we need on the river.
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I am not debating our dear beloved lady fisher of the forum. ;D ;D
Sorry Nicole I won't ask how much lead you are using or polluting the river....
Not worth debating ethics with any bar-fishers, let alone a lady. ;D
All I say is, close the river to all sporties and let the natives do their raping of the socs (because DFO cannot enforce rules on them) toward August. Fair and square.
Heh! You know I'm totally ok with some debate, that's all it is...
If we saw each other on the river, I would have have a laugh about it with you... I just debating, you won't hurt my feelings.
To answer your question, I give alot of flies and gear to the river, but I pocket old line, and pack other people's garbage off the river. And yes there's probably a few pounds of lead down there somewhere, courtesy of me :)
And yes some of that lead is in the form of betties, I floss during sockeye season. I have no problem admitting that.
During spring season, we anchor the boats and fish spin n' glos with 16 inches of leader. I like seeing them hit the rod, and having to run over to set the hook. And if you miss that fish, so what. You can talk about how hard it hit...
I'm not sure yet if I want to participate in the sockeye opening, that fishery brings out the worst in me, so I think I may sit on the sidelines this year.
Sockeye sure are tasty though!
Nicole
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This whole debate is very hard for me to grasp, I cannot believe the lack of respect for each other the two sides have. Back when living in Ontario every spring a local stream would flood the farm lands leaving northern pike trapped in shallow waters. In Ontario spearing pike is LEGAL, and we used to spear them while wading around in crotch deep water, although not catching the fish by a line this was still very sporting to us as you had to be really quiet and sneak up on the fish hiding in the weeds. On any given day there may be other anglers trying to catch pike on the river beside us by casting spoons, we would wave and ask them if they had any luck. There were no hard feelings between the users groups, and the spear fisherman were not looked down on by others because they choose to legally harvest fish with a spear. I know that if anyone approached me on the river and called me a snagger or spoke down to me that things would probably end in violence, and that is the last thing we need on the river.
Hey do you have any good ways to cook pike? I have one in my freezer and I want to eat it soon, but I'm not sure the best way to cook the thing. email me nicole@dotaku.com to take this offline if you like...
Thanks!
Nicole
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Using snagging repeatedly to describe our craft shows total disrespect for other people's choice of fishing method.
Im sorry, but a spade's a spade.
I do appreciate the "fish in peace" ideal though. 8)
All other comments since that I see can be answered in my previous posts so I wont repeat them. ;D 8)
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Well, after checking out the messages for about a year on this site without posting I figured it might be time to chime in. Not simply to perpetuate a tired argument but to simply lend a perspective. I watched the thread re: bb'ing(flossing) on the board last year, and there were some good arguments and very well thought out posts. However there were also some very questionable perspectives. I've been fishing nearly since I could walk, and I guess I'm what you could call a true "die-hard". I fish year round, I chase nearly every species our waters have to offer. I fly fish, drift fish, bar fish, toss spoons, troll, plunk or whatever else it may take to "entice a fish to strike", and I consider myself fairly experienced. I worked in the sportfishing industry in a couple of different capacities, and worked on both government, and private fish habitat restoration programs. I've also taken part in numerous fisheries related protests over the years. Anyways I digress.... What I've witnessed over the last few years in lower mainland fishing is actually quite alarming, and frankly from someone that has spent countless hours in piscatorial pursuits, I might even say it's depressing. I remember very well, when flossing gained it's popularity. It was exciting because there was finally a way to catch these wily sockeye, and let's face it they're a heck of a lot of fun to catch. Everybody got out there and tried it out, and we( Heck yeah I WAS a flosser), had tons of fun. The excitement however did not last so long for many of us, once it became inherently obvious that these fish just weren't biting. They were being snagged. Just kinda took the fun out of it, and it sure adds insult to injury watching a few gorgeous springs being dragged in, snagged in the fin...or back...or belly....and many of them bonked. What really turned me off was the attitude of some participants, fights etc., and the disregard for rules and fishing ethics. Whether it's the way individuals treat one another on the river, or the way they treat their catch, there's no doubt it has entered a downward spiral since flossing gained it's place at the forefront of lower mainland fishing opportunities. As the number of fishing participants rises(and it sure seems busier year after year), there seems to be a genuine influx(on nearly every body of water) of people that just don't understand what fishing is about, and seem to lack proper etiquette. Sorry to say it but I do think the sockeye fishery is largely responsible for it. BB'ing(with a leader longer than 24in) has no place on the Fraser for springs....'cause they will bite using proper methods, and it surely has no place on any river other than the Fraser. I guess a BB'ing opening for sox, simply for harvesting purposes may be worthwhile. There is NO way to "selectively" floss, and unfortunately it is not a good practice when endangered fish of any type are in the system. But let's not forget, FISHING: the art of catching a fish by enticing it to bite, has never been easy but anybody can learn the tricks of the trade and catch their FAIR share too. Just takes time. Along the way though, you must also care for the resource, and embrace the etiquette and methods that made fishing a passion for all of us in the first place. Sorry for the rant and I know many of these points have posted already....but we've got to address the issues facing sportfishing today properly in order to protect it for the future.
Cheers,
Arnie
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Really good post Arnie.
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Yes, great post Arnie, your view on things is echoed by many experienced anglers out there... It's a real shame where things have gone... I think given what we know now, if we could go back in time, there never would have been a fight to open sockeye in the first place...
Things were pretty good until this happened, I'd be happy to let the sockeye opening go if it restored the sanity... In a heartbeat.
:(
Nicole
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As much as I respect your background, experiences and care for the fish resources, Arnie, ethics on fishing, particularly legal fishing method, is a personal thing. Debates on this have been done over & over again, so it is useless to repeat it. Just scroll back to last years & search, you will find enough points from both camps. Rants as you may, but so can we bottom bouncers rant about the holier than thou gang and the hostilities created between groups.
Your background and your reasoning for justification of fishing method may not be shared by everyone. All over the world, fish are trapped, netted, speared and what have u without people getting angry over it. This ethics thing is highly personal, political, spiritual and regional. We just saw here earlier a video link showing fishermen shooting arrows to leaping carps, and no one complain about its ethics. Even US TV news are showing the clips and no one think it is unethical.
So if flossing is allowed by DFO and legal, so be it. Don't like it, just do something else. Life is too short. For me and other bouncers, we are at peace with our fishing method, respect it. If there are more fishermen now, good. Let's share the bounties of the sea to those who want to catch them by themselves. It is better than sockeye lovers buying from natives, which will encourage more poaching and raping the fish resources from that group.
If the fear is that newbies will bottom bounce in smaller system, DFO can always restrict leader length for streams other than the Fraser. Their rules are usually stream-by-stream any way. That should ease your fear. Cheer. :)
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To answer your question, I give alot of flies and gear to the river, but I pocket old line, and pack other people's garbage off the river. And yes there's probably a few pounds of lead down there somewhere, courtesy of me :)
And yes some of that lead is in the form of betties, I floss during sockeye season. I have no problem admitting that.
I'm not sure yet if I want to participate in the sockeye opening, that fishery brings out the worst in me, so I think I may sit on the sidelines this year.
Sockeye sure are tasty though!
Nicole
I wasn't going to post on this again, but...
Do you some of you people seriously believe that just because someone bounces that they don't care about the fishery, garbage, or ethics?
My firends and I have spent many hrs cleaning up line and the mess left on the bars. We also get our limit of fish, and leave. But not before filling a garbage bag with whatever we can find. I remember last year after sockeye was closed down in early September, Chris and I went to do a clean up of one of the bars. We went and set up the bar rods then wondered the whole bar looking for garbage and were quite impressed by the lack of garbage we were able to find.
In Spring season (June and Early July) we get our one Spring and go home. It isn't about numbers. To those that don't believe that you can actually target spring over sockeye, have you ever been out and tried it, or are you just making a broad assumption? I am not saying that it is 100% affective, but if you know what to look for you can drastically cut down your chances of hooking a sockeye. I know this is going to go in one ear and out the other, so I don't really have much more to say on the subject.
Nicole, I am a bit surprised at you so loudly opposing Bouncing as you do it yourself. Don't use the line that you only do it in Sockeye season. You can't have your cake and eat it to... If you are so opposed to it, then why do you do it?
Just for the record, if you use the right gear and know how to quickly work yourself out of snags, you won't deposit much gear in the river. I always come home with more than I left with...
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers.
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Select a legal method that you enjoy and go fishing. If a Sockeye is caught when they are closed - release it unharmed. Why is this so difficult?
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Right on, BS. People think bouncing for springs does not take skill because they probably have never done it before. In any given bar you will find some bouncers having much more hook ups than anybody else consistently. There is the secret but not many good rods are willing to talk about it because they don't want all the haters to jump on them. >:(
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Everyone is starting to miss the boat here what this is all about is the fisheries making a request that people voluntarily refrain from using methods that target sockeye, which as everyone should know is bottom bouncing, people do not target sockeye bar fishing it is just too ineffective a method to bother and it is also too ineffective to have any negative impact on the fishery, nobody targets sockeye bar fishing the is an indisputable fact. They have stated that if this directive is not adhered to they will close the river for everyone for salmon fishing. So if you people don't understand this it means if enough of you keep bottom bouncing for in the river while the Stuarts are there you will be responsible for getting the whole river closed. How selfish can you be to think that you have the right to interfere with the whole salmon fishery just so you can get a few extra weeks of fishing by your method in. Do you people realize the amount of work and dedication that so many people have put in to get the river open to sports fishing and keep it that way. Lets not quibble over wording here when the fisheries says methods that target sockeye everyone knows what they are talking about, nobody is that stupid, the fisheries know what they are talking about, do they have to close the river for everyone before you believe them, please before you go out bouncing think of your fellow fishermen because I'm sure if the river gets closed they'll be thinking of you.
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Don't use the line that you only do it in Sockeye season. You can't have your cake and eat it to... If you are so opposed to it, then why do you do it?
Ummm, I do believe that you yourself have made comments on how flossing does not belong on rivers other than the fraser. SO, if you are opposed to Flossing on small rivers, then why do you do it on big rivers.
Don't take that comment personally, i'm just using you as an example. Everyone needs to step back and look at the situation and what they are saying from as objective and unbiased position they can. Really it does not matter whether your Flossing the fish or "Enticing them to bite". The truth is we all love to fish. And unless you realize that what you need to be fighting about is the protection of those so highly regarded fish, we will all be telling our grandchildren of days past when the rivers used to have salmon that migrated to them.
Stop the holier than thou crap and move on to the real issue.
(Edit) I'll also add: Everyone knows what the DFO notice is asking of the recreational sector. DO NOT BOTTOM BOUNCE. Yes the wording may be left to interpretation, so it is likely that you would not get ticketed if you were caught. However please realize that your actions will effect those who are abiding by the request. Don't be selfish.
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Nicole, I am a bit surprised at you so loudly opposing Bouncing as you do it yourself. Don't use the line that you only do it in Sockeye season. You can't have your cake and eat it to... If you are so opposed to it, then why do you do it?
I'm opposed to using 20 feet of leader to do so... You don't need more than 2 feet to present the bait...
Cheers,
Nicole
Are we done yet?
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:-*
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Hehe, this one never really changes year to year does it? It will come down to strict regulations and closures even though more and more are seeing this snaggery for what it is. Mark my words on that.
But it is interesting to discuss it. I might go out on a limb to say that an increased level of respect is being shown on both sides. Two years ago, I dont think we could have made it to page 3 without a lot of ugly words and hurt feelings being traded. ;D
One last(?) thought.
Why is snagging, as defined in the regulations, illegal? Ask yourself that.
This 'bottom bouncing' or 'flossing' is clearly a snagging act. The intention for snagging is there or efforts to increase the chance to 'hook/snag' a fish wouldnt be made (ie leaders growing in length on a yearly basis, when I did it, 6' was considered LONG)
So why is there surprise that something that was once illegal for good reason but is now 'legal' is causing all the problems and concerns that are being shared here? Just because someone has figured out a way to snag but not get in trouble for doing it, does it change the fact that you are STILL snagging? Not at all.
Kudo's to big steel for his efforts to clean the river. While no one can take that away from him, it makes no difference to the issue at hand here. If I used a big treble hook to snag steelhead, but took a bag of garbage out with me, would that make everything ok in the end?
Also, in my opinion, it makes no difference what goes on in the US or across the world in regards to 'fishing'. That's apples to oranges.
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Kudo's to big steel for his efforts to clean the river. While no one can take that away from him, it makes no difference to the issue at hand here. If I used a big treble hook to snag steelhead, but took a bag of garbage out with me, would that make everything ok in the end?
It is a huge difference as a treble hook is defined as illegal and bouncing is not. Maybe read the regs.
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All the sockeye you got last year, were on a 2ft leader ??
All two of them were flossed on 10 feet of leader...
That is the sockeye flossery though, and nothing to be proud of that's for sure.
Sockeye don't bite. But springs do, they can be caught sportingly, and they should be.
Cheers,
Nicole
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If you guys and gals could bottom bounce and there was a leader restriction of 24 inches, would you be okay with that? Its still not selective, but at least less area can be covered without intercepting fish.
How does the anti camp think, and is there any sense about what lawmakers think about it?
Cheers,
Nicole
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One of the biggest achievements in all this could be to see that snagging with a treble hook or a hook on the end of a 20' leader is the exact same thing. Both are snagging and both carry the same burdens and dangers that accompany one of the biggest no-no's in sport angling. This is regardless if regulations have the ability to cover all ways to perform the same activity. I, personally, think it's pretty silly to rely ONLY on the "oh, but it's legal" without thinking for one's self (or telling me WHY snagging is defined as illegal in the regulations) ;D.
Fishfreak, ever heard of the "if someone jumped off a cliff..." saying? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Quit preaching. Put your efforts to something more useful. No one is going to be convinced to stop flossing because of your OPINION. They will make the decision themselves. These debates are repeated nearly word for word every year. Why don't we all just put our opinions on the topic in our signature, that way everyone gets their words in, and we all know where everyone stands on the topic at all times. Then we can stop these pointless debates and focus our energy on something more productive. But as with my last post, this one will likely fall on deaf ears.
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I believe when the 40 page document Sports Angling behavior on the Chilliwack Vedder River that a number of people have been working on for a few months with input from FOC and MOE and is made public in a few days you will see changes are comming.
Also the SFAC sub committee made up of anglers from all sides of the debate with more participation once again from FOC and MOE staff is working on another document. This group is charged with looking at fishing ethics on the Fraser River and will complete their work in a few months.
This forum as well as others will then see that what has been posted here was not a lot of people blowing smoke but dealing fairly and proactively with this topic. Many hours of work has gone into these two separate groups and I feel their time has not been wasted. It will be for you all to judge of course but more than just talk has been taking place I can assure you.
I am pleased with that fact.
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Looking forward to seeing these proposals.
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Looking forward to seeing these proposals.
Yes I am sure it will quelle this debate somewhat. How long until we start rolling, rolling, rolling right along ;D ;D ;D once again.
Please do not say 2067. ;D ;D ;D
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Well, after checking out the messages for about a year on this site without posting I figured it might be time to chime in. Not simply to perpetuate a tired argument but to simply lend a perspective. I watched the thread re: bb'ing(flossing) on the board last year, and there were some good arguments and very well thought out posts. However there were also some very questionable perspectives. I've been fishing nearly since I could walk, and I guess I'm what you could call a true "die-hard". I fish year round, I chase nearly every species our waters have to offer. I fly fish, drift fish, bar fish, toss spoons, troll, plunk or whatever else it may take to "entice a fish to strike", and I consider myself fairly experienced. I worked in the sportfishing industry in a couple of different capacities, and worked on both government, and private fish habitat restoration programs. I've also taken part in numerous fisheries related protests over the years. Anyways I digress.... What I've witnessed over the last few years in lower mainland fishing is actually quite alarming, and frankly from someone that has spent countless hours in piscatorial pursuits, I might even say it's depressing. I remember very well, when flossing gained it's popularity. It was exciting because there was finally a way to catch these wily sockeye, and let's face it they're a heck of a lot of fun to catch. Everybody got out there and tried it out, and we( Heck yeah I WAS a flosser), had tons of fun. The excitement however did not last so long for many of us, once it became inherently obvious that these fish just weren't biting. They were being snagged. Just kinda took the fun out of it, and it sure adds insult to injury watching a few gorgeous springs being dragged in, snagged in the fin...or back...or belly....and many of them bonked. What really turned me off was the attitude of some participants, fights etc., and the disregard for rules and fishing ethics. Whether it's the way individuals treat one another on the river, or the way they treat their catch, there's no doubt it has entered a downward spiral since flossing gained it's place at the forefront of lower mainland fishing opportunities. As the number of fishing participants rises(and it sure seems busier year after year), there seems to be a genuine influx(on nearly every body of water) of people that just don't understand what fishing is about, and seem to lack proper etiquette. Sorry to say it but I do think the sockeye fishery is largely responsible for it. BB'ing(with a leader longer than 24in) has no place on the Fraser for springs....'cause they will bite using proper methods, and it surely has no place on any river other than the Fraser. I guess a BB'ing opening for sox, simply for harvesting purposes may be worthwhile. There is NO way to "selectively" floss, and unfortunately it is not a good practice when endangered fish of any type are in the system. But let's not forget, FISHING: the art of catching a fish by enticing it to bite, has never been easy but anybody can learn the tricks of the trade and catch their FAIR share too. Just takes time. Along the way though, you must also care for the resource, and embrace the etiquette and methods that made fishing a passion for all of us in the first place. Sorry for the rant and I know many of these points have posted already....but we've got to address the issues facing sportfishing today properly in order to protect it for the future.
Cheers,
Arnie
Nicely put Arnie. Most of us have participated as you once did but it is very positive to see more people giving up this activity every year. This year there was many that would be out after chinook now but they are starting to come around and the resource will be the benefit of this in the future. High water of course does make a difference also.
With the request notice now out and I have been sent a few hundred by FOC today to distribute to some more tackle shops I believe most anglers will refrain from this activity for the next few weeks and until there is a possible sockeye opening in August. Remembering at the same time the forcast is for no sockeye openings in 2008 because of conservation concerns. These anglers know that if they want fishing opportunities for their children and grandchildren in the years ahead they will have to make changes, we all will.
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Like I said, relentless lobbying by well-connected individuals to shut the bottom bouncers down even though we do not catch sockeyes in early season. DFO should send their observers out to watch how many sockeyes are actually caught accidentally by bottom bouncers in early season, insteading of listening to biased opinion of a few flossing haters. The bottom bouncers are the majority and yet they have no say. So much for fairness and democratic process. The vocal minority group who knows the insiders of DFO overrides the wishes of the majority of fishermen on the Fraser. The end result will be a lot more business for the natives from those who have acquired sockeye taste and yet barred from catching the fish by themselves. The sins of all those additionally poached sockeyes will be upon those who have their hands in encouraging such happening directly or indirectly. I hope by then those who manage to shut down sockeyes fishery through their influence will have the gut to face up to the natives and save the sockeyes from the their drift nets and illegal poaching. Good luck there.
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DFO should send their observers out to watch how many sockeyes are actually caught accidentally by bottom bouncers in early season, insteading of listening to biased opinion of a few flossing haters. The bottom bouncers are the majority and yet they have no say.
LOL they have no say because they have no one (shy of a few like Bill Otway) willing to step up and represent them. Where are the Chris Gadsden's of the flossing community? Don't b!tch about something that is entirely up to your user group. You never hear about all the Pro-Flossing activists, because there are VERY few. Most are passive not active.
I still think everyone should include in their signature or under their avatar their Flossing stance. Pro-Flossing, Anti-Flossing, or in my case Pro-Choice.
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From todays Vancouver Sun
A group of Fraser River first nations plans to defy on Canada Day the federal government's no-fishing edict aimed at protecting the prized early Stuart sockeye run.
Members of three bands are heading to Yale, where they are expected to be met by federal fisheries officers if the dry-rack fishery goes ahead Sunday.
A native leader said the three bands are convinced the early Stuart run isn't threatened by the planned fishery.
He urged federal enforcement officers, engaged in some tense clashes on the Fraser River in past years, to be cautious.
"I'm thinking about the safety of the elders and children," said Grand Chief Doug Kelly of the Sto:lo Tribal Council.
The Cheam, Chawathil and Seabird Island bands are taking part in the fishery.
Federal spokeswoman Michelle Imbeau said Friday that government officials have discussed with native groups the need for a three- to four-week closure of the native food, social and ceremonial fisheries on the Lower Fraser to protect the early Stuart run.
"Fishery officers will be monitoring the situation and will be taking the necessary enforcement actions," Imbeau said in an e-mail to The Vancouver Sun.
Conservative MP John Cummins said the early Stuart is weak because Fraser River bands have consistently overfished the run.
"It's totally irresponsible for these guys to be fishing because if there's not many there it doesn't take a whole lot to put the run at risk," said the MP for Delta-Richmond East.
The federal government estimates there will be 45,000 early Stuart, 690,000 early summer, 3.4 million summer and 2.1 million late summer sockeye.
So much for conservation........on the flip side theres probably going to be some $10 Sockeye for sale.
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Thanks Chris, and 2:40 for your comments as well. Chris..I sincerely look forward to checking out the proposals. Definitely a leap in the right direction. As this debate rages on, year after year, I notice that people like to hide behind the "he's being elitist"....."he thinks he's better than me because he doesn't floss", cry. I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself when I assure you that I don't believe this to be an elitist movement. Like I said, I flossed...for sockeye. This was before it became commonplace for people to use the technique on springs. And it was fun for a while, until I realized the larger impact the practice was having on fishing as a whole. Some of my best fishing friends(many of whom are very good rods), still floss...and they're still my very close friends...though we debate this all the time(and many of them are now stopping at least for springs:)..). Like I said in my first and only post so far, I hate the idea of coming on here to perpetuate an argument, and most points that needed to be made have been. I have some valid suggestions though:
Let's not hide, and use the defense of "calling the other side elitist" as a shield. Let's look at our angling practices, and the way they impact the sport with an open mind, regardless of what we enjoy doing.
Let's acknowledge the fact that there is a proverbial "loophole" in the regs, that is allowing many anglers to practice flossing....and merely shoving our heads in the sand and refusing to stop until DFO forces us to, is not forward thinking at all. It is OUR responsibility to do it or not do it, and we shouldn't need to have someone else tell us whether it's right or wrong.
Acknowledge the fact that flossing is by all terms and definition "snagging"(which is illegal)! One in the same. Put aside whether or not it's ok to "snag" your two sox, at the height of the run purely for harvest purposes. Is it ok in your book of angling to snag springs, coho, chums, rainbow trout or cuttthroat? If so then I suggest that you did miss something along the way and you SHOULD, rethink your angling practices.
Bottom bouncing has also become a great term to hide behind. Flossing(snagging), and BB'ing have somehow become synonomous. They are however 2 different things. BB'ing is a perfectly legal, and traditional method of presenting your bait without a float and is one of the most common methods used on rivers south of the border for Steelhead and Salmon. They refer to it as "drift-fishing". It will always have a place on both Cdn, and US rivers.... but I assure you the leader length is nearly always under 24in, and the method is used to entice a strike.
Flossing is snagging plain and simple. If you think that flossing is an "art" you are sadly mistaken. Sure there are guys that have developed tricks, use fireline, taken leaders to exorbitant lengths...in an effort to refine the technique of flossing but it's still snagging....and I hate to break it to you it's got to be the easiest way in the world to hook fish. In fact I've taught 6 year olds the technique and had them master it, in minutes.lol. Sorry guys it's not an art but a method to enjoy the sockeye harvest. So if we're going to hit the Fraser for springs and plan on "flossing", let's refer to it by it's rightful name instead of insisting that we are bb'ing....artfully.
The only way things can or will change, is if people maintain an open mind. They have to be willing to alter techniques and or practices for the better of the sport or the sport itself is in serious trouble. In the meantime all that can be done, is those that are willing must put in the time and direct their efforts through the proper channels to make a difference. I sincerely thank those that are!!
Cheers,
Arnie
PS: Just saw Troutbreath's post as I prepare to post this. Ouch!!!! Wish more effort could be focused on solving this issue.:(
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From todays Vancouver Sun
A native leader said the three bands are convinced the early Stuart run isn't threatened by the planned fishery.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion. That however does not mean every opinion is valid.
How many of these first nations have Marine Biology degrees and have studied the pacific salmon?? My guess would be zero, yet somehow they still think they know more than the experts.
Ignorance is Bliss
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The end result will be a lot more business for the natives from those who have acquired sockeye taste and yet barred from catching the fish by themselves. The sins of all those additionally poached sockeyes will be upon those who have their hands in encouraging such happening directly or indirectly.
Give me a break. Where does taking responsibility for one's actions and choices come into play here? Weak arguement IMO. :P
Arnie, another great post. ;D 8)
DionJL, I thought the same thing to myself when I read that in the paper. While I respect that things have evolved from birchbark canoes and spears, I wasnt aware that their dryracks now come with DNA testing ability. ::)
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What are people going to do when they see $10 dollar sockeye for sale? Buy them.
People are looking for deals, and couldn't care less that they're buying an endangered fish from the back door salesmen... This practice has been going on since civilaization in BC began, and it will continue. Like illegal drugs, there will always be a flow as there are always eager customers.
So the best we can do is try and educate the public about what kind of sockeye are bought at different times of the year, and somehow create a stigma for those buying the Stuarts.
I'm not sure how to handle it any other way, DFO has had some clashes with Cheam, and is no longer going on site after a very serious altercation.
Maybe angry fishermen can do their own blockage, and block all the roads leading on and off the fishing grounds, so the fish can't be sold. Sounds pretty extreme, but I don't know what else to do.
:(
Nicole
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Maybe angry fishermen can do their own blockage, and block all the roads leading on and off the fishing grounds, so the fish can't be sold. Sounds pretty extreme, but I don't know what else to do.
:(
Nicole
That is pretty extreme. We would end up with the same result as what happened in Ontario. The non-native would get arresested. Also I am sure they would be armed as it seems perfectly legal for them to carry rifles.
Oh look at the time. Time to hit the lake with the kids. Tight lines all.
PS. there will be no flossing at the lake just pure fun with my kids and the dog.
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Gol darn natives thinking that just cuz nobodies arresting them or charging them with anything makes what they are doing legal and ethical I wonder where they would get an idea like that. We should remember here that until recently the natives were only allotted 5% of the Fraser River fish catch while the commercials took 90% and while I don't deny that recent changes to this have put the natives in a position where they can have adverse affects on the runs it is the gross mismanagement of the commercial fisheries that put the runs in danger in the first place meanwhile the commercials fly beneath the radar and let the two minority players in the fishing industry fight it out with each other. Remember there's one white guy that used to be car salesman in BC that has the "right" to more of the Fraser River sockeye than ther government just gave to all of the Musqueum band. It was just mentioned that the natives have been selling fish to the white men since the white man came to BC, if I were native I might consider that some sort of precedent. Don't want to be too controversial here but there's more than one side to every story.
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Just thought I'd mention this, that it's not natives buying the fish it's legitimate businesses, cafes, restaurants, commercial packing houses, grocery stores if you shut down the markets you will shut down the illegal fishery. If you can fine somebody $50,000 for poaching an elk why can't you put a minimum fine of, say $10,000 for buying an illegally caught sockeye that would make any business think twice before they bought and it would be impossible for your average merchant to prove he had an constitutional right to buy that fish. Without the drug addicts nobody could make a living being a drug dealer.
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On one part of the Fraser River today I was given a report that 14 anglers were BB,ing and 11 of them took home a chinook. ::) ??? No numbers were given of number of sockeye taken by this group but was told 2 Early Stuarts were taken in the Whonnock test fishing boat.
Will have to check the test fishery results at Cottonwood as well.
I also was told illegal drift netting was also going on with FOC called and dealt with two incidents.
As well I was informed FOC was out in force checking all fishers.
While I was out checking the river early this morning I saw Agassiz Search and Rescue and they had just recovered a person who had fallen off the Hope Bridge this morning. :( Person was found near Ruby Creek.
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On one part of the Fraser River today I was given a report that 14 anglers were BB,ing and 11 of them took home a chinook. ::) ??? No numbers were given of number of sockeye taken by this group but was told 2 Early Stuarts were taken in the Whonnock test fishing boat.
Will have to check the test fishery results at Cottonwood as well.
I also was told illegal drift netting was also going on with FOC called and dealt with two incidents.
As well I was informed FOC was out in force checking all fishers.
While I was out checking the river early this morning I saw Agassiz Search and Rescue and they had just recovered a person who had fallen off the Hope Bridge this morning. :( Person was found near Ruby Creek.
Yes the flossing boys took a truck load home today...(so I've heard) lots of boats out today from what I could hear from the house......
Ruby Cr. From Hope! holy cow, was the guy still alive? I think not.... :-\
Mike <"))))><
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On one part of the Fraser River today I was given a report that 14 anglers were BB,ing and 11 of them took home a chinook. ::) ??? No numbers were given of number of sockeye taken by this group but was told 2 Early Stuarts were taken in the Whonnock test fishing boat.
Will have to check the test fishery results at Cottonwood as well.
I also was told illegal drift netting was also going on with FOC called and dealt with two incidents.
As well I was informed FOC was out in force checking all fishers.
While I was out checking the river early this morning I saw Agassiz Search and Rescue and they had just recovered a person who had fallen off the Hope Bridge this morning. :( Person was found near Ruby Creek.
Yes the flossing boys took a truck load home today...(so I've heard) lots of boats out today from what I could hear from the house......
Ruby Cr. From Hope! holy cow, was the guy still alive? I think not.... :-\
Mike <"))))><
Thanks for verifying the report I was given. Too bad that a good number of people are not heeding FOC request. :( :-[Not good news.
You are correct unfortunately, the fellow did not survive. :(
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This is my 4th year reading about the flossing debates on these fishing forums. Sure doesnt change much. Everything on these forums falls on deaf ears so whats the point of debating it. I am no longer getting involved in these debates. If you strongly disagree try to do something about it. Nobody can do anything by writing on a forum. The time and energy it takes to debate this issue could be better served by writing where it can possibly make a difference. People that floss are going to floss, people that dont wont. Its not like we are preaching to 10 year old kids where you can change their minds because they are easily influenced. You are speaking to adults whose minds are already made up.
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This is my 4th year reading about the flossing debates on these fishing forums. Sure doesnt change much. Everything on these forums falls on deaf ears so whats the point of debating it. I am no longer getting involved in these debates. If you strongly disagree try to do something about it. Nobody can do anything by writing on a forum. The time and energy it takes to debate this issue could be better served by writing where it can possibly make a difference. People that floss are going to floss, people that dont wont. Its not like we are preaching to 10 year old kids where you can change their minds because they are easily influenced. You are speaking to adults whose minds are already made up.
As stated above, in a few posts a number of people are. This is the first year two separate committee were formed to come up with changes that will be good for the fish. Also as I believe I mentioned FOC and MOE staff were both at the table and had and added input. One can do not much more as the government will be the one that have the final say in what changes may be needed
As I stated before one committee's report is nearly ready to be released and for those interested they will be able to read it here.
I agree with you, not much more debate is needed as over 6 months of meetings with anglers, FOC, and MOE these committees has discussed most of the things mentioned here on this thread.
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From todays Vancouver Sun
A native leader said the three bands are convinced the early Stuart run isn't threatened by the planned fishery.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion. That however does not mean every opinion is valid.
How many of these first nations have Marine Biology degrees and have studied the pacific salmon?? My guess would be zero, yet somehow they still think they know more than the experts.
Ignorance is Bliss
A guess of zero would be bliss as you put it!
Hotrod
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Chris its good to have you guys going to bat for the fish and all but im starting to wonder what this game is all about?
You mention that you had a meeting and that there were reps from fisheries there.
Did anyone tell them that there wording of notices about selective methods really sucks.
They are the ones playing the game here as they dont have the balls to say what needs to be said.
NO BOTTOM BOUNCING is what they should have in the regs and not a wishy washy notice thats asks the fishermen to play nice and use selective methods.
I agree with an earlier poster who said that fisheries just loves to see us fighting among ourselves over something that to me is a cut and dry issue.
Bottom bouncing is snagging and snagging is illegal.Period.
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If flossing is snagging according to DFO, then why no tickets were issued? Do you ever think that DFO is ever kind to offenders? They jump you with fines in no time if you fish with no valid license, with barbed hook, or any other violations in their book. Come on, wake up. You guys are taking interpretation of the DFO 'holy book' to the extreme in this area that even DFO does not intend to read it this way. We have debated this point like million times before so there is no need to debate further on it. I know what happen when extremists take some holy books of the world to a narrow and extreme view to fit their own political agenda - intolerance, hatred, war and violence. I understand and respect the sincere intent of some distinguished individuals who belong to the anti BB group. They care about fish resources and fishing methods. But if DFO allows the practice of flossing, why is it that you folks don't have the open mind to respect and accept other's choice of legal fishing method. Fish in peace. Don't defame and belittle your fellow fishermen, many of them care for fish resources and fishing environment just like you.
This is for those who has the open mind - fish a bar near Hope yesterday with two greenies in the afternoon. First trip of the year for me and their first in life. Chris is right in the good # of springs caught though we may be on a different bar. The river much be loaded with them now. I had a 44lb giant on and fought for 45 minutes to land it. Then came back to coach the greenie with a better presentation and he hooked and landed a 34lber. He felt out of the world. Sure happy to see a face worth a million. Saw another 5 others landed but much smaller in the teens. I don't think I will report our springs with photos, just so that some of you will not be infuriated more. I| am beginning to think that this web site is so dominated with vocal and influential anti bbing members that I will gradually fade out my writings on this site and find another more open-minded site, so there will be more peace for both me and others. This kind of infighting with name calling and labelling is so hurtul and dividing that is not necessary for the fishermen brotherhood. Leave the fishing rules to the DFO and there will be much more peace in fishing community.
Just fish in peace. Be kind to your fellow fishermen. The real threat to fish stocks are not us who fish with one barbless hook and one rod, and who just try to get a fresh fish home to bless their families, not by $10 bill, but by their hard fought tired body. Turn your energy to the natives and their potent drift nets & their illegal poaching. Their potent fishing method plus their tendency to defy DFO will decimate fish stocks. If caring for fish resources is your concern, that is where you can do much good for the fish. Perhaps chain yourself to a native boat heading out to defy DFO.... ;D ;D
By the way, their was not a single sockeye hooked in our entire bar, for the entire 7 hours we were there. (The last greenie could not hook his fish so we gave up finally after 7 hours). Relax, we are not the threat to the early Stuarts. Go to the reserve to protest them. They will be the one to wipe out that stock.
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Justify it by any means you feel necessary.
Its snagging.
PS you wont find another site that is more tolerant with flossers than this one and i dont envy Rod at this time of year when this topic comes up time after time.
As long as this subject is around you can bet to see my name somewhere in the mix because iv e stood against this practice since the first years it was introduced.
Its simply wrong wrong wrong and if telling yourself that because DFO doesnt enforce it makes it ok then keep telling yourself that it must be ok to do.
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:-*
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Yesterday I talked to a fisher next to me about internet forums. He admitted that he was a former member but was so offended by comments made by some members here that it turned him off. Too bad our mods are letting people here to label, name call, and attack other fishers on the forum. Any reference to bbing as snagging or calling bbers as snaggers should be warned or his post edited. These are offensive comments because people are fishing a method allowed by DFO, like it or not. So if you don't like to eat sushi, does it give you right to trash people who do as barbarians eating raw meat, for example? Just because you don't like flossing does not give you the right to make offensive comments about bbers whose method is allowed by DFO, who authors the reg. book and knows more about their rules than any anti-floss person. Until DFO officially outlaw flossiing, no one has the right to be the holier than thou judge. You can harbour your opinion or discuss things civilly, but when trashing of bbing occurs publicly in a fishing forum, the mods should caution these posters, otherwise the forum are turning off people. I say if you have a strong opinion against bbing, there is another site which claims this as part of their mission. At least we can choose not to be a part of that site. It is important for a site to claim what it stands for and take action when some one crosses the line. When the term Snagging is used against bbers, the posters should be warned that DFO has not determined that flossing is snagging and that such reference is not welcome. This site is known to be fair & inclusive. However, I am afraid the anti-floss group is taking over because their offensive comments go unchecked. Too bad. It seems the old Oliver of fishbc (whom has been warned often there) is now here having a free hand to trash and bash bbers >:( I wish some of these bb trashers will go into a PETA or flyfishing forums and promote the art of bar-fishing, then take all the offensive comments thrown in their way, to come to term what they are doing to the bbers.
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:-*
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According to you its illegal, but according to the people that right the rules in the synopsis over ride what you think..
One, ok two, of the biggest achivements in this annual debate could be as follows:
1) To admit that this 'bottom bouncing' is snagging (sorry Steelhawk, but a rose by any other name smells just as sweet, dont want to be called a snagger? Quit doing it! :o )
2) To realize that this form of SNAGGING is currently impossible to regulate. This doesnt mean it ISNT snagging, it only means it isnt ENFORCABLE. It's snagging through and through and carries the same problems snagging with a triple hook brings. Actually, 'flossing' snagging brings a new deminsion of problems because it isnt currently ENFORCEABLE.
You guys wont be able to hide behind the "It's legal" game much longer and since I see no other excuses/reasons/justifications given to snag fish during our yearly debates on the topic, it could be interesting! ;D ;D ;D
Ill throw in a third:
3) To understand that MOST of this concern isnt about harvest numbers in general, but to what it brings to SPORT angling. While correct to have concerns about drift nets, dont bring those in and try to cloud this important topic with it.
Rodney's doing a great job. You'll never please them all no matter how hard one tries.
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Yup soon the river will be shut down to all because of the crusade of a select few and if you think that that will not happen then keep ;D ;D ;D . Like you said it is too hard to enforce. If you have information to back your be littleing of the bbing 2:40 then why do you not put the proofe out for all to see or are you going to hide behind a document that does not exist.
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2:40 thinks the world of fishing has to follow what he thinks and nothing else justifies, even DFO intention on their rules. You talk like you are the spokesman of DFO. Ya, why not get a job there to make your hallucination come true. Not Enforceable? Dreaming... DFO officers were in all the popular flossing bars checking licenses and barbed hooks while fish were landed left & right of them. They never bother to examine the hook on its exact location of the mouth, which they can do so easily if they define snagging as you do. So are you accusing DFO personnel as ignorant of their rules, incompetent or lazy? Why not go to them to tell them that? Good luck. ;D
We all know sometimes when a person is brain washed, nothing else will matter. When I said in an earlier post that fish were netted, trapped, speared or shot all over the world with no one questioning its ethics, you just summariily brush it off to say it is irrelevant without anything to back up your argument. Why? a foreign fish is not a fish? That fishing ethics is owned by you and a few bar-fishers here in BC? That is blatant arrogance, trying to dictate your narrow definition of fishing ethics to many many people who come from very different background. DFO makes the rules, not you, nor you are their spokesman. Say what you want, but back it up with sound reasons, otherwise your statement is just hallow and biased.l
By the way Rod, apolgize to put you on the spot. You didn't start the thread to discuss ethics of fishing. I have full empathy on your tough position trying to balance the needs of both camps on this issue. You have always been the cool-headed guy. Stay cool & neutral. But I think when some one is making repeated offensive statement when the matter is a grey area, it is worthwihile to caution posters (too bad it takes too much time though). I stand to be cautioned if my response to 2:40 is a bit too personal. But only acting in self-defence because of his repeated attacks on us. Sorry. :P :P
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Or just say NO SPORTS FISHING to be fair. When a bar rig is thrown to the sockeye travel lane, its chance off hooking a sockeye is not any less than those of us targeting springs in the strong deep flow this early part of the season. I support closing the river to all in the last weeki of July until sockeye opening. This will be fair to all and not a single sockeye will be hooked by anyone except those natives who will defy DFO no matter what.
To the extent that bbing in the early season does not really hook into socs much, the bbers should be given their rights to target springs just like the bar fishers. Forcing people to bar-fish is to say that if you live in town w/o a boat, you have no share of the springs, because you will not find a good shore-based spot to bar fish as the locals claim those spots at first light. The trips are a waste of time & money. This has been my experience and many others.
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Steelhawk: If a fish doesn't bite, yet you still hook it what do you call that?
I think Rodney does a great job. Although I'd like to see him show some balls and come out with a post describing exactly where he stands on the topic. ;D
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I'd like to see him show some balls...
:o ;)
My stand on the issue is expressed at where changes can take place. :) The discussion forum is a great place to inform and be informed, but trying to make annonymous individuals believe in where I stand is not effective. The best one can do is to provide all the information, let others make up their own mind.
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First of all if anybody deserves warning bars it is those that have taken it upon themselves to name 2;40 outright and point at him.
Nobody has gotten personal other than those people and as far as i am concerned i blanket all BB,ers with the same brush.
I have buddies that do it and thats there choice.
This is not me against you.
This is me against bottom bouncing .
At first those that did it swore that they were actually hooking these biting fish because the hook was in the mouth.
Now that everyone agrees that the hook is catching/snagging the fish and not the fish biting the hook they say it is a harvest.
Somehow now it is supposed to be ok for fishers to BB for Chinook.
Come on people,just because there are fish in the river it doesnt mean that we can harvest them with any method we choose.
What ever happened to waiting for the right conditions for a fish to be able to actually see a lure?
It seems as though we have been caught up in a time when we think these fish are for harvesting and nothing to do with sport or enjoying your time on the water.
A right to harvest our share so to speak.
Sad times indeed.
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Firstlight, 2:40 has repeatedly name me in prior posts. So, are you so biased as to not even spot that? Funny how people only read what they want to read.
So, as this debate is getting personal, it is time for me to stop. You think your position can affect those of us who believe in bringing a fish home with a method allowed by DFO and that we have to bend to your narrorw view about fishing, don't waste time. We don't think we are convincing you die heart anti flossers either. We are trying to talk to the lurkers who are confused, or to prevent individuals to become bb haters as you folks try to do. It affects the united purpose of fishermen brotherhood. If any individual think flossing is snagging, be my guest. We won't miss you in the crowded bar. Stay away. We and DFO do not share such interpretation, so we will enjoy our fishing regardless what you think.
I will restate my position - I support closing the river to all users from last week of July until Sockeye opening, and I support the restriction of leader length to smaller systems like the Vedder.
Well,, I think enough said and time to retire to my fishing in peace. Enjoy the summer guys. No response forth coming. Rodney will have an easier job if every one backs off a bit. ;D
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Snagging should have no place in sports fishing. I went out flossing sockeye last season for the first time ever and proved to myself that it definitely was snagging a fish and not enticing a fish bite. If you want to snag fish and bend the fishing regulations that is your choice...but don`t be surprised when you are called to the plate for being a fish snagger.
I know a person who snags with big lead weights and triple hooks, he has been doing this his whole long life. I don`t rat on him to the authorities and I don`t hold it against him. Even if he was caught and charged he would still go snagging...it`s in his blood for some reason. I look at flossers the same way, you might as all just use big lead weights and triple hooks and rip the water with it. It would probably be more effective than flossing and at least you would be a true out and out snagger, not someone bending the regulations a bit and then getting upset your type of fishing method is getting picked on...Like it was ever really a legit means of sport fishing in the first place.
Thanks for letting this thread go on Rodney, many of us despite our points of view will wind up fishing together through out the season on different waters, I personally don`t hold any grudges with any of the posters in the thread and always look forward to meeting folks on the flow.
Cheers
Nuggy
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Now instead of turning this into a debate why not let this post be about numbers.
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I promised myself I would never let this or any other debate get personal/ugly again and that's where it seems to be heading. So Im going to stand by my previous posts that have many unanswered questions/comments and cover all the comments in the previous posts too. Ill continue my efforts that hold the best chance of bringing about change to maintain angling for what it was and was intended to be. Just in case anyone's worried. ;)
Thanks to all for the 9 1/2 pages of healthy discussion. 8)
Thanks Firstlight. :D
Nicely said on the last paragraph Nuggy. 8)
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Nuggy, what the hell are you talking about ???
Flossing, Bottom Bouncing is not illegal so how is someone BENDING THE REGULATIONS ???
BENDING THE REGULATIONS is letting this perosn you know use a treble hook.
FLOSSING FISH IS LEGAL IF IT WASNT DFO WOULD BE HANDING OUT TICKETS AND THERE NOT !!!!
how is this bending the regulations..
Freak...you know the answer to your own question just like many who are reading and or replying. It is your choice to do what you wanna do.
I am not telling you what to do, you wouldn`t listen to me anyways ;)
These are the facts as I know them to be true.
1. Flossing a fish is not an attempt at enticing the fish to bite your offering. The line slides through the fishes mouth and *snags* the fish in various parts of the body including the mouth with the hook. Because of a loophole in the regulations flossing/snagging fish is currently allowed.
2. Sport Fishing heritage in B.C has nothing to do with snagging. It is a tradition handed down of different varieties of angling that has a main objective to entice a fish to bite at your natural or artificial presentation on the end of a Rod and line.
I am not a preacher here and I`m not stopping anyone from flossing.
Nuggy
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Well said freak ;D . Does fly fishing a nymph pattern count as bottom bouncing as you use micro shots to tick the bottom to present the fly properply. This method does entice a fish (trout) to bite so for this I vote for sport. If you mean the fraser then I would vote for harvest. I guess bottom bouncing means so many things I guess DFO would have to define what it is before they can dem it illegal. I hope that the document that so many people have been working on defines it properly before they say that my methods of nymph fishing is illegal or the methods they use on other systems to entice a fish to bite.
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The longer DFO can keep us fishermen fighting against each other the better for them. This way, we will never focus all of attention on the real issues with the fishery. Don't ask me to name them they have been brought up time and time again in this thread.
The notice recommending a selective fishery has such a wide margin for error who knows what they are really talking about. I know that this will once again fall on deaf ears, but oh well. Today I went out, selected a spot that I know from years experience has not produced sockeye in the early season. I fished for about 10 min, caught a 22 lb spring and then sat in the boat and when bored from that, I wondered around. This fish was caught pretty much exactly where I figured it would be and not on a 20' leader either. This is the way I fish selectively. Not one sockeye was hooked or even seen, but we did see a nice Spring clear water right where he should have, and was no where near anyplace one with any experiece fishing early spring would have looked for a Sockeye.
So say what you want, I know, along with others that I fish with that it is possible to fish for Springs and not catch a sockeye if you know what you are doing and where to go. This will be the last I post on this thread. I just don't get it. It baffles me as to how so many fishermen can bash other fishermen for the way they fish all the while stepping back from and ignoring real issues that are actually having and impact on the fishery. Wake up. If The Salmon stocks fall it won't be because of the sport fishery. Or will it, because we faught against each other instead of uniting to work on the real problems.
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Dave ,this is a sport fishing forum and thats why i post what i do.
It wouldnt make any sense talking about Native and Commi fishing here as it isnt a Native or Commercial fishing site.
We should police ourselves before pointing fingers at other groups.
The Chinook fishery is taking a huge beating with this fishery and its not only about the Sockeye.
It used to be that when the river was unfishable it meant just that.
When your snagging fish it really doesnt matter on the colour of the river.
I also dont think that fish caught by this method should become part of fishing reports because it isnt sportfishing in my eyes.Just harvesting,what ever the heck thats supposed to mean.
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Here I told myself I wasnt going to get involved and here I go. I really dont have a problem with the sockeye fishery anymore, I just believe it needs to be done as an actual harvest and the laws should be changed to reflect that. I do however have a problem with people flossing springs. Springs are 'Willing" biters. Their is no need to floss them. They will actively take a spin n glo, bait, or lures. Why try and snag them when you can get them to bite? Is it because you dont want the "sport" in sportfishing? What is so wrong with going out for a day of fishing and actually not catching anything? Is that so terrible? These are actual questions. I am very curious why people who call themselves sport fishermen want to target species who are known biters.
This is the biggest reason I am not into the upper Fraser river or the Vedder. I am more into lake fishing and fishing the lower Fraser river. One, you dont get the crowds and two their is no chance of confrontation. I doubt I will even go barfishing this year. I will fish for sturgeon, pinks, coho and chum all on the lower river ( as well as fly fish for coho on some tributaries of the Fraser on the fly ). When I am not fishing for those species I am on an interior lake enjoying myself catching beautiful triploids.
I agree with you firstlight, flossing should not really be put into a fishing report since its not sporting.
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I stated not to response to a debate on the flossing issue, but this is not about flossing, it is about sharing my observation after fishing sockeyes since it began years ago. Nuggy seems to be a real nice guy. You fish one year for sockeyes and you already make a affirmative statement that sockeye don't bite on the Fraser. I beg to differ. If sockeyes elsewhere bite, why shouldn't it be in the Fraser. It is water clarity problem. But if the water clears up later, the water is greenish and is clear enough for sockeye to see to bite.
I am at peace with flossing so I am not particular about this issue. However, I observe many sockeyes I hooked in later season were squarely inside the mouth when I bounced by releasing line slowly so the lead move straight down along a sockeye travel lane. Do not swing across. To do this you need heavy lead to stay down, like 3 or even 4oz. This is like traditional bottom bouncing. The only problem is that doing this means betty suicide in most snaggy bars. The only bar safe enough to do this is the notoriously crowded lower Peg Leg. It is practically snag free there, probably because it is available to the masses only late in the season. Try shorter leader if you like. But with the strong current and highly irratic bouncing, longer leader will moderate the irratic action of the wool making easier for sockeye to bite. The straight down presentation will cut down flossing if that is what you fear. Give it a shot if you are still open minded about trying bb for biting sockeyes. For others, the mere mentioning of bb for sockeye is already a taboo. So if you are close minded about sockeye fishing, then I respect your decision. I won't want to debate this biting or not biting issue. This is my experience & observation. Your experience can be different. If you are fishing by holding your line for an arc swing resulting in the conclusion that sockeyes do not bite, then I respect that. You can always release the 'foul hooked' fish. This is no different from float fishing or even flyfishing. There is always the chance for this when fish are highly concentrated. Give it a try if you love those delicious sockeyes and have not been totally brain-washed about sockeye fishing. One caution though, time your drift so those short casters don't end up casting right on your line because your line does not swing back in.
Sorry I will not respond to any more ethics debate, so anti guys don't even try to debate this. For those who are not close minded on sockeye fishing, you can always give the technique a try. Cheer and have a good summer.
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I myself will follow the request. I used to bottom bounce (still do for Socks only, when open) for springs but have turned to bar fishing for them in recent years. I dont believe that DFO should have to ban it, I believe the request is suffiecient enough, what they are looking for is that anglers be responsible for their own actions. Who cares what the other groups are doing. Worry about your selves because thats all you have control of. By controlling your own actions you are taking a step in the right direction. Dont use excuses that others groups are fishing and therefore you should to. Those are problems that fisheries have trouble with, dont contribute to them.
glx
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Chris its good to have you guys going to bat for the fish and all but im starting to wonder what this game is all about?
You mention that you had a meeting and that there were reps from fisheries there.
Did anyone tell them that there wording of notices about selective methods really sucks.
They are the ones playing the game here as they dont have the balls to say what needs to be said.
NO BOTTOM BOUNCING is what they should have in the regs and not a wishy washy notice thats asks the fishermen to play nice and use selective methods.
I agree with an earlier poster who said that fisheries just loves to see us fighting among ourselves over something that to me is a cut and dry issue.
Bottom bouncing is snagging and snagging is illegal.Period.
The notice from the Upper Fraser Valley Sports Fishing Advisory Committee that is posted at key launching sites (Island 22) and is in most sports shops to be handed out to people states. "Please note that bottom bouncing is NOT a selective fishing method and is strongly discouraged during the migration of Early Stuart sockeye and a "no"fishing for sockeye" restriction is in place.
Also the notice says should DFO feel that the rate of compliance is insufficient to ensure the safe passage of the Early Stuarts sockeye spot closures or a "no fishing for salmon" restriction may results.
Not sure if Rodney has this notice that goes out with the FOC one but if he has maybe he will consider posting it.
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:-*
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http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=14990.msg146716#msg146716
Thanks I forgot this was the starting thread on this topic, Some were concerned the notice did not include the words no bottom bouncing but as the notice shows it did.
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Chris its good to have you guys going to bat for the fish and all but im starting to wonder what this game is all about?
You mention that you had a meeting and that there were reps from fisheries there.
Did anyone tell them that there wording of notices about selective methods really sucks.
They are the ones playing the game here as they dont have the balls to say what needs to be said.
NO BOTTOM BOUNCING is what they should have in the regs and not a wishy washy notice thats asks the fishermen to play nice and use selective methods.
I agree with an earlier poster who said that fisheries just loves to see us fighting among ourselves over something that to me is a cut and dry issue.
Bottom bouncing is snagging and snagging is illegal.Period.
The notice from the Upper Fraser Valley Sports Fishing Advisory Committee that is posted at key launching sites (Island 22) and is in most sports shops to be handed out to people states. "Please note that bottom bouncing is NOT a selective fishing method and is strongly discouraged during the migration of Early Stuart sockeye and a "no"fishing for sockeye" restriction is in place.
Also the notice says should DFO feel that the rate of compliance is insufficient to ensure the safe passage of the Early Stuarts sockeye spot closures or a "no fishing for salmon" restriction may results.
Not sure if Rodney has this notice that goes out with the FOC one but if he has maybe he will consider posting it.
Are they handing out notices to first nations? I seen quite a few nets in the fraser, this weekend.
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If those that bottom bounce dont buy a licence then that just shows what kind of fishers they really are and i use the term fishermen very loosely.
Id say the coffers are better off without the money from snaggers as there is no place for that kind of crap in fishing.
Its illegal no matter what rose colored glasses your looking through.
Dance around the issue and point fingers everywhere you want but we all know that its wrong to snag fish.
Im done here as i dont really have anymore to say on the matter that i havent allready said.
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Their is allot of disrespect going on around here. Allot of people who have been involved in this sport for many years are being disrespected and I find it a shame. All because they think they know whats right. Sometimes you just need to open your eyes for the greater good.
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Their is allot of disrespect going on around here. Allot of people who have been involved in this sport for many years are being disrespected and I find it a shame. All because they think they know whats right. Sometimes you just need to open your eyes for the greater good.
I am sorry Brian but could you show us where the disrespect is. I have been following this debate from the beginning and I thought that it has been rather civil. I also have not seen any name calling ( except snagger at least it was not poacher) or people being called out except where they make baseless comments without the proof to back it up.
I think that Rod has done an excellent job in moderating this as we all know how passionate people get when defended their methods of fishing.
We should thank him for allowing this debate to go on so that people that want to go and fish can make an informed decision on which method they want to use. So thank you Rod.
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Their is allot of disrespect going on around here. Allot of people who have been involved in this sport for many years are being disrespected and I find it a shame. All because they think they know whats right. Sometimes you just need to open your eyes for the greater good.
SO many poeple, SO many opinions
Not really. People like Chris have seen allot during their life. They have seen the stocks go from what was a great resource to what it is now. Sure the netting is a problem but its only a problem when they take it and sell the fish illegally. Taking the fish to use for their families and for ceremonial purposes is not the problem, as it is what they have been doing for generations. I look up to my elders, people who have been around for allot longer than I have. They have more experience and have seen allot more than I have. Instead of brushing off their comments its better to think about what they said and why they say it. They are not just trying to preach they are obviously doing it for good reason.
We as sportsfishermen have to be responsible for what we do. If we can all do what is for the greater good maybe we can than all try and change things on a bigger scale together. I know this well probably never happen but its what should happen.
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CLOSE IT DOWN! I would reely like to see this, if people keep flossing. Just close it down, and than all of you spring flossers can have time to think about your actions. Or why doesn't DFO just say, no flossing permitted, use of tactical chinook techniques only.... ???
Bottom Line
Mike <"))))><
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Unfortunately, with the flossing technique making it's way into the Vedder for everything from Springs to Steelhead, I would rather see them shut-it down. Just another case of give someone and inch and they take a mile.
As far as BB comment on dis-respect, I would say there has been a fair bit towards the native bands. Before they get blamed for the all the problems you really have to step back and look at everyone involved, and the history of the country. Trust me they are not to blame, and there are some underlying rights deserved. Most of what I hear against the native nets sounds more like whining.
the bottom line is DFO has made a request, if you ethically bottom bounce, not floss. Then go ahead, if you floss and I happen by expect me to come to shore to have a chat, give bar fishing a shot it's more relaxing anyways. ;)
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I would definately say it isn't unproductive. Last year, after the sockeye closure, I got over a dozen guy to stop BB once I talked to them, I handed out fisheries requests to probably 30 more. I would say that over half of them didn't know the request existed, several of them didn't even know that the fish weren't biting the hook. If you sit back and do nothing then you have no one to blame but yourself for the results. The only way thing that is having any impact on slowing the spread of Flossing is some self policing that is going on. Until fisheries does something more, than this is the only thing that can be done. That and setting up a sturgeon rod below the Flossers.
Unforetunately there is a whole group and generation of fisherman that are being brought u8p with the idea that it's ok to SNAG fish, because hey it got them in the mouth. There are more and more folks on the river with no fishing etiquette, they jump in on any spot they open, fish below you, have no manners, and floss fish. Although geared to more to flyfishing "The gillie" is a good book to learn some of the base rules of fishing etiquette.
When the sockeye fishery really strted going crazy a few years back I didn't see a problem with harvesting them with flossing, unfortunately the monster that this created is spilling into other fisheries and that is the problem. If it could be contained to just the sockeyes and if folks were carefull with the release of by-catch then I don't know if it would bother me that much. But folks insist on dragging anything on the end of their line up the beach over the rocks only to be tossed back in, or occasionally kept beacuse of poor ID. I've seen guys keep Coho as sockeye, Kick Chum back down the beach, and stare blindly at a summer run steel tryuing to figure out if it's ok to keep while it lays on the rocks.
If we as fellow fisherman aren't willling to take steps are self to try and educate and inform people then do we just sit back and hope someone else can do it for us?
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Just cause some hit the mouth it's still snagging.
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Just cause some hit the mouth it's still snagging.
according to you, not according to the synopsis
Its worded , word for word in the rule book, what more is there to say
Maybe its time for a new book?
New generation of fisherman = new book (in my mind)....anyone else?
Mike <"))))><
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I should have noted that the SFAC notice was put together with input from FOC, MOE staff as well as angler and guide representatives at a series of meetings and corresponding.
Apologies for not posting that. :-[
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FishFreak, so I know if you're just bored and stirring the pot, or if you are becoming the advocate for snaggers, do you floss fish? If so just for sockeye during openings? Or whenever you feel like it?
Run through and use the Loophole all you want, snagging is snagging, no matter where the hook sinks in.
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Ok, first read the email I sent you. Second, if you knew it was me why didn't you come say Hi. And why when I asked BigSteel did he say that only one of you was flossing. I didn't hit the river this morning, I will be flyfishing up top when they get there, you feel free to come by and see how the fly is presented then make your argument.
And as far as the other methods conversation went, it was beacuse my buddy prefers to fish staright out the back of the boat in slow moving water with bar rigs, where as I prefer faster water fished from shore while bar fishing. Get your facts straight, and smarten up, you should be old enough to know right from wrong.
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:-*
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If they ban bb'ing then I am switching to fly-fishing with the biggest and and heaviest hook I can find for the current water conditions. This way I can get into the 'target zone'. Fly-fishing is ethical, right?
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Can't say that I am surprised with the numbers from the poll so far. 24 to 9 in favor of people that don't have a real problem with flossing/ BB'ing or whatever you want to label it as.
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Hi Chris and other antibbers,
let's face it. This salmon fishery(probebly the last one on earth) is going to disappear no matter what you do.
Have you not heard last year three natives illegally killed 300,000 salmon in a single year? How many did the commercial fleet get?
Have you seen people in other parts of the world using explosives and electricity to kill fish? Bottom Bouncing is noting compare to those methods.
Plus The best bbers are the fishing guides. And they are teaching people bbing everyday. I was taught by "the Master" three years ago.
For the past 3 years, I've seen thousands of bbers. But how many bar fisher? This highly effective method speaks for itself, people will just use it.
I love bbing!!!
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Hi Chris and other antibbers,
let's face it. This salmon fishery(probebly the last one on earth) is going to disappear no matter what you do.
Have you not heard last year three natives illegally killed 300,000 salmon in a single year? How many did the commercial fleet get?
Have you seen people in other parts of the world using explosives and electricity to kill fish? Bottom Bouncing is noting compare to those methods.
Plus The best bbers are the fishing guides. And they are teaching people bbing everyday. I was taught by "the Master" three years ago.
For the past 3 years, I've seen thousands of bbers. But how many bar fisher? This highly effective method speaks for itself, people will just use it.
I love bbing!!!
I believe he is changing just like I did and many others did, have and will. Many are seeing what it is doing to our recreational fishery. One must remind themselves most of usll did it at one time or another and we did not do it as a method to catch chinook.
I will not comment on your other points as I believe I have addressed them many times before in one form or another. I will continue to work at saving our salmon and the environment the best I can. Many other will as well. I am moving close to hijacking this thread with the next two sentences.
Read the article by Mark Hume in today's Globe and Mail for some interesting statements on our salmon. I imagine some of our computer experts will find it and start a new thread with its posting.
O, I am glad I beat you at badminton, ;D ;D ;D you should come out when you have your new business up and running, glad to see you posting. ;D
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Here is a page from wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flosser
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Whoo hoo! I am ethical and a sport-fisherman. Thanks for the link fly guy!
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I think Wikipedia needs a kick in the arse, and they need to stop getting amateurs writing their info on there....
Flossing is sportfishing lol, give me a break..... ;D
Mike <"))))><
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Nothing is good enough for people who is brain-washed against something. They will discredit anything you throw at them without providing an sound reason and go back to chant their anti slogans. We see that happening all over the world and there is no difference here. Even if you can prove that sockeye bites when presented properly in clearer water, it will not make any difference to the 'holier' gang. The mind is already locked in and programmed that bb for sockeye is taboo, and anyone doing it is enemy #1... Further debates with people like that is pointless. To each his own. Respect and fish in peace.
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Brainwashed?Clear water?Biting Sockeye?
Thats not at all what im talking about.
Im talking about willfully snagging fish with long leaders,including Chinook that are being targeted right now.
Disgracefull and certainly not fishing in my eyes.
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In law and court judgment, the INTENT of an action is everything. It can mean the difference of staying in prison for life or being set free. If DFO sets the legal codes governing what they consider is snagging and yet does not prosecute anyone flossing, then (I guess, as I am not their spokesman ;D) they must intend to define snagging as AN INTENT to hook fish in any part of the body other than the mouth. In which case, flossing does not qualify, because the intent of flossing is to target the mouth of a fish.
In fact in any sockeye bars, the incident of hooking a fish by other body parts is a rare thing. Flossing does not foul hook fish as much as float fishing or flyfishing in places of high fish concentration. During the pink season, floaters and flyfishers can snag into a fish almost every other pass. You don't see that in flossing with that kind of frequency. So in term of causing harm to a fish by accidental snagging into a fish, flossing is less than other methods. Does this mean we should ban floating & flyfishing during pink season? ;)
Considering fish are caught in many other ways all over the world including Canada (Oolichans & smelts are netted or scooped, eels & lobsters in the Eastern shore are trapped, etc), the fanatic insistence that fish has to be biting in order to be harvested is a narrow point of view. It is a product of a well-fed society of the West. The starving people of the world can look at the affluent & well fed Canadians who turn their back on this God given (or nature, if you are atheist) bounty of the sea, because of a narrow vision about fishing, and weep. They will probably ask Heaven why so unfair. Why shouldn't they? You want to trade places with them? Count your blessings men. If the bears, the eagles, the natives and what have u are benefiting from this bounty, why not the average joes? Should the bears claw, bite or crush the fish with their body? Should the eagles claw, beak or plunge to catch a fish? Which way is more acceptable? The average joes are already down to one rod, one barbless hook, and limited days or time to catch a fish, what else you need to strip of him to make him fishless?
This bounty should be regulated and preserved by careful stock management. But when DFO gives the legal opening after stock conservation quota is met, why abstain? I would rather catch the fish & give it to needy person, such as a widow or senior. :)
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Where did you come up with that liketofish? Did you do a survey on how many fish are snagged by the various methods? I am just curious as how you concluded that flossing actually snags fish ( on the body ) less often than other methods. I have never snagged a fish floatfishing or fly fishing. I have snagged a few chums with spoons by accident where they were so thick it was hard not too. Other than that I have never snagged a fish.
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Just got a note from FOC this afternoon compliance with the selective fishing method (NO BB) not too bad in most area's but the Scale Bar is causing concern. The note adds spot closure or complete salmon closure is a possibility so lets not let this happen.
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A question...
For those of you who think stationary bar fishing is boring, why don't you float fish for springs?
I bet that would be fun, they'd really rip that float down!
Cheers,
Nicole
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It does not take a rocket scientist to observe that during the pink run in the Vedder. Flyfishermen targeting coho repeatedly snag into pinks in the body parts. Float fishing not snagging fish? Common, go over Tamahi during Oct/Nov. Poor fish snagged on fins, belly, eyes what have u and have to fight heavy currents. Those scenes make PETA a viable org. Congrats. You obviously have achieved sainthood in fishing by never snagging into a fish unintentionally. ;D
Even short floating snags fish in places of high concentration. Try to short float for a coho among the chum schools in Chehalis. So should we shut all these methods down? Cheer. ;D
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In law and court judgment, the INTENT of an action is everything. It can mean the difference of staying in prison for life or being set free. If DFO sets the legal codes governing what they consider is snagging and yet does not prosecute anyone flossing, then (I guess, as I am not their spokesman ) they must intend to define snagging as AN INTENT to hook fish in any part of the body other than the mouth. In which case, flossing does not qualify, because the intent of flossing is to target the mouth of a fish.
In fact in any sockeye bars, the incident of hooking a fish by other body parts is a rare thing. Flossing does not foul hook fish as much as float fishing or flyfishing in places of high fish concentration. During the pink season, floaters and flyfishers can snag into a fish almost every other pass. You don't see that in flossing with that kind of frequency. So in term of causing harm to a fish by accidental snagging into a fish, flossing is less than other methods. Does this mean we should ban floating & flyfishing during pink season?
Considering fish are caught in many other ways all over the world including Canada (Oolichans & smelts are netted or scooped, eels & lobsters in the Eastern shore are trapped, etc), the fanatic insistence that fish has to be biting in order to be harvested is a narrow point of view. It is a product of a well-fed society of the West. The starving people of the world can look at the affluent & well fed Canadians who turn their back on this God given (or nature, if you are atheist) bounty of the sea, because of a narrow vision about fishing, and weep. They will probably ask Heaven why so unfair. Why shouldn't they? You want to trade places with them? Count your blessings men. If the bears, the eagles, the natives and what have u are benefiting from this bounty, why not the average joes? Should the bears claw, bite or crush the fish with their body? Should the eagles claw, beak or plunge to catch a fish? Which way is more acceptable? The average joes are already down to one rod, one barbless hook, and limited days or time to catch a fish, what else you need to strip of him to make him fishless?
This bounty should be regulated and preserved by careful stock management. But when DFO gives the legal opening after stock conservation quota is met, why abstain if DFO does not consider flossing as snagging which they sure prosecute? I would rather catch the fish & give it to needy person, such as a widow or senior.
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The reason those guys are snagging salmon on hte Vedder is because their leaders are 9 feet long and they are RIPPING. If they were to actually "short float" with a 1-2 foot leader they would not be snagging fish. Also the ripping is a big factor on the Vedder, they feel anything out of the ordinary and they RIP RIP RIP!! Thats not short floating.
As far as fly fishing the rivers for salmon I use about a 2-3 foot leader. Thats all that is needed.
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It does not take a rocket scientist to observe that during the pink run in the Vedder. Flyfishermen targeting coho repeatedly snag into pinks in the body parts. Float fishing not snagging fish? Common, go over Tamahi during Oct/Nov. Poor fish snagged on fins, belly, eyes what have u and have to fight heavy currents. Those scenes make PETA a viable org. Congrats. You obviously have achieved sainthood in fishing by never snagging into a fish unintentionally. ;D
Even short floating snags fish in places of high concentration. Try to short float for a coho among the chum schools in Chehalis. So should we shut all these methods down? Cheer. ;D
Many of the so called float fishers are simply lining the fish in Tamihi Rapids, I've seen it. Lining is another more polite term for flossing.
And there is not one single method that could be used to get through the carpet of chums late season on the chehalis below the hatchery without snagging chum...
That was a poor example in my opinion, it's not possible to even fish for the one coho that may exist... Trust me I've tried.
Cheers,
Nicole
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The reason those guys are snagging salmon on hte Vedder is because their leaders are 9 feet long and they are RIPPING. If they were to actually "short float" with a 1-2 foot leader they would not be snagging fish. Also the ripping is a big factor on the Vedder, they feel anything out of the ordinary and they RIP RIP RIP!! Thats not short floating.
Yup, that is ripping is snagging.... 100%!
Short floating should be done with no resistance on the float, it should dead drift with the current, with the odd repositioning of the float to keep it trucking in the current...
:)
Nicole
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It does not take a rocket scientist to observe that during the pink run in the Vedder. Flyfishermen targeting coho repeatedly snag into pinks in the body parts.
It's fairly easy to avoid the pinks while fishing coho, I didn't snag one single pink last opening...
But I know how to avoid the foul hooking by fishing certain water types, others don't.
Cheers,
Nicole
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Hey Chris,
spot closure or complete salmon closure? I don't believe they really want to do this. This whole fishery thing is money driven. I don't think the FOC is blind enough to ignore the money our flossers have generated over the years. We'll see what happens next.
and Liketofish, I love your point. "Well fed Canadians". Try live in China, you starve is you are selective.
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:-*
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It does not take a rocket scientist to observe that during the pink run in the Vedder. Flyfishermen targeting coho repeatedly snag into pinks in the body parts.
It's fairly easy to avoid the pinks while fishing coho, I didn't snag one single pink last opening...
But I know how to avoid the foul hooking by fishing certain water types, others don't.
Cheers,
Nicole
There you go Nicole. You were one of those laughing at Steelhawk as superfisherman with a badge because he stated he rarely hook into sockeye by the way he fish. Now you are saying the same thing to yourself, I am a superfisherwoman by rarely hooking Pinks. The truth is, Pinks were snagged left and right in the whole river for the entire Pink season. So Steelhawk said he can be selective by the way he fish and he was scorned and jeered, and now you are saying you can be selective on Pinks but people including me still hold high respect for you. Some people only see what they do as the right thing to do. That is called self-righteousness in my book. This applies to all those posters who claim he/she bb for sockeye and not spring, then turn around to attack those bb for both, even though the latter group hardly hooks into sockeyes currently.
By the way, even if others are ripping while they fish, they are nevertheless float fishing. If nothing can be done to stop them from ripping while float fishing, then float fishing should be stopped, in the same light you think bottom bouncing should be stopped now even though most people do not hook a sockeye. So if a few sockeyes are caught & released, you think the entire bb should be stopped, then why not apply the same argument to float fishing. There, more fish are fouled hooked and snagged than any other methods. Actually the sight-fishers are the ones doing minimal damage because they only target selected fish, but even that practice of sight fishing has been under attack. Go figure.
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It does not take a rocket scientist to observe that during the pink run in the Vedder. Flyfishermen targeting coho repeatedly snag into pinks in the body parts. Float fishing not snagging fish? Common, go over Tamahi during Oct/Nov. Poor fish snagged on fins, belly, eyes what have u and have to fight heavy currents. Those scenes make PETA a viable org. Congrats. You obviously have achieved sainthood in fishing by never snagging into a fish unintentionally. ;D
Even short floating snags fish in places of high concentration. Try to short float for a coho among the chum schools in Chehalis. So should we shut all these methods down? Cheer. ;D
Many of the so called float fishers are simply lining the fish in Tamihi Rapids, I've seen it. Lining is another more polite term for flossing.
And there is not one single method that could be used to get through the carpet of chums late season on the chehalis below the hatchery without snagging chum...
That was a poor example in my opinion, it's not possible to even fish for the one coho that may exist... Trust me I've tried.
Cheers,
Nicole
It's easy just use a circle type hook . The fish has to bite to get hooked with these babies :'(
I think that the major problem here is that everything you read about how to consistently catch fish, they talk about constantly being on the bottom, your offering HAS to be on the bottom. Well how do you do that? BB or long lining with a float. If people would realize that within a foot or 2 is much better, not only for presentation but for spooking fish and snagging also. Fish will move for a properly presented bait or lure :-X
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Now you are saying the same thing to yourself, I am a superfisherwoman by rarely hooking Pinks. The truth is, Pinks were snagged left and right in the whole river for the entire Pink season.
Well I'm fishing totally stagnant water and stripping for the coho using coho patterns, that's how I avoid the pinks... I don't fish current at all.
The odd one does find the fly though, and what you catch is what bites.
Try doing that with flossing, it's not possible.
Cheers,
Nicole
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It's easy just use a circle type hook . The fish has to bite to get hooked with these babies :'(
I think that the major problem here is that everything you read about how to consistently catch fish, they talk about constantly being on the bottom, your offering HAS to be on the bottom. Well how do you do that? BB or long lining with a float. If people would realize that within a foot or 2 is much better, not only for presentation but for spooking fish and snagging also. Fish will move for a properly presented bait or lure :-X
I want to try that circle hook this year... I hope it works!
I agree with the better line control with a shorter leader... Even in the cap right now I'm using 12 inches of 8 lb flouro.
Cheers,
Nicole
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Now you are saying the same thing to yourself, I am a superfisherwoman by rarely hooking Pinks. The truth is, Pinks were snagged left and right in the whole river for the entire Pink season.
Well I'm fishing totally stagnant water and stripping for the coho using coho patterns, that's how I avoid the pinks... I don't fish current at all.
The odd one does find the fly though, and what you catch is what bites.
Try doing that with flossing, it's not possible.
Cheers,
Nicole
Well said Nicole.
I never foul hooked a single chum last year doing the same thing.
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They work pretty good when huge numbers are packed together. Hard to set the hook sometimes
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Id like to join Nicole and others and indicate that I did not snag a pink or chum using short floating methods. I can count on one hand the amount of foul hookings in my lifetime using SELECTIVE angling techniques. In the Chehalis, I fish outside the chum because that's where the coho are. I also fish ABOVE the fish as they look UP and will move if they want to bite. When I retrieve I keep it on top and since Im not fishing 4 feet of water with 10 feet of float, it's pretty easy to avoid them.
The 'float fishermen' mentioned here are the 'Rippers' who set the hook several times a drift. These 'Rippers' are yet another thing we can thank the Fraser Snaggery for. They are common everywhere but seem to love the Keith Wilson Bridge and Tamihi Rapids.
Dont get them mixed up with selective angling.
Steelhead4ever, good points.
LiketoFish however, weak points :P (in my opinion). We're talking about OUR kind of fishing here. Not what happens elsewhere. All are unique and in our case, SNAGGING is illegal for a very good reason. Keep up this mentality and we can watch our angling opportunities disappear along with the fish.
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Steelhawk, sorry to 'come after' you again. :D
You keep tooting this "it's legal" horn and call guys and gals like me brain washed. Or you for some reason bring in biting sockeye in clear water using bb (which I can only assume means with a 20' leader...?)
I had several points that have not been touched yet except with this repetative 'legal' statement that's sort of getting kind of lame to me. Or there's always the Nets or that somebody in Africa uses a spear, equally troubling. Where's the brainwashing? ??? ;)
Im curious your thoughts on why snagging is defined in the regs as such. Why is it, and Im talking about the enforceable snagging here, illegal and possibly for what reasons?
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I will let Freak debate you instead. ;D
I wish to pursue my fishing in peace. If my comments trouble you, I apologize. Many bbers feel the same troubling with the constant name calling, labelling and general trashing done to them too. I do respect you for your care for fish stock. Just want to point out that your energy is better spent on the group which can do real damage.
I am done with debating on fishing ethics. Ethics is a moral issue and universal in nature. Theft, robbery, murder etc. are crimes everywhere it happens. If you declare that what happen elsewhere doesn't apply and that DFO's considering flossing as a legally acceptable method is not a valid point, then what is the point to debate on ethics?
I am off to fishing. Relax, I will fish very selectively and I will not catch any sockeye, even in sockeye water. I reported this a few years ago, that I took a green rod fishing near end of July. It was a mistake because he did hook into 10 socs while I target spring and did not hook any socs. I motioned we moved to more springy water to avoid the socs and instruct him where to cast. We both ended up with springs and not a soc. This trip gives me the feeling that with proper presentation, socs can be avoided. But greener rods may not be able to do that. So, I think the river should be closed to All fishermen from 3rd week of July until sockeye opens. Like me, I am sure many bbers like BS, Rieber, Fly Guy. FishFreak etc. care about fish stocks just like many bar fishers. We can do much better if we are a united group. :)
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Hi Steelhawk,
I note that you keep going back to the topic of flossing for springs....how you rarely hook sockeye....and how you avoid the sockeye, while flossing in a targeted manner for springs. While it would be good that you could in theory, avoid these endangered sockeye while they are in the river, I think it may be possible that you are actually missing the bigger picture. When the flossing phenomenon began, it was an answer to the difficult question of how to hook "sockeye". Spoons didn't seem to work, bar fishing didn't work 98.999% of the time, and so somebody developed the technique of dragging the line through the fishes mouth and thus hooking a fish that otherwise would very rarely be caught simply because it did not bite. Flossing was born ;) You are correct that once in a while a sockeye is hooked inside the mouth while flossing, I've seen it as well, however my guess would be that it could be called a fluke.....either the rare instance that one bit?? or simply a lucky drift that "threaded the needle" so to speak. Either way, the reality is that most people at that time did not go out of their way to floss for springs in fact it was almost unheard of. Springs were simply a by-catch of flossing for sockeye and if they happened to be "in the mouth", then lots of guys would keep them, however I remember seeing quite a few springs snagged in various parts of the body as well and though a few were kept >:( ??? most were released. The point is it's only in the last few years that flossing has been carried over to fishing for springs, a fish that does willingly and aggressively bite. This entire floss fishery for springs is an example of the negative impact flossing in and of itself, has had on sport fishing in general. Prior to the acceptance of flossing for sockeye as a legitimate fishery, I don't think too many sport fisherman that I know of would have been caught dead flossing springs in the Fraser. You either bar fished, spoon fished, or float fished some other system. Somehow a portion of the sport fishing community, has become de-sensitized to what flossing really is and how it started out, and given themselves(with a little help from a poorly written, in need of an overhaul freshwater synopsis) a loophole in which to legitimize a questionable method for catching fish. A side note as well in regards to comparing methods used elsewhere..... I've got to agree with 2:40, it's a completely moot point. Let's keep the discussion in and about BC.
Cheers,
Arnie
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Excellent post Arnie. ;)
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I am one of the people that still believe that alot of the fish that are caught using a BB rig indeed do bite the presentation !! On the Thompson during Steelhead season the most popular way of fishing is BB !! these fish are not flossed , people just use this method because it is a big system and you need to get you're hook down deep in the flow .... I BB for both Sockeye and Spring last year and 99% of the fish caught by Myself and my fellow fishermen were hooked INSIDE the mouth, alot of them were hooked in the top of the mouth, this fact alone makes me believe that many of the fish that are caught using this method actualy DO bite the presentation, the fact that BB is frowned upon is pretty sad when it is a legitimate method of fishing that goes back before using floats to fish was even thought of !!
TH
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I am one of the people that still believe that alot of the fish that are caught using a BB rig indeed do bite the presentation !!
:D :D :D :D :D
On the Thompson during Steelhead season the most popular way of fishing is BB !! these fish are not flossed , people just use this method because it is a big system and you need to get you're hook down deep in the flow
Major difference here Rick. The water's CLEAR, the leaders are SHORT and the fish BITE. The water guys are fishing now in the Fraser is DIRTY, the leaders are LONG and the fish DONT or CANT bite a tiny corkie and green wool whipping by. One other difference is the intention in the Thompson is for a bite, in the Fraser, it's to get a snag. How long is your leader Rick? If they do bite, :D are you using a short leader and targeting such a bite??
.... I BB for both Sockeye and Spring last year and 99% of the fish caught by Myself and my fellow fishermen were hooked INSIDE the mouth, alot of them were hooked in the top of the mouth, this fact alone makes me believe that many of the fish that are caught using this method actualy DO bite the presentation, the fact that BB is frowned upon is pretty sad when it is a legitimate method of fishing that goes back before using floats to fish was even thought of !!
TH
I used a bare hook for a test when snagging sockeye and chinook and once in a while, Id get one hook-up that looked pretty convincing. Or maybe they're just biting a black hook in 6" of vis? ;)
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So tell me Gord, how do the resident fish eat in the Fraser ??? if the fish can't see in the muddy water obviously according to you're logic they must all just starve !! ::)
You are so shortsighted in you're posts sometimes, you only see what you want to see !! when the river is thick with fish and they see a corky or a chunk of wool float by , of course they are going to strike at it.. I think you would be really surprised with how much vision the fish have even in a muddy river such as the Fraser
TH
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So tell me Gord, how do the resident fish eat in the Fraser ??? if the fish can't see in the muddy water obviously according to you're logic they must all just starve !! ::)
You are so shortsighted in you're posts sometimes, you only see what you want to see !! when the river is thick with fish and they see a corky or a chunk of wool float by , of course they are going to strike at it.. I think you would be really surprised with how much vision the fish have even in a muddy river such as the Fraser
TH
The sockeye and the springs are not resident fish so thats not comparable. Resident fish adapt to their surroundings and their instincts and senses adapt. Here is a good example. I know that blind peoples hearing is much better than most that are not blind. When someone loses a sense another sense generally gets stronger. It happens in the wildlife as well.
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So tell me Gord, how do the resident fish eat in the Fraser ??? if the fish can't see in the muddy water obviously according to you're logic they must all just starve !! ::)
You are so shortsighted in you're posts sometimes, you only see what you want to see !! when the river is thick with fish and they see a corky or a chunk of wool float by , of course they are going to strike at it.. I think you would be really surprised with how much vision the fish have even in a muddy river such as the Fraser
TH
The sockeye and the springs are not resident fish so thats not comparable. Resident fish adapt to their surroundings and their instincts and senses adapt. Here is a good example. I know that blind peoples hearing is much better than most that are not blind. When someone loses a sense another sense generally gets stronger. It happens in the wildlife as well.
Trying to reason with narrow minded people that have already made up their minds and can't see a different view reminds me of talking to a WALL
I think their is another fishing (back stabbing) site where you might feel more at home ;)
::) ??? ??? ::)
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So tell me Gord, how do the resident fish eat in the Fraser ??? if the fish can't see in the muddy water obviously according to you're logic they must all just starve !! ::)
You are so shortsighted in you're posts sometimes, you only see what you want to see !! when the river is thick with fish and they see a corky or a chunk of wool float by , of course they are going to strike at it.. I think you would be really surprised with how much vision the fish have even in a muddy river such as the Fraser
TH
The sockeye and the springs are not resident fish so thats not comparable. Resident fish adapt to their surroundings and their instincts and senses adapt. Here is a good example. I know that blind peoples hearing is much better than most that are not blind. When someone loses a sense another sense generally gets stronger. It happens in the wildlife as well.
If you truly believe that BB , then I think you have been staring at you're computer screen too long :P
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Good thoughts Rick but I think BB answered it well and accurately.
One big problem with this snaggery is when it's called bottom bouncing and then compared to what is a legitimate angling practice. We need to be careful and call things what they are instead of trying to justify something by dragging in other stuff (ie 'bottom bouncing', European angling practices, FN nets etc).
A good Chinese saying goes something as as follows:
"..a part of wisdom is calling something what it is"
Or, "A problem accurately stated is a problem half solved".
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ive found the catch ratio of early run sockeye is comparable with both methods. If the fish is played right and kept in the water and revived properly there is no reason it should not survive. what should be enforced is the regulations and proper release techniques as there is a million idiots dragging them up on shore and kicking them in the water or even killing them out of season. netting in itself can be a problem and the dfo should do active checks to ensure the natives and commercial guys are using the proper sized mesh to avoid catching the sockeye, they have the right to fish the river but its time to unify all fisherman and not just natives,sporties and commercial guys separately. that being said its been brought up a million times, the fraser river is a meat fishery, bottom bouncing there is the equivalent of sight fishing unwilling coho on the upper river. while you may hook it in the mouth the method is questionable but in fact legal under the regs so long as its in the mouth. i would not mind the month of july to be bar fishing only as that is usually when the water clears well enough to barf and they early run passes in numbers. let them bottom bounce may and june as there isnt many around then but close it july to august to barfish only, i think that would be fair to all.
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So tell me Gord, how do the resident fish eat in the Fraser ??? if the fish can't see in the muddy water obviously according to you're logic they must all just starve !! ::)
You are so shortsighted in you're posts sometimes, you only see what you want to see !! when the river is thick with fish and they see a corky or a chunk of wool float by , of course they are going to strike at it.. I think you would be really surprised with how much vision the fish have even in a muddy river such as the Fraser
TH
The sockeye and the springs are not resident fish so thats not comparable. Resident fish adapt to their surroundings and their instincts and senses adapt. Here is a good example. I know that blind peoples hearing is much better than most that are not blind. When someone loses a sense another sense generally gets stronger. It happens in the wildlife as well.
If you truly believe that BB , then I think you have been staring at you're computer screen too long :P
Well lets see. Salmon are not resident fish and when returning they are heading for their home rivers to spawn and thats it. The resident fish are not always on the move and know whats in the river to feed off of. When salmon are on the move they are not feeding. When they bite it is most likely they are biting out of aggression and reactionary. Once the salmon are in their home rivers they will feed and thats why they take roe and other baits so readily. Common methods on the Fraser such as barfishing and throwing spoons its clearly from a reacionary bite and not from feeding fish. Notice how uncommon it is to hear of a spring being caught with such poor visibility from those methods just mentioned. Its because the fish cant see the lures being presented and hence no fish being caught. Flossing springs on the other hand this time of year when the river has no visibilty are being caught frequently. Is it just coincidence? I think not.
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Kingpin, exactly, there ISNT as many fish going through in May and June. 10 years ago these small runs of early Chinook went through unmolested due to dirty water and high conditions. Now 'sport' anglers are getting a piece of this pie in large numbers. DFO will have no choice but for closures in light of this or risk losing some runs. Between the nets and now the snaggers, this is a bit of a concern.
The Fraser, or any other system, shouldnt be passed off as a meat fishery either. This 'meat fishery' is a creation by a segment of angling that's grown and will continue to grow considerably. It has also grown to include most other systems. In a perfect world, guys would snag a few sockeye in the Fraser and that would be it. But it's obviously not going that way if you care to watch what goes on, say, under the Keith Wilson Bridge in the fall.
Pretty accurate BB.
Rick, how long's your leader you're using to get these sockeye and springs to bite? ;)
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2:40 hasnt the river been closed to bar fish only in the passed, im young but i seem to remember such things
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Rick, how long's your leader you're using to get these sockeye and springs to bite? ;)
When I first started BB on the Fraser years ago I used about 3-4 feet of leader and I actually did very well, when I increased my leader length all I managed to do was frustrate myself with tangled lines and once in a while catching myself in the A$$... if I were to fish that fishery today I would most likely use about 4-5 feet ... but seeing as I finally checked out the amazing trout fishery in the Thompson you won't be seeing my ugly mug near any Lower Mainland rivers ;) you guys can have em ;D
TH
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Not sure what you mean Kingpin, but happy to share the young bit too even when the kids tire me out. :-[ There has been salmon closures that I know which means no fishing for salmon regardless of method. I dont think there's ever been restrictions other than bait.
Have fun on the Thompson Rick. Nice area and probably wont be any hotter than it is here. :o
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hmmm i guess im mistaking i thought that the river was closed a few years back to barfishing only.... maybe my memory isnt what it used to be ;D
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"ive found the catch ratio of early run sockeye is comparable with both methods. If the fish is played right and kept in the water and revived properly there is no reason it should not survive. what should be enforced is the regulations and proper release techniques as there is a million idiots dragging them up on shore and kicking them in the water or even killing them out of season."
Actually this one isn't true, it's been scientifically proven that the sockeye are by far the most fragile of the Fraser river salmon, running on a 5% energy reserve and suffering from large releases of lactic acid, even though that fish may look perfectly healthy when released and have been caught and released with great care, there's a good chance that the added stress has killed it. If you are on the river with daily you will notice an incredable increase in sockeye floaters shortly after sockeye season opens.
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:-*