Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing Reports => Members' Fishing Reports => Topic started by: OldTrout on October 09, 2006, 09:59:43 PM
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Well this morning the alarm rang at 4:00 and I was on my way from Maple Ridge up to try my luck as a newbie on the Chillawack river. I decided to try the allison pools and got there very early, in fact it was still dark and guess who forgot the torch..... Anyway othere soon began to show and I followed a couple of regulars down to the water. I watched as people started readying their kit but no torch meany I was left fumbling in the near dark. As light began to break I finally managed to rig up my new stealth float, pencil lead and some wool on a No4 but by now there were more people and I had to try the bottom of the pool in the fast water. Nothing, fish were jumping and splashing all around with about 10 people trying to catch them.
I gave up as a bad job after 30 min of nothing and decided to walk up river to see what I could find. No more than 100 mtr's up around this bend I found a pool, must have been 10 foot deep and clear as gin. I could see a good six or seven salmon just swimming up and down the pool, three looked like chum as I could make out the markings on the sides but none were taking anything.
I tried float with wool in reg, green, orange, I tried roe given to me by a friend and I tried spinners, spoons then back to the roe, with no float. Those fish were mocking me... I could almost see the smiles on their faces.
I fished that pool for what seemed like hours and anly say foru or five other anglers who moved past trying for a few min's then going on their way.
I was freezing,, getting totaly pi.... o.. no fish, not even a bite so decided to call it a day and packed my gear to head home.
On my way down I stopped at the vedder crossing (on the side of the road as the car park was packed). I stood on the bridge and watched the mayhem below, I was angry to see one particular individual foul hook at least three chum, hooking them in the back and dragging them to shore where he frees his hook and then kicks the fish back into the water. One he left on the bank where he dragged it and just walked off to cas again. That fish flapped and found water again then swam out slowly down stream.
If he did not want chum, why snag them,,,,, where are the dfo when these idiots are around.
Enough of my ranting... the fish won this time but I will be back, wiser and hopefully luckier next time.
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Cheers mate... ;D
You are a schollar and a gent
I'll take you up on that offer as soon as I can get another day pass from ere in doors.
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I think we all would love to give that guy such a wedgie he would not be able to drive home. DFO indeed. Thanks for the report.
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Yeah..
a wedgie with barbed wire underpants should help the situation and keep him off the rever ;D :D ;)
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KWB needs to be closed for fishing its a simple solution!
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Nice report OldTrout, do not become discouraged as a lot of very experienced anglers are having the same results you had today. The majority, not all I must add of the fish being taken on the Chilliwack Vedder these days are being swept.
Like your term torch, a good old English word for a flashlight. ;D ;D
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KWB needs to be closed for fishing its a simple solution!
make it flyfishing only, dry line and weighted fly. Don't just close it, that would just be ignorant :)
plenty of sporting flyfishers would LOVE to have a crack at KWB, but we never will because of the whordes.
Cheers,
Nicole
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I would have to agree with the Freak on this one, same thing happens every year at the Squamish.. the fly guys are flossing chums left right and center... but in their minds they are the " Ethical " ones LMFAO
I have swung a fly through that run before and you can feel your fly bumping into fish every few seconds, explain to me how this is any different that sweeping a run with gear ?????
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well I'm certainly no expert on fly fishing, although I'd like to be...I fish a center pin 100% of the time...but It seems to me that the difference is in the fisherman/fisherwoman and their intent and technique.
I'm sure anyone could sweep and dredge with gear or fly if they wanted, but I'm also sure that many of us short float and entice the fish to bite...just as much as I am sure that many river fly fishers mend their line and get the fly drifting straight down at the fish, or impart action to it to entice the fish rather than dragging it through the water and yanking whenever they feel something.
My point being there are responsible anglers whatever the rod they are using, and likewise, there are sweepers/dredgers/flossers/idiots/ignorants....whatever the rod they are using. So sure, those squamish fly sweepers you mentioned may in fact be taking advantage of their fly rod and hooking up the easy way....but I'm sure many a good fly fisher out there has all the ethics we do and fishes responsibly whatever the situation, and deserves a fair shake. Let's not jump on the fly fishers just because a few of them, like a great many gear fishers, use questionable methods. I'm sure many fly fishers would like to give their sweeping bretheren a barbed wire wedgie also! ;)
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I've said this before but most flyfishermen tend to avoid flossing toothy critters because running your 60 dollar sink tip or shooting head through a chums mouth is a very good way to destroy it in a hurry. Most people would agree that running a floating line and wieghted fly is far less likley to floss with, plus it doesn't ruin your lines.
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Flyfishers can easily tell the difference between a hit and a body bounce... It's quite easy, you just don't come up on your rod when you feel the body bounce.
I guarantee it, a dry line and weighted fly would not foul hook many fish... And yes you can sweep with a heavy tip, but your chances of foul hooking fish becomes immense, and it's no fun bringing in a fish sideways or by the my friend on a 7 wt.
For the most part, very few salmon fishers start on the fly, most of them graduate to it once catching 40+ fish in a day gets boring. So I doubt you'd see alot of novice flyfishers out there flossing, cause the rest of us would be brow beating them hard!
I'd rather see the lining stop, and have the entire river 100% accessible to everyone, but if you had to close portions, make them flyfishing only, and 99% of the fish would be safe from harrassment, as they tend to stack in the deepest part of the pools the fly tossers can't reach anyway.
Cheers,
Nicole
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I like fly fishing, but it just simply looks like a great big peice of line sweeping the river and the fish are eventually getting theline caught in there mouth, i saw on saturday this guy caught 5 or 6 springs and a couple of chum pretty much every cast, i thought that was a little odd when the whole crowd there wasnt getting anything but this one guy is hooking up all the time whats the odss of that when there is around 40 people fishing the same hole , everyone is using a wide variety of wool colours,blades,roe you name it though it was a little interesting
Even a guy cadting a 8 ft leader with no float >:( I had to say something right away as i wasnt going to spend my day fishing with this clown beside me >:(
When I'm the only one catching fish after fish on the fly, most people come up to me and want to see the fly I'm using... No one accuses me of lining the fish I'm catching...
Just a thought, sometimes the fly is very effective, as it looks completely different than what everyone else is tossing and the fish key in on it.
Cheers,
Nicole
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I can honestly say that I've experienced days when I'm flyfishing and the fly by far outproduces the gear. This has occurred for me on the Squamish, Vedder, and Chehalis systems over the years. Sometimes I wonder if the fish go for the fly just because it's a different presentation alltogether from the gear. The fish aren't used to seeing flies as opposed to bait, wool, spinners, etc. Of course, this isn't always the case - but it can happen! There are also times when the fish key on one particular pattern and if the fly isn't exactly right - no fish! However, change up and bang - fish on! I've had this happen so many times.. ;)
Does the fly line get into the zone? Absolutely! Can some fish be flossed or snagged by the fly? Yes, particularly if one purposely tries to snag fish - this can be done very easily with a fly rod (unfortunately). However, for reasons I can't explain, sometimes the fish turn on and take the fly too! And sometimes they swim away from the fly... :-\. The point is - flyfishing can be very effective for salmon. :)
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All good comments on the fly/flossing issue.
Most flyfishermen/women I know do not floss for Salmon even though at times if you are still learning how to properly drift a fly there is a chance that fish will be flossed.
A lot of this depends on the water you fish and how fast the flow is.
Last week we were fishing the main flow on the lower Vedder with monocore (slime) lines and weighted flies. All the fish we caught were hooked inside of the mouth any many of these fish followed our flies and continually snapped at them until we set the hook.
Nicole is right, most flyfishers can tell the difference between a hit or body bounce. When in doubt I will not strike right away and usually with in a few seconds the fish will take the fly. Very often you can see them chasing it down.
So far this year I have only snagged 2 fish. Ironically both in frog water. One was a Chum and one was a Coho on Sunday that we saw refuse my fly, turn and dart away. The Coho snagged itself in the tail.
Unfortunately, at times it is unavoidable to snag the odd fish (without intent) and it happens to many people using all types of gear.
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As I said in my last post go to Squamish during the Chum season and you will see 20-30 fly fishermen lined up along the beach every single one of them using a sink tip and a ten foot leader !! this is exactly the same setup I have seen from every fly guy/ girl I have seen fishing the vedder this year !! this is the ultimate flossing tool !!!! If you think that these people on the Squamish aren't flossing the chum then you are kidding yourself, the reason I am responding to this post is because for years I have listened to the fly people talking about how " Ethical" they are for fly fishing.. how the river should be closed to all fishermen but them .... and then they stand there and floss the fish one after the other, they might as wel be tossing betties !!! now if you are using a floating line and a weighted fly then yes I agree that is a great way to avoid flossing.. the point is only 10% of the fly peoples are using this combo !!
IMO opinion the only true form of absolute" Ethical " fishing is either short floating with a slow drift, or tossing a dry fly ..
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As I said in my last post go to Squamish during the Chum season and you will see 20-30 fly fishermen lined up along the beach every single one of them using a sink tip and a ten foot leader !! this is exactly the same setup I have seen from every fly guy/ girl I have seen fishing the vedder this year !! this is the ultimate flossing tool !!!! If you think that these people on the Squamish aren't flossing the chum then you are kidding yourself, the reason I am responding to this post is because for years I have listened to the fly people talking about how " Ethical" they are for fly fishing.. how the river should be closed to all fishermen but them .... and then they stand there and floss the fish one after the other, they might as wel be tossing betties !!! now if you are using a floating line and a weighted fly then yes I agree that is a great way to avoid flossing.. the point is only 10% of the fly peoples are using this combo !!
IMO opinion the only true form of absolute" Ethical " fishing is either short floating with a slow drift, or tossing a dry fly ..
Sounds like you need to be taken flyfishing, let me know when you're ready to learn, and I'll take you out... I don't mind at all.
All we've been using are slime lines or dry lines with 10 feet of flouro leader, and only one chum has been foul hooked so far... So I'm guessing you haven't seen this fly girl out there :)
And for shortfloating to be as ethical as fishing a dry fly, you'd be needing to fish a corkie on the surface as well... To be equal and all. You can clearly see now how much sense this comment makes.
Cheers,
Nicole
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As I said in my last post go to Squamish during the Chum season and you will see 20-30 fly fishermen lined up along the beach every single one of them using a sink tip and a ten foot leader !! this is exactly the same setup I have seen from every fly guy/ girl I have seen fishing the vedder this year !! this is the ultimate flossing tool !!!! If you think that these people on the Squamish aren't flossing the chum then you are kidding yourself, the reason I am responding to this post is because for years I have listened to the fly people talking about how " Ethical" they are for fly fishing.. how the river should be closed to all fishermen but them .... and then they stand there and floss the fish one after the other, they might as wel be tossing betties !!! now if you are using a floating line and a weighted fly then yes I agree that is a great way to avoid flossing.. the point is only 10% of the fly peoples are using this combo !!
IMO opinion the only true form of absolute" Ethical " fishing is either short floating with a slow drift, or tossing a dry fly ..
Sounds like you need to be taken flyfishing, let me know when you're ready to learn, and I'll take you out... I don't mind at all.
All we've been using are slime lines or dry lines with 10 feet of flouro leader, and only one chum has been foul hooked so far... So I'm guessing you haven't seen this fly girl out there :)
And for shortfloating to be as ethical as fishing a dry fly, you'd be needing to fish a corkie on the surface as well... To be equal and all. You can clearly see now how much sense this comment makes.
Cheers,
Nicole
First of all I realize that you don't intentionally floss fish so my comments aren't aimed towards you ... and yes one day I would love to fish with you and learn a few tips !!
the point I was trying to make is that a short floated presentation drifted slowly through a run has a very low chance of flossing a fish .. on the other hand a dry fly has zero chance of flossing a fish.. so technically you are right :)
please don;t take my comment personally , they are aimed at other fisher people the kind that Floss " Ethically " :)
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None taken, no worries! I just like debating...
:)
Nicole
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Rick,
I've seen fish snagged by short floating and dry line fishing. I've had trout either reject the fly and turn causing the fly to get snagged on it's body and I've also had trout jump on the dry fly and get hooked (this is not uncommon for trout to land on a surface bug then come back to eat the stunned insect). Snagging the odd fish can't be helped no matter what the gear.
I don't think fly tossers purposely go out to floss Chum. Many probably don't even think that they may be doing this when they are out fishing. Chum on the Squamish or any other system are easy to take on the retrieve in pretty well all types of water.
As for sink-tip lines, it depends on how you are fishing that might be considered flossing. I use type 5 and 8 sink-tips with short 4-5ft leaders and weighted flies in slower deep runs to get down to the fish. Once I feel the fly is deep enough I start my retrieve. Probably 70% of the fish I catch is on the retrieve in these conditions and not the drift.
If you think I'm an ethical flosser with the flyrod, you're wrong. I sent you an e-mail last week and you could of come out and seen for yourself.
By the way I also use drift gear and love tossing spoons to Coho (which by the way are also possible to snag on occasion fishing this way).
Wishing all of you a good Salmon season - no matter what type of gear you use.
Dennis
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its all about intent. doesn't matter what gear you use. i've seen flossers in all forms, unfortunately, they give the rest of the legitimate fishers, a bad name.
i'm not an expert on flyfishing, but i know flourocarbon sinks faster than mono, so if you use 10 ft. for leader combined with a weighted fly, how deep from the surface are you really fishing? just curious.
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its all about intent. doesn't matter what gear you use.
Bingo !
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4X4 I am sure that you are a good ethical fisherman as is Nicole !! and I know there are a ton of others out there !!
maybe I need to make myself clearer to you, I have stood beside flyfishermen for many years I have watched how they fish, 99.9 % of the fish they catch are caught while their sinktip line sweeps through the school of fish, not while they are retrieving .. I have helped release the fish they catch and they are almost always hooked in the corner of the mouth , I have also witnessed the flyfishermen outfish the shortfloaters 3-1 even 4 -1 ... even the guys using betties get outfished by these fly flossers.... and it isn't just a few it is hundreds.. go to the Squamish this fall and see for yourself.. even a prominent fly teacher from the lower mainland was up there last year showing me how easy the fish were flossed with almost every drift.. I have used my fly gear and I have seen how it works....
those fly fishermen and fisherwomen that fly fish the frog water and lakes are not flossing the fish and I am not talking about those people... I am talking about the people that set up their fly gear so that they can sweep through the run and take the most amount of fish.. they catch fish after fish and then they get online and bash all the flossers from the sockeye season... we saw a guy last week at the Ranger run using an 8 inch length of chain followed by approx 15 feet of leader through the fast water... on his spey rod :o
4X4 if you don't use this method then you are not who I am talking about and you don't need to defend yourself to me
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I don't know where you're pulling these numbers from. I do realize alot of people flyfloss on purpose, and alot of people fly floss because they don't know any better, but there are still ALOT of fly fisherman that fish with the intent to ethically hook fish. I think your numbers are a little bit more than exagerated.
On a side note, it seems that there has been a general shift to "catching" rather than "fishing". This being over the last few years while i have been concious of the difference.
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flossing debates, thats all the forums have been turnin into
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Unfortunately, there are anglers who use "questionable" means to hook fish - no matter what method is employed. I for one use both the drift rod and fly rod - although I am much more experienced with the latter. Yes - I do use a sinking tip system and change tips according to the conditions. Yes - I can generally tell the difference between a "bump" and a "strike". No - I do not jig or rip the fly through a school of fish. It is no fun trying to land a foul hooked salmon with a fly rod! It's also not fun losing flies that I spent time tying myself - and snagging fish is a great way to lose flies.
With respect to the drift set-up, I feel that there is a level of skill involved with establishing the right presentation. I love hooking coho while short floating with roe bags (yes - a fly guy who uses roe bags). I have yet to master the blades - as I've only hooked and lost a handful of coho on blades.
So - I guess my point is to thickrick - I'm sorry you've come across fly fishers who feel that their way is the only way. Yes - you can floss fish with flies - but anyone can attempt to floss fish with any method. I depends on the individual angler - not the method. And yes - flies can be extremely effective under the right conditions... ;)
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I forgot to mention - I've experienced so many times when a particular fly pattern is the ticket. For example, when flyfishing for pinks, it can be a fish a cast - but with the wrong fly - you'll get nothing! That tells me that the fish do take the fly readily...
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Being a flyfisher myself, I feel I can comment on this,and I have to agree with Thick Rick. All the flyfishers I've watched so far this season were flossing. Like drift fishers these days, only 10% seem to be actually fishing. So there is a problem with every type of fishing- its the intent of the fishers.
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I forgot to mention - I've experienced so many times when a particular fly pattern is the ticket. For example, when flyfishing for pinks, it can be a fish a cast - but with the wrong fly - you'll get nothing! That tells me that the fish do take the fly readily...
Its pretty hard to have the wrong fly isn't it, a pink anything will do.
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I forgot to mention - I've experienced so many times when a particular fly pattern is the ticket. For example, when flyfishing for pinks, it can be a fish a cast - but with the wrong fly - you'll get nothing! That tells me that the fish do take the fly readily...
Its pretty hard to have the wrong fly isn't it, a pink anything will do.
Yea right try the beach they can be very tight lipped :-\
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I forgot to mention - I've experienced so many times when a particular fly pattern is the ticket. For example, when flyfishing for pinks, it can be a fish a cast - but with the wrong fly - you'll get nothing! That tells me that the fish do take the fly readily...
Its pretty hard to have the wrong fly isn't it, a pink anything will do.
Yes - you're generally correct. But sometimes I like to experiment with new patterns that I've tied up. Some work, some don't. It sounds crazy, but after hooking fish after fish, I like to change things up to see what's happening and do some experimenting.
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I forgot to mention - I've experienced so many times when a particular fly pattern is the ticket. For example, when flyfishing for pinks, it can be a fish a cast - but with the wrong fly - you'll get nothing! That tells me that the fish do take the fly readily...
Its pretty hard to have the wrong fly isn't it, a pink anything will do.
Yes - you're generally correct. But sometimes I like to experiment with new patterns that I've tied up. Some work, some don't. It sounds crazy, but after hooking fish after fish, I like to change things up to see what's happening and do some experimenting.
I see, gotcha. It doesn't sound crazy to me, you're just enjoying this great sport we do.
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I see, gotcha. It doesn't sound crazy to me, you're just enjoying this great sport we do.
You got it! Mind you - those "fish a cast" days don't happen that often (for me anyway)...unless I've found the right chironomid (oh - that's lake fishing :D).
Here's a fond memory - back in 2003 (oh what a pink year that was), we were flyfishing the Harrison mouth for pinks. I tried every dang pink fly in my box and - nothing! Then - I managed to pick out a fly that I tied (as an experiment). This fly was very simple - all marabou. The colour was the key. It was a "cerise" colour as opposed to all the other shades of pink I had in my box. First cast out with this fly - a few strips - and WHAM! A nice pink doe comes to hand. This happened about a dozen more times until the fly disintegrated! I had one more fly of the same pattern - and after a dozen more fish, that fly was also finished. I went back to my original pink flies and - nada!