Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: buck on October 02, 2006, 09:57:27 PM
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Fishing the Vedder this year has turned into gong show to say the least. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone out there really know how to fish. I've come across anglers who just can't help riping the float through the water at the end of every drift. Then there's the long liners who must think there super stars who are hooking springs, dogs and coho consistently. I think a lot of these guys have migrated from the Fraser to the Vedder. Oh yes, there are the sight anglers who are targeting holding coho at the cement slab below the limits hole. These guys really should be charged with harassment to salmon. I could rant on but whats the use.
On a more positive note, we had our first fish sort today at the hatchery and processed over a thousand coho, all of which were larger than in past years. Lots of fish in the 8 - 10 lb range. Some fish to 14 lbs.
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When we were out fishing this past weekend we stopped at the crossing. Merc and I were having a discussion about this. I used to get really annoyed at them but lately I am less annoyed. I know that some of them know better and those ones I cant stand. Than their are the guys that just do what everyone else is doing since they are new to the sport. For example. I saw this one guy at the crossing. He had a brand new bait caster and drift rod. ( Probably stopped in at Fred's just before fishing ) He also had a huge salmon net and a small cooler. He would pull line out of his reel and throw the line out. So he would have maybe a 6-7 foot drift before reeling back in. Before he started I saw him looking around at everyone. He than adjusted his float which was about 9 feet from his hook. He would than do a rip at the end of his drift, just like what everyone else was doing.
Can you blame this guy? I don't, since that's all he knows because that's what everyone else is doing. Its those people that we need to talk to and educate them. The more people we can talk to the less people we will have out there doing it. Of course their are going to be people still doing it since all they are in it for is to catch as many fish as they can at any cost. We just have to report those individuals and hope they get caught.
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Hi all,
I am one of these people. I've fished all my life but am new to BC so when I turn up I do often copy others at least initially until I get a feel for what's going on. I've still not landed a Salmon so I still haven't got a good feel for it yet.
Last time I was on the Vedder I was told by guys who looked like they knew what they were doing (and catching) to fish so deep that the lead is just of the bottom, hitting the odd rock, and to use a leader of about 3foot. This was back in July when I came down to fish the for the early spirings. I still didn't catch anything but figured I wasn't seeing the hits on the float that others were, they must have been subtle hits! - experince I guess?
Is this method OK or am I classed as flossing/snagging?
I'm coming back down (from Vernon) in a week or so for another try. Can someone tell me how I should fish (with a float)? I don't really care what species I catch, any Salmon would be a first for me, but having said that is there specific ways of targeting a spring over a Coho, the Sockey has me totally confused as everyone says they don't bite and you can only snag them.
So it'd need to know an acceptable leader length and the distance from the bottom I should be fishing (is this species specific?)
I have read a hell of a lot of articles about fishing in BC both online and on the web, and never have I come across this info - it would be really useful if someone would put an article together explaining the rights and wrongs of fishing for different salmon species, and how to go about it in an ethical way - from a purely sport fishing perspective.
Finally I don't understand the criticism of people fishing for fish they can see, is it that they are just trying to pull hooks into the fish, but other wise if I saw a load of fish I'd want to put a bait or lure in front of them?
Finally I assume casting a spoon/lure/spinner is pretty OK?
Hope you guys can help me out a bit here,
tightlines,
cheers,
Paul.
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Paul, there is info about short floating here, and I am sure Rodney will give you the link. The main thing is your float should be drifting down the run in a vertical position not laying on its side as this method in most cases will lead to snagging or flossing fish which unfortunately is going on in increasing numbers as Buck as mentioned.
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bbronswyk2000...
no you can't blame that guy. almost everyone i've ever known (including myself) has gone thru that stage, where they've tried everything and anything to catch fish. it was an easy transition for myself, because i've fished the saltchuck since i was 9, so i only had to adjust to the different techniques and sharpen my river 'knowhow'. hopefully with guidance and time that person will progress to the next level. i believe, unless you were lucky enough to learn from an experienced fisher, that people can only learn thru trial and error. what irks me are the people who don't enjoy the art of sportfishing and don't give a rat's my friend about the regulations.
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I too don't blame the guy if he's starting out and don't know the ropes. Most of us has progressed past that stage. What gets my goat are the guys who know what they are doing is wrong and is still doing it.
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Buck this is the price we pay for having the sockeye fishery on the Fraser that we have debated over and over again. Of course when we debate this and what we see it is doing to our fishery a number of us are said to be elitist etc. but all I have to say the proof is in the pudding now boys as we observe what we have created, a monster on the Chilliwack Vedder River system.
Unfortunately it now seems we have gone to the point of no return as you have mentioned in your post that a very high percentage of people are using this method now. As well some, but not all donot know any better, those that do should be ashamed of themselves to have to use these methods to catch a fish on the Chilliwack Vedder or any other river for that matter.
If someone has an answer what can be done to swing the pendulum back to what angling used to be about I would be interested to hear, it will not be easy in my mind maybe impossible.
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Buck this is the price we pay for having the sockeye fishery on the Fraser that we have debated over and over again. Of course when we debate this and what we see it is doing to our fishery a number of us are said to be elitist etc. but all I have to say the proof is in the pudding now boys as we observe what we have created, a monster on the Chilliwack Vedder River system.
POLITICS that's all it is. if they can implement regulations regarding hooks...ie the saltchuck and outlaw fishing techniques, ie...chumming and the use of light to attract fish.. they pretty damn well can outlaw bbing from the vedder and other smaller systems.... the problem is THEY CHOOSE NOT TO
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In all respect how do you prevent someone with a 2 to 3 foot leader, what a lot of people use but then lengthen out there float length to a depth far greater than the run they are fishing so as they are sweeping through the run. As in a lot of cases the fish are in a fairly confined area especially in the low water conditions we have now and it is just a matter of time a fish is flossed or snagged.
The only way that this could maybe be corrected is to educate people that this is not the way to angle. Fine and good but we have so many now that want to continue the sockeye opportunity on the Fraser so of course, many, not all I must add are just going to carry it over to our other systems. To many it is the way to catch a fish, that is the bottom line, once again I am sorry to say, no easy answer, to me any way. :(
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why not regulate the weight? you might not abolish the method, but you can hinder it. even if people don't always follow the rules, nothing wrong with implementing them.
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As BB2K was saying earlier, we had a discussion about this on Sunday while we were at the Crossing. There are two definite camps, IMHO. There are meat fisherfolks, and sports fisherfolks. Within both camps there are those who know what they are doing and those who don't. And, the line isn't set in stone. Sometimes you're a meat fisherfolk, sometimes you're a sportie and vice versa. But I'm speaking in very broad generalities here. And like in all things there are those who don't really know what they're doing and those who do. I have little time or patience for those who fall into the latter and try to pass on some info for the former. This is a situation where Dr Frankenstein has created a monster and now it's running rampant. Actually, it's more like Dr Oppenheimer creating the atom bomb and all the rest of the world trying to create more bombs in order to keep up. For those who paticipate in the Fraser sockeye fishery, this is the spillover that happens. Chris is absolutely right about that. Regardless of whether or not you choose to leave that style of fishing to sockeye in the Fraser, your participation in the sockeye fest makes you implicitly culpable for this type of behavior as the signals go out that this kind of fishery is acceptable. I also accept that I am guilty of this for my participaton. And for those who argue that the law allows it on the Fraser...the same law also allows it on the Vedder. I don't want to turn this into a rant, I just want people to understand the repercussions of the Fraser sockeye fishery.
As to changing the laws or regulations. I've said on different occasions that changing laws requires a significant amount of political will. And the regulations, as an adjunct to the Fisheries Act, also requires a fair bit of political will, just a lot less than that required to change the Fisheries Act. But, changing the law without enforcing the law is a useless waste of everyone's time. They become scoff laws: laws in fact but not in practice. And, the political stakeholders who are responsible for changing the regulations, are realistically, not overly concerned about what a few fisherfolks. with a conscience, think. Hard brutal facts. So, at a grassroots level, education becomes the only tool that we can use to make changes around our own environment. Show people how to short float, watch as they catch a few fish, and then you have converts (in the ideal world). Show them what kind of water to look for when fishing cohos, springs etc and stay away from the gong shows. In the meantime, write to your local MP to lobby for changes in the laws and for more enforcement on the rivers. Once Pandora's box was opened, there's no shutting it...no re-locking up the evils that were let out. But at the bottom of the box there is one tiny creature inside called Hope that was also let out. We control that "Hope" for a better fishing environment by educating others. Then go after changing the laws. Have some people from this site run for election. ;)
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Murkeywaters, some links available for you and others who maybe interested:
How to float fish more effectively for coho? (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7906.msg73635#msg73635)
Short Floating Tactic Explained (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/articles/2003/1003_01.html)
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One thing we need to keep in mind. Why is there so many different fishing style? Well it's to suit different situations and the finally result is to catch fish. If your not there to catch fish then why not go hiking, that'll save you lots on gears.
Why do we use graphite rods, and reels? Why not use stick and horse tail lines with hooks made of bones? They snap easy, that's why. So really is any one fishing style better than another?
What's more important is to educate people never drag a fish on to beach or exhaust out a fish only to throw them back to die. That is not C&R. Also no multi dipping. Stay within your allowed limit. If anyone needs nourishment during fishing trip please take away what you brought in.
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I talked to a newfie and he said back home if your hook went 4" under water you were fined for snagging? Don't know how true this is but I am sure all the top water fly-fishers would like this idea. Has anyone ever top water fished the vedder with the fly rod? Has anyone caught one?
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Tangled up, no to the top water question. Doubt that would be happening, and the newfie was probably talking about atlantics... Different beast entirely.
I think the 10 salmon limit per licence has to get started soon... That way most of the sockeye people will be limited out, and you won't see them on the vedder. I think making people very picky about what they kill would be a good thing... And get the summer harvest anglers off the rivers in the fall.
It would also be good during sockeye season, as it would slow down double dipping, and also people catching fish for everyone else (ie uncles, sisters, the boss). I think that is a huge problem right now.
I'd also be okay with increased penalities for snagging... I think if someone is caught snagging they should have their car impounded, never to be returned. Auction proceeds go to habitat and conservation.
Cheers,
Nicole
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Buck this is the price we pay for having the sockeye fishery on the Fraser that we have debated over and over again. Of course when we debate this and what we see it is doing to our fishery a number of us are said to be elitist etc. but all I have to say the proof is in the pudding now boys as we observe what we have created, a monster on the Chilliwack Vedder River system.
Chris, I fished the Fraser River from many bars from Chilliwack to Hope this summer, and other summers. I did see some unethical fishing styles now and then. But, nothing like what I am witnessing on the Vedder so far this year. It seems like almost everyone within my sight of vision is desperate to catch a fish by whatever method possible. Snagged fish, caught on bouncing betties with 14 foot leaders are a common site. I witnessed 3 generations of the same family bouncing betties on 50 Lb. braided line and hooking a spring through the eye. When I drew their attention to this, the father yelled that it's in the head and that's all that counts. BONK! The aggressive behavior and the rudeness is unequaled in my years of experience,
So, I take exception when you compare this to the Fraser River fishery. What brought on this desperation to get a fish by any means I have no idea. Is it hunger? Is it greed? Is it frustration when we are witnessing others who seem to get more privileges than the majority of Canadians. May be it's all those things, and more. But, it's disgusting and disturbing. For the first time in the 10 years I have been fishing the Vedder, I am not enjoying it. I will seek more remote areas where I don't have to even witness these behaviors, but that does not help the fish.
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We also need to understand that hatchery programs the funding comes from fishing license. If we change the regulation how will the current funding level be effected? Would this actually be better? One question I do wonder is how many people out there fishing actually bought a fishing license w/ salmon stamp?
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Actually that is not true, the feds fund the hatchery, and that funding comes from general tax revenue.
The freshwater hatchery that stocks lakes with trout is run by the freshwater fisheries society, which is funded by freshwater fishing licences.
Here is a link:
http://www.gofishbc.com/whofunded.htm
Cheers,
nicole
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Hmm okay, so where does all that money from salmon stamp really ends up?
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Politicians expensive trips & 5-star hotels, not in the 600k coho being cut. >:(
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Hmm okay, so where does all that money from salmon stamp really ends up?
Only $1 dollar from each stamp sold goes to conservation and the rest goes to general revenue!
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Hey Bill, please read Nicole's link again. Licences are Provincial fees and those fund the programs outlined in Nicole's link. Harper is Federal, which funds the hatcheries from general funds.
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Nostro, your right, for the first time fishing the Vedder has become an experience one would like to forget. I witnessed a guy at the cement slab below the hatchery today hook fish after fish, all deliberately snagged. This guy was on the back side of the river and was sight fishing with Polaroids. One hatchery staff member shouted across to him that he should use a treble hook as it would make it much easier. He took offense to this and wanted to settle the issue with fisticuffs.
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Buck, thanks for the latest status for hatchery returns. Your comments " On a more positive note, we had our first fish sort today at the hatchery and processed over a thousand coho, all of which were larger than in past years. Lots of fish in the 8 - 10 lb range. Some fish to 14 lbs." are these fish sold off to supermarkets since they are processed? On many occasions in the years past, a tour to the Chilliwack hatchery I would witness hatchery staff sorting/processing salmon and placing them into large blue containers. Staff members have mentioned many times to us that they sell off surplus fish even for as little as 20 cents a pound! :-[ Now after reading your post about sight, long lining and snagging, I would say both parties are guilty of harassing these wonderful creatures. The fishermen with their need to take fish home by any means :D and the hatchery expects large returns so they can sell of more($$$). Hopefully I read this all wrong, good to hear of a 1000 Cohoes in the hatchery already. :o
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As sight fisherman I resent the slurr. Yes I sigth fish I want to see exactly how a fish reacts to my fly especialy when I am try to come up with a new pattern. As a sight fisherman I am also selective on which fish I target. I am not interested in numbers, been there done that, after enough 50 trout and 30 salmon days, the ego thing fades and all you get is tired. So I like to target healthy fish which I know will survive when released; and as for the ones I keep I get first rate quality. For my application sight fishing is selective fishing as apposed to the shotgun approach.
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Buck is referring to a slightly different type of sight fishing technique. ;)
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Point noted; thankyou Rod.
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im really liking nicoles approach with the limit thing
but i think 10 fish a year maybe a little low
what if youve got a family with a couple of teenagers
who like to eat salmon but are to busy playing nintendo lol
but i think a limit is a really good idea, after that its catch and release
for the SPORT of it.
but all the rules in the world wont mount to a hill of beans
if there is no one around to enforce it,
that is not a slander to those who are already out there enforcing our laws
i just wish we could have alot more of them.
who else out there would be willing to pay say ten twenty bucks more for there licience
with the proceeds going to more enforcement, i know i would
compared to alot of other countries weve got it pretty good here in canada
cnm
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Thanks for the links Rodney,
Seems I should have looked harder for the articles!!
All a lot simpler than I thought an other than fishing a little to deep it was good to know my methods didn't put me in the snag/floss category.
thanks for the help, look forwards to giving it a try shortly.
Tight lines,
cheers,
Paul.
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I feel Buck's frustration and submit that angling is in very serious trouble.
Im curious as to solutions to this issue. Many have been around and around the issue that many feel began and continues to fuel this problem (Fraser sockeye snagging/flossing). But I believe we are way beyond expecting debates on the topic to fix the problem. This is keeping in mind the root of the debate surrounds the following:
Ethics
Morals
Fair chase
Acting in a sporting manner
Respect to the resource
etc..
I submit that if one brought these issues forth to 90%+ of the people 'fishing' the Keith Wilson Bridge, these questions would be met with blank stares. It wont be because they cant hear you over the "RIPPPPPpppp" sounds as they all keep setting their hooks, it will be because these ideals have no meaning to most of these guys. They are not out here for those reasons, and they cannot be blamed for it. They are here to harvest. It is no different AT ALL from the Fraser sockeye to them because it ISNT different. The above questions are easy for myself and others of whom were brought up to fish within angling standards or to stay home if not. This is why many of my friends did not fish, because it was too boring and it was easier and probably more exciting to get a fish from the store.
But now, a manner of 'fishing' has been discovered that takes the boredom and lack of catching out of angling and they come out in droves because the things that held them back from fishing before no longer exists. Sadly, the things that kept them away are CRUCIAL to the sport and without them, well, we can all see what's happened regardless of agreement on how we got to where we are now. Dont get me wrong, new anglers are great and I love nothing more than taking a new angler out fishing, but as in most everything else, you want to participate, you must follow approprite standards. It shouldnt be any different for fishing.
Sure, there's always been the guy who snags fish, kicks fish back into the water, takes more than he needs and is only there for the meat. We used to call them poachers (when they snagged) and while some may protest to this statement, they were always considered non-sportsman (beeks) and while right or wrong, it helped keep this angling element down to a dull roar. When I started fishing, the majority fished to get a bite. The amount of garbage, abuse to fish and abuse to angling seen was minimal. Now, it has completely reversed; the majority 'fish' to get a fish in any way possible. Welcome "it's close enough to the mouth" mentality and anyone who speaks up now either gets blasted for being an elitist or is genuinely misunderstood.
What do we do? Ive done what I can. I stopped snagging the Fraser River for sockeye as I feel this started the problem we have. Sure, I got my two, picked up my and others' garbage and left. Ideally, I and others could do this and there wouldnt be as much a problem. But there IS a problem, and the only choice for me as a step in the right direction was to set an example that snagging of any kind in any place for any reason is wrong. How else can I express and share concern on the topic unless Ive made a clear and solid position?
I try to educate and share ideas and this has produced mixed results and major hard feelings. While there are many anglers on the fishing boards who do/should know better, how many are being reached that cause the real problem as Buck described? (The cause started by the guys who used to (myself) and still do snag sockeye) As I stated earlier, do many if any guys who are snagging springs one after another waiting for one to be "hooked close enough to the mouth" come to a fishing forum/site that talks about ethics, sporting, and so forth? Probably not. And if so, how can they be expected to understand why it's ok to snag sockeye in the Fraser but not springs in the Vedder? Sockeye dont bite well for even the most seasoned angler. Springs might not bite well for a new angler. It's a double standard to expect someone to snag under one's own ideals. Either you have snagging in angling, or you dont. Sadly, we have snagging in angling and is anyone really surprised at the result?
Sure, more regulations sound like a waste thanks to the lack of enforcement, but it IS a step in the right direction. At least now, this problem has been identified as ILLEGAL. Let's not cut off our noses to spite our face. If we can get a law to help deal with this (heck, just simply edit the definition for snagging in the regulatons!) it will help. Why hasnt a law been brought in Ive heard asked? How many have asked/pressured for it?
A bag limit is also going to be needed like Nicol said. The number of fish can be debated, but at least then it may help get the meat anglers off the river.
There's probably going to be negatives in the steps required to combat the problem identified in this thread. But before we scrap an idea, ask ourselves, how much worse can we make it?
I hope my ramble is taken well and as intended; a free and respectful sharing of ideas. I touch on snagging/flossing several times, but by no means do I intend to debate with someone's choice to do it for sockeye (as Im assume no one supports flossing the Vedder?). It was purely used as MY opinion and examples of ideas needed to address the problems in this thread; guys snagging fish in the Vedder River.
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That's the finest post you've written 2:40!
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I feel a bit weird when I read this kind of topics.
Fo me fishing is and as always be about looking after healthy fish (if possible wild) and finding a way to make them bitting. I do not consider long linning as fishing, but if it is not illegal, I do not feel like I have the right to tell people not to do that. I would also prefer having an annual limit for the catch and even If I like bringing fish at home from time to time, I would be happy to fish more rivers completely catch and release. But eh, who am I to say that it is what fishing really is about?
In France, in lot of rivers, every year when trout fishing open, tons of farm fish are released. This poor fish are used to be fed by humans... so I let you imagine what happens, the worst fisherman you are, the more fish you catch... I do not consider that as fishing, but it is legal...
So do we have the right to say what fishing really is? I guess yes, but in this case this must go with some regulations. We cannot just say, the way I fish is better than yours just because I think it is.
This is just my opinion
sorry for the poor English
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I feel a bit weird when I read this kind of topics.
Fo me fishing is and as always be about looking after healthy fish (if possible wild) and finding a way to make them bitting. I do not consider long linning as fishing, but if it is not illegal, I do not feel like I have the right to tell people not to do that. I would also prefer having an annual limit for the catch and even If I like bringing fish at home from time to time, I would be happy to fish more rivers completely catch and release. But eh, who am I to say that it is what fishing really is about?
In France, in lot of rivers, every year when trout fishing open, tons of farm fish are released. This poor fish are used to be fed by humans... so I let you imagine what happens, the worst fisherman you are, the more fish you catch... I do not consider that as fishing, but it is legal...
So do we have the right to say what fishing really is? I guess yes, but in this case this must go with some regulations. We cannot just say, the way I fish is better than yours just because I think it is.
This is just my opinion
sorry for the poor English
C'est tres bon. Vous écrivez excelente...mais je parle comme un vache espagnol lol.
Did you buy any of the 2003 bordeaux? There were some great buys...
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Yep 2003 was a very good year.
this is perhaps the only thing I do not like in BC, the wine is so expensive... :D
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A few things,
Canoeman: you will be glad to know that the enforcement may be getting a huge boost in the near future as DFO is hiring 20 people to be trained as Fisheries Officers. I have never heard of such a large scale hiring in that department and I am excited about it.
As far as the bad news (AKA the Vedder fishery right now) lets look at a few factors
1) The water is low the fish will not bite, alot of the good rods know that and are avoiding the river leaving it as a free for all to be abused by the "beeks"
2) It is late in the year, when the water is low like this in early september that is one thing but early october? The fish are there and the water is not! Perfect for snagging with most of the fish stuck in the deep pools.
3) New fishers who try short floating with roe or chucking spoons will be frustrated with these water levels and may become desperate.
What I am getting at is these water levels are abnormal and hopefully next year we will have some rain before late october and the fishery will right itself a little bit. I think this year is a "worst case scenario" situation. I hope climate change will not mean every fall will be like this.
Personally I was out saturday and sunday and have never seen anything like it, I have fished the river for a long time and this weekend was definetly one of the lowlights of my time on the river. I will not be back untill it rises.
No easy answers and I am not offering any constructive solutions, just hoping this year is an anomoly. The lower mainland is exploding in population and I fear for the futures of the fisheries that support it especially the Vedder, Skagit and Thompson.
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Makes me think that some people did not get enough sockeye this year, or they have eaten them already and are looking for more...
The white chinooks in their plenty and hug size make it more attractive to make the trip... One fish means food for a month... And the fact that anglers can retain chum does not help either... That regulation has attracted some of these new less sporting anglers as well.
I really don't know what to do about the problem, other than requesting that a dedicated enforcement officer be assigned to the vedder... The number of tickets written would more than pay their salary...
Cheers,
Nicole
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Great post 2:40. Just had to say that!
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The times I phoned the Provies and DFO many. The times they came, Once> I am a old guy and the times I spoke to violaters many, the times I was told where my rod would go if I did'nt mind my own busseness, many. Times I felt sad for the Vedder. lots, untill I could,nt take take it anymore. Moved.
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I understand a meeting is going to happen shortly between some recreational anglers and FOC to deal with this growing problem.
I have been asked to attend as well. Feel free to list any solutions here that you may have to address this blight on sports angling that I can take to the meeting when it is called. Thanks very much.
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excellent post 2:40! ;)
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Just returned for a walk along the Canal portion of the Vedder River and I have in all my life never seen so many people out there. Of course being a holiday and a lovely Thanksgiving Day it has drawn many families out, including babies in strollers.
What is not so lovely is the sweeping is going on big time and fish after fish is being brought in, it is like a battle ground out out there with innards along with bodies of springs and chum everywhere, not a coho in sight.
People are standing about 3 feet apart in the area of KWB where the helpless salmon are schooled up, waiting to snagged by the multitude of hooks that are sweeping by them. What a shame that so many stoop to such methods to get a fish.
Also saw two garbage bags of discarded fish under the KWB. Apparently someone had taken over their limit and fled the scene when FOC arrived. FOC is supposed to be coming back to get them, for evidence.
Not much to be thankful for today, on the Vedder anyway on what is supposed to be Thanksgiving Day. :'( :o :( >:(
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Thanks for the report regarding what going on at the canel,but it just make me sick everytime i hear or see things like that ::) >:( >:( >:(
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Anyone tried to call the local media about all this? I would this would shame the DFO to do something about this.
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I don't know, some people may disagree with me but do you think things would be better if there were no retention on adult springs and chum? Maybe this would take the meat guys out of the equation. I remember fishing the vedder when the only salmon you could keep were coho and Jack springs. Some of the fish that I've seen kept this year were way past their prime and likely would have been wasted. I think that there is big kill anything for a trophy and bragging rights mentality going on here.
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Doug:you bring up some good points. But it would be interesting to see if DFO would have the balls to implement such a change in the regulations. They have such an invisible presence on the Vedder, it makes you wonder how much they really care about the fishery on the Vedder.
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"Feel free to list any solutions here that you may have to address this blight on sports angling that I can take to the meeting when it is called."
I think the problem is fairly obvious, that there is no enforcement to stop snagging fish . Snagging is in the regs. No COs or DFO people out there to regulate the problem. Leaves everyone pretty upset. You pay for a license an a conservation stamp to see nothing done with the money. Unless you call having another appeasement session with fishing folk and accommodation,meals and out of pocket expenses for DFO brass etc. something worthwhile. Work for the gov. so am especially jaded to the inner workings of it when politicians and self serving groups try to please buddies. While fishing gets turned to gravel mining. It's all business, and the soft shoe shuffle in the end.
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Thanks to all who apprecited my thoughts on this issue. ;D
As for ideas to take to the meeting, there has been some interesting ones presented already.
I think any way we look at it, we're all going to have to give up something in the cause to fix this.
Species retention limited to coho and jacks only during this time is an idea, but will sure hurt a lot of decent anglers. Plus, the hatchery puts a lot of money into the white spring run for rec. angling. Will a push for non-retention be well recieved? Will it work? I think it would be fairly effective, but maybe an idea to try after some more issues that are more of the root of the problem are addressed first.
I think consideration needs to be placed into flossing in general. I dont think we can fix the problem unless we remove flossing/snagging/sweeping/lining/sight fishing from all sport angling. I know the many guys here who get their two sockeye, clean up their garbage and leave may howl at this idea, but is a few sockeye worth what it supports and promotes on the Vedder and many other systems? I dont think Ive heard one member, flosser or not, on this site in support of what's going on under the Keith Wilson Bridge. Considering that each and every person using sockeye methods on the Vedder can give the same reasons guys give to use it on the Fraser for sockeye, there's no way to combat it unless it doesnt exist at all.
There has been some interesting ideas put forth of making the sockeye flossery into a harvest different from sport angling. While I wish this was done before people went out and did it and got this whole problem started (I was one of those :-[ ) has anyone made an effort in this regard? While I think it just opens a bunch of doors that no sport angler should ever open, Im still interested in hearing more of this.
Does sport angling have enough life in it to sit on the sidelines while people try to re-write what sport angling is about instead of taking a step back and fixing things before it really becomes too late?
I think not. Let's fix the problem and bring sport angling back down to a simple standard like it was meant to be; the fish must bite the hook. Then all anglers are on the same level and playing on the same field.
Sure, enforcement is lacking, but that doesnt mean we cant make more regulations necessary in light of a huge problem. Just because we dont have enforcement, should we remove all the regs we currently have? The number of regulations makes no difference when talking about how many people are out there to enforce them. Guys who want to break regs will get caught sooner than later, and it's not fun looking over your shoulder if your 6' leader is now illegal. It is a deterant.
Regardless of questions and possible negatives to ideas we have here, I say bring each and every one to the table. This is a serious issue out there, we cant make it any worse, and sadly, before things improve, we're going to have to give up a bit as well. It may be gear restrictions (no more 3.5 foot leaders for rubber worm) or no more sockeye flossing on the Fraser.
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Doug:you bring up some good points. But it would be interesting to see if DFO would have the balls to implement such a change in the regulations. They have such an invisible presence on the Vedder, it makes you wonder how much they really care about the fishery on the Vedder.
In all respect it is not that FOC does not care, it is us the recreational angler that has lobbied and fought for this openings in fresh water the last few years. As I have said many times as much as I hate to admit it I was part of the group that helped obtain these openings for what what supposed to be sports angling. However as most know on this board a good number of the fish caught on the Chilliwack Vedder these days are by the sweeping method. We have to be pretty blind not to see and admit this. As I mentioned earlier today sweeping was rampant in the Canal area today.
Of course the sockeye opening on the Fraser is no different and just fuels the hunger on other streams as well. Thanks for those have but forth ideas so far to be presented in the upcoming meeting that may bring sports angling back to what it should be.
To try and correct it some unpopular decisions will have to be made but in my mind if we are true sports anglers we should welcome these changes.
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Hi all,
Personally I would just make the whole of the Vedder catch and release. It's such a confined river with so much pressure that I just don't know why you don't. It'd surely get rid of the meat fishermen and leave it to the sport anglers.
I know I come from a different angling culture (UK) and probably most of you wouldn't want this, but if you love fishing then to me it's about the joy of hooking, playing and releasing the fish having had the privilege to see them up close and personal (perhaps a quick pic)- that's all I need to get my hit!
I struggle to understand the attitudes out here at times (but I'm the outsider I know that and am not wanting to preach just tell it how I see it – perhaps put a different perspective on it). I just don't get this selective attitude of fish "value" - but I guess this comes back to the value of the fish for the table.
I read about ugly, horrible Chum, white Springs that smell bad, Jesus guys you don't know how ******* lucky you are to be able to fish for these massive runs of quality fish for next to no cost!!! Never mind killing them. What brilliant sport you have be it Chum, Spring or Coho, isn’t it great to just be able to go out and get lots of sport? Although you are used to this there are hell of a lot of places on the planet where you are just glad to get a fish, you guys have the luxury of “deciding” which fish you want.
But hey that’s just how I see it. You really are lucky, try looking at what it’d cost you to fish for Salmon around the globe, and then you’ll realise. (and so many of these expensive places have tiny runs compared to what you guys get)
I've fished quite a lot of places around the globe (some very, very remote) and time and time again I find the stocks of once prolific fish reduced to pitiful levels by mans actions.
But here you still have fantastic runs of fish, close I guess to what mother nature intended.
I can see why you might want to keep the Frazer open for catch and retain, but a beautiful small river like the Vedder – well to me it is madness! But that’s just my opinion!
Now the lower mainland is getting increasingly populated I don’t see how river like the Vedder can sustain an ongoing taking of fish, it’ll only get worse and worse until you HAVE to do something. So rather than try and regulate the methods which we all know will never be effectively enforced (Ok I might be wrong but it’d need a lot of dedicated officers on there full time which I am sure will never happen). Why not just make it totally catch and release?
Do people need fish to eat that badly? No one is starving! Let them get their fill from the Frazer and give the fish that make it through a chance at spawning.
As I see it you can give the meat fishers their desire on the Fraser, and satisfy the sport anglers on the Vedder and similar rivers in this way.
Kind regards,
Paul.
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Posting these for Chris.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_1.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_1.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_2.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_2.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_3.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_3.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_4.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_4.jpg)
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Posting these for Chris.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_1.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_1.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_2.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_2.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_3.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_3.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_4.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_4.jpg)
Yes this was the scene at KWB today for those that have not seen it before. ::)
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Unbelievable. No way you're seeing me there. ::)
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Did a tour of KWB this afternoon with the FOC official we will be meeting with to discuss the present state of our sports angling so he could see first hand what is going on there. Needless to say he was not very impressed with what he saw.
This meeting will most likely go in November, please add any suggestion to this thread you may have that you would like discussed at this meeting so they can be put forward.
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I would like to see these so called "fishermen" charged and their equipment and vehicles confiscated but that's wishful thinking on my part.
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I've noticed a significant increase this year of dead fish on the shoreline that had obviously died before their time...ie: nearly clean springs lying in one foot of water and wasted before spawning because they had a hole put in their belly from a flossers hook!!!! I even saw it once during steelhead season. Might mention that along with all the rest....never used to be that you'd see what appeared to be perfectly intact salmon dead on the bottom with a huge hook sticking out of its gut....
this belly hunting, as I read someone so eloquently put it, is now having a more prominent and serious effect on fish than just harrassing them, or breaching ethics...it is now preventing fish from spawning that would otherwise spawn once released....this will permanently influence fish stocks/populations in years to come in an effect that will likely be cumulative as long as it is allowed to persist...it also renders completely redundant any regulations that are set in place to allow for safe release of species not designated for retention...ie: we have barbless hooks for many reasons, but first and foremost to safely and quickly release those fish that are incidental catches while fishing for retainable species...what's the point, if a fish gets a belly full of water, can't swim properly anymore and "drowns" ar dies of some infection within a day or two...?
How many people here have noticed fresh chrome fish lying dead on the bottom of the river? It is especially obvious down by KWB, but I am starting to notice it all over the river these days...I don't remember ever seeing that 10 or even 5 yrs ago...
if there is anything I can do to help, my support and and time are here,
rib
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so now that the Ved(and others) looks like the Fraser in August people complain?
funny there seemed to be allot of happy people around here last sockeye season
I know what most of you are probably going to say but none of it will matter, the damage has been done.
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I would have loved being able to write what Murkeywaters said and totally agree with him concerning the chum and white fisheries.
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you have a good point there leadbelly, but I didn't just start to complain...this is just the first you read of it here....and I amongst others (I assume), haven't fished the sockeye fishery since the first time I ever checked it out at least 7 or more years ago...
I don't think the double standards you are referring to are the problem though, do you? The problem is nothing is being done to solve the problem...I am sure I am not the only one that doesn't fish sockeye, and I'll bet more and more people will stop fishing sockeye as this problem progresses....I hope anyway...that's a start isn't it?
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so now that the Ved(and others) looks like the Fraser in August people complain?
funny there seemed to be allot of happy people around here last sockeye season
I know what most of you are probably going to say but none of it will matter, the damage has been done.
I find it very funny that the first time I ever met you Leadbelly was when you you flossing for Springs at Laidlaw Bar
the Vedder is no different now because of the Sockeye run, it is that way because of morons !! anyone with a brain knows that the fish on the Vedder bite and you don't need to long line them, but then again those idiots have been there for a long long time and it is no different now than it was ten years ago, same river same idiots...the only difference now is we havce reformed snaggers like you whining on all the sites !!!!
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well, I quit sockeye "fishing" and thats a start
clearly its a double standard. Once you take the sport out of sport fishing whats the difference what system its done on, or how much effort is thrown at it by the authorities or how many people are doing it or how frequently the fish in question bite or excuse du jour ad nauseum in perpetuity.
black and white in my mind, especially for those who should know better,and be setting an example for new or younger fishermen and women.
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Ill let my post above be my response to the new one by Rick, it seems appropriate anyway
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Leadbelly's right.
The root of the problem is accepted and legal snagging. It's fine for the few who leave it to sockeye and the odd spring in May...but aside from doing their part and making a stand against this problem, they are not the real big problem even though they and myself started the problem and those who still do it help keep it going a little bit and make it very difficult and even questionable to criticize those who chose to do it for the same reasons just on another system.
But even if all who happily snag the Fraser River but are scared at what they see happening on the Vedder stopped snagging tomorrow (more accurately, next May...or August), would the problem be fixed? Nope. (no reason to keep doing it though!) What has been produced now is a new breed of angler who do not fish for the reasons most of us fish nor do they care about issues that have come of it. There is no amount of education out there that will work beyond on maybe a bare few. While hard to watch, I dont hold it against these guys as they truely dont know or understand. I feel Im more to blame then they are for what's happened as I helped get the sockeye fishery off the ground because I DID IT and did not make an individual effort to do my part for sport angling at the time.
We can talk about closing sections of the river, limiting catches, regulating species. While all could have some use, why re-invent the wheel when we can go back to where angling was 12 years ago before people decided it was ok to bend the rules and introduce snagging? I submit we start at the logical point and focus on removing ALL snagging from sport angling. I know it will be a task, but we have to start some place. Remember, fishing was A-OK before the sockeye got going. We can make it ok again.
I like to think that a few sockeye and springs are not worth what happens on the Vedder and other systems, so hope we get some support here.
I'm also curious why a very similar gong show on the Fraser that ISNT confined to sockeye openings anymore (in other words, May 1 to closing) is any better than what goes on under the KWB. Could it be because the ones who have a voice of concern only speak up when it really effects them when they try to get near the river to get a coho to bite?
Dont mean to offend or anything, just exploring all aspects of this serious topic.
I look forward with keen interest and support as this effort moves forward. ;D
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It's ironic, because I had an experience the other day that is pertinent here and should share it... I was fishing the other day and next to me was a young boy fishing with his father....this young boys name was Travis. He had some problems because he had snagged bottom and couldn't get "undone"...he obviously didn't really know how to undo a snag because he was jerking on the fishing rod and causing a stir in the pool where he had caught bottom...his dad had moved down stream and Travis was looking to him, rather unsuccessfully, to get his attention to come and fix the problem. I noticed this and was annoyed at his water whipping attempts to remove his hook from a rock so I turned to young Travis and told him that if he moved upstream of where he snagged up, and then applied constant pressure with a little re-enforced pull on the rod he might get it free... he tried this and sure enough he got his rig free, without the weight of course....and he thanked me for my help. I then told him I would put some new lead on for him, so he could keep fishing...of course I noticed his leader was too long...and I offered to set it up the way it should be done, and he said "allright...", and so I cut down his leader, and put some new weight on...and then told him that if he wanted to avoid snagging bottom he needed to fish the right way... I asked him if he wanted me to show him and he said sure...so I told him about short floating and how it doesn't get you snagged ever, and how it doesn't scare the fish away if you miss a hook set, and then I told him..."you know that spot you kept casting to and you weren't catching anything??? if you cast just up from there behind that rock with the depth much shallower you won't snag bottom anymore, and your chances are better at getting into a fish" ...., "try it!" I said...well sure enough young Travis caught a white spring within a few casts on the short float and was very excited...! His father ran over giving instructions on how to play it and well, you can picture the scene I'm sure. Travis lost that fish, but that's not really the point of telling you about this little event that happened to me on monday morning, the point is...I spoke with his father after Travis lost the fish and told him it was good to see someone starting out so young and getting a day in with dad...well Travis' dad told me that he "took Travis sockeye fishing on the Fraser this year and that he had been hooked ever since....". This is how novices to the sport learn how to do things, and unless they unlearn them, these "methods" will perpetuate themselves and only become more prominent. I have never really offered much advice before on the river at least not to the extent that I had on monday, and with Travis being so young, he was more receptive to any influence I might have...and it felt good to see the light go on when he unhooked that snag...and it felt even better when I heard him telling his dad when they were leaving how "that nice man" had told him about "short floating" and "how quick it worked!"...
I know it sounds real cheesy, but no @*&$, this really happened just this holiday monday, and it really opened my eyes to how easy it is for people to miss something without even knowing it...including myself, obviously.
So, leadbelly and whoever else is listening, it's all fine and good to say you've quit sockeye fishing, and yes that's a start...but when all you can do is point out things like you said in your first post on this page, it really has nothing to do with fixing the problem, and everything to do with trying, but not succeeding, at saying something smart...I know your intentions are good, and you're frustrated just like the rest of us, but all of us picking fights and pointing blame here undermine what we really want to achieve don't you think?
thx,
rib
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this problem goes way beyond your everyday fishers. i was at a local tackle shop a couple of weeks ago, where the salesman was recommending braided line to a novice fisherman wanting to try out the vedder. his reasoning was so that if he was to get snagged, he would have a better chance of recoving his hardware. needless to say, the guy filled his spool with 60 lb test tuff line and the salesman made his 40+ dollars.
the ignorant newbies aren't the morons, as much as the greedy bastards who knows better than to sell them the wares.
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You want to stop the slaughter? Close the hatchery!!!
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Nice work Ribwart. ;D ;D 8) A true heartwarming story. I encourage all anglers to do this when the chance arises. Thanks for sharing.
Not to rain on your parade though, but there is no way to educate all out there or to use the above as the solution and expect it to work. Sure, there will be some who will learn to fish so the fish bite but they will be few and far between. I hope I dont sound negative. Im trying to be realistic. Between being no way to get to all the hoards of new sweepers out there, and the many, many who really are not interested in a biting method, it's going to be tough. Since most are not there for a bite so why will they change from something that's getting themselves into fish all the time to something that doesnt produce to the level they've grown to expect?
It will be like me trying to explain to guys why I feel they shouldnt snag sockeye and springs on the Fraser. I know from personal experience that the rate of anglers who have changed or even considered my thoughts on the topic as a thin number.
Keeping in mind that most who we are concerned about on other systems are using the same mentality as the before mentioned Fraser Flossers, how can we expect education and awareness to be anymore successful here than there?
Id sure like it to work though. Dont get me wrong. I just dont think it's possible. :'( :-\
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Good job Ribwart. What you did in that few minutes of educating young Travis did more than all the name calling that goes on this and other forums.
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I agree the problem is very complex and daunting...but I'd like to break things down a bit here...
If there are two schools of fishing...
one that shows people to fish one way ...ie: flossing sockeye and only really shows results and teaches nothing else, but that gets taught more and more from one season to the next, year after year...without any consideration or even mention of ethics...
and the other school of fishing ie: what we are advocating here...that shows them the benefit to not spooking fish by bumping them, or killing them within hours or days by belly hunting them, and not snagging bottom-ever...and that it provides much, much more exciting strikes and so much more, but is a school of fishing that doesn't really get taught much at all in comparison despite the fact that it also has benefits and ethics...
Then which school will succeed?
Obviously the first school of thought, by virtue of sheer numbers will cause the sport to evolve to flossing at a geometric rate! It's a pure numbers game, it doesn't matter if we're right...so yeah we need to educate...but no amount of education will over come the sheer numbers of newbies that will be educated in the other school for every one newbie we educate in ours....
So, in order for us to get anywhere, first we need to remove the first school's teaching methods...or... change what it is teaching...and over time, without its negative influence, the second school of fishing's teachings will get around to enough people that the proliferation of flossing/long lining/snagging techniques is on the decline, rather than on the rise....it's a slow, painfull, but, I think, effective long term approach to the problem that might not fix this thing before we are gone, but will for generations after us...
I know you've already made that point to some extent, and obviously I agree, but I know in my bones it is the only way to get started, otherwise all our efforts will be like trying to run in water.
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Maybe people would be more unlikely to fish here if we had Ontario's regulations in place. I just about pooped a carp when deciphering through that manuscript.
People are supposed to be responsible enough to know that regs apply in any given situation. If guides who take there clients out for a snag fest or dubious tackle shop salespeople act like dope peddlers, for bad ethics,and not explain proper fishing by regs and good ethics the whole thing starts to rot from the bottom to the top.
If there is no enforcement against the meat, or brag fishers, that have bad ethics and break regs, it rots on the bank of the river.
We learn by what we see and hear, and if you get busted down the road for getting bad info, then you stop listening to bad info. Or pay stiffer penalties
No reason not to have specific regs in place to deal with snagging fish. Just make sure they're enforced or they are worthless. People who fish like they do at KW are doing the above , either ignorant or smug about their ability to snag some meat to show off, without ever getting busted. And should you say something to them remember they don't have much mentality to start with.
Bust them Dano. We used to pay people to do that and not pay lip service to these problems.
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This entire problem of people snagging on the Vedder has nothing to do with the Fraser Floss fishery.. I know many many fishermen who take part in the Sockeye fishery who would never think of long lining or snagging on any other system.. to say the two are linked is a cop out !!!! the idiots that snag on the Vedder have been there since I started fishing that system when I was a young teenager, before flossing was even thought of, the Vedder river is full of salmon and it is close to the city which means a large population... idiots are idiots there just happen to be a lot more of them now, when I first started fishing the vedder I learned how to short float from the local tackle shop.. when I got to the river I saw all sorts of people ripping their lines through the water and these people were atching way more fish than me!! I could see that they were snagging the fish and that is why they were so successful, did this make me start snagging ??? NO It didn't ... why??? because I am not a fricking moron !!!!!! So 2:40 Leadbelly and all the other witch hunters on this site need to stop attacking the wrong people !!! yes there is a problem on the Vedder and other smaller systems !! yes it needs to be stopped !! but you are looking in the wrong places and I think everyone is getting a little tired of hearing the same crap over and over from the same few people !! if you want to do something productive then get out on the river with the DFO and get the snaggers off of the river... coming on here and comparing the Fraser to the Vedder is not going to do anything except irritate me and pretty much everyone else on this site...
THE PROBLEM IS THE VEDDER IS A PRODUCTIVE RIVER AND IT IS CLOSE TO A LARGE POPULATION !!!!!!!!!!!
UNLESS THE RIVER IS ENFORCED 24/7 NOTHING IS GONNA CHANGE !!!!
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Troutbreath....Agreed. bust em. so a concerted increase in enforcement for several seasons should relearn a few people... and I know it's unrealistic of me to think the sockeye fishery will be shut down, but that doesn't make my point above wrong...just means the solution to the problem isn't that obvious...if we can't shut down that fishery for obvious reasons, how can we change the habits it teaches?
Thick Rick, you are right...but recognize this too of course there are people that floss on the fraser and don't floss on the vedder...nobody is disputing that at all, at least I'm not...but you can't say that everyone who flosses on the fraser isn't doing the same on the vedder...can you? No. so my point is there are a bunch of little aspects of this problem that are all contributing to the whole...and we need to tackle all the issues in order to solve the problem rather than just one. Meaning, with hypothetical numbers here....if 100 people a year are learning that flossing/bottom bouncing is the only way to fish from the sockeye fishery and they aren't taught any differently...AND 100 people a year are learning to sweep from flossers on the vedder that had nothing to do with the fraser fishery but still sweep none the less, then why try to solve the later aspect and not the prior? They both contribute to the whole problem, and we can't solve the whole problem without tackling all the angles of it, don't you think? Nobody here is disagreeing with you that enforcement isn't a major issue...but if fisheries is already understaffed or shortmanned or overworked, but we get them to do more by an increased presence on the river and they bust 50 % of the people doing this from each aspect of the problem then it's still an uphill battle...but if they bust people as much as possible, AND a few other counter measures are added in such as some way to help re-educate people who learn from the sockeye fishery that you are supposed to be tapping bottom the whole time AND maybe an on river watchgroup that can help enforcment AND much stiffer regulations and penalties...AND reduced allowable retention, then and only then will we be giving ourselves a realistic chance at turning this bus around!!! Don't you realize that all of this is not due to just one thing? There are a bunch of contributing factors here...we can't just tackle one, and expect any significant result.
sorry didn't see you had written a new post below me here....will repond in a sec
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Agreed. bust em. so a concerted increase in enforcement for several seasons should relearn a few people... and I know it's unrealistic of me to think the sockeye fishery will be shut down, but that doesn't make my point above wrong...just means the solution to the problem isn't that obvious...if we can't shut down that fishery for obvious reasons, how can we change the habits it teaches?
The thing is where do you think people got the idea for flossing in the first place ???
Flossing was born on rivers such as the Vedder when people realized that lengthening their float dragged their presentation through the school of fish and in turn hooked more fish !! then idiots starting removing the floats completely and WHAM!!!! Flossing was born.. yes I agree that people need to be educated but continually blaming the Fraser for all the problems everwhere else grows so tiring !!!!! Anyone with a brain can floss on the Fraser and use shortfloat technique on every other system... Close The Fraser I couldn't care less if I get a few less pounds of fish a year... I converted two people on Sunday by setting up their Rod's for them, I gave away five floats all told !! this is what will change things .. not flinging blame around the web
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I agree with you whole heartedly there rick...my little adventure with young travis the other day definitely made me feel like making a difference was possible...but I think of how many new people are learning the whole bottom bouncing thing on the fraser each summer and there are probably 1000's of people who have never fished before that are introduced to fishing through the sockeye fishery, and then they hear about these other fisheries, like the vedder or the harrison or the chehalis and they probably come down and think they'll likely be fishing somewhat similar to how they did on the fraser....then they see a float on other peoples lines and they end up doing the whole bottom bouncing with a float thing....it's the reverse of how the whole flossing thing graduated from the vedder in the first place in your previous post!!!! but it's still a progression of a problem further and further from a solution...
That and others learn from watching the guys at KWB or elsewhere, who never fish the fraser fishery and they too start the whole bottom bouncing with float thing....so they are both legitimate contributors to the problem, amongst others...we need to somehow tackle them all in varying degrees if we are to succeed in changing things...or even stopping them from getting worse....cause that's all it's going to do. Get worse.
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Some good ideas are starting to surface here, thanks. We all know this is a very difficult subject that gets very touchy at times between many of us including myself. In one way this is good as it shows anglers are very concerned about what is happening out on the rivers.
However I think it has come to the point that we have to give it a good try and attempt to come up with some concrete solutions if at all possible to try to curtail what we see is happening right now on the Vedder River as I type this.
We must all try (including myself) to control our emotions and refrain from bashing each other as that will not, in my mind solve anything. It has now gone well beyond that, FOC is starting to listen to us on this subject and now that we may have their ear lets give them something to work with so we and the fish that we so treasure will both be winners. It will not be easy and we will just be fooling ourselves if we think that it will be but if we donot attempt to correct things we will have lost and that will not be a good ending as it will be the end of sports angling as it should be.
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Just a reminder so you know, the FOC fellow I took out yesterday will be reading this thread so it is your chance to relate good information and ideas to him.
I know most of you already know a number of FOC employees read FWR daily especially "The Journal". ;D ;D
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Good reminder. Aside from exploring, discussing and understanding the topic, we're sort of beyond the finger pointing game now that things have finally started to move forward. The problem(s) and source(s) have been identified. Time to put our energy into finding a solution now.
I look forward to being involved. 8)
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It's easy to get carried away....especially when so many of us here care so much about the consequences. I'm interested in hearing some of the ideas and considerations that you gentlemen might have with respect to finding a solution or how to tackle the problem...give my fingers a rest.
thx,
rib
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It is frustrating.. I do let my emotions get the better of me sometimes .. when I was out on Sunday there was a fellow across the river from me ripping two three times on every cast.. I kept glaring at him and he kept ripping away.. after about half an hour of this I couldn't take it anymore and I exploded on him... the bad thing is I let myself lose my temper. the good news is he imediately stopped ripping on every cast and actually started short floating . the guy beside me was long lining due to the fact he had a straight through float and no toothpick , solution I gave him two floats and a toothpick and taught him how to short float.. he caught fish and in turn showed his son how to short float !!! the three guys next to him were all fishing without a float but they wern't ripping with every cast.. I believe they had figured out how to bottom bounce without snagging as every foish they caught had wilfully taken the bait and had not been flossed.. we do as a whole need to find a solution because it is scary when you look at how things are progressing , more and more people every year are starting to fish , I honestly believe that we need to make examples of a few idiots and make the fines so big that it will deter others from fishing this way !! the mentality on the river often is who cares and rules don't apply to me!! Over the years I have gotten into it with a few of these persons and it has almost got ugly on more than one occasion , I have not given up the good fight yet but it does grow tiring, listening to a few people on these fishing sites fling mud grows even more tiring !!
TR
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Hey Chris, here are my suggestions:
-Replace the 10 chinook limit with a 10 mixed salmon per license limit, similar to steelhead. This will force anglers to make careful choices about the quality and species of fish they kill, and for whom (sorry neighbours and boss, go buy a license
-Require a salmon stamp to angle for salmon, same as steelhead.
-Create a junior license that would piggyback on an adult license. Enter the A number from the adult's on the child's license. This adult takes responsibility for the child's bag limit.
-create a law that would create a minimum space buffer between anglers. I'll start with 5 feet, so there is room for a side swipe for the CP anglers. Flyfishers would need more, but I doubt that would get anywhere. This may help reduce crowding in certain spots.
-leader length restrictions on all rivers in BC, lets start with 24 inches. To counter this, I fish longer leaders on the fly, 13 feet on a dry line sometimes, to get the fly away from the bright yellow fly line. So maybe this should not apply to flyfishers unless they are fishing tips.
-increase fines for intentional snagging, make consequenses stick.
-educate the public about good angling ettiquite.
-allow RCMP and municipal police to write tickets for angling infractions called in by the public. Right now it feels hopeless to call on weekends, as the CO's are out of the office and there needs to be a fast response if I'm threatening someone who is breaking the law.
If I think of anymore, I will edit this post.
Cheers,
Nicole
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I'd like to add...
- develope some cooperative program between fisheries and local tackle shops/guide services that pushes responsible angling techniques? Adding perhaps an informational supplement that can be handed out, in addition to the regs, to all fishermen... Give it some simple title, like "How to fish for salmon, and how not to fish for salmon"...you get the idea...guess this falls into Nicole's category of educating the public...
thx,
rib
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Excellent Ideas Nicole and Ribwort! I think a tag of 10 or similar number of salmon per year is long coming.
-Id add a course (angling exam) to be completed and PASSED before you can purchase a fishing license. No different from hunting or driving. You need to take the exam before you go out hunting or driving. This exam will have fish ID, fishing methods, as well as basic ethics and morals.
Not much work to create such a thing and it shouldnt be hard to find guys to run the course (a two or three evening course) on demand.
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-there will be languauge barrier for that test is some instances...perhaps doing an online test in various translations? How could you get around the various implications of that I wonder?
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A couple of years ago, I participated in a workshop put on by the Freshwater Fisheries Society of BC (Cammer, you may remember this one). The workshop brought together stakeholders from the freshwater fishing community i.e. tackle shop owners, tackle suppliers, environmental groups, fishing groups etc.. to solicit ideas on how to increase participation with regards to freshwater fishing. The society had noticed trends that the number of license sales were decreasing in the province (obviously not from the lower mainland) and wanted to formulate a plan through the ideas stemming from the workshop. The workshop was very structured and a facilitator was hired. This is very important as we all know how an unstructured meeting can degenerate rather quickly. I feel that we could benefit by conducting a workshop similar to this. In order for any plan to work, we need acceptance by everyone involved.
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Nicole and Ribwart bith have some excellent ideas !
I think that the annual licence first of all needs to be increased greatly in price, A freshwater licence should be around 200-250 dollars including steelhead and salmon tags, I agree there should be some form of test if nothing else to educate people on telling different species apart, Use the extra money taken in by the licence fees to get more enforcement on the rivers, and make the penalties much harsher as to make an example of a few law breakers... if the laws are enforced and people feel the penalties there will be far less problems on the river.. other than that I feel fisherman myself included should continue to educate others on the river..
In the end the trouble makers will still be there, people that are unwilling to listen and learn..but maybe one person at a time we can make a difference..
Maybe all salmon rivers will eventually have to be changed to no retention, and believe me as an addicted fisherman I would have no problem with that !! all I need is to feel that pull on the end of my line and I am a happy man
TR
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One thing that really erks me is when guys pull fish up on to the bank that they are not planning on keeping or not allowed to keep and then kicking them back in etc. I think there should be a regulation that prohibits people from dragging fish up on the bank not just a suggestion of proper handling techniques. I know this is off topic but does concern regulation changes. As for preventing flossing through regulation changes I really don't see how this can be done/enforceable because it doesn't matter if someone uses a 6' leader or a 24" leader (the latter can actually be more effective at flossing in certain conditions.) whether or not the person consitently flosses fish depends on their intent and knowledge of angling. Of the ideas put forward thus far I like ribwarts idea of having an information supplement and 2:40's suggestion of having an angling exam. This could be a one time deal to make sure everyone is on the same page and cannot plead ignorance when they are doing someting they shouldn't be doing.
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-allow RCMP and municipal police to write tickets for angling infractions called in by the public. Right now it feels hopeless to call on weekends, as the CO's are out of the office and there needs to be a fast response if I'm threatening someone who is breaking the law.
They are allowed.
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-Id add a course (angling exam) to be completed and PASSED before you can purchase a fishing license. No different from hunting or driving. You need to take the exam before you go out hunting or driving. This exam will have fish ID, fishing methods, as well as basic ethics and morals.
And who's gonna teach these so called ethics and morals? You? Me? The pope? Allah??!
All that talk about morals and ethics sounds like extremism to me.
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some of your proposals make sense, however, i feel uncomfortable with most of them because they gear towards turning our sport into an elitist activity.
do you really think raising the cost of licenses would increase the funding for fish habitat and hatcheries?
right now recreational fishermen invest 12 million dollars annually towards bc's tourist/ outdoor industry, yet the problems on the rivers have become more pronounce. we need to find a way to change people's attitude towards the problems of snagging, not change the make up of the sport to suit your own personal needs or desires....ie shorten leaders, but should not apply to flyfishers..... make a buffer of 5 ft between fishers, flyfishers need more... sounds like Nicole, you want to create restrictions that don't apply to you. try addressing the problems with flyfishers first then move on to the rest of us because flossing/snagging is not a nonflyfisher epidemic.
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Nina, well we'd have to agree on what I made sure to call BASIC morals and ethics. Without at least some basic standards, morals and ethics to strive for, you're going to have the free-for-all we have today.
These morals would simply include not kicking fish back into the water but releasing at the water's edge and other things along these basic lines.
No intent to slam your feelings on it, Nina, but if trying to share a moral/ethic of not kicking fish is extreme, what do we have left in angling we can work towards?
Maybe if I was more clear on this topic in the first place...my apologies.
But I wonder if the Pope would come out and speak to this issue. He seems to get a little controversy going these days. Might be nice to sit back and let someone else do it for a change. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Blaydruner makes a valid point about the cost of license. I and many others could not afford $200 although I think it's worth it.
His comments to change attitude, while the toughest part, I feel is also right on the money. We should take care not to change or focus on the wrong things when the root of the issue lives on. But I also feel there will be no way to avoid having to implement some of the things like Nicole suggested though too, if not for any reason but to be a band aid and put the brakes on the problem. Changing attitude will take time, regulating can be done much quicker and when you see the state of fishing, we dont have a lot of time.
In other words, it will be a balancing act.
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people don't need to take a test to know that kicking a salmon back in the water is unethical. people like those are plain and simply stupid. fish identification is more along the lines that should be a MUST in attaining a license.
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I think there should be a regulation that prohibits people from dragging fish up on the bank not just a suggestion of proper handling techniques.
In Washinton State it is illegal to remove wild steelhead from the water. Perhaps something similar to this could be apropriate.
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do you really think raising the cost of licenses would increase the funding for fish habitat and hatcheries?
Personally, I would be willing to pay more for my licence if I knew the money was going to a good cause (habitat enhancement, hatchery production where need be, increased enforcement for all user groups) but before I pay more I would like to see 100% of the monies collected from the Salmon Conservation Surcharge Stamp actually go to Salmon Conservation.
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but before I pay more I would like to see 100% of the monies collected from the Salmon Conservation Surcharge Stamp actually go to Salmon Conservation.
Why, where are the funds going right now? I like biffchan's idea too....
In Washinton State it is illegal to remove wild steelhead from the water. Perhaps something similar to this could be apropriate.
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but before I pay more I would like to see 100% of the monies collected from the Salmon Conservation Surcharge Stamp actually go to Salmon Conservation.
Why, where are the funds going right now?
[/quote]
The way it is now, only 1 dollar from each stamp sold goes to salmon conservation and the rest goes to general revenue.
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General revenue? What is general revenue used for, do you know?
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With current level of regulation it is adequate it's the enforcement part that's not.
Becareful what you want to propose into fishing regulations. If outdoor activities becomes such a hassel we might end up pushing those young kids more into clubing, pubs, arcades/computer games.....
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some of your proposals make sense, however, i feel uncomfortable with most of them because they gear towards turning our sport into an elitist activity.
do you really think raising the cost of licenses would increase the funding for fish habitat and hatcheries?
right now recreational fishermen invest 12 million dollars annually towards bc's tourist/ outdoor industry, yet the problems on the rivers have become more pronounce. we need to find a way to change people's attitude towards the problems of snagging, not change the make up of the sport to suit your own personal needs or desires....ie shorten leaders, but should not apply to flyfishers..... make a buffer of 5 ft between fishers, flyfishers need more... sounds like Nicole, you want to create restrictions that don't apply to you. try addressing the problems with flyfishers first then move on to the rest of us because flossing/snagging is not a nonflyfisher epidemic.
All I'm saying with this statement is that restrictions will not work for some user groups, such as flyfishers. So to be inclusive of all groups, maybe the leader length issue cannot be brought into play, as some flyfishers legitimately fish using long leaders sometimes it is required.
Actually, most often I'm using 6-7 feet of leader on my slime line, 10-13 feet off a dry line, and 2-3 feet off a tip so there you go.
And 99.9% of my fish are hooked inside the mouth.
I should also mention that I still use a gear rod for certain conditions, particularly early season steelhead, and I also have a loooong history fishing roe... So I understand and respect all the user groups... Not just the flyfishers.
Cheers,
Nicole
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NO TRANSLATERS FOR THE EXAM, if you can't read what is clearly written in front of you too bad. How do you survive in a country where everyone else speaks/reads english. ??? (Something ICBC should also do for new drivers!!!! How can you read the signs if you can't read english?)
1. I do not see the point, even if you do not speak English you may be a good or ethical or wathever you want to call it fisherman
1. You do not need to live in a country to fish in this country (some big $$ of the fish industry come from tourists I think)
2. There is a big difference between being able to speak and read a language in order to be able to live in a society (I think I do that) and knowing all the specific words that are related to one specific activity (I would not know what are gums, gills, split shots, swivel... If I did not read the internet sites in English)
3. Est ce que tu parles français? je crois que le français est également une langue officielle de ton pays.
4. I really like the possibility ICBC offers for the road test (even if I passed the test in english). According to me it reflects the open minds of the Canadien for other cultures which really contrasts with the racism I can see in France.
Concerning kicking the fish: The first fish I saw caught in BC was a steelhead. The guy dragged it on the gravel, removed his hook, kicked it further away and started laughing with his friend while the poor fish was dying on the shore... Not a good first impression... Please, even if you keep your fish, show some respect for these beautiful creatures.
I do not know what you think about that, but in France when you want to fish for Atlantic salmon you have to pay something like a conservation stamp to fish and if you want to keep a fish, you have to buy a ring and put this ring on the fish as soon as you catch it. In my opinion, it gives more "value" to each individual fish you catch.
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no problem, I understand why you said that now
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in France when you want to fish for Atlantic salmon you have to pay something like a conservation stamp to fish and if you want to keep a fish, you have to buy a ring and put this ring on the fish as soon as you catch it. In my opinion, it gives more "value" to each individual fish you catch.
I really, really like that Idea frenchy...I like it a lot! we should add that idea to the list for sure...
And your points were very well put and delivered with class,
thx,
rib
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do you really think raising the cost of licenses would increase the funding for fish habitat and hatcheries?
The main reason I think the licences should be so expensive is because only die hard fisherman that truly love the sport would be willing to spend so much on a licence to fish, I belive the extra costs would get rid of a lot of the undesirebles that now infest the rivers !!!!
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General revenue? What is general revenue used for, do you know?
It goes to the government coffers and is used for government expenditures (<---anything and everything).
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Hi all,
I know I've already made this point but no one responded.
Why not just make the whole Vedder catch and release for all species - full stop?
I assume from the lack of response no one likes this idea, which is fine but I just don't understand why? Can someone tell me why true sport anglers don't want this when it seems to me it would solve a huge amount of the problems? Perhaps you think it wouldn't - it'd be good to know why?
Some one suggested C&R every other day, so I'm not the only one thinking along these lines.
It just seems like a very simple solution to the problem that is other wise going to be nigh on impossible to solve.
I'd honestly just like to know why more people don't suggest this and what reasons people have against it?
cheers,
Paul.
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do you really think raising the cost of licenses would increase the funding for fish habitat and hatcheries?
The main reason I think the licences should be so expensive is because only die hard fisherman that truly love the sport would be willing to spend so much on a licence to fish, I belive the extra costs would get rid of a lot of the undesirebles that now infest the rivers !!!!
i understand where you're coming from and i understand where Nicole is coming from. what i'm trying to say is lets focus on the root of the problem and attack it from that vantage point. to exclude the poor or the naive is just plain wrong.
how do you become a die hard fisherman, if you can't even afford to get started? ....Golf is a prime example, Tiger Woods mentioned that if it wasn't for his parent's sacrifice, he would have never been able to pick up a golf club.
there's already alot of activities that most kids can't participate in because their parents can't afford to pay the start up cost, ie. hockey, skiing, golf, and so on.... parents nowadays struggle to balance the sheet at the end of the month, why include our sport to that list?
myself, i can afford to pay extra for my license and tags but i'm dead set against it because when i was a boy, my parents couldn't afford to enroll me in some of the sports i wanted to join. fishing became an outlet that help fill the void that my parent's lack of finances couldn't.
That would make me the biggest hypocrite, if i was to support that idea.
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I remember when a license was five bucks for fresh and 0 for salt. I remember more CO's out here than DFO personnel. That was to stop the people who would abuse the resource. There was always people to abuse it. Seen it too many times over too many years.
As for a catch and release fishery, that doesn't always stop abuses from bragging rights fishermen, and you would still get a few people who would use any method to show off a picture of their catch. For whatever purpose, some people want to be known as the big game hunter, probably basic instinct, and to get a few babes while their at it (again basic instinct). ;D Like yours truly. Tom Vu's got nothing on me.
But to be serious about it, you have to enforce rules that are acceptable, that aren't too limiting to people who can't understand what all the fuss is about, or can't afford it ( like charging people to get exercise in our beautiful parks). Educating people to issues, that if you love this resource you protect it, for your own basic fulfillment from hunting down your quarry and gently releasing something threat doesn't need to fill the freezer up. To something that provides peace of mind in beautiful surroundings. Or whatever reason drives you to fish.
Stick up for the resource, and ask where your license monies go.
If people bottom bounce on the Fraser for Sockeye, that run in the millions at times and get their jollies so be it. As long as they don't threaten the resource. And understand that that won't mince on other stocks or streams. You won't find the same numbers of Coho running up the Fraser as they did years back. It was Chinook that were in short supply. And of course Steelhead. The regs have to reflect the reality of the current fish stocks and be applied with caution. In favor of the resource. I still think that nets indiscriminately catch more fish than alot of snaggers.
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why are these fish tied up with rope? :o
Posting these for Chris.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_1.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_1.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_2.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_2.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_3.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_3.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_4.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/061010_4.jpg)
Yes this was the scene at KWB today for those that have not seen it before. ::)
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I would think to prevent them from drifting away.
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could i ask why someone would have tied these fish up with rope and just left them? is it just to get the roe from them later? why do they leave the rope in the fish? i am not familiar with what goes on up at the vedder, so i ask....
thank you.
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my guess is someone intended on taking them home and then scurried away without them when they were confronted, or when they saw a co approaching.
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I don't have a lot of money , but throughout my whole life if I really wanted something I always found a way to get it!! A couple of hundred bucks for a licence would be a steep price but my point is that if you really really wanted to fish you would find a way to raise the money, hell we have a couple of young guys on this site that work hard and save up enough money to buy themselves beautiful center pin reels !!!!! I honestly believe only those who truly truly love the sport of fishing would be willing to spend such money on a licence and it would get rid of a lot of meat hunters!!!!!!!!
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I would think to prevent them from drifting away.
Thats correct as a number of people in this area do this and when they are ready to leave they come and pick them up. Later in the day when I went down to do a cleanup of garbage they were all gone but 1.
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I honestly believe only those who truly truly love the sport of fishing would be willing to spend such money on a licence and it would get rid of a lot of meat hunters!!!!!!!!
Or a lot more poachers....
I dunno about more expensive licenses, everyone should be able to get into and enjoy fishing, regardless of social status.
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I am with Nina on this one. I think that you would get alot more people out there fishing without a liscence. I would love to see how many people on the river actually carry a liscence at the price it is now. I bet there is a number of them out there that probable do not even have the salmon stamp.
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I am with Nina on this one. I think that you would get alot more people out there fishing without a liscence. I would love to see how many people on the river actually carry a liscence at the price it is now. I bet there is a number of them out there that probable do not even have the salmon stamp.
Then it all comes down to enforcement !! you have to realize that there are a high number of people fishing the rivers right now that have a blatant disregard for the rules and if you talk to them they just don't give a Sh!$.... in order for anything to change the rules we already have need to be reinforced.. if they aren't what is the point of creating new rules????? I truly believe that all it would take is a few strong examples made !!! if someone keeps a snagged fish tke away all there gear and fine them $1000 ... if they are using a barbed or treble hook do the same... if someone is a repeat offender take away their car, fine them $5000 if the punishment was scary not that many people would be willing to break the rules any more !!!! It seems almost too simple yet nobody takes action.... we don't need a million new rules we just need to few we have to be inforced
TR
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With regards to the salmon stamp, and the prices of licences...my girlfriend has recently become very interested in the sport and I have been showing her the ropes. To her the licences were way too expensive...and her first reaction was "do I really need one?"...I of course explained to her many of the reasons she needed one, including that she would not be going fishing anywhere with me without one....so she purchased her licence at berry's and called me on her cell to check with me about the stamp. She informed me that the guy there had told her she didn't need one unless she was going to keep a fish...so I had her put the guy on the phone and he reiterated it to me that this was true, "check it online if you like...". I did, it's true. I then told my girlfriend to buy the stamp anyways to support salmon conservation and that we could talk about why we needed to buy the stamp later....
Now she has picked up this river thing like a pro...she's fishing a little centerpin I set up for her, short floating, reading water, staying away from the redds, the chum and the springs as best she can AND picking up on all the ethics and finer aspects of the sport as it should be...in fact I would be proud to fish with anyone that has the respect, determination and skill that she has, anytime. But without my guidance she would surely not have bought a stamp, probably not a licence, and likely would have learned by watching others bottom bounce and never would have known better. Yet she is the kind of person who now, trully loves the sport and I assure you would be willing to spend that 200 bucks on the licence,...but wouldn't have when she started, so I don't think the hugely expensive licence thing is a solution that sits well with me anyways....if licences were that way, we would have lost a really good rod, and my girl never would have realized just how much she loves the sport. It's all she wants to do now, well mostly.....
So, another suggestion I will add to the list of great suggestions we have here is
- make salmon stamp purchase mandatory, retention or no retention (but no exhorbitant licences fees)
- AND for those problem areas such as KWB and below lickman road, these might be good candidate areas to put together some habitat restoration measures...Ie: permanently place several or many logs in these trouble spots to discourage the snag fest that is down there. Such measures will also provide refuge for salmon fry, not to mention returning adults....giving them a break, they need it.
thx,
rib
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This sounds like a great idea.
No one likes fines and sometimes hitting people in the pocketbook is the only way to make them think.
It somewhat works with speeders....
I am with Nina on this one. I think that you would get alot more people out there fishing without a liscence. I would love to see how many people on the river actually carry a liscence at the price it is now. I bet there is a number of them out there that probable do not even have the salmon stamp.
Then it all comes down to enforcement !! you have to realize that there are a high number of people fishing the rivers right now that have a blatant disregard for the rules and if you talk to them they just don't give a Sh!$.... in order for anything to change the rules we already have need to be reinforced.. if they aren't what is the point of creating new rules????? I truly believe that all it would take is a few strong examples made !!! if someone keeps a snagged fish tke away all there gear and fine them $1000 ... if they are using a barbed or treble hook do the same... if someone is a repeat offender take away their car, fine them $5000 if the punishment was scary not that many people would be willing to break the rules any more !!!! It seems almost too simple yet nobody takes action.... we don't need a million new rules we just need to few we have to be inforced
TR
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over hanging shrubs like blackberry bushes along the canal and some strategically placed ivies might act as a deterant ::)
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It seems as though the gas prices have not slowed down anglers at all... makes me think the money thing is not the issue. Or maye a good portion of the Vedder anglers are richer than we are led to believe, or they live locally.
Cheers,
Nicole
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Fining people could work !! it could be somehow hooked together with ICBC, if you don't pay the fine you can't reinsure you're car or renew you're licence.. I honestly believe that thgis would work if it was enforced.. and the fines taken in would more than pay for the extra enforcement
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Fining people could work !! it could be somehow hooked together with ICBC, if you don't pay the fine you can't reinsure you're car or renew you're licence.. I honestly believe that thgis would work if it was enforced.. and the fines taken in would more than pay for the extra enforcement
fining for offences are fine, but the generating of funds isn't the problem, as much as how they allocate them.
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It seems as though the gas prices have not slowed down anglers at all... makes me think the money thing is not the issue. Or maye a good portion of the Vedder anglers are richer than we are led to believe, or they live locally.
Cheers,
Nicole
its about the choices we make in life. i don't smoke and i don't drink. most of my spare time revolves around fishing or golf. so obviously, i can afford to invest any free income towards the two.
my concern isn't for the seasoned fishers who are established in life, as much as younger folks who's parents may not have the means to support them if the price of the licenses become out of reach.
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its about the choices we make in life. i don't smoke and i don't drink. most of my spare time revolves around fishing or golf.
very nice bladerunner....I went this non smoking, non drinking route some time ago also....best decision I ever made...Golf huh? Where do you play? All I ever do besides working on my degree and sitting on this website is golf or fish...I hope I live forever! ;)
rib
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It seems as though the gas prices have not slowed down anglers at all... makes me think the money thing is not the issue. Or maye a good portion of the Vedder anglers are richer than we are led to believe, or they live locally.
Cheers,
Nicole
I think there's a bit of truth here. With high gas prices, people are less willing to recreate too far out of town so they look closer to home to spend their holidays and weekends.
Just another aspect?
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I wonder if a demographic has been done on lower mainland anglers...might help us some if we could get a hold of that data...maybe dfo has something useful? Might give us the "mean" charcteristics of fishermen on our local rivers.
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It seems as though the gas prices have not slowed down anglers at all... makes me think the money thing is not the issue. Or maye a good portion of the Vedder anglers are richer than we are led to believe, or they live locally.
Cheers,
Nicole
Maybe higher gas prices are partially to blame. It creates the mentality, 'I spend a lot of money to get out here so I'd better be leaving with a fish'.
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wow lots of new activity on this issue, good to see everyone, I'm glad I did some whining
maybe next time it will happen before everyones freezer is full.
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wow lots of new activity on this issue, good to see everyone, I'm glad I did some whining
maybe next time it will happen before everyones freezer is full.
Don't forget to check some of the other local web pages ;D, good stuff there also. Good to see a number of members on all of them providing good suggestions as well.
Looks like the local SFAC is getting involved now, starting with their meeting this coming week. ;D ;D Keep the suggestions coming, we may finally be getting the attention to this matter that it rightly deserves. ;D
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wow lots of new activity on this issue, good to see everyone, I'm glad I did some whining
maybe next time it will happen before everyones freezer is full.
As I don't fish the sockeye fishery, and thus my freezer is empty, you might allow me some of those sockeye in your freezer LeadBelly, just to aleviate the load in your freezer of course...just think of the space you'll have for next years catch...just teasing ;)
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My freez has nothing in it but a little turkey, some fresh dog roe and a few sockeye steaks from a fish i bought from the local.
Still its good to see a few more anti snaggers speak up even if its two months late again :D
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ok....ummmm :-\ :-\ :-\ I'll take the turkey then!!!! You keep the roe....Thanks LB! ;)
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Just got back from doing a garbage cleanup of a bar in the Vedder Canal area. Completed it around 7 and saw a couple of FOC officers checking a group of anglers just leaving the river. So I stopped and recognized one of the officers I have known for a while. In talking to him they had a blitz on today on the river with some other teams out as well. Would be targetting anyone fishing after hours as well this evening.
He tells me they have been working the system pretty heavily the last couple of weeks. One of the officers has been reading this web page the last while and I am sure they are interested in the comments being posted here. ;D
The officier I know is interested in attending the November meeting so I am starting to think we may be getting somewhere on this file as we are starting to get things rolling right along. ;D ;D
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That sure is good news. Last year the DFO came up the canal in their Zodiac and my friend and I fishing the shore were the only ones to stick around. This was below the #1 hgwy bridge. I guess a few of these people didn't even have licenses to go with their treble hooks.
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It's great to hear of increased presence on the river. It's been a while since I've seen any co's....having said that I guess sometimes they are out there but not making themselves visible so as to catch people in the act...but it's good to hear they were making themselves obvious today!!
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This was discussed in depth at the SFAC meeting tonight, a 7 member committee was struck to try and deal with this issue, another meeting to attend. ;D This makes two groups now working on ideas to try and improve the present situations.
A lot of disgust expressed by many with the current situation on the Chilliwack Vedder.
FOC and the CO have been out in force the last while with numerous tickets handed out. Undercover work also. As well checking at the border crossings have lead to some tickets issued.
They are out there you may not just see them hiding in the bushes. ;D ;D
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Great news chris
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Great Chris glad to hear, but the they arent where i am cause they would have sore hands writing tickets, I know they cant be in 3 places at once
Very important to phone the FOC report line as all this information is recorded and they may also check it out. The awareness is out there now there is lots of concerns so keep the calls going in. Maybe tell me the spot also so I can catch a coho. ;D ;D ;D Just kidding.
I will get to finally handle a coho today as helping with a fertilazation project on the Chillliwack today. ;D ;D
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Show people how to short float, watch as they catch a few fish, and then you have converts (in the ideal world). Show them what kind of water to look for when fishing cohos, springs etc and stay away from the gong shows.
If you truly mean what you say...(write) Post some pictures of ideal Coho water and pictures of water to stay away from.
Send these people into good fish holding water with the knowlege of short floating and let nature take its course.
CJ.
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it seems that they are only worried about people with out licenses, what about snaggers and un sportmanship counduct ???
They work within the law.
Snagging is breaking the law.
Unsportsman like conduct? What are you talking about?
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Show people how to short float, watch as they catch a few fish, and then you have converts (in the ideal world). Show them what kind of water to look for when fishing cohos, springs etc and stay away from the gong shows.
If you truly mean what you say...(write) Post some pictures of ideal Coho water and pictures of water to stay away from.
Send these people into good fish holding water with the knowlege of short floating and let nature take its course.
CJ.
Hmmm, my selfish side wants to keep the coho friendly water a secret though... It seems as though people are bypassing it in exchange for the more obvious pools with the springs splashing all over...
I walked by numerous spring ripping sites yesterday, those guys are not what I'm after, and I'm happy to see concentrations of anglers all crowding around those spots, leaving the coho for me... I hooked fish in areas yesterday were absent of any anglers and I was able to fish a ton of good flywater... It was awesome...
Cheers,
Nicole
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This was discussed in depth at the SFAC meeting tonight, a 7 member committee was struck to try and deal with this issue, another meeting to attend. ;D This makes two groups now working on ideas to try and improve the present situations.
A lot of disgust expressed by many with the current situation on the Chilliwack Vedder.
FOC and the CO have been out in force the last while with numerous tickets handed out. Undercover work also. As well checking at the border crossings have lead to some tickets issued.
They are out there you may not just see them hiding in the bushes. ;D ;D
First meeting held today, a two hour meeting. Most everyone in attendance agreed changes have to be made. A number of suggestions were listed, many that were posted on this thread. Thanks to Buck for getting it going a while back. Most at the meeting had read your posts and they thank you for them.
Another meeting is to be held early Dec. to finish the report and forward on the recommendations.
The first SFAC sub committee meeting goes in a couple of weeks. Many thought no changes would happen but I believe we will see some that will move sports angling back to what it should be in my mind anyway. For those interested stay tunned.
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We also need to understand that hatchery programs the funding comes from fishing license. If we change the regulation how will the current funding level be effected? Would this actually be better? One question I do wonder is how many people out there fishing actually bought a fishing license w/ salmon stamp?
;D I am new to this salmon fishing and I bought my licence and my stamp - even though I catch & release, Just thought for the extra few bucks it would be worth the remote possibility of taking something 'legal' home....
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This was discussed in depth at the SFAC meeting tonight, a 7 member committee was struck to try and deal with this issue, another meeting to attend. ;D This makes two groups now working on ideas to try and improve the present situations.
A lot of disgust expressed by many with the current situation on the Chilliwack Vedder.
FOC and the CO have been out in force the last while with numerous tickets handed out. Undercover work also. As well checking at the border crossings have lead to some tickets issued.
They are out there you may not just see them hiding in the bushes. ;D ;D
First meeting held today, a two hour meeting. Most everyone in attendance agreed changes have to be made. A number of suggestions were listed, many that were posted on this thread. Thanks to Buck for getting it going a while back. Most at the meeting had read your posts and they thank you for them.
Another meeting is to be held early Dec. to finish the report and forward on the recommendations.
The first SFAC sub committee meeting goes in a couple of weeks. Many thought no changes would happen but I believe we will see some that will move sports angling back to what it should be in my mind anyway. For those interested stay tunned.
A small update on this topic as I try and like to keep those interested in the loop the best I can.The first SFAC sub committee meeting was held last night, as it was the first meeting I donot have too much that I can report. The chairman of this committee is on this forum so I will allow him the courtesy to post some info if he wishes although in all fairness to him not too much too report as yet. It looks like this committee will have many meetings to follow. As I have mentioned before all posts on this thread have been read by some committee members so all your thoughts and time spent typing them have been appreciated. Thanks to everyone of you on this forum and others who have contributed on both sides of the debate.
I can say agreement was made to book a booth at the Sportsman show in March at Abbotsford where further input can made by anglers as well. It will be a joint effort of this sub committee, The BC Federation of Drift Fishers, FVSS and the Chilliwack Fish and Game Protective Association. I personally am pleased this is going to happen
I believe a questionnaire will be developed at the next meeting in January to be provided at the show for those interested to fill out and add comments as well.
On the other front The Chilliwack River Watershed Strategy dealing with angler ethics on the Chilliwack Vedder will hold their second meeting this week. It is progressing along well I think and it will be the up to the chair to release the committee's recommendations. I of course will try to get these recommendations to this forum when I get the okay from the chair and committee to do so.
Stay tunned, it looks like a fairly long process.
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A long, but very encouraging process so far.
I feel that something good will come of it to help angling and keep it strong and alive.
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thanks for the update, man i don't know how you can keep up with so many different groups and meetings etc.
The booth a the sportsmans show sounds similar the the one the had a few year ago by Fisheries i think, they had a chalk board you could write comments on about different issues like the problems on the Fraser etc.
Wow I made Old Timer Status :D
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thanks for the update, man i don't know how you can keep up with so many different groups and meetings etc.
The booth a the sportsmans show sounds similar the the one the had a few year ago by Fisheries i think, they had a chalk board you could write comments on about different issues like the problems on the Fraser etc.
Wow I made Old Timer Status :D
Yes Linda talked about the board at the meeting on Thursday. I will ask to see what was written as the committee should see it too. Thanks Ray for the note about it, I had forgotton about it already. ???
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thanks for the update, man i don't know how you can keep up with so many different groups and meetings etc.
The booth a the sportsmans show sounds similar the the one the had a few year ago by Fisheries i think, they had a chalk board you could write comments on about different issues like the problems on the Fraser etc.
Wow I made Old Timer Status :D
Yes Linda talked about the board at the meeting on Thursday. I will ask to see what was written as the committee should see it too. Thanks Ray for the note about it, I had forgotton about it already. ???
You should Chris as I remember a lot of anglers that are not on the web or belong to a club wrote comments.
However you may not like the results.
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thanks for the update, man i don't know how you can keep up with so many different groups and meetings etc.
The booth a the sportsmans show sounds similar the the one the had a few year ago by Fisheries i think, they had a chalk board you could write comments on about different issues like the problems on the Fraser etc.
Wow I made Old Timer Status :D
Yes Linda talked about the board at the meeting on Thursday. I will ask to see what was written as the committee should see it too. Thanks Ray for the note about it, I had forgotton about it already. ???
You should Chris as I remember a lot of anglers that are not on the web or belong to a club wrote comments.
However you may not like the results.
Does not bother me at all, while everyone has the opportunity to voice their opinion.
So far comments and idea's to correct this problem coming from the two groups that have had two meetings so far with another on tap tomorrow are very encouraging, to me anyway.
When all the work is done and submitted it will be up to those that will make the final decision on regulations changes be it FOC, MOE, SFAB or a combination of all three. I think all would agree that is beyond the scope of these committees. I believe the recommendation that come from a group of very knowledgeable anglers and people on both side of the debate will be too hard to just discard into the round filing cabinet. One can ask no more of many that are giving of their free time at personal cost of time and money to do this.
Personally I find when one is over 60 you tend to look at life a little differently and this topic is pretty minor in the whole scheme of things that we all go through during our life span and what a great life it is. ;D ;D ;D
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You should Chris as I remember a lot of anglers that are not on the web or belong to a club wrote comments.
However you may not like the results.
Any and all comments are most welcome regardless of the 'results'. They are necessary to involve as many people as possible in this group oriented project.
Out of curiosity, where are these comments? If you're aware of them and obtained permission, Im sure you could forward the messages from those who dont belong to clubs or websites.
If you want to use these 'comments' to make a point, you should have them handy to show.
Just my thoughts.
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The consensus was it is not broken , so do not fix it.
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The consensus was it is not broken , so do not fix it.
Unfortunately, as consensus varies on this issue, only the ones submitted or avaliable for others to see can be used or applied.
I say this only out of concern for the apparent anglers who's voices are currently what can only be taken as conjecture at this time.
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Meeting went very well today I thought. Some great idea's are surfacing from some very knowledgable people on this subject.
A number of us, 6 I believe also completed a fairly lonng analysis table, mine took a few hours to complete and I was a bit late getting it submitted. This analysis is of the ideas related to making headway to a solution of this subject. I saw one analysis submitted table from a member of this board and it was just excellent work, far better than what I could do.
Next meeting in January and we hope one more meeting after that should complete this committees work then ready for submission.
As I stated before I plan to get it posted on this web site for that will be interested in reading it, I am sure it will be an excellent report of recommendations..