Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on June 23, 2006, 04:44:54 PM
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FN0460-Sockeye: Region 2 - Fraser River Non-tidal Waters - Closure
Spawning escapement targets are developed each annually for each of the four Fraser River sockeye stock aggregates. For 2006, the Early Stuart sockeye are forecast to return at numbers insufficient to meet the proposed escapement target. Management actions are being undertaken in all fisheries and for all sectors to minimize impacts on these stocks. The Early Stuart sockeye stock aggregate is forecast to begin entering the Fraser River during the last week of June.
Effective 00:01 hours June 26, the non-tidal waters of the Fraser River from the CPR Bridge at Mission, BC upstream to the Highway No. 1 Bridge at Hope, BC are closed to fishing for sockeye.
During this critical migration timing for Early Stuart sockeye, the recreational community will be required to fish selectively for chinook. The first principle of selective harvest is to avoid catching non-targeted stocks. This means that anglers are requested to use angling methods that do not catch sockeye.
The second principle of selective harvest is to release sockeye in the manner which causes the least harm. Information on catch and release tips can be found here (http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/recfish/KeyPoints/releasetips_e.htm).
Notes:
Barbless hooks are required when fishing for salmon in tidal and non-tidal waters of British Columbia. This includes all species of fish in the Fraser River.
The term "hatchery marked" means a fish that has a healed scar in place of the adipose fin.
Sport anglers are encouraged to participate in the voluntary Salmon Sport Head Recovery program by labelling and submitting heads from adipose fin-clipped chinook and coho salmon. Recovery of coded-wire tags provides critical information for coast-wide stock assessment. Contact the Salmon Sport Head Recovery Program at (866) 483-9994 for further information.
Did you witness suspicious fishing activity or a violation? If so, please call the Fisheries and Ocean Canada 24-hour toll free Observe, Record, Report line at (800) 465-4336.
For the 24 hour recorded opening and closure line, call toll free at (866) 431-FISH.
Fisheries & Oceans Operations Center - FN0460
Sent June 23, 2006 at 1537
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/xnet/content/fns/index.cfm?pg=view_notice&lang=en&DOC_ID=89684&ID=recreational
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With this, we can see that the season if coming up on us fast!! Yippie!! The sockeye can kiss my..... Bring on the Chinook!! ;D ;D
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Interesting change in language this year.
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C'mon there are anglers out there who's only method of catching any kind of salmon has been the method used to catch sockeye so why pussyfoot around it spell out exactly what you mean by selective measures. I know it's a hot subject but whatever , some things have to be said, and one of them is if the first nations see people out bottom bouncing for salmon when theyhavew been asked to volentarely use selective measures then they will net fish, a show of good faith has to be made on all sides. Why does the DFO ask for selective measures when they knoiw their are irresponsible sports anglers out ther thatr will be bbing with 20 ft, leaders and justr agrivating an already volatile situation when they could just legislate it with a leader length restriction. Sockeye are the most fragile of the Pacific salmon and should not be caught and released, sure it might look good when you release it at peg leg but the that fish only started out with a 5percent energy reserve and it's a long way to the Stewart River.
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Before someone else mentions it, just cause I can't spell don't mean I can't have a valid opinion on fishing. ;D
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Hey nosey, how about fly-fishing with an overly weighted hook? Could one do that or is that a non-selective technique? I've seen this done on many rivers with great success. I think the whole river should be shut down during this critical time. There is no need to fish by any method and risk harassing these precious stocks.
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Yes I've seen people flossing with fly rods too, shutting the river right down for everyone during conservation sensitive times is not an unreasonable option trying to impose ethics on a group of people makes all sports anglers look bad when a small percentage choose to ignore it. Ethics cannot be left up to each persons individual conscience, you either got them or you don't.
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Yes I've seen people flossing with fly rods too, shutting the river right down for everyone during conservation sensitive times is not an unreasonable option trying to impose ethics on a group of people makes all sports anglers look bad when a small percentage choose to ignore it. Ethics cannot be left up to each persons individual conscience, you either got them or you don't.
Exactly, my feeling exactly Nosey!!
But I still think that perhaps DFO should ban flossing while the Stuarts are in the river. Then, when there is going to be an opening for sokeye, let the flossers go out and do what they do!! :)
As for Bar-fishing, it is my opinion that this is a selective way of fishing. Sure people will get the odd Sockeye this way, but it is a heck of a lot better then the other option available!! Nothing is 100% effective when it comes to not catching a certain type of fish. Might as well go with the best option!! ;)
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Yes I've seen people flossing with fly rods too, shutting the river right down for everyone during conservation sensitive times is not an unreasonable option trying to impose ethics on a group of people makes all sports anglers look bad when a small percentage choose to ignore it. Ethics cannot be left up to each persons individual conscience, you either got them or you don't.
Well said
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The natives will catch the early sock's in their nets anyways :-\
Mike <")))))><
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Done right, fly flossing is deadly and you look cool as well. Longest flossing line you can imagine. I like a large "fly" on the end. Colour don't matter.
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Lets not clowdy the issue by diverting attention to the natives/netting...we can only be responsible for ourselves.
It is true though that is we expect the natives not to fish out side of openings then we need to do our part and respect DFO's "request"...we can't have higher expectations of the FN than we do for ourselves!
until dfo makes a totally clear statement tho, there is going to be division what does this mean any how:
required to fish selectively for chinook.....This means that anglers are requested to use angling methods that do not catch sockeye.
Mixed message if you ask me...although I know the intention.
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wondering if there was a FN opening today? while in Richmond I noticed a small boat drifting a net, didnt look like they pulled in much in the two drifts I saw them make.
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Nosey, compliance in the sportfishing community is generally very high and regional staff of DFO always wish to work with this group instead of against it. Protection of a threatened fish stock is everyone's business, and DFO wishes to see the sportfishing community self-regulating itself as fishery officers cannot be at everyone at all time. Implementing a leader length restriction seems to be an easy solution, but it may lead to many enforcement problems. It is pointless to introduce another rule to regulate, while the existing ones are not heavily enforced already. Those who write up the regulations do not wish to complicate a set of rules that is already hard to interpret for some.
The message of this notice is simple: While enjoying the Fraser River chinook salmon fishery, avoid catching sockeye salmon by any means. If there are too many Early Stewart sockeyes being by-caught then the chinook salmon fishery maybe closed during the migration of Early Stewart sockeyes.
FishFreak is right regarding no fishing methods are 100% selective. However I think in this case they are requesting anglers to employ a fishing method that can reduce the number of by-catches of sockeye salmon tremendously, ie. barfishing. They are not looking for 0% mortality of Early Stewarts by sportfishermen, but low interception by sportfishermen.
Of course some will still be out and disregard this notice by fishing with whatever methods they feel like, there will always be a small percentage that ruins it for the rest of us. The best you can do is to follow the request and enjoy the fishery.
The natives will catch the early sock's in their nets anyways :-\
The Fraser River First Nations are also being told to use whatever means to avoid by-catches of sockeye during this time of the year, but they will also have some members who will disregard the request. It isn't necessary to generalize the entire user group as one bad entity.
We could sit here and continue bickering about which methods or which group of anglers do more bad than others every year, nothing constructive would derive from it. If you truly feel that the regulations are not up to your standard, then my suggestion would be to join a local active fishing organization such as the Fraser Valley Salmon Society and deliver your concerns to the representatives. Local groups have representations at the Sportfishing Advisory Committees, where the angling public consults with DFO on current issues and regulation changes.
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wondering if there was a FN opening today? while in Richmond I noticed a small boat drifting a net, didnt look like they pulled in much in the two drifts I saw them make.
Musqueam and Tsawwassen First Nations have a 48 hour opening until noon today.
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There are a lot of sports anglers that will not comply with this request, I'm primarily a bar fisherman, float fisher so it won't effect me whatsoever, but thew last time they made this same request there were still a lot of people out bottom bouncing. If this is the case this year the other user groups are going to be pissed off. It's easy to see if someone's bbing from a mile away so it just shows up all the more. I realize the COs can't be everywhere but I would welcome just seeing the odd one, I mean a leader restriction would be a heck of a lot easier to enforce than barbless hooks cause you can see how long a guys leader is from half a mile away. I'm glad you think there will be a high level of compliance, but even a low level of non compliance will be totally obvious to anyone wanting to point there finger at sports anglers as abusers of the resource, most of the regs cannot be checked by just glancing at a guys gear so people would be very wary of using a long leader if there was an actual restriction on it whereas if you give a lot of people an option they will abuse it. I spend a lot of time on the river and I'm afraid I just don't have the same amount of faith in human nature as you do. Either that or one of us has our head slightly up our butt. I'd like to take a boat ride down past all the bottom bouncing bars next weekend and see if they're all covered with bar fishermen happily sitting in their lawn chairs sipping their favorite beverage, it would be a fine sight to behold but I don't think it's going to happen. I hope I'm wrong ;)
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What is all this noise about? Ther is no fish in the river as this has been so far the worst season in the last 8 years >:( No point burning that expensive gas unless you need a gulp of fresh Fraser air. I don't expect this sockeye season to be better than the last one either. All this indicates the total salmon numbers ARE COMING DOWN :'(
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All this indicates the total salmon numbers ARE COMING DOWN :'(
What exactly indicates this??? Other than the record brood year escapement for this year's run?
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Spring fishing has been a little slower than last year but nowhere as bad as it was in the early 1970's when all user groups were made to comply with severe restrictions to save endangered runs, seems to me there wasn't nearly the amount of bitching back then as there is now. I've gotten 2 springs so far this year, one of the guys I fish with has landed 4 and I've heard of a few people with multiple fish days, none flossed. There are fish out there if you spend the time.
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One point, you guys seem to have missed ,it is very easy to avoid the sockeye when fishing for springs at most bars. Sockeye tend to move close to shore while springs are usually further out.
To avoid the sockeye simply don't drift in close to shore, stay out where the springs are and then retrieve before coming to shore. I've used thistechnique for years and it works just fine. I may hook 1 or 2 sockeye at most during the entire spring season, these get realsed while still in the water. No problem.
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No one really responded to the point I made a few posts back..as long as DFO doesnt take a DEFINITIVE position, people will floss.
Look at what their release says: "...required to fish selectively for chinook.....This means that anglers are requested to use angling methods that do not catch sockeye".
Required and request can't be used in the same paragraph if anyone is to take them seriously and how about posting fines if people choose not to listen to their "request", that just it, flossers know its all bark and no bite.
And please "fishman" be a little more responsible than to make posts like your last one. While fishing sockeye openings, my hook has "encountered": sockeye, chum, pink, spring, sturgeon, suckers...pretty much anything that swims can be hooked by a flosser. While I acknowledge what you say about travel lains, I don't think you and all the other flossers can say with any degree of certainty that you wont hook a sockeye while flossing springs so don't put that idea in peoples heads.
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As of 9:10 this morning nobody had notified Cheyenne Sports in Hope of this request if the DFO wants compliance with this request they should post this notice every place fishermen congregate. I counted 15 anglers out BBing between the scales bar, Croft Is. and across from Floods about usual for this time of year. It looks like the compliance rate is fairly low so far. None of the bar fishermen i spoke to had heard of this request although it was faily welcomed, maybe it would be a good idea for the Fisheries to kinda get the word out.
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Selective methods to some will mean using red wool for Springs and Chartreuse or green for Sockeye. Also if you need to use a 4oz ball then you're targeting Springs in the faster/deeper water.
DFO needs to either take a firm stand and make it regulation or get off the issue.
It sickens me that FN get netting openings and DFO request that anglers use selective methods. It's crap and I'm sick of hearing about it.
Make the regulations or drop the issue - no more of this suggestive propaganda where people pick sides and dig their heels in fighting for a cause that may make sense or not. Personnally I think the big picture plan is to cause this turmoil umungst the recreational anglers and DFO will then step in and say: there you go boys - you can't seem to get it together so here's how it's going to be. No recreational fishing for you until we open Sockeye but only until the Coho come in then it's closed again. Natives and Licenced Guides you can fish because you can follow the rules.
Or I could be completely wrong. Hopefully. By the way I'm not trying to start a fight - just my thoughts.
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It's sure a lot easier and cheaper to patrol a river when it's closed. It's easy to close if you deliberately confuse the anglers by not informing them of voluntary restrictions, looks like a conspiracy to me. >:( ???
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You can catch sockeye barfishing. Ask Troutslayer or Chris.
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Selective methods to some will mean using red wool for Springs and Chartreuse or green for Sockeye. Also if you need to use a 4oz ball then you're targeting Springs in the faster/deeper water.
DFO needs to either take a firm stand and make it regulation or get off the issue.
It sickens me that FN get netting openings and DFO request that anglers use selective methods. It's crap and I'm sick of hearing about it.
Make the regulations or drop the issue - no more of this suggestive propaganda where people pick sides and dig their heels in fighting for a cause that may make sense or not. Personnally I think the big picture plan is to cause this turmoil umungst the recreational anglers and DFO will then step in and say: there you go boys - you can't seem to get it together so here's how it's going to be. No recreational fishing for you until we open Sockeye but only until the Coho come in then it's closed again. Natives and Licenced Guides you can fish because you can follow the rules.
Or I could be completely wrong. Hopefully. By the way I'm not trying to start a fight - just my thoughts.
I agree with you 100% .. it is unthinkable that they would on one hand ask sportsfishermen to use selective methods and then turn around and allow a Native opening.. what do you think is going to be caught in those nets???????? you think they will actually use nets with larger openings so that Sockeye can swim through while the Springs get caught?? I don't think so.... and do you think a Sockeye caught in a net has any chance of making it up river ????? if a sockeye is flossed with a barbless hook it will be released and still have a chance of making it up stream.. until they close the river 100% to fishing and that means to everyone I will never take them seriously !!!!!!!!!
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Selective methods to some will mean using red wool for Springs and Chartreuse or green for Sockeye. Also if you need to use a 4oz ball then you're targeting Springs in the faster/deeper water.
DFO needs to either take a firm stand and make it regulation or get off the issue.
It sickens me that FN get netting openings and DFO request that anglers use selective methods. It's crap and I'm sick of hearing about it.
Well said. Present regulations are too wishy washy. Wide open to interpretation as to what is selective fishery ?
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you think they will actually use nets with larger openings so that Sockeye can swim through while the Springs get caught?? I don't think so.... and do you think a Sockeye caught in a net has any chance of making it up river ?????
Rick, the opening diameter of (set and drift) nets used in the chinook openings are indeed larger than the ones used during the sockeye openings. I don't have and can't recall the exact numbers but they are stored in the computer back on my desk, which I will have access to tomorrow when I arrive home. :)
DFO is required to provide openings for First Nations, the law says so. The main concern isn't how many more fish they harvest than the sportfishing sector. They are entitled to. This isn't what I agree or disagree, this is just the way is unless the rules are changed. The concerns that we should strongly express is the absence of transparency between DFO, the sportfishing sector and First Nations. On one hand, First Nations see the increasing interest in the sportfishing sector on the Fraser River as a threat to their way of life. On the other hand, sportfishermen do not agree with the way harvested fish are being recorded in the First Nations' fisheries. All groups recognize these issues, and talks have been set up since last year. Progress is small, but at least there is some.
Nosey, if you are concerned about these notices not being delivered to the bulk of the users efficiently, then I highly recommend you to contact the regional staff of DFO and emphasize the importance of getting these notices out immediately after the announcement. Expressing your opinion on a discussion forum such as this is useful to other readers, but changes will not happen unless you deliver the message to the right people.
Back to an earlier post regarding compliance. How is compliance measured? Based on the number of anglers who are not participating in bar fishing? Based on the percentage of anglers on the Fraser River who are not participating in bar fishing? Based on the number of sockeye salmon that are caught and released per day? According to DFO, high compliance was actually reported last year. How this was measured, I do not know. I suspect it was the fact that not many sockeye salmon were reported by-caught during the month of May and June (there were not that many to begin with, of course by-catch was low) which was an indication of high compliance. If by-catch was high/compliance was low, the river would have been closed until Early Stewarts escapement was reached as suggested in a similar notice last year. Seeing a row of anglers bottom bouncing with long leaders at Grassy Bar may give people the impression that compliance is low, but if we are basing the number of sockeye salmon being hauled out and tossed back in this group and the percentage of this group out of all Fraser River anglers on that day then measurement of compliance changes.
And no, I am not implying those who choose to fish with that particular method is correct or not. ;) I am simply suggesting that there is most likely a cut-off number on sockeye salmon by-catch. If the number reaches that cut-off point, then it suggests anglers are not complying to the request, which may lead to a closure to reduce mortality caused by catch and release.
<My apology for the run-on sentences. It's 1am here and I just finished packing for my flight tomorrow>
You can catch sockeye barfishing. Ask Troutslayer or Chris.
I caught one too. ;)
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/fishing/DSCF0499.thumb.jpg) (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/fishing/DSCF0499.jpg)
But don't ask me, according to many rumours on the internet, I am apparently the biggest flosser on this planet. ;D
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Thanx Rodney, do you happen to have the email address of the right DFO office to access in this instance, I know fisheries updates are usually faxed to the usual outlets but I think it would be good to have a few nailed up along the river too.
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Selective methods to some will mean using red wool for Springs and Chartreuse or green for Sockeye. Also if you need to use a 4oz ball then you're targeting Springs in the faster/deeper water.
DFO needs to either take a firm stand and make it regulation or get off the issue.
It sickens me that FN get netting openings and DFO request that anglers use selective methods. It's crap and I'm sick of hearing about it.
Make the regulations or drop the issue - no more of this suggestive propaganda where people pick sides and dig their heels in fighting for a cause that may make sense or not. Personnally I think the big picture plan is to cause this turmoil umungst the recreational anglers and DFO will then step in and say: there you go boys - you can't seem to get it together so here's how it's going to be. No recreational fishing for you until we open Sockeye but only until the Coho come in then it's closed again. Natives and Licenced Guides you can fish because you can follow the rules.
Or I could be completely wrong. Hopefully. By the way I'm not trying to start a fight - just my thoughts.
I agree with you 100% .. it is unthinkable that they would on one hand ask sportsfishermen to use selective methods and then turn around and allow a Native opening.. what do you think is going to be caught in those nets???????? you think they will actually use nets with larger openings so that Sockeye can swim through while the Springs get caught?? I don't think so.... and do you think a Sockeye caught in a net has any chance of making it up river ????? if a sockeye is flossed with a barbless hook it will be released and still have a chance of making it up stream.. until they close the river 100% to fishing and that means to everyone I will never take them seriously !!!!!!!!!
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I am with Thickrick and Fishman all the way. DFO's first mandate is conservation. If they deem the fish stock in danger, then all user groups should stop fishing, including FN. FN does not have priority over conservation concern. If they allow FN to massively take springs and sockeyes, then impose this selective method clause on us that practically present insignficant impact to fish stock, then I deem them playing their old game on us sporties - you guys can be horsed around anyway them guys at DFO see fit, but they go overboard to appease FN. I don't buy this kind of racist crap from DFO, period. Good spring BBers can avoid sockeyes easily. I had very few sockeye hookups when targeting spring. Use heavy beaties and fish the deepest & strongest flowing water and retrieve early, and you will not catch sockeyes.
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Do you think only good spring bottom bouncers are gonna be out there, give me a break, Yesterday there were no FN nets out up this way but lots of bottom bouncers In places that catch sockeye using methods that catch sockeye maybe there should be some sort of test to see who's a good spring bottom bouncer and who isn't ;D, or just put a leader restriction on and just about totally eliminate any bycatch. We can't do anything about what the DFO and the the natives do between themselves but we can clean up our act as sportfishers.
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or just put a leader restriction on and just about totally eliminate any bycatch.
How? last year sockeye were caught on bar rigs very often. Not even barfishing is selective. If Stuart sockeye need to be protected like others have mentioned. Close the river to fishing for all groups. Until the time Stuart sockeye pass by.
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I've bar fished 38 years and probably only caught 6 or 7 sockeye in that time, I keep my leader down to about 12 inches when barfishing and it helps. If you are bbing with a long leader you are definitely not doing anything to avoid the sockeye. Whatever, if they have to close the river so be it, at least that way the other user groups won't use us as an excuse to fish for the Stuarts. If we were restricted to a short leader we could avoid the large majority of the sockeye while still being able to angle for springs I still can't see the problem with implementing such a restriction, last week in Hope the DFO had three boats and nine officers out practicing their operational skills, had they launched one boat in Hope one at Carey road and one at Island 22 they could have checked every recreational angler on the river for leader length and still be back at Tim's for afternoon coffee.
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you think they will actually use nets with larger openings so that Sockeye can swim through while the Springs get caught?? I don't think so.... and do you think a Sockeye caught in a net has any chance of making it up river ?????
DFO is required to provide openings for First Nations, the law says so. The main concern isn't how many more fish they harvest than the sportfishing sector. They are entitled to. This isn't what I agree or disagree, this is just the way is unless the rules are changed. The concerns that we should strongly express is the absence of transparency between DFO, the sportfishing sector and First Nations. On one hand, First Nations see the increasing interest in the sportfishing sector on the Fraser River as a threat to their way of life. On the other hand, sportfishermen do not agree with the way harvested fish are being recorded in the First Nations' fisheries. All groups recognize these issues, and talks have been set up since last year. Progress is small, but at least there is some.
Until that law changes I don't think there are too many sportfishermen that are going to take the DFO serious.. me included.. it is ignorant and it is stupid.. obviously the nets are going to take many more sockeye than the BB's are .... if the Natives are entitled by law to take more fish then that means the law is flawed and needs to be changed!!!!!!!!!!
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Aaaahhh! A flossing thread! Finally! ;D
As long as the regs are not specific, it all comes down to personal choice. If you feel your absence from the Fraser can make a difference, stay home or go somewhere else. Simple.
For those of you who are itching to head out and cast some betties despite the DFO request/requirement, here's a piece of advice. Keep your leader down to three feet, cast far and deep, keep your drift shorter and you probably won't catch a single Stuart - nor a chinook for that matter. :D
Oh, and by all means, avoid green wool! :P
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OK as of yesterday the DFO had still not sent this notice to all the sporting goods stores that people go to to read fisheries notices Cheyenne Sports got theirs yesterday afternoon CHWK Dart and Tackle had not received one yet at 5:00 PM. I phoned DFO starting early inthe morning to see why these notices were not faxed out. I got one person that hadn't heard of it first, to her credit she read it and got back to me with three phone numbers deeper in the organisation, the next two people I phoned were not in the office and the last one I phoned had read the notice, didn't know why it wasn't published better, and actually got hold of the person in charge, henceforth Cheyenne Sports got a copy. In the time I took phoning these people I could have gotten a phone directory and faxed a copy to every sporting goods store in BC, after I come in from fishing today I will phone back to inform them that they are still missing some outlets.
The DFO's handling and publishing and the language they used Has all been done in a totally wussy manor so I guess they are probably giving the sports angling community way more credit for actually giving a cupcakes than we deserve. But they have made this request and we should abide by it. Using the fact that some FN's may be fishing as an excuse to use methods that TARGET sockeye when we have been requested not to is putting sports fishers out there front and center as part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
Some day in the future I can picture the last ten sockeye swimming up the river ther'll be a fleet of commercial boats, a band of FN's with drift nets, and 600 "sports anglers" with 25' leaders all arguing about who's got the right to kill them.
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Milo, you troller. :P ;D Did you get my package a couple months ago? I sent you a couple of emails but I think they didn't get through.
Nosey, good to see you are taking some actions. You better be careful otherwise you'll turn into a Chris as well, then you'll never be fishing again. ;D I do have some key contacts for you to voice your concerns. Let me get organized here as my luggages are still scattered around the room and I will get back to you later.
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The last person I talked to this morning at DFO was Linda Stevens, she was polite, knowledgable, and concerned that this notice didn't get published better. She told me that she was setting out immediately to rectify that. Pay attention guys the DFO is serious about sports anglers not using methods that TARGET sockeye, if you start to catch sockeye change your method or change your location(don't just change the colour of your wool) I still think a simple leader restriction would have made this clearer to everyone involved, but lets work with what we've got.
As for becoming like Chris I had time to fish this morning, thank you, and my keyboard skills are no match for his.
It is so unlike my nature not to resort to name calling and finger pointing but in this case I'd sooner have people listen and keep the river open.
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Milo, you troller. :P ;D Did you get my package a couple months ago? I sent you a couple of emails but I think they didn't get through.
Yes, I did, Rodney, and I sent you a thank you note via email. The stuff has already been put to good use. :)
Thank you again. Big Fish and I are soon heading out for some Vedder action and we just might have a photo surprise or two in store for you! ;)
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Milo, you troller. :P ;D Did you get my package a couple months ago? I sent you a couple of emails but I think they didn't get through.
Yes, I did, Rodney, and I sent you a thank you note via email. The stuff has already been put to good use. :)
Thank you again. Big Fish and I are soon heading out for some Vedder action and we just might have a photo surprise or two in store for you! ;)
Big Fish!!! Is that what you are calling me now?? ;D ;D BTW, Meelo, I already have some pics in for the Contest, so maybe I wouldn't mind getting skunked for a day!!! ;D ;D :o ;D Can't let you win them all!! ;) :D
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OK. if "YOU" are concerned and you want to bounce to harvest Chinook do he following.
Go to the store and buy CIRCLE hooks and use them.
Why, because DFO has looked at this option and found the circle hooks hardly ever snag.
DFO is working through their system a variation order of allow them to use this option in the future. ( It takes forever to get it through).
They, DFO will be using this option in the future to resolve the snagging problem as noted on this thread for endangered runs.
Rodney it is in the IMFP.
So, if you want to bounce use circle hooks.
By the way they still catch fish and will be coming as a regulation in the future. They have been tested on the Fraser and in U.S. rivers.
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How were the results with them when bar fishing? I guess one way would be to try them wouldn't it. ;D ;D
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I've used circle hooks before bouncing and it makes no difference, but if they want to make it law to discourage people that's alright with me. Whatever floats their boat!
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Big Fish!!! Is that what you are calling me now?? ;D ;D BTW, Meelo, I already have some pics in for the Contest, so maybe I wouldn't mind getting skunked for a day!!! ;D ;D :o ;D Can't let you win them all!! ;) :D
But of course...with all those pics of huge red springs you have been posting recently, Big Steel simply doesn't fit you this time of year. :P
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Do you think only good spring bottom bouncers are gonna be out there, give me a break, Yesterday there were no FN nets out up this way but lots of bottom bouncers In places that catch sockeye using methods that catch sockeye maybe there should be some sort of test to see who's a good spring bottom bouncer and who isn't ;D, or just put a leader restriction on and just about totally eliminate any bycatch. We can't do anything about what the DFO and the the natives do between themselves but we can clean up our act as sportfishers.
Hear Hear.
Anglers should be spearheading the way and setting an example for being responsible and conservationally minded users.
It doesnt matter the numbers of other users. The fact remains that anglers are stubbornly snagging fish when they could be using much much more selective measures that have been very very successful of late for chinook.
I wasnt aware that people have snagging down to an art where they can selectively hook certain species!?!?! ;D ::)
Dont play the numbers game! Sure, nets are potentially very bad, Im not taking that fact away, but dont use that as an excuse to behave poorly as well. Only the fish lose when people do that. :'(
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Why don't they put in the regs that you are only allowed to fish with a set line i.e. no drifting. This reg can be put in place on the Fraser from Mission to Hope and only for the time that the Stuarts are moving through. No need to bother with leader lengths, you can easily tell from far away if someone is bouncing. Won't affect the bar fishing and sturgeon fishing. The only fishery I can see being affected would be the creek mouth fishing but when the stuarts are in, the river is too low for that.
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Do you think only good spring bottom bouncers are gonna be out there, give me a break, Yesterday there were no FN nets out up this way but lots of bottom bouncers In places that catch sockeye using methods that catch sockeye maybe there should be some sort of test to see who's a good spring bottom bouncer and who isn't ;D, or just put a leader restriction on and just about totally eliminate any bycatch. We can't do anything about what the DFO and the the natives do between themselves but we can clean up our act as sportfishers.
Hear Hear.
Anglers should be spearheading the way and setting an example for being responsible and conservationally minded users.
It doesnt matter the numbers of other users. The fact remains that anglers are stubbornly snagging fish when they could be using much much more selective measures that have been very very successful of late for chinook.
I wasnt aware that people have snagging down to an art where they can selectively hook certain species!?!?! ;D ::)
Dont play the numbers game! Sure, nets are potentially very bad, Im not taking that fact away, but dont use that as an excuse to behave poorly as well. Only the fish lose when people do that. :'(
Well said 2:40. It comes across as childish to me when bottom bouncers play the "well, if they're breaking the rules, then I should be allowed to as well" game. Do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution? Anglers should be leading the way, not getting dragged into the same messes that have been afflicting our fisheries for so long.
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I'd sure go for a stationary fishing only or a leader length restriction, this voluntary thing is not working, I saw more than 40 bottom bouncers between Hope and Laidlaw coming home just now and ther were a few of the more popular spots I couldn't see from the road. I also saw quite a few sockeye breaking the last few days
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Close the sockeye fishery for good as it has turned into nothing but a gong show. As for flossing /BB ban it as well and go to Bar fishing / fixed weight only. Prior to the sockeye fishery things were much more civilized on the river. I'll bet DFO would like to return to the good old days.
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I bet a lot of flossers mainly fish the sockeye run each summer not spending as much energy on fall salmon or steelhead...as well the sockeye run is not a hard fishery to have success with so it is a good draw for new fishers too.
"Good old days"?? Unless you are talking of run sizes, I don't think DFO cares about the "good old days"! Do you think gov. wants to turn its back on all the cash generated from those licenses and salmon tags? Thats really what drives them.
I know a gentleman who managed the allocation of sockeye quotas for 5-8 years back in the 80's as I recall. His comments to me was that the sport impact was always so INSIGNIFICANT that our getting a crack at those fish was never even a question (during his time anyways). I don't think that our impact on the stock has changed that much since then in terms of how many fish are take VS the total run size.
Bottom line is that the sports sector is so small in comparison to the native & commercial fishery that DFO can't expect us not to fish if there isn't a total river closure.
I wonder how many of the bar fishers who actively go against flossing have access to a boat? My feeling is that if they faced the same constraints as all the flossers fishing walk in bars, they may have to come down off their high horse and be a little more open minded.
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Man - give this issue a rest. I'll fish the way I want to fish and you fish the way you want to fish. As long as they're both within the regulations why is there an issue.
The regulation is the problem not the method.
I love the activity involved in BB-ing and I like my red springs canned. I find Bar fishing boring. If they change the regulation then I'll find away to make bar fishing less boring if I still want red springs for canning.
Don't preach to me about BB-ing or try make me out to be some sort of law breaker because I like to BB. I'll do it as long as we can because it's an fun way for me to legally catch the fish I love to eat. If BB-ing becomes illegal then I'll stop it and find another legal way to catch them.
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Way to go, Rieber. Stand up & be counted, BBers. If you look at the numbers at the bar, BBers are definitely the majority. In the democratic society of Canada, the majority rules. :)
Unless DFO outlaws BBing, there is no reason to stop fishing the way majority of the Fraser fishers like to fish. BBing is not blind fishing. Good BBers can map out the bottom of the river by boucning with great skill. That is why in any BBing bars, you will find only a few who consistently catch fish, particularly springs, while others fail. My friend (a forum member) was into 11 springs hookups in two trips and there was not one sockeye touched. Most people were skunked but not him, times after times. No name will be forthcoming as he wants to fish in peace. I think in the end, people have to respect other fishers' choice of fishing method as long as it is permitted under the law.
Like I said in another thread, if every BBer turns into a bar-fisher because BBing is outlawed due to the relentless lobbying by a few bar-fishers who are politically well connected to the authority, then the bar fishers will find their favourite holes or 'private islands' invaded with people without casting room. Each bar fisher requires much more space separation from each other as compared to BBers. Good BBers are known to sychronize their casts when standing less than a rod's length apart.
In terms of conservation, I just don't witness any sockeyes caught in the bar I went whereas FN catch them & keep them massively, endangered or not. If the stock is that endangered so that even an incidental catch & release is too much, then FN should stop as they have no priority over conservation. Even test fisheries should stop. Oh well, should bar-fishing go on? Good luck! I don't think so. The method still catch sockeyes and the poor thing has to drag up to 1 lb of lead during the fight as compared to our 2-3 oz. ;D A bar caught sockeye is a dead fish indeed.
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Have a read of Eagleye's post via the link below.
Right on the money!
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=11008.0
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The regulation is the problem not the method.
That seems to be the main theme in this thread. After sitting on Sport Fish Advisory Boards for many years I have asked why the regulations can not be more clear on this issue. Why post a request to fish selectivly when you could word the regulation to eliminate the bottom bouncing ( after all, is this not the intent of the current regulation?) The answer I have received many times is that DFO does not have the regultory power to put that type of regulation in place. To get a stationary weight regulation in place they have to vet the regulation thru the Sportfish Advisory Boards ( public consultation) and then to Ottawa. Evidently that is a multi year process.
As I see it, this issue revolves more around ethics than anything else. And how do you regulate ethics. Very hard because what is acceptable to one is not to another. I have been told that is one of the reasons DFO does not want to "get into the tackel box of the anglers". Their more concerned with the big picture issues such as allocation. The sport fishery allocation for sockeye, pink and chum in 2006 for the South Coast is 5 % of the total catch. This info was gleamed from the 2006 South Coast Management Plan document that was released a couple of weeks back. So with the exception of threatened stocks, the sockeye sport fishery is a non-issue as it's just an allocation to a user group. So now your back to how to allow the chinook fishery while the early Stuart sockeye are in the Fraser? Toatal closure or a regulation that is open to interpertation? I think that unless DFO gets lots of comments/suggestions from the public on this issue, your just going to see more of these regulations in the future.
Prior to the sockeye fishery things were much more civilized on the river. I'll bet DFO would like to return to the good old days.
I have to agree with Buck, Im sure a lot of people in DFO wish this whole mess would just go away.
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This thread comes up every year, just like clockwork.
Sportsfishermen get 5% of the commercial catch numbers. get over it.
You who feel that the sportsfishermen are killing the runs are out to lunch.
However you might be responsible for killing runs of fish due to urbanization and water.
What about houses and cottages on these rivers that are creating problems?
What about all the cottages/ houses on Cultus Lake? Are you prepared to up your taxes so they can buy out everyone of these and put it back to the way it was prior to man?
If you want to do something constructive as opposed to ranting on about this get involved.
Get involved on water rights, river restoration etc.
That will help to ensure there are fish in the future.
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Well said World Famous! However, take a look at the posts regarding the defenders of BB'ing and I don't think you'll find anyone posing to be a 'Sport Fisherman'. This technique is the best way to put meat on the plate or jammed in a can.(Other than a net) I partake in BB'ing Springs and Soxs every year, and have never once left the river with my limit thinking I enticed the fish to bite or had any great skill displayed to catch them. It is purely for the enjoyment of the great outdoors and the filling of my belly. Those people who choose not to BB have every right to tell me this style of fishing is not sporting. I agree with them. I on the other hand don't see the sporting aspect of tossing a 16oz weight into the Fraser, grabbing your six pack, sitting back relaxing in your lawn chair waiting for the bell to ring. It probably is more of a social thing and great times are had by all, but I like to be a little more active in my snag...fishing than that.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. "Shut the whole river down if it's that important".
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Fun Fish
You mentioned that your fishing buddy was into 11 springs in two outings. Catch and release at temperatures approching 19 degrees could be lethal to chinook or sockeye after release. Although these fish may appear to be fine at release they have expended a large amount of energy . One of my pet pevees is anglers telling me about the 20 - 30 sockeye, and numerous chinook that they have released during a single outing.These anglers are not aware of how stress is affecting these animals or they don't care. How about catching your limit for the day and then going home. As for not seeing any sockeye being caught BB thats because there are so few. Early Stuart run size has been downgraded from 84K. Only 12 k have past Mission so far and some of those fish are headed for the Vedder River.
I'm not anti BB as I have done my share, but lets not kill fish becuse we want to impress our buddies.
Fishery stats said sports anglers killed 40 k sockeye last year and release 70k. How many of those fish released actually made it to the spawning ground ? If temperatures were near 20 degree C, not many. Temperatures are already 21 degree C in the Stuart River which will most certainly be lethal to a large % of adults.
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For recreational fishery, no matter what method you fish. You will catch sockeye once in a while. C&R will cause death. However, not 100. Unlike FN netting, which is 100% mortality rate let it be sockeye or chinook.
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No body said my friend C&R springs for fun. He just hooked into that many springs but could not land until he landed one. One spring emptied his whole spool. In this aspect of failing to land a hooked spring, there is no difference between BBing & bar fishing. Springs are not easy to land by either method. At least springs hooked by BBing do not have to drag a lb of lead along which depletes their much needed energy for long migration.
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Some people just don't read before they post. Don't take offence funfish.
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It is human nature to think all is well with my choice but not yours. Bar fishing folks will not think for a second that their fishing method, however unintentional, will still harm fish survival. No method is perfect. They just point the finger the other way at all cost because they don't like our method for whatever reason. It is useless to debate over ethics. If the law allows it, so be it.
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It is human nature to think all is well with my choice but not yours. Bar fishing folks will not think for a second that their fishing method, however unintentional, will still harm fish survival. No method is perfect. They just point the finger the other way at all cost because they don't like our method for whatever reason. It is useless to debate over ethics. If the law allows it, so be it.
It is human nature to try and justify the way we do things!!!!
the way you choose to fish ( BB ) is snagging, the fish don't bite they are snagged, sometimes in the mouth sometimes in the body but they are snagged
the way I choose to fish Bar Fishing , the fish bite the lure they are not snagged and they always come in head first
I used to BB and if you don't think snagging fish is any harder on the fish then you are kidding yourself... I know what happens when you are snagging because I used to do it.. you are bouncing along with a huge hook and a giant leader and you are snagging anything fleshy.. half the time you take a chunk out of the fish and it swims away injured, for every one fish that you get to the beach you are taking a chunk out of three or four others.
I am not going to ask you to stop doing it as it is not illegal yet, I just hate it when people try to compare it to Bar Fishing....
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It is human nature to think all is well with my choice but not yours. Bar fishing folks will not think for a second that their fishing method, however unintentional, will still harm fish survival. No method is perfect. They just point the finger the other way at all cost because they don't like our method for whatever reason. It is useless to debate over ethics. If the law allows it, so be it.
It's not useless to debate over ethics.. It's good that we share our own opinions and views.. You choose your own life style.. I admit it's hard sittin there float fishing or bar fishing.. and waiting for some action that will probably not come for a while.. my my self, I love bbing.... I like it when I feel like every tap is a fish.. it's very exciting to me (not to mention you lose 50% of your gear).. but sometimes you gotta do what's right to save our fish for the future generations.
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I have caught numerous chinooks and other salmon species by means of barfishing, shortfloating and flossing. After a thorough study, a number of trials and A-B tests, I have reached an unequivocal conclusion, which I am pleased to share with all of you on this board:
No matter how you catch them, it makes no difference to them. And more importantly, they taste the same. ;)
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So true.
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I don't think anyone here actually thinks flossing is sporting, nor do we think a flossed fish bit the hook...no one here is that stupid WF.
The regs say a fish must be hooked in the mouth - apparently in the side of the mouth is now close enough. I have pointed out before that if the reg said INSIDE the mouth, flossing would be illegal or if the regs said a fish must be induced into a strike, once again flossing would be illegal. If DFO wanted to change the wording of the regs, put in leader restrictions, ban bottom bouncing, shut the river down, etc, they could do any of those things very easily!
Based on the fact that they could act but instead do nothing, I am left assume that DFO really doesnt care about the sports impact on sockeye. Guess what, as I said before, a family friend of mine who assigned sockeye quotas for several years said the board's feelings when he was on it was that the sport impact on the sockeye run was so insignificant that it was never a concern.
Flossing exsists in a grey area, one that people exploit to put fish on the table. The fraser river sockeye fishery is a good example of a fishery were you really dont have a fish that bites with any great frequency - flossing is the only efficient way of harvesting them. World Famous, if DFO isn't going to stop it because they really don't care, then why should you care that its happening? You made a decision for yourself not to floss, I applaud you. In the meantime, there are more than enough fish to share so I will enjoy accessing them while I can.
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Beat around the bush all you like, snagging fish still isnt sporting. Flossing fish is the grand delusion of the angling community.
Who's beating around the bush? I don't recall any flossers calling themselves sportfisherman. On the other hand you can pass out drunk, have a nap barfishing and call yourself a sportfisherman. I just don't get it. Barfishing is a numbers game as well. Since the river is so dirty you couldn't possible see the fish nibble your huge spin'n glo. I think that the natural reaction of the salmon to open and close their mouth when they hit the dirty non salt water of the Fraser, causes them to accidentally swallow(bite/floss) your spin'n glo.
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In my opinion, DFO doesnt really care about flossing and we all know its fact that they have very ambiguous regs...ask yourself the question why?
Ever thought that a fractured sports fishing community can't represent itself well and effect change? Ever thought that as long as we are squabling with ourselves, we can't effectively lobby the government and represnet ourselves effectively?
When it comes down to it, float fisher, flyfishers, flossers, and bar fishers are all on the same side and are all a part of the same "recreational" allocation so I think we need to stop fighting with eachother and get on to collectively supporting the resource.
PS - I am going to try and replace "sport" with "recreational" in my postings, ie I am a recreational fisherman...maybe the barfishers will stop get all hung up on the word SPORT then!
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Beat around the bush all you like, snagging fish still isnt sporting. Flossing fish is the grand delusion of the angling community.
Who's beating around the bush? I don't recall any flossers calling themselves sportfisherman. On the other hand you can pass out drunk, have a nap barfishing and call yourself a sportfisherman. I just don't get it. Barfishing is a numbers game as well. Since the river is so dirty you couldn't possible see the fish nibble your huge spin'n glo. I think that the natural reaction of the salmon to open and close their mouth when they hit the dirty non salt water of the Fraser, causes them to accidentally swallow(bite/floss) your spin'n glo.
hmmmmm pretty funny comments.. first of all I have been Barfishing 12 times now and not once have I or anyone else in my party gotten drunk!! if fact on our last day out I didn't see an alchoholic beverage, secondly if you think that a fish accidentally hookes itself on a Brfishing rig then you are dellusional !!!! you have been asked not to BB if you still are then you are not a good citizen!!! if you don't want to Barfish go to the Vedder and floatfish, seems pretty simple to me..
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Hey rick, do you have any kids? I have a 3 and a 4 year old and they know when I am serious about something and they also know when my "no" gets a little rubbery.
If DFO wanted all flossing to stop, it would be SIMPLE to change the regs, close the river, what ever. The flossers going after springs right now have a negligable impact on the early stuarts thats why they havent change the laws/regs to eliminated BBing.
When i am determined about something my kids know it and they know the concequences...DFO can't expect anything when they put out ambiguous regs, flimsy wording in the opening notices, and finally don't follow up with any enforcement or fines.
Anyone BBIng the fraser and been asked to stop by an enforcement office or written a ticket?
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They won't write a ticket because there is no law against it. No law broken so nothing to charge you with. I think this is just their way of trying to turn off as many anglers as possible in feable attempt to reduce the amount of fishermen on the river during this small sockeye run.
In my opinion, from my observations, I believe they've succeeded. Good for them - I hope they continue the same tactic again next year.
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If DFO wanted all flossing to stop, it would be SIMPLE to change the regs, close the river, what ever.
I have to agree. The regulations as it is written currently does not ban bottom bouncing or any other forms of fishing. It is so ambiguous you can drive a truck through it.
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"Since DFO can't legislate against bb'ing and flossing"...Can't??? I absoluitely disagree fisherforever, they wont. It would be simple to change the regs...and in fact an old buddy of mine got nailed for flossing a coho at the tamihi! They enforced it there!
Its a simple matter in my opinion: there are lots of socs to go around, the socs don't readily bite in the fraser, so dfo allows us to harvest them by flossing them (which is nothing more than snagging a fish in the face but thats the best wayto catch socs on the fraser).
I can save my ethics and sportsmanship for smaller runs and smaller river systems and still be a respectible fisherperson.
I don't think a 10 soc a year limit is nessecarily a bad thing...it is more than I took the last 2-3 years if not more but what ever.
BTW I just made a new fishing buddy with a boat...I hope to be trolling my socs this year not flossing them, I used to slay em out at the QA marker when I had a little whaler.
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For years, DFO officers checked licenses & barbed hooks on the sockeye bars but not ticketing anyone for flossed sockeyes as snagging defined in their regs. During their tours of duty, they witnessed sockeyes flossed left & right around them. They have never bent down to examine if the hook is inside or just outside the mouth. That is the end of debate over the legality of BB for the Fraser sockeye/spring fisery. COs have never known to be kind to 'recreational' fishermen if they witness them violate their codes. If the bar fishers feel guilty taking fish this way, they can stay with their bar fishing. As Milo says it well, whether you feel guilty or vindicated in killing a fish with whatever technique, it makes no difference to the dead fish, and it tastes the same. ;D
If you are a bar fisher and a hunter also, using the argument that the victim must be intending to eat your offering to justify killing it, you may as well drop your rifles & bows, and turn into a trapper. Will you? ;)
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I wasn't calling every barfer a passed out drunk! I was merely pointing out the hilarity of the Sport aspect of the pictures of someone barfing whilst (let's call it napping) fishing. I wonder how many barfisherman turn to flossing when the sockeye are in open season? I then wonder how many of them bitch about flossing just to seem more ethical with the likes of this board yet floss secretly. What is the DFO's interpretation of 'selective fishing methods'? I tried to find flossing in there but I couldn't. I believe it refers to natives and their netting. If I fly fish with a 5/0 hook and a few small split shot near the hook is that more ethical?? The worst flossers I have ever seen are some flyfisherman. Attention ethical flyfisherman "THIS DOES NOT MEAN ALL OF YOU ARE SNAGGERS".
As for a salmon accidentally swimming into a spin'n glow, I would never know because you can't see anything in the river. Just the same as not all sockeye are hooked from the outside in. When I catch one with the hook in the 'proper way' does that mean this one bit? Call me delusional again! Do you ever have a spring on that was foul hooked while barfing? How did that happen?
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;D good point all tangled ;D
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i say we all give up on the fraser and have some good old fun fishing the Vedder! ;D haha
P.S. (just kidding)
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Not that I think you ignored one of my questions but I was generally curious about foul hooked fish while barfing. Does this happen very much??
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I guess the anti flossing guys are programmed to consider sockeye fishermen snagging fish, doesn't matter DFO does not consider it snagging. They make their rules to justify their attacks with name calling.There is no need to debate this subject as all points have been debated over & over again before. I think a search will turn up plenty of points. I recall last year even Ironogin gave his interpretation of the definition of snagging as defined by DFO from an outsider's perspective as he is on the Island. If I recall it, he does not consider flossing snagging as defined by DFO.
I am happy to be called a recreational fisherman & take my sockeye under that title. Let all 'nappers' who catch a fish during dozing claim that title 'sport fisherman' if that mode of fishing is that sporty. :) In the end, as some posters suggest, DFO does not consider our take significant enough to even bother. If people are fishing legally, it is their choice, not yours. Fish in peace.
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I agree, take responsibility with yourself and your beliefs. It will make you wiser. Let other people do the same whether you agree or not. I honestly have mixed feelings about flossing as I am sure most people here do if they are honest enough to say it. Anyway, next topic please.
FishinFreak.
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Someone posted earlier (previous page) about bb'g resulting in fish being hooked on the outside of their mouths.
Every fish I've ever caught bb'g was always hooked on the inside of the mouth, even in the lip....
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There are some BBers who seem to hook a high % of their fish in the mouth compared to others. If BB is a random act of flossing, I cannot explain why some folks are having that high% in the mouth consistently.