Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ambassador on September 26, 2014, 05:43:47 PM
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I've been trying out the usual suspects in regards to what I am told works around here for Coho and the odd Spring (Crocs, Koho's and Blue Foxes for the most part), but would like to know people's experience as to the colour variations in the water and their benefits. I've been reading up on a bunch of stuff about silver vs gold vs brass, but how are you choosing what colour variations to throw first? I've been tossing a pretty wide range out there with little luck and am going to order a bunch of the R&B ones next week - but would rather begin to understand what is working for people rather than toss out another handful of money on "Well this looks nice" lures.
http://www.trophytackle.ca/collections/rbspoons
I found some nice hammered silver with blue stripe Crocs at Fred's last week (They are nearly impossible to find in Vancouver) so I grabbed a few as they seem like they would be good. No luck with them in 3 recent outings (1 Vedder, 2 Cap), but I am aware it is early in the season and still have optimism.
Love to know some of your thoughts and what has worked where. Don't worry - I will still be out throwing all I have at them if it is crickets from the crowd.
Stoked to try Every Day's trailing hook method tomorrow. Standby for the stellar fishing report!
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Funny you should mention this...I have been following Dan's thread as well.
I just bought (literally 2 minutes ago) a bunch of spoons from the Trophy Tackle website. Not sure what will work but have an assortment of brass/copper/silver with mostly bright colours red/green/orange etc.
Bought a few spinners as well but I have zero luck with spinners and the spoons work best for me but I thought I would give it a try.
Cheers,
Dan
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Hoop71, thank you for your order. Just missed today's shipping cut-off but we'll have it out tomorrow and you'll receive it Tuesday.
Excellent thread. I believe that blade and spoon plate finish is more important than paint colour. Silver and Gold reflect up to 90% more light than nickel and brass. Silver gives off a white flash, nickel a black. The paint colour is just an additional attractor. I think a lot of it has to do with personal preference and what the angler has confidence in. That said, there are most definitely certain river systems or fish strains that prefer one colour over another.
There are two opposing views on colour selection. Some believe colour selection should darken as visibility decreases. For example, purples and blacks in poor visibility. Others believe in brighter colours as visibility decreases. I am a believer of the first. Personally, I make my lure selection based on water clarity/visibility. Generally, in poor visibility(0-2') I will throw silver finishes. 2-4' visibility, gold or brass, clear water I'll go with copper or even black. As for paint colours, I'll go through the arsenal in a specific finish blade or spoon until I find what produces best at that time.
I highly recommend the following books. They cover everything from "how fish see", lure selection and fish behavior . Huge respect and admiration for Jed Davis and Bill Herzog.
"What Fish See" Dr. Kolin Kageyama
"Spinner Fishing for Steelhead, Salmon and Trout", Jed Davis
"Spoon Fishing for Steelhead", Bill Herzog
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I bought "Spoon Fishing for Steelhead", Bill Herzog 2 weeks ago and had finished reading. Went over to Sea Run and got myself an assortment of R&Bs...can't wait to try them out!! :)
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Can you use hardware on overcast rainy day on tidal fraser?
Can coho still see in low light conditions?
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Hoop71, thank you for your order. Just missed today's shipping cut-off but we'll have it out tomorrow and you'll receive it Tuesday.
Excellent thread. I believe that blade and spoon plate finish is more important than paint colour. Silver and Gold reflect up to 90% more light than nickel and brass. Silver gives off a white flash, nickel a black. The paint colour is just an additional attractor. I think a lot of it has to do with personal preference and what the angler has confidence in. That said, there are most definitely certain river systems or fish strains that prefer one colour over another.
There are two opposing views on colour selection. Some believe colour selection should darken as visibility decreases. For example, purples and blacks in poor visibility. Others believe in brighter colours as visibility decreases. I am a believer of the first. Personally, I make my lure selection based on water clarity/visibility. Generally, in poor visibility(0-2') I will throw silver finishes. 2-4' visibility, gold or brass, clear water I'll go with copper or even black. As for paint colours, I'll go through the arsenal in a specific finish blade or spoon until I find what produces best at that time.
I highly recommend the following books. They cover everything from "how fish see", lure selection and fish behavior . Huge respect and admiration for Jed Davis and Bill Herzog.
"What Fish See" Dr. Kolin Kageyama
"Spinner Fishing for Steelhead, Salmon and Trout", Jed Davis
"Spoon Fishing for Steelhead", Bill Herzog
I have to agree 100% with Michal.
First and foremost - spoon finish (silver / brass / copper).
Second - spoon style (teardrop / oval / jigging).
Third - colour added to the finish and style.
Specific river systems do favour a particular finish / style / colour. For example, when I fish the Island, I find on a particular river, that silver & blue works very well on Coho (yet if I use a spinner, a different colour works better). On a local river, the brass & red Croc works well for Coho. There is one particular spoon that Luhr Jensen no longer makes that is deadly on Coho & Pinks (go figure).
Spoon fishing can sometimes be a bit frustrating, yet very rewarding once you are dialed in to the water. Find an angler that you know and trust who can pass some knowledge on.
I can attest to the knowledge that Michal from Trophy Tackle has. Not only is he a nice guy, but he has tested his product and knows it well.
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As a fishing guide I have the added advantage of having up to 5 rods fishing lures over the same fish under the same conditions.
I have definitely noticed colours having a big influence on success.
For instance I start the day with 2 anglers fishing Silver spinners(no colour added), 1 with brass and 1 with copper.
As the day progresses I see the Copper guy getting most the hookups, I then switch all anglers to Copper.
I will now have different coloured sticker tape on the backs of all 4 guys Copper spinners.
I soon notice the guy with green sticker tape catching most the fish, even though all spinners are the same size same finish.
So my opinion is that obviously lure finish in regards to water conditions is a huge factor, with silver being the most reflective and Copper being best least reflective with the exception of black finishes.
That being said, always try adding coloured reflective tape to a lure once you discover which finish is working and you may just take catching to the next level.
I supply various holographic colour tapes to all my Spinner orders as I understand this can be a day changer.
www.bentrods.ca
Heres a recent video we shot that shows lure fishing action, enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvzaCo_7Mk0&feature=youtu.be
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Thanks for the tips, guys. I have Herzog's book on my Xmas wish list but think I'd be better off grabbing it sooner as my skunk percentage is higher than it should be with the spoons/spinners lately.
Find an angler that you know and trust who can pass some knowledge on.
That would be awesome. I have a few buddies that love to fish but none are veteran river fishermen and are pretty much doing what I am - LOTS of trial and error. We saw a guy come out of the canyon Saturday with 4 Coho (and landed many, many more he said) after we had not had a nibble all day. After speaking with him it sounds like the area we were at may have been a little deep for what I was throwing. Maybe I am not getting my lures down low enough...
Another great vid, Rod. Got a good chuckle at 2:14 ;)
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this is a wicked thread!
some serious knowledge being passed on my some local legends, kudos boys.
them ivory kings hammer the cascade spinners. .
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Was out all weekend fishing, and now that I'm back I feel as if I am somewhat qualified to give some advice (being somewhat qualified compared to people like Rod).
I'll start by saying, spoons vs spinners. It's an odd thing. I've seen a few people mention they have 0 luck on spinners, all luck on spoons. It is 100% based on river. This sounds very odd to many people - but it's true, and holds true every time.
Personally for me, on the Vedder, the coho do not like spinners. I'm not saying you can't catch a coho in the Vedder on a spinner, but I am saying you will be badly out fished by the guy next to you using spoons if he knows what he is doing. It's held true year after year for me on that river, every single trip. Many times I'll start with the spinner, simply because it's what on my rod from fishing the island, only to switch up to a spoon and limit out in 10 casts.
This weekend, same thing. I was being stubborn, because typically island coho seem to like spinners better than spoons. An hour into the morning I had hooked up one fish, and Kitty had hooked up 8 already. First cast after switching to a spoon, I got one. What makes it even more difficult, is on that same river, we went higher up in the system later that day. I ended up out fishing Kitty 7 to 1 on the spinners now, they wouldn't touch the spoons. It never hurts to constantly switch up to figure out whats working. Below is a list of colours I'd never leave home without (for coho). This will depend on where I'm fishing obviously, for example, the only river I've fished where I found they liked blue is indeed the Vedder, blue would be at the bottom of my list on the island. Colour also definitely changes preference based on what system, time of day, run of fish (summer vs early fall vs late fall run coho). All these things take hours on the water to figure out... and it's why I keep a detailed journal.
I'll start with the Vedder as many of you fish there... Spoons are the go to. Stick with solid metal finishes on the Vedder in my experience. Brass/Silver, Copper/Silver are always getting fish for me. If those haven't worked, I'll run a brass/orange. Last thing to go out would be a blue/silver. If you don't have access to R&B, and only want to buy Gibbs from the stores locally, the blue illusion coho spoons are hard to beat. I've also had some very good days on the small (3/16) gold hammered crocs with the orange stripe. One piece of advice I'll give - keep changing until you start hitting fish. By changing it up, I don't necessarily mean changing colours right away. I'd stick with silver/brass and start by a simple cast retrieve (2/5 or 3/8 are best for this, smaller is better for frog water). If the cast retrieve isn't working, cast out and jig the spoon with minimal reeling in right along structure. You will need a sensitive rod for this, as many times the coho hit on the flutter/drop and it's hard to pick up on. After that, try simply swinging them if you're in moving water, then try casting up and "rolling them" by letting the spoon bounce bottom with a small lift every time it hits to prevent snagging. Once you've tried all of that, then switch colour. I wouldn't try different things for more than 10 casts in a row without success - if they want it, they'll let you know quick.
The main spoon colours I use for coho, in order, even on a new river until I figure out what they want are:
1) Brass/Chartreuse - never leave without one of these, especially on the island, they are deadly
2) Brass/Silver
3) Brass/Orange
4) Silver/Orange
5) Silver/copper
6) Copper/orange
7) Silver/blue
One I haven't really check out yet is the brass/green, looking forward to giving that a try,
Spinners:
1) Copper blade/orange body #1 on the island
2) Gold blade/chartreuse body a close second
3) All silver
4) All copper
Many more I will be trying out this fall... and I'll let ya know how it goes.
Hope this helps a bit for the new metal chuckers out there, it is a deadly method once you're keyed in!
Cheers,
Dan
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Dan you should write a book (Coho fishing with Kitty) because I'm pretty sure it would be a best seller.....loaded with all the great pictures you post.
Do you lose a lot of hardware fishing on the Vedder? I've always found Coho in froggy water and often that water has hidden treasures besides Coho namely logs.
BTW...your roe fly caught me 4 coho last year...all wild so maybe work on that.
BN
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being somewhat qualified compared to people like Rod
What are you talking about? You're more qualified than me when it comes to this! :D
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What are you talking about? You're more qualified than me when it comes to this! :D
Mr. Rod Toth that is :-X :P
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Oh what a let down... :'(
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Dan you should write a book (Coho fishing with Kitty) because I'm pretty sure it would be a best seller.....loaded with all the great pictures you post.
Do you lose a lot of hardware fishing on the Vedder? I've always found Coho in froggy water and often that water has hidden treasures besides Coho namely logs.
BTW...your roe fly caught me 4 coho last year...all wild so maybe work on that.
BN
Losing hardware is part of the game. Normally I'll start with a cheap spoon or spinner that I know works just to sort the snags out. Once I know where the snags are I'll start tossing the better spoons that I don't want to lose. I've even done it before where I've cast out a single split shot, with a single size 4 hook and a jensenegg and retrieved it through the entire area I'm fishing, this method picks up coho as well, and is cheap if you lose it.
The more you fish hardware, the less you lose. It's a steep learning curve, but once you're there, I normally only lose 1 spoon a trip, if that any more. Get a good pair of polarized glasses to help you see snags/structure as well, it helps. Yellow lenses are the best for sighting fish and getting the best view. Eventually you'll just be able to look at a spot and know it's snaggy and to move on or to fish around where the snags would gather. Another good option is to scout in low water and take mental notes about where snags are before everything comes up again and the coho are in.
If you know there are snags in an area, try casting just outside them, even 10-20 feet up from them. Coho are aggressive and will move to a spoon. You don't generally need to be right on their nose.
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It can be extremely frustrating for a beginner to learn how to use spinners/spoons effectively.
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once you dial in it in it can be a ton of fun on light tackle. for me alot has to do with water speed and depth.
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Mr. Rod Toth that is :-X :P
Hah!
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Watching an experience angler swing a spoon and get fish is a huge help in learning this technique and realizing that it can be deadly. Seeing it done in person helped me considerably when targeting steelhead. It's certainly not something you'll master in a day! I have since read Herzog's book and it's a great read also for anyone learning.
I don't get out fishing nearly as much as BentRod, ED or TrophyTackle..... But copper is my favourite for steel and copper/orange for coho.
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Dan,
I'm shocked by your statement about using spinners for Coho in the Vedder! Spinners are my go-to on the Vedder and after fishing it steady for the last 47 years I have had a lot of practice.
When I was in my late teens and had lots of time to fish I averaged 250-300 Coho per season and that was before the hatchery was in place. 95% of those fish were caught on spinners.
I am a big fan of Mepps and Blue Fox and carry a large selection of sizes and blade colors. I still fish the Vedder now but never as hard as my younger days. Last fall my best morning was 22 Coho and I rarely fishing later than 11:00am
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Dan,
I'm shocked by your statement about using spinners for Coho in the Vedder! Spinners are my go-to on the Vedder and after fishing it steady for the last 47 years I have had a lot of practice.
When I was in my late teens and had lots of time to fish I averaged 250-300 Coho per season and that was before the hatchery was in place. 95% of those fish were caught on spinners.
I am a big fan of Mepps and Blue Fox and carry a large selection of sizes and blade colors. I still fish the Vedder now but never as hard as my younger days. Last fall my best morning was 22 Coho and I rarely fishing later than 11:00am
That's super interesting, maybe it has to do with the area of river we are fishing (like my previous example from last weekend, upper river it was all about spinners, lower was all about spoons). I typically fish the Vedder down low, and although I've tried, I don't have luck with spinners but hammer them on spoons right after.
Overall numbers for a year doesn't mean much to me, for me it's about staying consistent each trip and getting at least half a dozen fish or more. For me to be consistent, I need to change techniques and what I'm using based on rivers - meaning I no longer use spinners on the Vedder, UNLESS what typically works isn't working for some reason, then I'll change it up. We can throw numbers around all we want, the past 2 years my best days on the Vedder were 12 coho in 3 hours (last year), and 32 coho in 5 hours the year before. I only fish the Vedder 2 days per year now for coho, always on Thanksgiving weekend when I'm home, so I definitely wouldn't claim to be an expert on that river any more - but I do know the nearly 100 coho I've hit in the 6 trips I've made the past 3 years were all on spoons (correction - maybe 10 on colorado blades, half dozen on twitched jigs).
So, since you do so well on spinners, mind sharing what colours work and sizes, or is this just another one of those numbers contests people seem to like to have on here.
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not a numbers game at all, just trying to explain how effective spinners have been for me over the years. I think the fact that I focus on frog water for most of my Coho fishing has a lot to do with the success rate. I know when you started fishing the Vedder because my son and I used to watch you drag home White Springs down Canterbury that were almost as big as you!
As far as what blades / sizes I use it depends on water clarity and height. Low, clear water I will use a brass or copper #2 blade. As the water colors up I will go to silver and a #3 blade.
A #3 Blue Fox with a silver blade and Fluor. orange body is a good high water choice as is a Mepps Aglia #3 silver blade. I will also change spinners starting at first light as the morning get brighter. When the river gets almost unfishable I will go up to a #6 blade and neon colors and still catch biting fish.
although I sing the praises of spinners for Coho I did catch my personal best on a spoon a couple of years ago. it was a 22lber on a gold Iron head spoon casting out of a boat in San Juan bay. I also caught a 19, 18.5 & 17lb that day, not one bite on a spinner! Next time you come home look me up, my house backs on to the Rotary trail.
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Gibbs had a batch of Silvex back in the day that were supposed to be brass coloured but ended up having a copper hue to them. Outfished every other lure most times. Bought up everyone of them I could find. Even found some in Woodwards in Port Albernie when I couldn't find them over here anymore. Sadly there all gone now. :'( Trolled them on the lower Vedder out to the Fraser. Always liked the way the fish would hit them, just go wild for them. Now just use my own Colorados and some Mepps and Dickie type lures.
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Yea, I target frog water on the Vedder as well. Looks like I may have to do some more experimenting with spinners there. I just always go back to spoons as they work so well for me now.
Beaches are generally like that as well - very rarely a spinner bite, lots on spoons. Normally I find smaller spoons work best, but at times the larger spoons or spinners work too, just depends what mood they are in.
Funny about your largest too... That massive one (biggest coho I've ever seen) that Kitty and I got last year was on a spinner, by far a personal best. Biggest on a spoon has been in the 16 range. Most rivers on the island it seems to coho prefer spinners on a 10 to 1 basis, with some daily exceptions.
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I remember seeing a picture of Kitty's fish. How many pounds would you estimate that one weighed?
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Just a heads up wholesale in Langley has a good selection of trophy tackle in stock I just grabbed a bunch and am very impressed with the quality of their products. (http://rs692.pbsrc.com/albums/vv289/Troph_Fisher/Mobile%20Uploads/tmp_12764-20141008_20580378738641_zpsada1d6c8.jpg~320x480)
I've been out twice with them and have been landing more coho than when I was chucking the old bluefox, they also come qith a wicked sickle hook. Great bang for the buck!
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These aren't really spinner or spoons, but I figured they kinda fish similar to them, I wondered if anyone has tried bingo bugs at all? I saw on youtube they were fished under a fly rod, but I wondered if anyones had any success or tried them this year on the rivers? Been curious, so I picked up a couple from Army and Navy but it doesn't look like I will get a chance to swing any.