Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: IronNoggin on April 26, 2019, 12:57:05 PM
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Please join a peaceful protest of DFO’s decision to close recreational fishing to the retention of chinook. Fisheries Minister Jonathan Wilkinson and DFO have announced large blanket closures which are an ineffective way to manage the recovery of early Fraser River chinook stocks. There is no scientific data to support the effectiveness of these closures. The announcement has serious and substantial socioeconomic impacts on coastal communities. We’re encouraging all concerned individuals, groups and businesses to join us to protest the following and push for a sustainable solution.
The reality is DFO is shutting down one distinct Chinook fishery and user group so they can shut down another user group on completely different stocks of Chinook salmon. This closure to chinook salmon retention will do nothing to protect the chinook stocks that need protecting. The closure has been done for political reasons and is mismanagement of the resource at the highest level! We want to make it very clear to Minister Wilkinson that to shut down the entire south coast so they can attempt to reduce First Nation in river impacts on interior Fraser chinook is not acceptable!
The Recreational Fishery has proven through CWT and DNA submission that there is very little interception of threatened Fraser River Chinook Stocks in the Strait of Georgia. In 2018, DNA shows that less than 1 percent of the total recreational catch was of Fraser Stocks of Concern. To say the DFO did not have sustainable Chinook retention options in the spring and early summer in Areas 13 to 19 is simply not true. The same can be said for the West Coast of Vancouver Island and from Campbell River to Port Hardy. The Recreational sector is committed to conservation, enhancement initiatives and standing up to politically motivated management decisions.
The closures to chinook retention in our local area between Vancouver and Nanaimo include Bowen Island, Howe Sound, Sunshine Coast and Gabriola Island. These areas have been experiencing amazing chinook fishing (for non-interior Fraser stocks) for the last 10 years. This closure is being done for the opportunity to keep First Nations nets out of the Fraser to save interior Fraser stocks. Minister Wilkinson and DFO need to recognize that the chinook salmon that are off Bowen Island and across to Nanaimo are not early Fraser stocks of concern. DFO has confirmed this through CWT (coded wire tag ) data and DNA sampling. The resulting data clearly shows that the fish we catch in those areas are not the Fraser River stocks of concern we need to protect. This is a scientific fact, not speculation. The fish we are catching in the Spring and Early Summer are known are mainly East Coast Vancouver Island, Puget Sound, Fall Run Fraser River Stocks of hatchery origin. A mere 10 percent of Canadian hatchery Chinook salmon are clipped. There is no conservation concern for these stocks and a 1 per day chinook limit or a 1 per day hatchery chinook limit, is certainly sustainable, extremely conservative and acceptable from a scientific fisheries management viewpoint.
We want DFO to take real and meaningful action on a recovery plan for early Fraser chinook that includes chinook predator control, habitat rehabilitation, key hatchery enhancement and adequate funding of fisheries officers and habitat staff. Currently there is no plan with funding in place for these crucial actions to take place and that needs to change now! We are requesting a retention fishery of 1 Chinook per day for all South Coast Areas currently without Chinook retention opportunities due to the 2019 Fraser River Chinook Conservation Measures. We support hatchery only retention where science shows elevated interception of threatened Fraser River Chinook Stocks.
Protest Location and Time: May 1, 2019 from 12 to 1 PM at Fisheries Minister Jonathan Wilkinson’s Office
102 W 3 Street, North Vancouver.
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Who's organizing this protest?
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Who's organizing this protest?
Sports fishermen
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Uh. Who is the spokesperson at this protest and under which organization?
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Who's organizing this protest?
A coalition of Recreational Anglers Rod.
They also have the backing of some of the WC troll fleet.
Some of the "larger players" you will recognize will be there should you attend.
If you wish, send me a PM and I will put you in touch...
Matt
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Is fishing closed or is retention not allowed ?
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Is fishing closed or is retention not allowed ?
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/maps-cartes/salmon-saumon/2019-chinook-quinnat-eng.html
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Heh, if i have to switch from retention to release for a few years... and buy my salmon at the store.....
That is a sacrifice i am prepared to make for our west coast salmon.
No biggie......
AS LONG AS FN do their part, i am prepared to do my part. It would great to see a few coho allowed to return to the Chehalis this year....
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From Bon Chovy FB page
Bon Chovy
3 hrs ·
Please join a peaceful protest of DFO’s decision to close recreational fishing to the retention of chinook. Fisheries Minister Jonathan Wilkinson and DFO have announced large blanket closures which are an ineffective way to manage the recovery of early Fraser River chinook stocks. There is no scientific data to support the effectiveness of these closures. The announcement has serious and substantial socioeconomic impacts on coastal communities. We’re encouraging all concerned individuals, groups and businesses to join us to protest the following and push for a sustainable solution.
The reality is DFO is shutting down one distinct Chinook fishery and user group so they can shut down another user group on completely different stocks of Chinook salmon. This closure to chinook salmon retention will do nothing to protect the chinook stocks that need protecting. The closure has been done for political reasons and is mismanagement of the resource at the highest level! We want to make it very clear to Minister Wilkinson that to shut down the entire south coast so they can attempt to reduce First Nation in river impacts on interior Fraser chinook is not acceptable!
The Recreational Fishery has proven through CWT and DNA submission that there is very little interception of threatened Fraser River Chinook Stocks in the Strait of Georgia. In 2018, DNA shows that less than 1 percent of the total recreational catch was of Fraser Stocks of Concern. To say the DFO did not have sustainable Chinook retention options in the spring and early summer in Areas 13 to 19 is simply not true. The same can be said for the West Coast of Vancouver Island and from Campbell River to Port Hardy. The Recreational sector is committed to conservation, enhancement initiatives and standing up to politically motivated management decisions.
The closures to chinook retention in our local area between Vancouver and Nanaimo include Bowen Island, Howe Sound, Sunshine Coast and Gabriola Island. These areas have been experiencing amazing chinook fishing (for non-interior Fraser stocks) for the last 10 years. This closure is being done for the opportunity to keep First Nations nets out of the Fraser to save interior Fraser stocks. Minister Wilkinson and DFO need to recognize that the chinook salmon that are off Bowen Island and across to Nanaimo are not early Fraser stocks of concern. DFO has confirmed this through CWT (coded wire tag ) data and DNA sampling. The resulting data clearly shows that the fish we catch in those areas are not the Fraser River stocks of concern we need to protect. This is a scientific fact, not speculation. The fish we are catching in the Spring and Early Summer are known are mainly East Coast Vancouver Island, Puget Sound, Fall Run Fraser River Stocks of hatchery origin. A mere 10 percent of Canadian hatchery Chinook salmon are clipped. There is no conservation concern for these stocks and a 1 per day chinook limit or a 1 per day hatchery chinook limit, is certainly sustainable, extremely conservative and acceptable from a scientific fisheries management viewpoint.
We want DFO to take real and meaningful action on a recovery plan for early Fraser chinook that includes chinook predator control, habitat rehabilitation, key hatchery enhancement and adequate funding of fisheries officers and habitat staff. Currently there is no plan with funding in place for these crucial actions to take place and that needs to change now! We are requesting a retention fishery of 1 Chinook per day for all South Coast Areas currently without Chinook retention opportunities due to the 2019 Fraser River Chinook Conservation Measures. We support hatchery only retention where science shows elevated interception of threatened Fraser River Chinook Stocks.
Protest Location and Time: May 1, 2019 from 12 to 1 PM at Fisheries Minister Jonathan Wilkinson’s Office
102 W 3rd Street, North Vancouver.
(https://i.imgur.com/kC0cQSD.png)
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Is fishing closed or is retention not allowed ?
Fishing is over as we once knew it.
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This is about time to let DFO know that sporties cannot be used as a sacrificial lamb just to please their FN masters. It is not just about this fishery. It has happened all too often on the Fraser especially. All concerned recreational fishers should show their support even if you don't get affected by this closure.
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Fishing is over as we once knew it.
My bar rods sit silently in my room, will the bells every toll (ring) again?
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My bar rods sit silently in my room, will the bells every toll (ring) again?
If you're interested....I have some Bar fishing equipment for sale.
4 bar rods and reels.
30 + Spin n Glo set ups.
2 or 3 nice Aluminum Rod holders (over 4 feet long)
5 bells (one makes a special ring that I hang on my shop door....just so the sound doesn't fade into legend). I think the other 4 bells still ring nicely.
Unfortunately, the older rod has been used to occasionally clean out my Hvac, but its not damaged...
The spin n Glos are getting brittle and may break, but for initial use, that will probably make them spin even better.
The equipment overall has been sitting with dust on it for so long now that it has probably reverted back to brand new condition...lol
make an offer.
Edit....just so mods don't move or delete this post....although I would sell this stuff.....this post was meant to be of tongue and cheek nature.
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Heh, if i have to switch from retention to release for a few years... and buy my salmon at the store.....
That is a sacrifice i am prepared to make for our west coast salmon.
No biggie......
AS LONG AS FN do their part, i am prepared to do my part. It would great to see a few coho allowed to return to the Chehalis this year....
Personally I never buy salmon. Ever ! I dont support the farms or the fleet. My 2 cents. If I cant kill it, I dont eat it. Except for bacon ;)
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It's hard to deny bon Chovy's catch record in local Vancouver waters during this time of year. Barely any entries in July in August though.
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It's hard to deny bon Chovy's catch record in local Vancouver waters during this time of year. Barely any entries in July in August though.
Also, those a records of coded wire tagged fish (hatchery origin). Any wild uncoded fish would not of been included in that list.
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Also, those a records of coded wire tagged fish (hatchery origin). Any wild uncoded fish would not of been included in that list.
He has avid angler data that shows much of the same. Sure lots of Wild South thompson stock during august and some wild harrison in august/ september but not early fraser chinook.
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posted it on my social media.
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Protest Location and Time: May 1, 2019 from 12 to 1 PM at Fisheries Minister Jonathan Wilkinson’s Office
102 W 3 Street, North Vancouver.
The local fishing stores are getting the word out too. In-store and on the mailing lists. Wondering if there is any media coverage expected?
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Are early Fraser chinook stocks trackable by the data supplied by Bon Chovy?
By early Fraser, I assume these are the fish we used to fish fro in May. Can someone shed some light these are for upper Fraser tributaries specifically we are talking about. I know the early south Thompson, Stuart area, Bowron all have chinook stocks (along with many others) but so do mid-Fraser rivers like Seton, Stein, Quesnel, etc. Also, the Lillooet has very early Chinooks that run through the lower Fraser in March and April. Are there tagging or hatchery programs associated with these stocks?
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The local fishing stores are getting the word out too. In-store and on the mailing lists. Wondering if there is any media coverage expected?
At least three media outlets will be there.
Let's hope our message gets across.
Already Global's lead to the story this morning suggested the protect will be by greedy fishermen protesting closures designed to help stocks that are threatened. Seems like they may have been paid off to tout the government line??
Best of Luck! Give Them Hell Ladz!
Cheers,
Nog
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Already Global's lead to the story this morning suggested the protect will be by greedy fishermen protesting closures designed to help stocks that are threatened. Seems like they may have been paid off to tout the government line??
I doubt anyone is paying off anyone, it's just a juicier story to tell. This is why I have a lot of reservation in this type of initiatives. I understand and support the reason, but it's not going to change any decisions and only make ourselves look worse in the public eyes.
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I doubt anyone is paying off anyone, it's just a juicier story to tell. This is why I have a lot of reservation in this type of initiatives. I understand and support the reason, but it's not going to change any decisions and only make ourselves look worse in the public eyes.
Not if it is handled right Rod.
They have keynote speakers that are very good.
Also have glossy hand-outs well spelling out the real story here.
Always a chance of backfire of course, but the rednecks have been reigned in, and I personally wish like hell I could be there.
The real message has to get out to counter the misinformation being tossed about by the Minister and his minions.
There are only so many ways to do that.
OK if you wish to bury your head in the sand over the matter, but one heck of a lot that are seriously and negatively affected by these reckless political decisions are not. I stand beside them in solidarity.
And I do wish them All The Best today!
FYI: Another TV station signed on 1/2 an hour ago. If Global decides to run with it's usual dribble, they will now find themselves standing alone while their three counterparts tell the REAL story. Part of me hopes they do...
Nog
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Pacific Angler is on Instagram live now if anyone wishes to follow the protest.
Both Jason T. and Jason A. are doing a good job presenting the information.
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I have put up the video on the Fraser Valley Salmon Society FB page.
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Are early Fraser chinook stocks trackable by the data supplied by Bon Chovy?
By early Fraser, I assume these are the fish we used to fish fro in May. Can someone shed some light these are for upper Fraser tributaries specifically we are talking about. I know the early south Thompson, Stuart area, Bowron all have chinook stocks (along with many others) but so do mid-Fraser rivers like Seton, Stein, Quesnel, etc. Also, the Lillooet has very early Chinooks that run through the lower Fraser in March and April. Are there tagging or hatchery programs associated with these stocks?
Most of the Fraser chinook are not enhanced. The ones that are the fall white chinook from the Chehalis and Chilliwack Hatcheries using Harrison chinook. The early spring run chinook has some enhancement out of Spius Hatchery on the Nicola River working with Nicola, Spius and Coldwater stocks. There is also some enhancement on the Shuswap summer chinook as well as a small assessment enhancement of the Chilco chinook. The Chilco fish are being enhanced and marked so they can be used as an indicator stock for upper Fraser chinook survival and catch distribution.
There may be some other small public involvement enhancement on a couple of other stocks but nothing significant. Over all, the enhancement on the Fraser is very low. There needs to be a large scale hatchery built in the upper Fraser area that will allow multiple stocks to be enhanced all at once. Would be nice but I can't see that happening as that would require significant money to build as well as operate and the government appears not to want to increase any staffing levels. Sad.
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(https://i.imgur.com/BDrAgbu.png)
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I have put up the video on the Fraser Valley Salmon Society FB page.
Over 200 showed up to protest an unjustified blanket closure on Chinooks. A few key players went in to the minister's office after the protest to voice their concern but the minister is conveniently not in town, only the receptionist there hearing the soul's complaints from these concerned fishermen. What a shame! He should have at least be on the phone line to hear these people in person. If FN chiefs want to speak to him, would he duck them too? Thousands of tax paying Canadians will be facing great hardship, job or business losses, perhaps even their homes, and the darn minister didn't even bother to address these people. Vote these insensitive politicians who are making such heartless decision (to appease FN) out in next election. That is what we can do to let them know BC fishermen can unite to fight these insensitive politicians.
(https://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp136/steelhawk1/20190501_125346.jpg) (https://s405.photobucket.com/user/steelhawk1/media/20190501_125346.jpg.html)
(https://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp136/steelhawk1/20190501_125959.jpg) (http://s405.photobucket.com/user/steelhawk1/media/20190501_125959.jpg.html)
(https://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp136/steelhawk1/20190501_125456.jpg) (http://s405.photobucket.com/user/steelhawk1/media/20190501_125456.jpg.html)
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Most of the Fraser chinook are not enhanced. The ones that are the fall white chinook from the Chehalis and Chilliwack Hatcheries using Harrison chinook. The early spring run chinook has some enhancement out of Spius Hatchery on the Nicola River working with Nicola, Spius and Coldwater stocks. There is also some enhancement on the Shuswap summer chinook as well as a small assessment enhancement of the Chilco chinook. The Chilco fish are being enhanced and marked so they can be used as an indicator stock for upper Fraser chinook survival and catch distribution.
There may be some other small public involvement enhancement on a couple of other stocks but nothing significant. Over all, the enhancement on the Fraser is very low. There needs to be a large scale hatchery built in the upper Fraser area that will allow multiple stocks to be enhanced all at once. Would be nice but I can't see that happening as that would require significant money to build as well as operate and the government appears not to want to increase any staffing levels. Sad.
Data ( per Dick Beamish) indicates that survival of hatchery raised chinook is so low what's the point? The days of 5% to 10% returns on released smolts are long gone. Rates are 2 and often much lower. Wild fish do much better. Better to let those wild fish spawn until some more successful hatchery regime in developed.
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Over 200 showed up to protest an unjustified blanket closure on Chinooks. A few key players went in to the minister's office after the protest to voice their concern but the minister is conveniently not in town, only the receptionist there hearing the soul's complaints from these concerned fishermen. What a shame! He should have at least be on the phone line to hear these people in person. If FN chiefs want to speak to him, would he duck them too? Thousands of tax paying Canadians will be facing great hardship, job or business losses, perhaps even their homes, and the darn minister didn't even bother to address these people. Vote these insensitive politicians who are making such heartless decision (to appease FN) out in next election. That is what we can do to let them know BC fishermen can unite to fight these insensitive politicians.
Dude, he's at work today.
Do your homework before you start tossing out "conveniently not in town", "darn minister", "insensitive politicians" (x2), "duck them" blah blah blah
The House of Commons is sitting today https://www.ourcommons.ca/en/sitting-calendar
I expect the protest organizers were aware he would be in Ottawa today. Otherwise, they aren't good organizers.
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lol clarki
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Data ( per Dick Beamish) indicates that survival of hatchery raised chinook is so low what's the point? The days of 5% to 10% returns on released smolts are long gone. Rates are 2 and often much lower. Wild fish do much better. Better to let those wild fish spawn until some more successful hatchery regime in developed.
Chinook produced out of the chilliwack hatchery are seeing above 4% returns.
Nice to let wild fish spawn if there is water for their redds come spring, lots of redds high and dry this year when the fry were suppose to emerge.
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'This is all optical': sport fishers slam DFO's chinook closures
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/this-is-all-optical-sport-fishers-slam-dfo-s-chinook-closures-1.5119270
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Dude, he's at work today.
Do your homework before you start tossing out "conveniently not in town", "darn minister", "insensitive politicians" (x2), "duck them" blah blah blah
The House of Commons is sitting today https://www.ourcommons.ca/en/sitting-calendar
I expect the protest organizers were aware he would be in Ottawa today. Otherwise, they aren't good organizers.
Of course I know he is at work. It is Monday, a working day for Canadians, at least for those still having a job (and many in the protest will be without one soon). He may be working according to you, but he wasn't working nor representing those BC fishermen and businesses who are deeply affected by the blanket closure. He must have known about the protest and what did he do about it? Of course, ignore them sporties, like DFO often did. He should at least show the respect to the crowd to send a message to acknowledge the concern of the people. Instead he is more concerned about the TV reporting and his public image, and wrote a email in response to a news. and yet not to the people affected. What did the crowd get in response? A receptionist. Lol. Dude, if you are happy with DFO and the minister, go ahead. But let those of us who are pissed by this organization and its head honchos express our opinion in this fight with DFO and if that doesn't fit you, so be it.
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Chinook produced out of the chilliwack hatchery are seeing above 4% returns.
Nice to let wild fish spawn if there is water for their redds come spring, lots of redds high and dry this year when the fry were suppose to emerge.
What's the return for upper Fraser chinook production? That's what the topic was. The Chilliwack fish are already at least several generations removed from wild production & can't reproduce on their own. Last fall the V-C was all but empty of Chinook.
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What's the return for upper Fraser chinook production? That's what the topic was. The Chilliwack fish are already at least several generations removed from wild production & can't reproduce on their own. Last fall the V-C was all but empty of Chinook.
all but empty? but the hatchery packed up thousands in ESSR? Thats a good story Ralph
(https://i.imgur.com/iZDDopI.png)
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'This is all optical': sport fishers slam DFO's chinook closures
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/this-is-all-optical-sport-fishers-slam-dfo-s-chinook-closures-1.5119270
Quote from FN's is what is really noteworthy in the coverage
"Only after conservation and First Nations requirements are met should DFO support a sustainable recreational fishery," wrote Ken Malloway, chairperson of the Fraser River Aboriginal Fisheries Secretariat.
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all but empty? but the hatchery packed up thousands in ESSR? Thats a good story Ralph
(https://i.imgur.com/iZDDopI.png)
for all these fish caught, how many first nation people actually get one to eat and just how many first nation are there on the Fraser?
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From yesterday's protest:
However, anglers say these conditions will do little to protect the chinook populations they were intended for, and harm communities that rely on the sport fishing industry. The $1.1 billion industry supports over 9,000 jobs.
According to organizers, the DFO's own DNA sampling of chinook salmon caught last year shows that recreational fishermen reeled in less than one per cent of vulnerable chinook stocks.
"Sport fishermen are the first ones that want to protect stocks of concern because we want to see them in future years," said Jason Assonities, a local fishing guide.
"We have the data that says we're not really catching them in this fishery, so why are we getting closed down when we're not catching these stocks of concern?" Assonities added.
"For us, it's pretty clear this is all optical, and it's all political."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/this-is-all-optical-sport-fishers-slam-dfo-s-chinook-closures-1.5119270?cmp=rss
Every single time Pierre's Idiot Child can get in front of a microphone he mumbles repeatedly about Jobs Jobs Jobs.
I guess they simply don't count if they aren't in Quebec, eh?
Nog
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What's the return for upper Fraser chinook production? That's what the topic was. The Chilliwack fish are already at least several generations removed from wild production & can't reproduce on their own. Last fall the V-C was all but empty of Chinook.
Oh please, where do you get this stuff? The main reason you don't get a lot of production out of these fish is that they were transplanted into a system that is not at all like the system they originated from. It's like comparing apples and oranges. The two are just not the same. Very little water on the Vedder looks like the rearing area on the Harrison. Might be the reason why there was never a natural fall run stock on the Vedder.
The multi generation statement is blatantly false. Capilano coho which have been cultured since the early 1970's reproduce quite well above the Capilano dam and juvenile densities in the upper river are in line with what you would see in a "wild or natural" system. The problem with the Cap is that a large majority of them die coming over the dam.
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From yesterday's protest:
According to organizers, the DFO's own DNA sampling of chinook salmon caught last year shows that recreational fishermen reeled in less than one per cent of vulnerable chinook stocks.
Is this saying that less than 1% of the total fish caught by sporties is from vulnerable chinook stocks, or that less than 1% of vulnerable stocks get caught by sporties? If it is the first one, that is not very reassuring as the impact on a particular vulnerable population can still be significant. I notice a North Fork Nooksack Spring Chinook was among the fish sampled above. Presumably South Fork Nooksack Spring Chinook are present as well, and those fish are hanging on by a thread.
This also begs the question - if the vulnerable Fraser River Chinook stocks aren't in the catch area currently, where are they now? Are they in another area that is being fished?
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Finally, FWR is interesting again ;D
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Is this saying that less than 1% of the total fish caught by sporties is from vulnerable chinook stocks, or that less than 1% of vulnerable stocks get caught by sporties? If it is the first one, that is not very reassuring as the impact on a particular vulnerable population can still be significant. I notice a North Fork Nooksack Spring Chinook was among the fish sampled above. Presumably South Fork Nooksack Spring Chinook are present as well, and those fish are hanging on by a thread.
This also begs the question - if the vulnerable Fraser River Chinook stocks aren't in the catch area currently, where are they now? Are they in another area that is being fished?
Really good questions CJ.
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Quote from FN's is what is really noteworthy in the coverage
"Only after conservation and First Nations requirements are met should DFO support a sustainable recreational fishery," wrote Ken Malloway, chairperson of the Fraser River Aboriginal Fisheries Secretariat.
Anyone that wants to understand how much closed door planning happens between the DFO and FRAFS (Fraser River Aboriginal Fisheries Secretariat) have a read. Warning, barf bag may be required...
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/index.php?attachments/final-letter-to-dfo-re-kamloops-forum-march-12-14-2019-pdf.45275/
Nog
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Another poster, on another Forum, who gets some of the unintentional ramifications:
"As Coastal Communities all up and down BC and especially on Vancouver Island get hammered in order to appease the lower Fraser First Nations or more correctly, a few bad actors, there is a growing realization that the Financial interests of a great many First Nations in the smaller coastal communities are also being damaged and in some cases severely. Many of their interests are directly connected to the Public Fishery and tourism. In my view they are increasingly becoming concerned about this and as the full impact of how this will harm there interests sinks in I think it will get more interesting for the Federal Liberals. In effect by completely capitulating to the Lower Fraser First Nations in an unbalanced and misguided failing attempt at reconciliation, the Federal Liberals not only turned their back not just on BC's coastal communities but also on the many coastal First Nations who are apart of those communities."
Yep.
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What's the return for upper Fraser chinook production? That's what the topic was. The Chilliwack fish are already at least several generations removed from wild production & can't reproduce on their own. Last fall the V-C was all but empty of Chinook.
Your joking right..... vedder chilliwack all but empty of chinook in the fall 🙄
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Your joking right..... vedder chilliwack all but empty of chinook in the fall 🙄
LLOL! Kind of a shame when they start drinking their own Kool-Aid ain't it. ;D
Nog
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Is this saying that less than 1% of the total fish caught by sporties is from vulnerable chinook stocks, or that less than 1% of vulnerable stocks get caught by sporties? If it is the first one, that is not very reassuring as the impact on a particular vulnerable population can still be significant. I notice a North Fork Nooksack Spring Chinook was among the fish sampled above. Presumably South Fork Nooksack Spring Chinook are present as well, and those fish are hanging on by a thread.
This also begs the question - if the vulnerable Fraser River Chinook stocks aren't in the catch area currently, where are they now? Are they in another area that is being fished?
Its actually less then 1% of endangered upper Fraser stocks are caught by marine sports fishermen in south coast fisheries. Yeah could of played that differently but the other side plays dirty when they say things like all salmon are endangered and on the brink of extinction if we don't close down fishing now to save the whale. so meh
Yes you are right we catch some endangered Puget sound fish these endangered stocks and how they are exploited is negotiated in the Pacific salmon treaty. Some of our endangered stocks are exploited by south east Alaska including these early Fraser Chinook. So it is a trade off. How its worded in the Pacific salmon treaty is the country of river of origin must make the cuts first.
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Oh please, where do you get this stuff? The main reason you don't get a lot of production out of these fish is that they were transplanted into a system that is not at all like the system they originated from. It's like comparing apples and oranges. The two are just not the same. Very little water on the Vedder looks like the rearing area on the Harrison. Might be the reason why there was never a natural fall run stock on the Vedder.
The multi generation statement is blatantly false. Capilano coho which have been cultured since the early 1970's reproduce quite well above the Capilano dam and juvenile densities in the upper river are in line with what you would see in a "wild or natural" system. The problem with the Cap is that a large majority of them die coming over the dam.
that's right they can't reproduce on their own. The hatchery on the V-C can serve no purpose in a Chinook recovery. Neither did I see any great number of chinook on the Vedder last fall. Used to be 80,000 fish return their in fall. What was the return last fall?
BTW WMY it was a great dodge. You too BKK. What is the return rate for hatchery smolt release on the Upper Fraser? Waiting for the reply
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That's easy, it's zero because there are no hatchery smolts being released in the upper Fraser. The Chilco fish that were released in the last couple of years have not recruited to the escapement or catch as of yet.
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that's right they can't reproduce on their own. The hatchery on the V-C can serve no purpose in a Chinook recovery. Neither did I see any great number of chinook on the Vedder last fall. Used to be 80,000 fish return their in fall. What was the return last fall?
BTW WMY it was a great dodge. You too BKK. What is the return rate for hatchery smolt release on the Upper Fraser? Waiting for the reply
Posted by Brian Klassen SFBC
"The survival was generally between 1/100% to 1/10% so that would get you between 1100 and 11000 adults before the fishery. I know because I worked at Quesnel Hatchery during this time. The problem was they were rearing upper Fraser chinook that have a yearling lifestyle and were trying to produce chinook with a coastal strategy of releasing fry of the year. It did not work so that was one of the reasons they cut those programs along with trying to reduce spending. What should have been done is that the fish all should have been reared as yearling fish and that is what you will need to do if you enhance upper Fraser chinook and this is what needs to be done ASAP if were serious about helping these stocks."
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Its actually less then 1% of endangered upper Fraser stocks are caught by marine sports fishermen in south coast fisheries.
this of course could be due to the fact they make up such a small % of the stock of local chinook fisheries. Sort of like in terms of total fish landed in Fraser gillnets in the fall only a very small % are IFS.
But then everyone has a spin on a statistic!
"The survival was generally between 1/100% to 1/10% so that would get you between 1100 and 11000 adults before the fishery"
Sounds like a spin... what is 1/100%?... 1100 to 11000 from how many released smolts? Over what period of time? Thanks for posting gobble de gook.
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this of course could be due to the fact they make up such a small % of the stock of local chinook fisheries. Sort of like in terms of total fish landed in Fraser gillnets in the fall only a very small % are IFS.
But then everyone has a spin on a statistic!
No it do to the Fact they the spend almost no part of their marine life in local waters, They go way off north to the gulf of alaska, Then come back though the JDF and right up the South Arm of the fraser.
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this of course could be due to the fact they make up such a small % of the stock of local chinook fisheries. Sort of like in terms of total fish landed in Fraser gillnets in the fall only a very small % are IFS.
But then everyone has a spin on a statistic!
Sounds like a spin... what is 1/100%?... 1100 to 11000 from how many released smolts? Over what period of time? Thanks for posting gobble de gook.
its a very small number ralph, but you conveniently skipped over the part where he explains why the hatcheries did not work. That being said based on your comments Upper fraser should be doing better because they are not influenced by hatcheries but they are not and failing miserably.
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No it do to the Fact they the spend almost no part of their marine life in local waters, They go way off north to the gulf of alaska, Then come back though the JDF and right up the South Arm of the fraser.
So are you saying then that all of these stocks pass through the areas with the retention restrictions on there way to the river? And those stocks are returning now through later in the summer? In other words, they are all subject to being intercepted in these waters on there way to the South Arm?
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its a very small number ralph, but you conveniently skipped over the part where he explains why the hatcheries did not work. That being said based on your comments Upper fraser should be doing better because they are not influenced by hatcheries but they are not and failing miserably.
I have seen that before.I don't know who this guy [hatchery manager or something] is, but it's not an explanation, it's just an opinion. Again many folks don't want to distinguish fact from opinion. He could have a point and I wonder has this been tried? As I said above new ways to make hatcheries more effective need to be tried. Also have to realize that containing and feeding smolts for another year involves more cost, perhaps 2x as much. Again everyone assumes governments and the public will support spending more $ so they can enjoy catching and eating more fish
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So are you saying then that all of these stocks pass through the areas with the retention restrictions on there way to the river? And those stocks are returning now through later in the summer? In other words, they are all subject to being intercepted in these waters on there way to the South Arm?
No what they have done is the opposite they have just shut down everything, they ignored there own, science for political reasons with the First Nations. Instead of creating a closures corridor where and when these stocks migrate they just shut down everything. These stocks don’t go though area 28, that’s near the capilano or howesound but they still closed it down. They closed down the whole inside from area 17 to 12. That’s Nanaimo to port Hardy and no upper Fraser stocks of Concern migrate though tjoea areas.
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Other stocks shift between the JDF and Johnston Strait from year to year. Even at that some % migrate between both each year.
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Actually Ralph most chinook stocks do not
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for my own interest is there any documentation of this available?
Do all Fraser stocks go out and come back via the JDFS?
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The recovery of CWTS indicated about 1/3 upper Fraser spring chinook were returning on the inside passage in this 1999 report. http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/status/1999/D6-11e.pdf (http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/status/1999/D6-11e.pdf) Other stocks like Birkenhead even had the majority coming through the inside passage. WMY do you have research that contradicts this report?
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The recovery of CWTS indicated about 1/3 upper Fraser spring chinook were returning on the inside passage in this 1999 report. http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/status/1999/D6-11e.pdf (http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/status/1999/D6-11e.pdf) Other stocks like Birkenhead even had the majority coming through the inside passage. WMY do you have research that contradicts this report?
http://www.frafs.ca/sites/default/files2/Day%201%202019%20Fraser%20River%20Chinook%20Conservation%20Measures.pdf
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http://www.frafs.ca/sites/default/files2/Day%201%202019%20Fraser%20River%20Chinook%20Conservation%20Measures.pdf
Johnston strait sport and and Georgia strait sport account for .3% and .44%. Less then 1 % for Spring 4-2, As you can see Terminal FN makes up the most. DFO reasoning was in order to shut down the in river nets that all ocean fisheries that intercept them must also be shut down.
There is also science that shows there is areas and times within the JS and SOG that you could get sport intercept down to Zero, or you could open it up for hatchery retention. Right now its closed and 50% of the fish out there in the SOG right now are clipped fish.
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Johnston strait sport and and Georgia strait sport account for .3% and .44%. Less then 1 % for Spring 4-2, As you can see Terminal FN makes up the most. DFO reasoning was in order to shut down the in river nets that all ocean fisheries that intercept them must also be shut down.
There is also science that shows there is areas and times within the JS and SOG that you could get sport intercept down to Zero, or you could open it up for hatchery retention. Right now its closed and 50% of the fish out there in the SOG right now are clipped fish.
But on the same chart Summer 4(1) sees almost 5% interception in JS and SOG, more than the FN terminal fishery and more than the JDF interception. It would be nice to see more complete data for all the relevant runs.
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But on the same chart Summer 4(1) sees almost 5% interception in JS and SOG, more than the FN terminal fishery and more than the JDF interception. It would be nice to see more complete data for all the relevant runs.
4-1 are open for harvest south Thompson reds, they show up in august locally, No measures are in place to protect this fraser stock. This stock went from 2k returning in the 1980's to over 150k a few years ago. This stock has seen good recovery, was nearly whipped out in the 1980's in sockeye fisheries.
This stock will see added pressure this year as more fishermen focus their efforts on it.
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per your link:
Since 1995, escapements of the Thompson aggregate appear to have increased more than did upper and mid-Fraser populations, likely due to coho conservation measures and declines in late sockeye fisheries.
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From your quote
Since 1995, escapements of the Thompson aggregate appear to have increased more than did upper and mid-Fraser populations, likely due to coho conservation measures and declines in late sockeye fisheries.
Ralph are you this adversarial and pompous in person? its almost impossible to have a conversation with you
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no, neither am I as pompous and adversarial on line as you sometimes can be. ;D
That I point out you are providing only half the info is neither pompous or adversarial. 8)
It's providing balance. Please note I included both 'likely' causes of the increase not just one. Neither did I use inflammatory or hyperbolic language like 'whipped out' [sic]. The Thomspon late summer stock are not considered threatened though their numbers have declined.
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https://www.facebook.com/BCOSportFishingTV/videos/285146075720992/
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Angered anglers protest catch-and-release chinook rules in North Vancouver
https://www.squamishchief.com/news/local-news/angered-anglers-protest-catch-and-release-chinook-rules-in-north-vancouver-1.23811496
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Good job guys! Some very well respected sportfishing persons gave speeches. Was a nice turnout at the event.
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https://www.facebook.com/robert.alcock.88/videos/10155999435322307
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Can’t wait to vote the @#$& out this October.
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how quick we forget what the last conservative government did to the fisheries act to try and speed up the process for pipeline construction. if you think conservatives are actually going to solve any salmon related issues you really have no clue.
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how quick we forget what the last conservative government did to the fisheries act to try and speed up the process for pipeline construction. if you think conservatives are actually going to solve any salmon related issues you really have no clue.
Nobody in Ottawa is perfect. People forget that there was cuts to the Rec Chinook fishery even under the conservatives. Not in the salt but in the Fraser system that's for sure.i am pro pipeline if it means getting Canada off forgien oil back east first. THEN build a pipeline and sell the oil to Asian markets. My 2 cents
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how quick we forget what the last conservative government did to the fisheries act to try and speed up the process for pipeline construction. if you think conservatives are actually going to solve any salmon related issues you really have no clue.
So vote for the Liberals again and send them back to power in Ottawa so they can maintain the status quo?
At least if the PC wins this time around and assume they do nothing to help, the next time the Liberals may change their policies when it's their turn again in the future.
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personally i could care less about the rec chinook cuts as long as it is backed by good science and not emotions. this is a fishery that i partake in every year but will hang up the rods if the scientist say so.
now is the time to start the bargaining process with alberta and the feds about the trans mountain pipe line. lets see the investment needed to actually have a first class response along with proper dfo and coast guard funding. im tired of all the talk. talk is cheap. if the $ not their than fight till the bitter end. chances are this pipe line will be built whether we like it or not so we may as well get some investment in protecting what we all enjoy. it also sounds like alot of countries are interested in the northwest passage including the US, china and russia. with the proper investment we could protect our waters and diversify are resource portfolio and make a better canada for everyone.
also lets not forget about the conservative actions that led to coast guard facilities being closed on our coast. like i said if you think the conservatives care about our coast you are out to lunch.
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So vote for the Liberals again and send them back to power in Ottawa so they can maintain the status quo?
At least if the PC wins this time around and assume they do nothing to help, the next time the Liberals may change their policies when it's their turn again in the future.
we dont have time for these political my smelly socks games
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Rob Alcock and others dont want to come out in the media and say it publicly but the Minister said it loud and clear. In order for FN Chinook fishery cuts, the rec sector needs the be shut down. Nobody wants to say FN in this discussion because they're afraid. In reality it all boils down to that. Plain and simple. Doesnt natter where the fish came from. It's in local waters.
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Im just going to fish when and where i feel like it.
If its good enough for First Nations then its good enough for me.
Tired of living like a hostage in my own country.
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All stakeholders need to keep there members in check. Commercial, recreational and first nations. With out 100% cooperation on all sides these fish are doomed. If I see you fishing illegally I will call you in.
The fish are going to struggle enough with a warming climate. I have the feeling were in for a long hot dry summer.
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All stakeholders need to keep there members in check. Commercial, recreational and first nations. With out 100% cooperation on all sides these fish are doomed. If I see you fishing illegally I will call you in.
The fish are going to struggle enough with a warming climate. I have the feeling were in for a long hot dry summer.
I would assume rivers in Oregon and California are suffering the same warming as BC rivers. It would be nice to know how warm the Columbia is compared to the Fraser. Those seem to be doing well. Not so much last year but better overall.
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(https://www.nwcouncil.org/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/CR%20total%20returns%20through%202018%20with%202019%20prediction%20March%202019.JPG?itok=gx0uRSEh)
https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/tech/science/environment/2019/03/04/columbia-river-salmon-returns-predicted-poor-half-10-year-average/3054335002/
https://www.columbian.com/news/2018/dec/12/dark-days-ahead-columbia-fish-run-forecasts-arent-good/
https://www.tri-cityherald.com/sports/outdoors/article229299179.html
Rogue River seems to be a bright spot:
https://nativefishsociety.org/news-media/abundant-wild-fall-chinook-salmon-in-the-rogue-show-us-whats-possible
one of the best lessons we can learn from the Rogue is that its fall Chinook are 99% wild salmon. Whereas, neighboring rivers have large hatchery programs that have failed to provide the abundance promised through their hatchery programs, the Rogue’s wild Chinook are self-sustaining and more resilient to the environmental changes that we are seeing today in the marine and freshwater environments. Wild salmon consistently win the survivor contest.
dam removal and a comprehensive watershed and fishery management plan involving all stakeholders are also listed as significant factors.
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it would be interesting to see how much Washington state invest in recovering salmon population compared to us.
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Washington State actualy values its sportfishing sector.
Unlike here in BC.
Here we are just in the way and they would rather we were not on the water at all.
Its pretty obvious .
How many boat launches do we have from the mouth of the river up to Hope and how many of them are Government funded.
Now go and look what they have in not only Washington but also Oregon and other States.
Its pretty obvious we are not a wanted group here in B.C.
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maybe they are more united then us to make sure their voices get heard. hopefully some of them can join the conversation.