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Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1346065 times)

Dave

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2025 on: January 07, 2016, 03:06:18 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_diseases_and_parasites

"It is reported that wild salmon on the west coast of Canada are being driven to extinction by sea lice from nearby salmon farms.[47] Antibiotics and pesticides are often used to control the diseases and parasites."
You seem like relatively bright boy; do you believe this statement?
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ClayoquotKid

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2026 on: January 07, 2016, 03:31:09 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_diseases_and_parasites


"It is reported that wild salmon on the west coast of Canada are being driven to extinction by sea lice from nearby salmon farms.[47] Antibiotics and pesticides are often used to control the diseases and parasites."


Wikipedia reality - as backed by Morton, Routledge, Krkosek, and Volpe.

Why am I not surprised.
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ClayoquotKid

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2027 on: January 07, 2016, 04:35:36 PM »

While we're on the topic of fish virology, here's some new stuff on PRV: http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/26983/study-finds-piscine-orthoreovirus-not-linked-to-hsmi/
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chris gadsden

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2028 on: January 07, 2016, 07:03:56 PM »

Wikipedia reality - as backed by Morton, Routledge, Krkosek, and Volpe.

Why am I not surprised.
And how do you dispute this?

I have been following this work for many years. ISA virus is a serious matter,' says Dr. Daniel Pauly, one of the world’s leading fisheries scientists, based at the University of British Columbia (UBC). 'A member of the influenza family in open ocean feedlots is a risk Canada should not be taking on the west coast.'"

I think Dr. Pauly knows more than all of us that post here but I am sure the PAPG will find some fault in this scientist.

It always amazes many of us that oppose FF in our oceans are always hearing from those that favor them stating everything rosie and we have nothing to worry about. ::)

Of course most that say that I suppose have some invested interest in them but that is hard to prove as they hid behind some pseudonym name except Dave.

My name is always out there, on this forum anyway. ;D ;D ;D

chris gadsden

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2029 on: January 07, 2016, 07:06:30 PM »

While we're on the topic of fish virology, here's some new stuff on PRV: http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/26983/study-finds-piscine-orthoreovirus-not-linked-to-hsmi/
Dr Diane Morrison (DVM), Marine Harvest’s Director of Fish Health and Food Safety, was one of the eight authors of the study.

 

chris gadsden

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2030 on: January 07, 2016, 07:21:22 PM »

A local story on this breaking news story.

http://www.theprogress.com/news/364568161.html

Dave

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2031 on: January 07, 2016, 07:35:46 PM »

A local story on this breaking news story.

http://www.theprogress.com/news/364568161.html
I expected better from Jennifer, and really wonder who passed this on to her. Chris, do you understand the words endemic and non pathogenic? Do you understand the difference between ISAv and ISA, the disease?
Make what you will of this but trust me, you and all those who think this is a smoking gun are going to be embarrassed, again.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2032 on: January 07, 2016, 08:38:04 PM »

I expected better from Jennifer, and really wonder who passed this on to her. Chris, do you understand the words endemic and non pathogenic? Do you understand the difference between ISAv and ISA, the disease?
Make what you will of this but trust me, you and all those who think this is a smoking gun are going to be embarrassed, again.
I knew you would say that, I am sure you will be writing a letter to the editor correcting the errors as you see them. We will be watching next Monday's paper for it.

aquapaloosa

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2033 on: January 07, 2016, 09:25:45 PM »

All that trash you posted on the video is all selfish trash not salmon farm trash!

Don't worry Chris as new research results are released you and your anti crew will have plenty to pat each other backs over even if the outcomes are not in your favour.  Watch for creative reporting by anti salmon farming activists much like the work in this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqDP8SnPVA0
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Chicken farm, pig farm, cow farm, fish farm.

shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2034 on: January 07, 2016, 10:33:10 PM »

And how do you dispute this?

I have been following this work for many years. ISA virus is a serious matter,' says Dr. Daniel Pauly, one of the world’s leading fisheries scientists, based at the University of British Columbia (UBC). 'A member of the influenza family in open ocean feedlots is a risk Canada should not be taking on the west coast.'"

I think Dr. Pauly knows more than all of us that post here but I am sure the PAPG will find some fault in this scientist.

Just because Pauly has a PhD doesn't mean he is above being questioned, Chris. In this case, the facts are very, very clear.  He knows it, I know it and everyone that deals with wild salmon on a professional level knows it - there has been no confirmed cases of ISA in wild salmon and farmed salmon tested here in BC.  This was dealt with at great length during the Cohen Inquiry where even the panel of experts on this (including Dr. Kibenge) all agreed that there had been no confirmed cases of ISA in ANY of the Pacific salmon tested by the time of the ISA hearings back in December 2011. Thousands of Atlantic salmon tested on BC fish farms were not positive of ISAv (this was an exhibit presented during the inquiry).  Read Cohen Volume 2.

A few years later, 2 years of viral surveillance work done by the Canadian and US governments did not find ISA or ISAv in wild salmon tested.  This includes hundreds of fish from the interior and the coast. However, as Dr. Nylund (a world renowned expert on ISA) said during the Cohen Inquiry, if ISA is going to rear its ugly head it will be on fish farms first. ISA is lethal to Atlantic Salmon. If it is on farms here it won't just kill a few farmed fish, but thousands.  Not unlike the Chilean examples critics such as yourself frequently bring up here and in the media.  Fact is that we haven't seen any fish kills of that nature on BC fish farms as a result of ISA.  Fish hatched from eggs imported from other areas before were quarantined before release and nowadays farms here use their own broodstock for eggs (CK can correct me if he needs to).  Scientists like Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders found that during her retro analysis of preserved samples of wild salmon that it is quite likely that the ISAv-like virus she was seeing was around our waters before salmon farming began.  I realize that they can be very uncomfortable given how much time you have invested in this, but do you honestly feel more comfortable with speculation being your guidance here? By all means be critical of government or industry, but at the end of the day you should look at what people like Morton are saying and think for yourself if it really all makes sense.

I agree with Dave that is it quite possible that a virus similar to non-virulent strain or different variant of ISAv has existed off our coast for a long, long time and we haven't really noticed it until recently because most of this sampling in the past has been done on cultured fish - not wild fish. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was brought here by aquaculture.

So, while Dr. Pauly is correct that ISA is a serious matter it needs to be balanced with relevant evidence to date here. You also have to look at the farms and see if you are seeing these massive fish kills as a result of ISA.  To just say that ISA is a serious matter and implying that wild salmon are in grave danger because of it without providing some context around that is not responsible, in my opinion. Instead of seeing this as "picking apart" start looking into this more because the information is there if you choose to look for it. This is not solely coming from industry as you can see with the latest PRV study.  I have not interest in leading you astray on this, but I am not going to nod my head in unison and say that diseases on fish farms are running rampant, devastating wild salmon when the evidence to date does not show that.  You and many other fish farm critics seem to be hung up on "risk" and then erroneously extrapolating that as "reality" based on speculation.

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It always amazes many of us that oppose FF in our oceans are always hearing from those that favor them stating everything rosie and we have nothing to worry about. ::)

That's not true, but I accept that as your interpretation. What many of have been saying is that these issues are likely more involved with many factors working together.  To beat up fish farms over wild salmon numbers is spinning tires after awhile.  Although Cohen said that fish farms can pose a risk, he didn't find the doom and gloom that many critics were claiming.  Many of us look at the large abundances of Pink salmon in the North Pacific and wonder why.  Many of us look at this abnormally warm water blob off our coast and want to know more about it's implications on wild salmon survival in the marine environment.  Do you ever question Morton's theories or do you just take them at face value?

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Of course most that say that I suppose have some invested interest in them but that is hard to prove as they hid behind some pseudonym name except Dave.

My name is always out there, on this forum anyway. ;D ;D ;D

Yes, anyone with an opinion counter to yours must have a vested interest in fish farming. That's so old and stale, Chris...lol.  Maybe some of us chose to look into these issues a bit more and question the source.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:46:07 PM by shuswapsteve »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2035 on: January 07, 2016, 11:12:57 PM »

A local story on this breaking news story.

http://www.theprogress.com/news/364568161.html

A variant of ISAv....ISAv sequences.  Isn't that what Dr. Miller found also. What was her take on the variant she found in her samples? Why didn't her findings make it into the article, but information from Routledge's samples back in 2011 did? Miller suggested that the virus variant she was finding mostly likely was off our coast for a long time perhaps even before salmon farming began here, but there is no reference to this anywhere in the report. 

What is the origin of these tested market Atlantic salmon? The "market" is not the origin. Are we to assume they are from BC?

No mention of the retesting of those samples from Cultus Lake as described during the inquiry. Here are the facts missing from the article and the report.

Dr. Frederick Kibenge testified that there was “clearly a positive amplification of ISA virus in those samples.” However, he also said that for Cultus Lake sockeye the product obtained was not a match for ISAv. Indeed, in an email from Dr. Molly Kibenge to Dr. Jones, she says that
“the sockeye clone sequences show homology to short sequences of human, mouse, rat, and zebrafish clones.” Dr. Jones said this indicated
that the PCR results for the Cultus Lake fish were false positives.

Dr. Jones said that, in October 2003, they decided to get another opinion on Dr. Molly Kibenge’s results, so they sent 20 blind samples of Chinook salmon (10 that were positive in Dr. Molly Kibenge’s results, and 10 that were negative) to the laboratory of Dr. Frederick Kibenge at the AVC. Dr. Frederick Kibenge was able to confirm that six samples were positive; however, three of these were in Dr. Molly Kibenge’s negative samples and three were in her positive samples. Dr. Jones said that he, Dr. Molly Kibenge, Dr. Dorothy Kieser, and Dr. Garth Traxler
decided to send samples to Ms. Gagné’s laboratory at DFO Moncton for further testing. Ms. Gagné testified that, in 2004, she received
93 samples from Dr. Molly Kibenge and tested them for ISAv using the same primers and kits that Dr. Molly Kibenge had used, with “minor differences at some points.” Ms. Gagné was unable to find positives in the samples. Further, Ms. Gagné testified that in the fall of 2011, she re-tested backup tissues she had kept from Dr. Molly Kibenge’s samples, using the validated real-time RT-PCR assay developed at DFO Moncton, as well as the Snow segment 8 primers. All those tests were negative.

Dr. Jones testified that shortly after Ms. Gagné tested the samples in 2004, Dr. Molly Kibenge left PBS and went back to AVC.
- Justice Cohen; Cohen Final Report; Vol. 1; Ch. 9; pg. 458
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:23:44 PM by shuswapsteve »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2036 on: January 07, 2016, 11:16:00 PM »

Dr Diane Morrison (DVM), Marine Harvest’s Director of Fish Health and Food Safety, was one of the eight authors of the study.

Alexandra Morton was one of the authors in the study you posted.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2037 on: January 07, 2016, 11:48:03 PM »

While we're on the topic of fish virology, here's some new stuff on PRV: http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/26983/study-finds-piscine-orthoreovirus-not-linked-to-hsmi/

Similar to Miller, Dr. Garver is another scientist Alexandra Morton loves to quote, but when they diverge from her message you don't see them quoted anymore.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2038 on: January 08, 2016, 08:09:06 AM »

Thanks for taking the time for these posts. I hope you along with Dave will take the time to write a letter to the Chilliwack Progress explaining to the public your response to the story.

 As very few read this thread it would be good for others in our area  to see the other side of this topic from you 2 that have so much information on how we have nothing to fear from FF.

Send your letter to this address. editor-Chilliwack Progress <editor@theprogress.com>

 Looking forward to it. Happy New Year and good fishing.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 08:11:54 AM by chris gadsden »
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troutbreath

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #2039 on: January 08, 2016, 08:24:12 AM »

Dave's response to the Chilliwack Progress might get posted, but they are not going to post long winded diatribes that some people like to post on here.  :o ;D
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another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?