Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Dave on April 09, 2009, 02:46:25 PM
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I’m interested in the opinion of forum members, especially the oldtimers. When I started fishing the Chilliwack - Vedder in 1960, Rocky Mountain Whitefish were plentiful. We called them grayling then, and caught them on “hellgrammites” (stonefly nymphs) and “periwinkles” (caddis fly larva). And catch them we did- easily dozens a day if we had a mind. Some were killed but most were released, as I did not particularly like to eat them. But our cat did and I was told by my mother to bring home a small one for her each time I went fishing.
Finding the bait took only a few minutes back then, and Sweltzer Creek was by far the best spot to find the bugs. And it was a great spot to fish when Art Butler, the CO at the time, was elsewhere!
Whitefish were still common up until the early 80’s (help me out here you fossils) and although I did not target them, plenty were caught steelhead fishing.
Now I can’t remember the last time I saw one in the Vedder.
So, what happened? It would be easy to blame claybank sedimentation, or perhaps gravel extraction in the lower river but the fact is populations are not much better in the upper river, above sediment impacts. Your thoughts??
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I think it's just angling pressure that did in the population, people who didn't know what they were killed them because they didn't know what they were, I remember people calling them suckers when they were no such thing.
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When I used to take the kids fishing in the summer to hone their fly fishing skills on the hatchery rainbow fishery. One of us would usually catch one or two during the day. Last time we went was summer of 06.
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The Chilliwack hatchery produces rainbows?
I don't think so.
Too many people are catching, and killing, the young Steelhead that are in the river in the Summer.
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Wow,you must be old Dave[just kidding of course].There is always a population of those fish in the flat water down by the train bridge, only caught 1 down there this year, but I didn't fish there often due to the pressure,it was crazy busy down there this steel season.Don't know where else you'd find them if you were trying to actually target them though.
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I too agree with what your saying Morty, but the fact is the regs say it's okay to take the family fishin to retain hatchery Rainbows in th ved in the summer ::)go figure Eh.
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;D Good thread , I am of the opinion that the whitefish populations declined prior to gravel extractions and the increased clay sediments . I may be wrong ....
Cheers
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Dave
If I were to take a guess at what caused the collapse of the whitefish population it would be the large flood events that have occurred over the last twenty years. I personally think that
they have not been able to recover due to the frequency and severity of storms. We have seen a few small juvenile fish at the hatchery and have caught a few in our minnow
traps.
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saw one caught the other day in the lower
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I haven't seen one caught or caught one myself in many years. I remember catching the odd one as a kid fishing for trout in the lower vedder, probably early 90's
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First of all....
Last time I saw one caught was also during the summer rainbow fly fishing.
I caught a very large one also last year mid river on a colorado, around 2 pounds (the biggest white fish I have seen to date).
Secondly.
I very strongly disagree with Morty and all others that "frown" upon flyfishers catching and RELEASING (for the most part, because I know not everyone does) the hatchery Steelhead smolts. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you stop fishing for springs with roe and prawns because you kill alot more in a day with your over-sized hooks and baits than I do in a full year of fly-fishing >:(
It's a great fishery to get people started off with fly fishing. These fish will readily take a dry, and there is also the possibility of catching a sockeye or a large resident bow in the process. Since I started 2 years ago I have landed 4 sockeye and 2 large resident bows, along with a stray? summer steelhead on the dry fly in the lower. Maybe there should be a new topic started on whether or not you agree with the rainbow (which technically they still are until they go to the ocean) fishery in the summer, I for one do and hope they leave it open to at least fishing (could care less if retention is stopped).
By the way Buck,
How many of these rainbows actually go to the ocean if they have not yet left by August? (when I usually start fly fishing for them).
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Every Day
If Steelhead smolts have not left the river by August they will most likely stay in the system and compete with wild fish. However, there is an out migration of late Steelhead smolts
the first 2 weeks of September. Whether or not some of the larger fish would move out during this period is not known. There has been so little work as far as wild Steelhead production
goes its a shame. Considering this is one of the most heavily fish rivers in the Province you only have to give your head a shake.
One sore point I have is the targeting of wild juveniles between Vedder Crossing and Sleese Creek. Worm containers are prevalent at all log jams and deep pools , even in the closed area
above the hatchery we find all sorts of gear.
Steve Olson spent part of one summer catching Steelhead smolts in the lower river to determine how may wild smolts - juveniles were being caught. If I am correct he caught lots of clipped
hatchery fish and no wild smolts. Steve would have all the results documented. His conclusion was that the anglers were having little or no impact on wild smolt sized fish after the migration
window had passed.( May-JUNE)
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Yea.... I catch VERY few wild smolts.
Maybe around 10 in a year and I fish almost every day in summer.
I also get a fair number of resident rainbows, some up to around 4 pounds.
I only fish around Peach Road, just to relax after working.
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Interesting topic Dave.....I guess I qualify for "oldtimer" or "fossil" as we fished "grayling" as we called them then also, in the late 40's and early 50's as kids. I lived right beside the Vedder Bridge when it was built in 1948 and we fished right off the bridge. You could look down and see dozens of fish! We used a drop sinker, short leader and small "grayling hook" with "hellgamites" as bait. We just hauled the fish right up onto the bridge sidewalk. Never kept very many, as only our cat ate them!
There were lots of whitefish in Sweltzer Creek and we used to watch out for Art Butler, the Game Warden also! Although at that time, there was no problem fishing Sweltzer Creek.
They were a great fish to catch and learn on for young kids. I took kids from my classes out fishing and that is what we targetted and that was in the 70's.
I agree with Buck, that huge movement of gravel from floods has had effect. I don't think they were "fished out", as there were so many and they were really not targetted very much. I think that clay sedimentation has really affected the production of stone fly.I have recently turned over a few rocks looking for them and found very few. At this time of year, you used to find lots of them before you turned over too many rocks. Without stone fly, the population is going to deteriorate!
Usually run into a couple a year steelhead fishing, but none this year!
Usually lots of them in the Harrison also, but haven't tried for them there for a few years so not sure about the numbers there.
Would like to know more as it would be a great fishery to promote for family fun to get kids interested in fishing!
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Wow~!! I catch them alot for the red spring season on Vedder and stave.
Last year I hooked more then ten for a month.
Am I the luck one?? :D
Cheers~!! ;D
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Hey bravo252 - thanks for the info. How many of the ten Rocky Mountain Whitefish (RMW) you hooked were in the Vedder? You were fishing for chinooks and caught whitefish; may I ask your lure or bait?
I am a big fan of RMW; love fishing them and want to learn more of their life history. Greybark, Buck, Lew, and others, thanks for your comments. I suspect the decline of RMW in the Chilliwack - Vedder is a combination of all the mentioned problems, but the fact the upper river is virtually immune to sedimentation and major high water events
makes me think there is something else happening here. Just a few more comments:
I have worked on/fished an interior river nearly every fall for about 35 years - this river is absolutely loaded with RMW and I have caught many at an estimated 3 lbs; measured 20". The largest always are a bronze colour, larger scaled and have a very noticeable hump at the base of the neck, just behind the gills, a feature I have attributed to old age (but have no data to defend).
Once, while crossing a bridge over this river, looking for sockeye, I was fortunate to observe a huge pod of RMW .... this group of fish, at least two layers ( perhaps more) deep covered an area of an estimated 500 square feet ... at least several hundred fish, more likely thousands . Another time, on Elkin Creek, deep in Chilcotin, another pod was observed again near a bridge. In this group there were probably 100 RMW and, in the middle was a very conspicuous individual fish because it was a deep yellow colour ... same size, same traits as the others but stuck out big time due to its colour.
Rocky Mountain Whitefish, along with the invertebrates they depend on may well be the canary for our rivers; I fear we have may have lost that diversity on the Vedder
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Have you ever wondered that it may have alot to do with the extreme LOW water events we have been experiencing lately. I remember a few times in the last 4 year since I started fishing where tailouts were only inches deep and the water warms up very quickly.
A few years ago during the low water period and warm water I saw something that very much bothered me. Over the span of 2 weeks of the sun we were having I caught at least a dozen or so fish with large white blisters ALL over them, almost like you would see on a rotting fish, but parts of the fish were still bullet chrome, one of them even had sea lice still. I am wondering if these were burns from the sun coming through tailouts or just sitting in lower water that got too warm. I also observed these "blisters" on a bull trout and a residualized smolt.
I also caught a very large RMW on the Vedder last year - mid river on a colorado during Steelhead season... here are some pics from my cell phone. I too, noticed a bonzish colour on this one although it turned out pretty silver in the pics.
(http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq336/EveryDay_fishing/5284627969_0-Copy.jpg)
(http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq336/EveryDay_fishing/5284626817_0.jpg)
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I have also caught white fish while fishing for reds in the summer on the vedder.
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Hey bravo252 - thanks for the info. How many of the ten Rocky Mountain Whitefish (RMW) you hooked were in the Vedder? You were fishing for chinooks and caught whitefish; may I ask your lure or bait?
I remember I hooked them around 7-8 on Vedder, and the bait was mostly salmon roe and blade.
This year I will try for them with 3wt fly!!!!
Cheers~!! ;D
Bravo~ :D
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Hey ED - nice Pikeminnow! I hope you can post some photos if you catch any more fish with "blisters".
Your theory of warm water being the culprit got me looking at some water temperature data I collected over the years. Although my Chilliwack-Vedder data is limited (3 years) the warmest I recorded was 19.5°( Lickman Road area). This temperature is stressfull for salmonids, especially over time. In this case it was for one day, but the potential is there for compromising summer sockeye stocks, especially early Cultus sockeye which are in the Vedder in July.
The interior river loaded with RMW I mentioned, during low flow, regularly reaches 22° - 24°, and this often over extended periods of time. This data set is much larger - close to 50 years.
So, although I don't think warming water caused the demise of Vedder whitefish, I do think it's possible the huge mass of fish I observed in that river were attracted to cooler, upwelling water. I cannot think of another reason so many fish were in one spot.
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Is that a pikeminnow (I just realize now that I said pikeminnow, meant whitefish lol)?
Sure didnt look like it when I brought it in.... Way more silver than I've ever seen any pikeminnow hmmm....
Now that I look at the mouth though it does look more pointing forward than a whitefish would be.
Just looked it up, compared pics, def a RMW and not a pikeminnow, noticed the "hook" on the mouth.
The year I saw the fish with blisters was 2 years ago.
I have only ever seen this one other time since then, but it was also during summer on a spring.
It seemed to mostly be on the bigger fish, hence why I was wondering if they maybe got stuck in tailouts or got burned coming up with their backs in the sun?
Would be interesting to do a study on how water temps affect whitefish and salmon/trout species... maybe make it an experiment while I am in university ;)
When were your water temps taken on the Vedder?
Like I said I have only been fishing 4 years, would be intersting to compare data if I were to take temps this year.
I like your theory also of the schooling whitefish, does any one know if they are normally a schooling fish?
Here's a link to provide some info on water temps they like and how they spawn :
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.flyfishusa.com/newsletter/062903/whitey.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flyfishusa.com/newsletter/062903/&usg=__NA6kDalI-9q9I0-6Hj1przLbjbs=&h=127&w=252&sz=9&hl=en&start=63&tbnid=4wAXZmPk23pN-M:&tbnh=56&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drocky%2Bmountain%2Bwhitefish%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D54
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Thankyou Everyday for the excellent link. The lower Vedder River temperatures I mentioned were collected 04/24/99 to 12/01/01, using a pre-programmed Vemco data logger; the 19.5° day was Aug 13/01. Obviously water temperatures could have been higher since then.
Upper river temperatures are always colder than the lower river; this data is available from the Chilliwack River Hatchery.