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[Nostro]

Buck this is the price we pay for having the sockeye fishery on the Fraser that we have debated over and over again. Of course when we debate this and what we see it is doing to our fishery a number of us are said to be elitist etc. but all I have to say the proof is in the pudding now boys as we observe what we have created, a monster on the Chilliwack Vedder River system.

Chris, I fished the Fraser River from many bars from Chilliwack to Hope this summer, and other summers. I did see some unethical fishing styles now and then. But, nothing like what I am witnessing on the Vedder so far this year. It seems like almost everyone within my sight of vision is desperate to catch a fish by whatever method possible. Snagged fish, caught on bouncing betties with 14 foot leaders are a common site. I witnessed 3 generations of the same family bouncing betties on 50 Lb. braided line and hooking a spring through the eye. When I drew their attention to this, the father yelled that it's in the head and that's all that counts. BONK! The aggressive behavior and the rudeness is unequaled in my years of experience,
So, I take exception when you compare this to the Fraser River fishery. What brought on this desperation to get a fish by any means I have no idea. Is it hunger? Is it greed? Is it frustration when we are witnessing others who seem to get more privileges than the majority of Canadians. May be it's all those things, and more. But, it's disgusting and disturbing. For the first time in the 10 years I have been fishing the Vedder, I am not enjoying it. I will seek more remote areas where I don't have to even witness these behaviors, but that does not help the fish.

[BwiBwi]

We also need to understand that hatchery programs the funding comes from fishing license.  If we change the regulation how will the current funding level be effected?  Would this actually be better?  One question I do wonder is how many people out there fishing actually bought a fishing license w/ salmon stamp?

[Nicole]

Actually that is not true, the feds fund the hatchery, and that funding comes from general tax revenue.

The freshwater hatchery that stocks lakes with trout is run by the freshwater fisheries society, which is funded by freshwater fishing licences.

Here is a link:
http://www.gofishbc.com/whofunded.htm

Cheers,
nicole

[BwiBwi]

Hmm okay, so where does all that money from salmon stamp really ends up?

[Steelhawk]

Politicians expensive trips & 5-star hotels, not in the 600k coho being cut. 

[Eagleye]

Hmm okay, so where does all that money from salmon stamp really ends up?

Only $1 dollar from each stamp sold goes to conservation and the rest goes to general revenue!

[Nostro]

Hey Bill, please read Nicole's link again. Licences are Provincial fees and those fund the programs outlined in Nicole's link. Harper is Federal, which funds the hatcheries from general funds.

[buck]

Nostro, your right, for the first time fishing the Vedder has become an experience one would like to forget.  I witnessed a guy at the cement slab below the hatchery today hook fish after fish, all deliberately snagged. This guy was on the back side of the river and was sight fishing with Polaroids. One hatchery staff member shouted across to him that he should use a treble hook as it would make it much easier. He took offense to this and wanted to settle the issue with fisticuffs.

[slimyfish]

Buck, thanks for the latest status for hatchery returns.  Your comments " On a more positive note, we had our first fish sort today at the hatchery and processed over a thousand coho, all of which were larger than in past years. Lots of fish in the 8 - 10 lb range. Some fish to 14 lbs." are these fish sold off to supermarkets since they are processed?  On many occasions in the years past, a tour to the Chilliwack hatchery I would witness hatchery staff sorting/processing salmon and placing them into large blue containers.  Staff members have mentioned many times to us that they sell off surplus fish even for as little as 20 cents a pound!    Now after reading your post about sight, long lining and snagging, I would say both parties are guilty of harassing these wonderful creatures.  The fishermen with their need to take fish home by any means and the hatchery expects large returns so they can sell of more($$$).  Hopefully I read this all wrong, good to hear of a 1000 Cohoes in the hatchery already.

[newsman]

As  sight fisherman I resent the slurr. Yes I sigth fish I want to see exactly how a fish reacts to my fly especialy when I am try to come up with a new pattern. As a sight fisherman I am also selective on which fish I target. I am not interested in numbers, been there done that, after enough 50 trout and 30 salmon days, the ego thing fades and all you get is tired. So I like to target healthy fish which I know will survive when released; and as for the ones I keep I get first rate quality. For my application sight fishing is selective fishing as apposed to the shotgun approach.

[Rodney]

Buck is referring to a slightly different type of sight fishing technique.

[newsman]

Point noted; thankyou Rod.

[canoe man]

im really liking nicoles approach with the limit thing
but i think 10 fish a year maybe a little low
what if youve got a family with a couple of teenagers
who like to eat salmon but are to busy playing nintendo  lol
but i think a limit is a really good idea, after that its catch and release
for the SPORT of it.

but all the rules in the world wont mount to a hill of beans
if there is no one around to enforce it,
that is not a slander to those who are already out there enforcing our laws
i just wish we could have alot more of them.
who else out there would be willing to pay say ten twenty bucks more for there licience
with the proceeds going to more enforcement, i know i would
compared to alot of other countries weve got it pretty good here in canada
cnm

[Murkeywaters]

Thanks for the links Rodney,

Seems I should have looked harder for the articles!!

All a lot simpler than I thought an other than fishing a little to deep it was good to know my methods didn't put me in the snag/floss category.

thanks for the help, look forwards to giving it a try shortly.

Tight lines,

cheers,

Paul.

[2:40]

I feel Buck's frustration and submit that angling is in very serious trouble.

Im curious as to solutions to this issue. Many have been around and around the issue that many feel began and continues to fuel this problem (Fraser sockeye snagging/flossing). But I believe we are way beyond expecting debates on the topic to fix the problem. This is keeping in mind the root of the debate surrounds the following:

Ethics
Morals
Fair chase
Acting in a sporting manner
Respect to the resource
etc..

I submit that if one brought these issues forth to 90%+ of the people 'fishing' the Keith Wilson Bridge, these questions would be met with blank stares. It wont be because they cant hear you over the "RIPPPPPpppp" sounds as they all keep setting their hooks, it will be because these ideals have no meaning to most of these guys. They are not out here for those reasons, and they cannot be blamed for it. They are here to harvest. It is no different AT ALL from the Fraser sockeye to them because it ISNT different. The above questions are easy for myself and others of whom were brought up to fish within angling standards or to stay home if not. This is why many of my friends did not fish, because it was too boring and it was easier and probably more exciting to get a fish from the store.

But now, a manner of 'fishing' has been discovered that takes the boredom and lack of catching out of angling and they come out in droves because the things that held them back from fishing before no longer exists. Sadly, the things that kept them away are CRUCIAL to the sport and without them, well, we can all see what's happened regardless of agreement on how we got to where we are now. Dont get me wrong, new anglers are great and I love nothing more than taking a new angler out fishing, but as in most everything else, you want to participate, you must follow approprite standards. It shouldnt be any different for fishing.

Sure, there's always been the guy who snags fish, kicks fish back into the water, takes more than he needs and is only there for the meat. We used to call them poachers (when they snagged) and while some may protest to this statement, they were always considered non-sportsman (beeks) and while right or wrong, it helped keep this angling element down to a dull roar. When I started fishing, the majority fished to get a bite. The amount of garbage, abuse to fish and abuse to angling seen was minimal. Now, it has completely reversed; the majority 'fish' to get a fish in any way possible. Welcome "it's close enough to the mouth" mentality and anyone who speaks up now either gets blasted for being an elitist or is genuinely misunderstood.
 
What do we do? Ive done what I can. I stopped snagging the Fraser River for sockeye as I feel this started the problem we have. Sure, I got my two, picked up my and others' garbage and left. Ideally, I and others could do this and there wouldnt be as much a problem. But there IS a problem, and the only choice for me as a step in the right direction was to set an example that snagging of any kind in any place for any reason is wrong. How else can I express and share concern on the topic unless Ive made a clear and solid position?

I try to educate and share ideas and this has produced mixed results and major hard feelings. While there are many anglers on the fishing boards who do/should know better, how many are being reached that cause the real problem as Buck described? (The cause started by the guys who used to (myself) and still do snag sockeye) As I stated earlier, do many if any guys who are snagging springs one after another waiting for one to be "hooked close enough to the mouth" come to a fishing forum/site that talks about ethics, sporting, and so forth? Probably not. And if so, how can they be expected to understand why it's ok to snag sockeye in the Fraser but not springs in the Vedder? Sockeye dont bite well for even the most seasoned angler. Springs might not bite well for a new angler. It's a double standard to expect someone to snag under one's own ideals. Either you have snagging in angling, or you dont. Sadly, we have snagging in angling and is anyone really surprised at the result?

Sure, more regulations sound like a waste thanks to the lack of enforcement, but it IS a step in the right direction. At least now, this problem has been identified as ILLEGAL. Let's not cut off our noses to spite our face. If we can get a law to help deal with this (heck, just simply edit the definition for snagging in the regulatons!) it will help. Why hasnt a law been brought in Ive heard asked? How many have asked/pressured for it?

A bag limit is also going to be needed like Nicol said. The number of fish can be debated, but at least then it may help get the meat anglers off the river.

There's probably going to be negatives in the steps required to combat the problem identified in this thread. But before we scrap an idea, ask ourselves, how much worse can we make it?

I hope my ramble is taken well and as intended; a free and respectful sharing of ideas. I touch on snagging/flossing several times, but by no means do I intend to debate with someone's choice to do it for sockeye (as Im assume no one supports flossing the Vedder?). It was purely used as MY opinion and examples of ideas needed to address the problems in this thread; guys snagging fish in the Vedder River.