Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: strobes on July 29, 2015, 05:48:05 PM
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First I'd like to say let's keep this a mature conversation.
I was wondering what some others people thoughts are on the baiting and killing of Cecil the lion. We are all fisherman here and I'm sure we have all killed fish for numerous personal reason such as food or to mount. But for the most part we all fish legally and with in the regulations. What are your thoughts on this senseless killing of a beautiful animal whose species is threatened?
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lions being an exoticc animal should not be killed unless is for survival i mean would you kill an orca or a dolphin ?
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Is a crappy deal all around.
I don't support trophy hunting but its something that is legal .
Not sure of the details about this Lion hunt other than what we are being fed by the press but I think the Dentist is getting a bad wrap here considering he paid dearly to go on this hunt to begin with.
He probably wasn't aware that they lured this animal out of the Park only to be shot with a crossbow.
If he was aware then my opinion of him changes dramatically.
Either way he is going to have a tough go of it for the next while.
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Is a crappy deal all around.
I don't support trophy hunting but its something that is legal .
Not sure of the details about this Lion hunt other than what we are being fed by the press but I think the Dentist is getting a bad wrap here considering he paid dearly to go on this hunt to begin with.
He probably wasn't aware that they lured this animal out of the Park only to be shot with a crossbow.
If he was aware then my opinion of him changes dramatically.
Either way he is going to have a tough go of it for the next while.
if you google any thing for a trophy hunting site in those areas you will be well informed that they bait and drug more of the animals to get you a controlled kill and ensure your saftey being as he used a cross bow he would have to have alot of time to set up a shot so he knew damn well that the lion was baited but that aside as much as its is frowned at you are right areas of the world it is still legal to hunt endangered species
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I must say I dont agree with trophy hunting. However, at least the money generated by these activities could save hundreds of animals from being poached.
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lions being an exoticc animal should not be killed unless is for survival i mean would you kill an orca or a dolphin ?
To some a Moose is exotic.
Bad comparison to a orca or dolphin. Maybe a better one would be a griz hunt.
I have mixed feelings about trophy hunts but if they are legal they are legal.
The dentist has in the past been charged with poaching from what I hear.
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As a hunter, I don't agree with trophy hunting. I also disagree with the method of shooting the lion with a bow and allowing it to suffer for 40 hours before finishing him off with a rifle.
The thing that really bothers me is that the world is up in arms about a lion being killed, while literally millions of people in the same part of the world are starving to death. Why do we care so much for a lion, but don't bat an eye at the millions of people who die from preventable causes...?
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I do not agree but lions are shot and killed almost every day. Where were the masses of people protesting and complaining 2 weeks ago ? where were the facebook pictures and profile updates last week or for the past 10 years on social media? what about the other animals that are killed everyday almost the exact same way, until the news puts it on TV and social media, no one even bats an eye... but announce it publically and make it headline news and the sheep will follow... bahhh
"breaking news" fisherman lures ancient fish in with specially designed bait to puncture a large hook in its mouth, only to drag it around the river for multiple hours and then be clubbed over the head with a rock" and the world goes nuts...
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--A friend did some..what we call... trophy hunting while living in Africa.
--He used guides from a village near where he lived. Basically the whole village was supported by the legal hunts.
--All of the meat went to the village...except for a ceremonial meal. He also was able to purchase tanned hide...again prepared by the village.
--They also pay a game enhancement fee that goes to the protection of habitat. This allows villagers to purchase alternate fuel. If they don''t get this they go out and cut down and burn anything that is available.
--His justification being that if he did not pay to hunt the animal... the villagers would still have to kill it for their own food... plus cut down trees and vegitation in the area to live. By paying them for a legal hunt the animal gave much needed value added revenue that was kept and used in the local area.
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As a hunter, I don't agree with trophy hunting. I also disagree with the method of shooting the lion with a bow and allowing it to suffer for 40 hours before finishing him off with a rifle.
Thats just a bad shot on the hunters behalf, i bow hunt and i will not make a shot unless im 110% certain it will hit its mark.
Bow hunting is a very ethical form of hunting when done right. But mistakes do happen and it happens every year around here with every species in BC. Imagine if someone was to post up a deer wounded by a hunters arrow, suffered for days in the forest and died as said hunter could not find his animal, or shot too far back and took 3 days to die from a gut shot. The world would go nuts and all hunters would be in the line of fire.
Last year i posted a pic of a small spike buck i shot with my bow, i had people tearing into me left right and center. Saying how inhumane and why would you shoot it with an arrow and such. When... that deer went 7 yards and lasted 15 seconds. The one i got with my gun went 140 yards and lasted 3-5 minutes.... both perfect shots.
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Cecil was found beheaded so you can't say that the village got any thing from it he hires 2 guides from a website they got out of jail on 1000 dollar bonds he made an apology when the baited a lion out of a national park ........ now how does that help.the region
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I should clarify - I am not at all against bow hunting. I think it's an ethical way to hunt and like all hunting - a bad shot is way worse than no shot at all.
I meant that luring the lion out of the protected zone and then shooting it. A bad shot on his behalf resulted in 40 hours of suffering.
Most people who don't hunt and fish are incredibly ignorant of how food ends up in our grocery stores and on our plates. I would argue that a clean and quick kill from a hunter is way more ethical than industrial farming. At least with game hunting the animals are wild and free and going about their normal life. Incidents like this do nothing but harm to the image of hunting as the vast majority of hunters and not trophy hunters, but hunt to eat (and enjoy the whole process, which still results in the whole animal being used)
The reality is if we are going to eat meat, an animal has to die.
quote author=Gone_Fishin_ link=topic=38256.msg359856#msg359856 date=1438354456]
Thats just a bad shot on the hunters behalf, i bow hunt and i will not make a shot unless im 110% certain it will hit its mark.
Bow hunting is a very ethical form of hunting when done right. But mistakes do happen and it happens every year around here with every species in BC. Imagine if someone was to post up a deer wounded by a hunters arrow, suffered for days in the forest and died as said hunter could not find his animal, or shot too far back and took 3 days to die from a gut shot. The world would go nuts and all hunters would be in the line of fire.
Last year i posted a pic of a small spike buck i shot with my bow, i had people tearing into me left right and center. Saying how inhumane and why would you shoot it with an arrow and such. When... that deer went 7 yards and lasted 15 seconds. The one i got with my gun went 140 yards and lasted 3-5 minutes.... both perfect shots.
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Why is everyone saying this was a legal hunt? Or villagers going to kill this animal anyway for food? There is no hunting on these sanctuaries. There's a reason why it was lured away. There's a reason why the landowner neighboring the sanctuary is being charged.
Tourists and going on a safari are excellent ways to stimulate an economy.
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It's very sad that this senseless killing of an animal occurred.
This group of poachers lured this creature out of a protected park and baited Cecil to a killing location.
Even at that, the kill was not clean, and this poor animal suffered needlessly for almost 4 days.
What's even more unfortunate, is that these types of situations give all hunters a bad name.
Legal or not, a true hunter would not have participated in such activitity.
These individuals, and others who find enjoyment in this form of killing are POACHERS, not hunters.
Big difference.
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http://news.yahoo.com/lion-zimbabweans-ask-amid-global-cecil-circus-140822692.html
Some perspective on the situation.
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--A friend did some..what we call... trophy hunting while living in Africa.
--He used guides from a village near where he lived. Basically the whole village was supported by the legal hunts.
--All of the meat went to the village...except for a ceremonial meal. He also was able to purchase tanned hide...again prepared by the village.
--They also pay a game enhancement fee that goes to the protection of habitat. This allows villagers to purchase alternate fuel. If they don''t get this they go out and cut down and burn anything that is available.
--His justification being that if he did not pay to hunt the animal... the villagers would still have to kill it for their own food... plus cut down trees and vegitation in the area to live. By paying them for a legal hunt the animal gave much needed value added revenue that was kept and used in the local area.
Skaha is bang on. Don't take any of the BS by the media as gospel. There is a lot of misinformation out there about many of the hunts that go on and as weird as it is actually protects some of the population of these animals. As far as this particular case maybe he is a piece of garbage and there are illegalities to how it all went down but I will reserve judgment until the witch hunt is over and the dust settles.
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--A friend did some..what we call... trophy hunting while living in Africa.
--He used guides from a village near where he lived. Basically the whole village was supported by the legal hunts.
--All of the meat went to the village...except for a ceremonial meal. He also was able to purchase tanned hide...again prepared by the village.
--They also pay a game enhancement fee that goes to the protection of habitat. This allows villagers to purchase alternate fuel. If they don''t get this they go out and cut down and burn anything that is available.
--His justification being that if he did not pay to hunt the animal... the villagers would still have to kill it for their own food... plus cut down trees and vegitation in the area to live. By paying them for a legal hunt the animal gave much needed value added revenue that was kept and used in the local area.
Or, they could participate in the sustainable industry of safari tourism where many hundreds of people can see the same animals over and over. This would bring in more money in the long run, resulting in better living conditions for all.
Kenya is an example of how well that is working, so the "bringing in trophy killers is GOOD for the animals" argument is a bit of a straw man.
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Will wait till all the facts come out. But I have a question. What about Jericho?
The reason I raise that question is that there were initial report that the sibling of Cecil had also been killed by a hunter this week. This whole thing has become a media circus.
By the way Jericho is still alive. This lion also wears a collar and his movement has been tracked by researchers this week.
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If you read into it more they know Cecils brother was killed during a pride fight for land
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The outrage is not because he was a lion, lions are killed legally often in Africa. There are many reasons people are outraged.
One BIG reason the world is outraged is that this was not an every day lion. This Lion was tagged with a radio transmitter collar around his neck and used for research purposes to track movements, range, among other important conservation data and has been tracked since 2008 as part of the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit. Any good hunter knows you do not kill any animal with a collar, the animals have these for a reason. I am not a hunter myself but accidentally killing a collared animal MAY happen, I have no idea myself, but hiding it instead of telling the authorities shows the type of people the hunter/guides are...unethical.
As for Cecil being just another lion, killing a male lion has shown to have grave consequences for the pride, and they are now at the mercy of rival prides, which may very well kill off the entire Cecil pride to eliminate competition/gain territory. Yes,this type of situation may happen in the wild during fights between rival lions or because of legal hunts but this particular case is caused by poaching.
This was not a legal hunt, it was baited out of a nationally protected park. It does not matter if you agree or disagree with trophy hunting. If it is legal it is legal. However; if you bait a grizzly bear out of a national park in Canada there would be severe punishment , possibly imprisonment and major fines, possibly bans from hunting etc.
One of the guides and the landowner are facing charges of poaching.
As for the article referring to "what lion?" claiming zimbabweans don't care, they asked the information minister... usually not very up to date on details involving endangered species or the environment...ask the right people. If Zimbabweans did not care the Environment minister would not be calling for the USA to extradite the dentist to face charges. "We are appealing to the responsible authorities for his extradition to Zimbabwe.” Environment Minister Ms. Muchinguri also said that Dr. Palmer’s use of a crossbow and arrow to shoot the lion before eventually killing him with a gun had breached Zimbabwe’s hunting rules.
The Dentist in question is not an ethical legal hunter, records show In 2006, Palmer received a year’s probation and a $3,000 fine after he pleaded guilty to illegally killing a black bear in Wisconsin.
Like I said, it does not matter if one supports or dissagrees with trophy hunting, the outrage is or at least should be over the issues I stated above. Lions are killed in Africa a lot legally, this one was not and was a vital source of information for conservation as well as a huge tourist draw which brought vital money into the economy.This would not be a big issue if the dentist had been in a legal hunt, and had no previous record for poaching
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Or, they could participate in the sustainable industry of safari tourism where many hundreds of people can see the same animals over and over. This would bring in more money in the long run, resulting in better living conditions for all.
Kenya is an example of how well that is working, so the "bringing in trophy killers is GOOD for the animals" argument is a bit of a straw man.
--I'm talking selective harvest not full scale slaughter. My friend also has a camera and has many "shots" that did not result in the killing of an animal. Anyone that fishes is in effect participating in a selective harvest and even C&R guys result in the demise of some animals. Maybe we should only fish with a camera as well.... not that there is anything wrong with that.
--The way game is managed in the area he hunted is like a quota. The village has a quota with specific regulation on the number of animals, age class etc. that they are allowed. In return the wild animals get acces to occupy areas that would in the past have domestic livestock. In essence they turned over their legal grazing areas to expand wild animal protected areas.
--When these areas were being grazed with domestic animals the herdsmen were allowed to kill any wild animal that threatened their herd.
--Selective harvest is also sustainable... and where there are limited resources it is a way to manage a healthy population.
--I am for sure in favour of having some areas managed/protected no hunting allowed and in as natural a settng a possible
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--I'm talking selective harvest not full scale slaughter. My friend also has a camera and has many "shots" that did not result in the killing of an animal. Anyone that fishes is in effect participating in a selective harvest and even C&R guys result in the demise of some animals. Maybe we should only fish with a camera as well.... not that there is anything wrong with that.
--The way game is managed in the area he hunted is like a quota. The village has a quota with specific regulation on the number of animals, age class etc. that they are allowed. In return the wild animals get acces to occupy areas that would in the past have domestic livestock. In essence they turned over their legal grazing areas to expand wild animal protected areas.
--When these areas were being grazed with domestic animals the herdsmen were allowed to kill any wild animal that threatened their herd.
--Selective harvest is also sustainable... and where there are limited resources it is a way to manage a healthy population.
--I am for sure in favour of having some areas managed/protected no hunting allowed and in as natural a settng a possible
you are missing the point that they baited a lion out of a protection zone to kill and keep just the head are you going to take a sturgeon to a zone and kill it snd keep just the head no why is this different
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you are missing the point that they baited a lion out of a protection zone to kill and keep just the head are you going to take a sturgeon to a zone and kill it snd keep just the head no why is this different
Skaha is talkng about his friend not the dentist.
As for those of you who are saying its not a legal hunt, I have news for you.
There is no such thing as an illegal hunt or a legal hunt. A hunt is the legal harvesting of an animal.
Poaching is illegal harvesting.
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--That is correct... I don't mind hunting... I don't condone poaching.
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Tourists and going on a safari are excellent ways to stimulate an economy.
Yet another myth made up by the anti hunting crowd.
Eco tourism and photo safaris only work in very very specific situations and locations. The anti bear hunting crowd claim bear viewing brings in more conservation $ than hunting. Yet their study is based on a few square Km of the highest bear density in bc (knight inlet in the great bear rainforest). Do you really think a German tourist will pay 1000's to go to the kootenays and go 2 weeks not seeing a bear? Would the same person take 4 charter flights round Mozambique to sleep in a tent by a mosquito infested swamp just to see a buffalo?
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I think this is a very bad scenario to judge "trophy" hunting or hunting in general. What do people mean when they talk about trophy hunting? It's not specifically about shooting lions or grizzlies for mounts only. I don't hunt but I am ok with hunting. There may be some issues around hunting large carnivores but trophy hunting for a large prime specimen where the meat is also take and consumed is as sporting as general subsistence hunting.
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Yet another myth made up by the anti hunting crowd.
Eco tourism and photo safaris only work in very very specific situations and locations. The anti bear hunting crowd claim bear viewing brings in more conservation $ than hunting. Yet their study is based on a few square Km of the highest bear density in bc (knight inlet in the great bear rainforest). Do you really think a German tourist will pay 1000's to go to the kootenays and go 2 weeks not seeing a bear? Would the same person take 4 charter flights round Mozambique to sleep in a tent by a mosquito infested swamp just to see a buffalo?
No one here is preaching anything close to 'anti-hunting'. The conservation efforts in Canada are vastly superior to those of other nations where bear tags are limited and coincide with bear populations that are ever changing. The rules are different when you can pay off officials and everyone else to kill an endangered species.
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No one here is preaching anything close to 'anti-hunting'. The conservation efforts in Canada are vastly superior to those of other nations where bear tags are limited and coincide with bear populations that are ever changing. The rules are different when you can pay off officials and everyone else to kill an endangered species.
I keep hearing people using these terms Threatened/Endangered However WWF doesnt have lions listed on their list at all.
https://www.worldwildlife.org/species-categories/big-cats/species/directory
Intrestingly I did find one site that listed them as Vunerable due to a chance of inbreeding and Isolated Prides. However where Cecil was shot is considered to have an avg of 30,000 lions, bewtween estimated 16500 -47000, with 49 total lions taken as trophies in 2013 and exported. Lets take another Avg of $50,000 per hunt and say thats $2,450,000 going into Africa.
Now what people are saying is that this Population of lions is to low to allow Trophy hunting to continue with 49 killed out of a estimated 30,000. According to the Same Red list which is IUCN White Sturgeon in the Fraser River have an estimated 22,000. But yet no one has a propblem with the catch and release fishery taking place here. Many argue that catch and release fishing stress fish to the point of exhaustion which results in death. Do you think that Mortality from catch & release on sturgeon is anywhere near 49?
http://www.iucn.org/knowledge/tools/databases/
Now if you want to talk Ethics according to the Eco Nuts that pushing this Cecil issue. Trophy hunters are more Humane than Catch and release fisherman. In their Eyes your hooking a fish in the face for your enjoyment and fun causing stress and harm to the Fish. Whereas Trophy Hunters try to end their hunt in a quick kill. Not so in this case but this comes across to me as a poacher anyways, Im not defending his actions at all.
On another note I also hear alot of guys say " Im a hunter and Idont support trophy hunting" but then see a lot these same guys participate in 4 point only, Full curl, 6 point bull, 10 point bull, These are vastly trophy seasons. Just because you harvest and eat them doesnt mean your not a trophy hunter, if you ever took a picture with a dead animal or kept its parts asmemory Sorry bud thats a Trophy. Theres fish photos all over this site and any eco nut would consider that a trophy too.
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Here is an article from an individual about the aftermath of Cecil the Lion's killing,and the longterm effects it could have on the region.
https://www.oximity.com/user/Dr.-Rosie-Clooney-1.
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I keep hearing people using these terms Threatened/Endangered However WWF doesnt have lions listed on their list at all.
https://www.worldwildlife.org/species-categories/big-cats/species/directory
Intrestingly I did find one site that listed them as Vunerable due to a chance of inbreeding and Isolated Prides. However where Cecil was shot is considered to have an avg of 30,000 lions, bewtween estimated 16500 -47000, with 49 total lions taken as trophies in 2013 and exported. Lets take another Avg of $50,000 per hunt and say thats $2,450,000 going into Africa.
Now what people are saying is that this Population of lions is to low to allow Trophy hunting to continue with 49 killed out of a estimated 30,000. According to the Same Red list which is IUCN White Sturgeon in the Fraser River have an estimated 22,000. But yet no one has a propblem with the catch and release fishery taking place here. Many argue that catch and release fishing stress fish to the point of exhaustion which results in death. Do you think that Mortality from catch & release on sturgeon is anywhere near 49?
http://www.iucn.org/knowledge/tools/databases/
Now if you want to talk Ethics according to the Eco Nuts that pushing this Cecil issue. Trophy hunters are more Humane than Catch and release fisherman. In their Eyes your hooking a fish in the face for your enjoyment and fun causing stress and harm to the Fish. Whereas Trophy Hunters try to end their hunt in a quick kill. Not so in this case but this comes across to me as a poacher anyways, Im not defending his actions at all.
On another note I also hear alot of guys say " Im a hunter and Idont support trophy hunting" but then see a lot these same guys participate in 4 point only, Full curl, 6 point bull, 10 point bull, These are vastly trophy seasons. Just because you harvest and eat them doesnt mean your not a trophy hunter, if you ever took a picture with a dead animal or kept its parts asmemory Sorry bud thats a Trophy. Theres fish photos all over this site and any eco nut would consider that a trophy too.
I vote catch and release Lion hunting
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I vote catch and release Lion hunting
I'll call up a pharma company, need to get my hands on a supply of lion sleeping drugs.
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My last say on this subject. Taken from another site but too good not to post on here:
https://webmail2.telus.net/service/home/~/?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=34882&part=2
RIP "Gary the gazelle".