Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Steelhawk on February 11, 2010, 02:23:22 AM

Title: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Steelhawk on February 11, 2010, 02:23:22 AM

The Vedder is our prime steelhead river in the Lower Mainland where the population is most concentrated. Yet the steellhead fishing is dismal compared to the Stamp. Why should this be? Fishery folks, how do you justify such a poor stocking of steelhead in the Vedder compared to the Stamp? We are not even trying to compare to American rivers where 20+ hookups per day is common. Most Vedder steelheaders will be happy with 1 or 2 hookups per day. It is a shame that fishing reports on the Vedder steelhead are consistently dismal. And yet the Stamp, the prime steelhead river of the island, seems to be full of steelheads. Ironnogin just reports that 25 steelheads by 4 rods in 3 hours. It makes me wonder why Vedder steelheaders often go skunked repeatedly. Why does it have to be like this? I mean, if the population density in the Lower Mainland reflects in the bigger number of licensed fishermen here, why don't fishery folks put more resources in stocking the most important steelhead and salmon river of the Lower Mainland where the population is? If the Vedder can have steelhead fishing like the Stamp or even better like the American rivers, I don't mind paying for a special stamp or tag for the privilege to fish the Vedder (much like a classified water concept). What do you guys think?

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: troutbreath on February 11, 2010, 07:21:58 AM

We have better Carp,Bass and Bluegill fishing. ;D

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Eagleye on February 11, 2010, 07:52:58 AM

Quote from: Steelhawk on February 11, 2010, 02:23:22 AM

The Vedder is our prime steelhead river in the Lower Mainland where the population is most concentrated. Yet the steellhead fishing is dismal compared to the Stamp. Why should this be? Fishery folks, how do you justify such a poor stocking of steelhead compared to the Stamp. We are not even trying to compared to American rivers. It is a shame that fishing reports on the Vedder steelhead are consistently dismal. And yet the Stamp seem to be full of steelheads. Ironnogin just reports that 25 steelheads by 4 rods in 3 hours. It makes me wonder why Vedder steelheaders often go skunked repeatedly. Why does it have to be like this? I mean, if the population density reflects in the bigger number of licensed fishermen in the Lower Mainland, why don't fishery folks put more resources in stocking the most important steelhead and salmon river of the Lower Mainland where the population is? If the Vedder can have steelhead fishing like the Stamp or even better like the American rivers, I don't mind paying special stamp or tag for the privilege to fish the Vedder (much like a classified water concept). Why do you guys think?

An increase in hatchery production of steelhead on the Vedder would be nice if it is determined that it is to the benefit to the stock and anglers but lets not forget about the Capilano and Seymour rivers whose steelhead populations are dismally low and located so close to the city. It would be nice to stock these rivers to provide more options when it comes to fishing thus dispersing anglers and improving the fishing experience. Especially on the Cap since before the Dam was built it sustained one of the best steelhead runs around but now the runs are dismally low due to lack of spawning habitat and drastic river fluctuations.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: GENERAL-SHERMAN on February 11, 2010, 08:00:37 AM

there is more accessible water on the vedder , and more fisherman by FAR. there are jets running the river getting access to all these fish on the stamp. the stamp fish also come in earlier and there are summers with them. Iron Nog was fishing the falls and the fish pile up in there, summers and winters, some have been in there a while, it seems now they all race to get to the falls. Besides the falls or in a jet, your tough to find a lot of access on foot and numbers can be similar to the vedder. the stamp hatchery pumps out a lot more hatchery fish than the vedder. the size of the fish also seems to be smaller too. there can be days on the vedder where you can hit 20 fish between a few guys but not as many in recent years.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Rodney on February 11, 2010, 01:38:21 PM

Number of hatchery juvenile steelhead released.

Year	Chilliwack River	Stamp River	Somass River
2006	113,825	11,303	90,353
2005	116,641	16,916	79,390

It's a pity that some don't bother to research before whining year after year.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: IronNoggin on February 11, 2010, 01:57:51 PM

Quote from: Rodney on February 11, 2010, 01:38:21 PM

It's a pity that some don't bother to research before whining year after year.

aYup! :D

Sorry if I gave the impression the particular day I posted about was somehow "normal" over here! Anything BUT!
Just one of those times when the stars, for whatever reason, all aligned.
This year alone I have been out a dozen times for nada. And I know well a handful of good rods that report the same and worse. Don't hear much about that in the way of reports - few bother to give notice it was poor or dead fishing. Myself included btw.
Many day I've seen loads of Folks working it here, and generally have a pleasant chat. Most report limited success. And most wish there were "more to go around" translating to "more releases".
Nothing different I suppose than what one would here on the Vedder, including the "I wish there were fewer fishermen" line.

It's steelheading. Success is often a tough and elusive proposition. But it VERY much does make the "good" days stick out in your mind. Guess that's why I and my Buddies continue to pound the bush and banks, even after multiple days of no-show.

Don't really know if the answer is more releases. And even if it were, in these days of funding rollbacks, that ain't too likely to be forthcoming. The US situation is different than ours in that they pump massive dollars into their production. Simply not large enough on the political radar to make that happen here methinks.

So, guess what I'm saying is ENJOY what we have! ;D
Things could be MUCH worse!

Cheers,
Nog

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: fishstick on February 11, 2010, 05:26:22 PM

LOL, complaining about a river that recieves 90,000-120,000 steelhead smolts a year?, you should try fishing pretty much any other river in the lower mainland, the season is just getting going, perhaps the lack of 20 fish days should give you pause to wonder what is going on beyond hatchery plants, because there is one hell of a lot more wrong with todays rivers than this. There is also the underdisscussed, underrated quality of luck in steelheading, just because lots of guys aren't catching fish doesn't mean there is no fish, one only needs to look at this past coho season for that. you guys better not knock what you got because I can tell you it's pretty dire in a lot of other rivers beyond the stamp and vedder. There aren't many rivers that see returns on that scale and I'm pretty sure there wouldnt be near the opportunity to fish for this fine species if it weren't for the vedder particularly taking pressure off of the smaller systems, seriously there were only 49 steelhead back to the little campbell all of last year, and you guys think that lack of 20 fish days is a problem?
I think a little perspective is in order as to how lucky we are as fisherman to have rivers like the vedder

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Randofish on February 11, 2010, 09:33:07 PM

A few years back I got 36 steelies in 2days guided.
The year after that I got 2 for 2 days guided.
Gotta be lucky to be lucky.
Thats why its called fishin and not catchin.
Keep casting and take the bad days with the good days.
Nog... a few more guests this weekend ;)
Hope it works out.
Rando

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: bederko on February 11, 2010, 11:05:34 PM

In the States, the hatcheries are funded by the dams. Their governments forced the power companies to actually put some money back into the rivers that they affected (not sure why BC Hydro has gotten off scott-free?). They are pumping out millions of steelhead, not 100,000 like here in BC. The province has a "wild" fish first policy on our Lower Mainland rivers, that's why the hatchery numbers aren't huge going into the Cap or Seymour, there are still some wild fish left. In general, hatchery steelhead in Region 2 come from wild parents (there are exceptions - which I'm getting to), if there aren't many wild fish - there won't be many hatchery fish produced... Unfortunately there isn't enough money (see Olympics/health care/education) to actually do any assessment of our steelhead populations. In essence, the only data the province gathers anymore is the punch card that is mailed out randomly. As far as I know, the Seymour is the only river that is float counted anymore and there used to be many done every year (ie: Vedder, Chehalis, Alouette, Coquihalla, etc...). In my opinion this is a shame but I'm not quite sure what we could do about it...

Now, the only river in our area that has actually been deemed a "hatchery" river - no remaining wild population - is the Stave. Broodstock is collected from hatchery females returning to the Stave crossed with milt from wild Vedder males. This run was started using donor Vedder river hatchery winter runs and as such they can still be used for brood. If you believe that all it takes to have great steelhead fishing is to produce more hatchery steelhead to catch then this would be your opportunity. The Stave currently receives about 23,000 smolts each year - not very many. The opportunity is there to push that number up significantly.

My questions are: - Do you fish for steelhead at the Stave? Why or why not?
- Would you fish for steelhead at the Stave if you had a good chance at catching fish?

Judging by the number of people pounding this river for Chum, I would guess that there is a lot of potential to direct some of the pressure from the other steelhead systems in the region to this "hatchery" river at this time of year. It's definitely closer to home for many people who currently leave the city to hunt for steelhead. Let's hear what people have to say:

- Do you have any other ideas for improving steelhead fishing in the Lower Mainland?
- Are more hatchery fish really the answer?
- Do we really want more "combat steelheading" which may be the result of increased success?

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Coho Cody on February 11, 2010, 11:10:29 PM

what most do not understand is the two completely different locations of these systems. one of the west coast of the rock, the other west coast of the mainland. now already, the stamp has the advantage being where it is located, over the vedder due to the fact that the vedder fish must travel further to reach the river. put into account these two systems are not only in very different locations, but are also completely different physically, and contain different fish. Access is hard on the stamp, creating less opportunities for the shore anglers as opposed to the vedder. Not only that, but the amount of people the fish the vedder compared to the stamp, just cant be compared. most people clunk hatchery fish anyways so theres another reason. A barrier for those stamp fish is the falls itself. Lots of winter fish will not go past, and just hang out in the falls and slowly drop back, creating even more opportunities at them. why is the vedder so busy over the stamp? population. not that hard to figure out here people.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Steelhawk on February 12, 2010, 01:04:28 AM

Quote from: bederko on February 11, 2010, 11:05:34 PM

In the States, the hatcheries are funded by the dams. Their governments forced the power companies to actually put some money back into the rivers that they affected (not sure why BC Hydro has gotten off scott-free?). They are pumping out millions of steelhead, not 100,000 like here in BC. The province has a "wild" fish first policy on our Lower Mainland rivers, that's why the hatchery numbers aren't huge going into the Cap or Seymour, there are still some wild fish left. In general, hatchery steelhead in Region 2 come from wild parents (there are exceptions - which I'm getting to), if there aren't many wild fish - there won't be many hatchery fish produced... Unfortunately there isn't enough money (see Olympics/health care/education) to actually do any assessment of our steelhead populations. In essence, the only data the province gathers anymore is the punch card that is mailed out randomly. As far as I know, the Seymour is the only river that is float counted anymore and there used to be many done every year (ie: Vedder, Chehalis, Alouette, Coquihalla, etc...). In my opinion this is a shame but I'm not quite sure what we could do about it...

Now, the only river in our area that has actually been deemed a "hatchery" river - no remaining wild population - is the Stave. Broodstock is collected from hatchery females returning to the Stave crossed with milt from wild Vedder males. This run was started using donor Vedder river hatchery winter runs and as such they can still be used for brood. If you believe that all it takes to have great steelhead fishing is to produce more hatchery steelhead to catch then this would be your opportunity. The Stave currently receives about 23,000 smolts each year - not very many. The opportunity is there to push that number up significantly.

My questions are: - Do you fish for steelhead at the Stave? Why or why not?
   - Would you fish for steelhead at the Stave if you had a good chance at catching fish?

Judging by the number of people pounding this river for Chum, I would guess that there is a lot of potential to direct some of the pressure from the other steelhead systems in the region to this "hatchery" river at this time of year. It's definitely closer to home for many people who currently leave the city to hunt for steelhead. Let's hear what people have to say:

   - Do you have any other ideas for improving steelhead fishing in the Lower Mainland?
   - Are more hatchery fish really the answer?
   - Do we really want more "combat steelheading" which may be the result of increased success?

Thanks for the analysis and thank you Rod for posting the figures. I apologize for not checking the figures out. But there is no need for verbal attack of a good intent. Am I wining for myself? NO sir. I am still eating sashimi of my 15lber. 1 fish in 4 trips is not bad for me and there will be a few more fish before I am done this season. I don't need that many sashimi fish. I am voicing this more for the average joe or newbie fishermen. Why they have to face such dismal fishing compared to the old days? So the two systems are both bad, and nothing like the old days in stocking. But does this make it okay? Why so negative of some one voicing a valid concern. The number of empty trips for even good steelheaders is mounting years after years at the Vedder. Back in the 80's and early 90's, filling one's card is not unusual even for weekender Vancouverites. This is the thing of the past. May be I should ask why the Canadian steelheaders are often skunked compared to the Americans. I posted in fishbc.com also the same concern and all I met are scorns and apathy. Is that the attitude of us Canadian steelheaders? When even voicing the concern of the dismal fishing in the Vedder is met with criticism within the fishing brotherhood, what can we expect from our government officials? Expect more cuts in years to come until it may not be worthwhile to pursue fishing for the average joe fishermen. Leave the rivers to the elists who just don't want to see another souls ,fish or no fish.

To answer your question bedeko, I think the decision should be left to the fishermen on enhancement or not. The government should sell fishing tags for specific system and the fund should be used to enhance those systems. Those willing to pay the price to go for better fishing, be it combat fishing, will do so by buying the stamp/tag to fish the system. Those who prefer solitude in non-enhanced systems will get their space. So it is fair for all. That is something which can be contemplated if we want better fishing under limited government funding. If I can fish coho in the Cap like the fishing I saw in the Expo 86 years, I won't mind paying the $ extra to get the stamp and privlege to fish it. This is like buying a tag'/stamp to fish classified water for visitors. It is better to have some fishing choices to make then seeing more and more cuts and less and less fishing results. At least I can make that choice to fish or not to fish. ;D Another alternative is to have the government forcing Hydro and forest logging companies to pay up for ruining all these urban rivers which used to have terrific fishing. This way we have more fund for enhancement. Isn't that the reason for setting up hatcheries in the first place?

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: IronNoggin on February 12, 2010, 12:07:26 PM

Quote from: Randofish on February 11, 2010, 09:33:07 PM

Nog... a few more guests this weekend ;)
Hope it works out.

Me too Buddy, for their sake! Thanks for the well-wishes! ;D

SteelHawk - I apologize if I came off a little flippant in my original reply. Of course you have reason to be concerned with the results and reports you note. A few thoughts:

I do not think that the runs this year are late. In fact, most of the steelhead runs to the Island were early this year. We have witnessed amongst the earliest spawning of summer runs ever seen in the local system, and are now finding the odd winter run already running ripe. Couple that with reports from the more remote systems of early arrivals and the nearness of those fish to the spawn, and methinks we are looking at a rather early scenario coast-wide. How much of that applies to LML flows I am uncertain, but gut instinct would suggest their timing would likely be close to what we're seeing here.

Perhaps there is some problem related to the at-sea survival of last season's "missing" sockeye. If the steelhead that leave the Vedder follow the same migration route, just perhaps they are meeting with the same bottleneck out there that caused the sockeye population to nearly collapse.

Perhaps there was some other factor related to the hatchery and/or condition of the releases that should have fueled this year's returns.

Perhaps the amount of heavy pressure over a good many years have "educated" the Vedder fish to the point they no longer are aggressive once they enter the fresh water.

Only time will tell with all of those possibilities. It would be VERY interesting to determine just how many do return this year. Again I do not follow what happens over there very closely, so am unaware if any attempts are undertaken to determine those numbers. Can anyone enlighten??

Steelhead are largely in trouble pretty well coast-wide. Yes, there are exceptions, but that is exactly what they are: exceptions. Most of the "wild" systems are facing multiple problems such as those identified by Ian above. The only systems that consistently produce any real numbers have, for the past decade, largely been those operating under a hatchery augmentation regime. It would take some pretty determined and serious effort to turn these trends around. And, as I previously noted, the political will simply doesn't exist to do so. How to change that I do not know. Many (myself included) have tried various approaches, unfortunately at the end of the day with little result. And a great many have become so frustrated with banging their head against that wall over and over they have simply walked away in disgust. Walking away is obviously not the answer, but I do understand well the frustration.

You may have something here regarding increasing the user fees on particular systems. This could only work with the cooperation of the majority of anglers who fish those waters in conjunction with MOE. Even were such blanket endorsement to be secured, methinks you'd have to keep a constant and wary eye on the ProvGov - were they ever to see the additional funding this created as some sort of "cash cow" (and there have been MANY examples of this over time) in all likelihood they would strip away the well-intended funding for their own private agendas. But it is a thought worth pursuing. I'd suggest starting with your local MOE Biologists to determine just what the maximum number of smolts that the system could support might be, then the hatcheries to see just how feasible attaining that number might be. The prospect of bringing the "many thousands" you speak of on-line is a tad more daunting, but could be initiated with a well thought out publicity campaign. Given the Vedder is already a hatchery system, MOE may go along with increasing the number of releases, especially so were the costs to be borne by anglers rather than their own dwindling sources of funding.

Mighty big steps, but then again anything worth doing with regards to fishery resources pretty well is. Personally I do not think we will ever see seasons that are consistently "stellar". The deck is far to stacked against the steelhead at this point. Of course I hope I am wrong in this belief. And just perhaps in the case of the Vedder, you may have a starting point to begin to address the overall picture.

I am far to busy myself to take on the tasks outlined above, and far to removed from the LML as to be effective were I to try. Perhaps amongst those many anglers that ply the Vedder you will find not only support, but capable allies for the fight to come, for fight it will surely be. If and when it comes to addressing the overall picture for steelhead, I would gladly step up to bat again and help in any little way that I might be able. The forehead may be bruised, but it isn't broken just yet!

Good Luck with your investigations and hopefully eventual actions. Feel free to call on me anytime if there is something I can add from afar...

Cheers,
Nog

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: VAGAbond on February 12, 2010, 12:58:01 PM

100,000 or so steelhead are put into the Vedder and 1%, maybe 2% come back, There will be attrition all along the way but I wonder if something inexpensive might yield results. Other rivers have been enhanced by simply thowing a few sacks of fertilizer into the headwaters each year. Our fisheries biologists are well aware of this. Has it been considered, tried or rejected for the Chilliwack-Vedder? If it is just the cost in the way, lets pony up the few thousand $$ that would take. It could be a good project for a club.

My club, Vancouver Angling and Game is looking for a cause. We don't have many members or much money but a cause might change that.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Dave on February 12, 2010, 02:46:08 PM

Great post IronNoggin. One thing you may not know is MOE does not pay $.01 to raise these juvenile steelhead at Chilliwack hatchery. THe entire cost, an estimated $100k yearly, is paid by DFO. It is my understanding DFO is getting a bit pissed with paying this cost so I would be surprised if they would endorse an increased steelhead production.

I totally agree a user fee to fish the Vedder- Chilliwack is the only way to save what is left of this river and it's fish.

VAGAbond, a fertilization program is already underway on the Chilliwack.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Rodney on February 12, 2010, 02:50:06 PM

Quote from: Steelhawk on February 12, 2010, 01:04:28 AM

But there is no need for verbal attack of a good intent.

If my intent is to verbally attack, then I'd be questioning your intelligence for keep repeating the same thing without addressing the facts that are used to challenge your speculations. What is the point of posting the same rant in three different threads before starting a new thread of its own? It is poor posting ettiquette, just to get your point across without consideration of other users.

Repetition does not make one's point more correct.

Unlike IronNoggin who has the patience, I find it counter-productive to have a debate on something that is based on speculations and misinformation. It happens each year, Fraser sockeye, steelhead, instead of doing some background research on what actually happens, you come back with the same rhetorics each year, spreading what I would consider as propaganda among the so-called "fishing brotherhood" against those who have the background to manage the resource, just because you're not catching fish or allowed to catch what you want.

What would motivate me to expend an hour to address the false information is that people who are willing to learn on the website would walk away without being misinformed. So here goes.

Although funding by the Ministry of Environment changes from year to year, why people would keep saying "there's another funding cut" without providing numbers baffles me.

Despite of whatever cut people are suggesting, based on the juvenile steelhead stocking (http://www.canbcdw.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/ows/reports/releaseReport.asp?IDValue=107#Steelheadreleased%20fromChilliwack%20R), it has not changed at all since the 80s with the exception of 83 and 84.

Quote from: rides bike to work on February 11, 2010, 08:10:21 PM

And every year I hear about the vedder hatchery struggling with getting enough brude stock.

What struggle? The Chilliwack/Vedder Hatchery has had met its broodstock target each year. The collection is typicall put on hold halfway through the season, to avoid having too many early fish or too little late fish collected. So far this season, 30 fish have been collected and we are less than a month into the collection program.

So why is this year's catch, particularly the wild capture rate, seemingly poorer than other years when the number of hatchery juveniles released has remains pretty consistent? Why would funding cut influence this return? It doesn't. Flood mortality during its brood year.

Pumping more hatchery fish into the river to accommodate those who have been paying the so-called increasing licence fee (by the way, licence fee has not increased in the last five years, it should)? Believe it or not, fish belong to the people of Canada, not just those in the fishing brotherhood. Biologists have the mandate to preserve genetic diversity of steelhead population in each watershed. Is it responsible for anglers to lobby for an increase of Chilliwack hatchery production at a risk of losing that diversity when we in fact do not have an estimate of the wild population. For what? Just so you can catch multiple fish like the good ol' days? Why should there be an expectation of 20+ steelhead per trip like what one would expect during the salmon season? The quality of the steelheading experience might be determined by quantity for some, but most would agree that they do it because the experience is different to what one may see during the salmon season. Do I want to target steelhead in the Chilliwack River as what I would experience at the put and take lake? No, but apparently some do. Slightly more fish would be nice, but have some consideration on the resource rather than yourself for once.

There are many other natural, uncontrollable factors that influence the recent decline of returns. The biggest one would be the unpredictable Pacific Ocean. People should keep in mind that the condition is cyclical, not a constant downward trend. Historic catch data of herring and other planktonic feeders from both sides of the Pacific have illustrated that. While it can be unfavourable for anadromous salmonids, it can be just as favourable in years to come. During years of low returns, shouldn't we be placing more emphasis on ensuring the survival of the remaining steelhead population instead of worrying about how little we are catching?

So, about those funding cuts and selfish fish managers.

Quote from: VAGAbond on February 12, 2010, 12:58:01 PM

100,000 or so steelhead are put into the Vedder and 1%, maybe 2% come back, There will be attrition all along the way but I wonder if something inexpensive might yield results. Other rivers have been enhanced by simply thowing a few sacks of fertilizer into the headwaters each year. Our fisheries biologists are well aware of this. Has it been considered, tried or rejected for the Chilliwack-Vedder? If it is just the cost in the way, lets pony up the few thousand $$ that would take. It could be a good project for a club.

My club, Vancouver Angling and Game is looking for a cause. We don't have many members or much money but a cause might change that.

VAGAbond, the Steelhead Society of BC would be the appropriate group to ask this. You can email Jason at jtonelli@pacificangler.ca as he is the president. Locally, the Chilliwack River Action Committee and the Fraser Valley Salmon Society are the two groups that have done projects on the Vedder River. You can contact David Lamson at dflamson@shaw.ca for the Chilliwack River Action Committee. Chris can answer your questions for the Fraser Valley Salmon Society.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Gooey on February 12, 2010, 02:55:18 PM

Just jumping in from the other thread so I dont know if this has been talked about above...

I wanted to point out that one HUGE difference in the stamp and vedder is the possible migration paths. Stamp fish enter and exit their natal stream on the WC of Vancouver Island and head north. I would guess that lots of the stocks from the fraser head up Georgia Straight ie the east coast of vancouver island...right past all the fish farms.

While I don't know the migration path of Georgia basin steelhead I did read that the harrison sockeye stocks head down around the bottom of the island and then up the WCVI where as other Fraser run sockey go up the inside (ECVI). Now correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt the harrison sockeye run quite healthy this year compared to the other fraser run stocks which were what 2 mil on and expected 12mil? the only differnece is the water ways paralleling the island (and the fishfarms on the inside passage). Interested to know how streams on VI feeding into Georgia Straight are doing?

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Rodney on February 12, 2010, 03:00:34 PM

Quote from: Gooey on February 12, 2010, 02:55:18 PM

Now correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt the harrison sockeye run quite healthy this year compared to the other fraser run stocks which were what 2 mil on and expected 12mil? the only differnece is the water ways paralleling the island (and the fishfarms on the inside passage).

The difference in returns of Mid/Upper Fraser and Harrison sockeye salmon is due to the fact that their juveniles enter the ocean in different years, therefore mortality rates of juveniles are different due to the difference in amount of feed available each each year.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: rides bike to work on February 12, 2010, 10:33:42 PM

Due to the resent reaction to my post on the other thread I wonder , is the opinion that the bait ban on island rivers is a sham, are the fishing reports from these rivers a sham?It seems to me even though the release of more steel head smolts on the vedder has not resulted in more returns .Member of the chilliwack river action commitee have even started to consider studies researching the return numbers of steel head due to the lack of official numbers over the years by our fisheries managers .Obviously the stocking is not working ,mabey because of ocean conditions ,mabey because of catching limits and enforcement of steel head smolts, mabey other resason that could be resolved by bait bans that have been succesful on the island ,I am open to any intelligent ideas not insults to my post lets work towards a better future.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Steelhawk on February 13, 2010, 12:58:21 AM

Rodney I have a lot of respect for you and what you do with this forum, and you have been a gracious host. I hope I have been nice to people here except those who bashed me unprovoked. I can understand we are two different fishermen. I respect your choices of your fishing inclination and I hope you respect mine. What I post below is a self defense of my position and if I offend you, I apologize. Any how, this is my last post on your forum and it wouldn't even matter if I get banned like Cammer, for this is your private domain afterall. There is no point to post here with a mod biased against me. After a few years posting here first as Funfish and now Steelhawk, I hope I have helped the newer fishermen in some way like many others here try to do. I hope I have been generous in sharing my little fishing knowledge. It has been a fun ride here. I hope I have not been a bad influence to other members. Thanks for the experience.

To me, posters here are not perfect. The multiple rants? You must be kidding. I was only casually mentioning the poor fishing on the Vedder in views of some dire reports here compared to those fishing the Stamp. I don't think I started those threads. I only threw in one post or two and if others jump on the point it was beyond my control. I only started this thread in this Fishing Issue section, as it is where it can be debated better. If it is considered unethical and selfish by you, obviously there is a lot of hidden resentment about me as a member here. I don't need some one to give me a grade on my intelligence or ethics. So it is time to say good bye. It is not worth all the squabble.

I try to avoid criticizing other members in my posts and I cheer others with their posted catch. I hope I have been more known as a peace maker and not a propagander spreader. I am not the most eloquent writer as I didn't learn English until 12. All my posts on Sockeyes were about fighting back the bashing of bb fiishermen and standing up to bfers who think we bbers are threatening the fish stock. And I speak up when I see the government failing its dutiies. This is a plural country where one can differ from others in their view of the government. If this were not so, why we have so many political parties with different points of views about the same issue. They argue to no ends in various levels of government daily. Regardless of what you say, steelhead stocking has gradually reduced over the years. The Stamp is now 1/4 of its highest #, and the Vedder about 1/2. You believe that this cut back was done for science. I believe that this was because we sport fishermen are the least vocal and politically inactive group to fight back budget cut. If science was the reason, why during the EXPO 86 years stockings were consistently high. That to me was because there was political will to use fishing as a way to promote tourism at the time. If stocking more fish would hurt fish diversity without doubt, why didn't scientists come out fighting this madness So I hope we can respectfully disagree on this.

I may not be a well informed and connected guy like you on fishing stats and regulations, but I believe I have much more actual experiences on fishing Vedder steelhead than you, and you don't even lower yourself to floss sockeye as we have on the sockeye bars. It is easy to criticize when it is not your favourite fishing. How do you criticize the heart and desire of Vedder steelheaders when you seldom participate? Likewise, I cannot criticize your intent in regards to spinning for bull trouts in Richmond. If you think that wishing catching a few more steelhead per trip or per season is a sin, then do we question your joy when you had a great day with the bulls and do we criticize you when you return against the next day wishing to repeat the same success. All fishermen like actions, yourself included. While your favoured fishing is mostly nearby your home, for catching our prize, most Vedder steelheaders need to drive long and spend $$$ on gas for an experience to connect with their target. What is wrong for them wishing to have better fishing if they have been skunked times after times on exhausting days of fishing, each of which can push the body to the limit of 8 to 10 hours, and mostly in unfriendly elements all winter through. Whoever thinking of 20+ day in the Vedder must be insane. It is only used to illustrate the point comparing with some American rivers. The reality is if they can have one hook up per day or every few trips it is already rewarding. Multiple hookups are only for dreamers nowadays. But it is not a sin for any fishermen to hope for this to happen, you included.

Your implication that these steelheaders are some greedy fishermen pushing their agenda of personal satisfaction while risking the steelhead resource is based on what? If the government can prove that the Vedder wild fish will be in trouble if we go back to former level of stocking, most steelheaders would not mind. Have you done some interviews on Vedder steelheaders with enough sample to say that we are a ruthless, selfish bunch? So isn't your attack on us based on your speculation too? I can tell you most conscientious steelheaders don't need a lecture about their attitude towards steelheading. Most know it is a hard battle for one bite in days and accept that. So far. Most including me appreciate the chance just to go to the outdoor in the thick of winter. Most would not do anything to risk hurting the wide stock. What have I done about fighting the government policy which may hurt the wild steelhead resource? This is a thread going on in fishbc where I related what I have done:
http://fishbcforum.com/index.php?showtopic=56873&st=0

As any good steelheaders will do, you chat with others about the fishing resullt to gauge where the hot actions are, and very often the dismal pictures emerged times after times. What is wrong to expect better fishing? Do you have to pound on them to death for such desire and give them the weight of the world that such desire may mean dire consequence to wild steelhead? If you don't mind me to be personal about your steelhead fishing, how often you have been there for the winter steelheads? How often you put in 8 to 10 hours per day bush walking the vedder just for one bite? This is not a fishing your are inclined to participate so it is easy to stand a distance to criticize those wishing to have better fishing. If bait ban is imposed on the Vedder, I am positive that most short floaters with bait would lobby the government with whatever reasons they can come up with. It is just the nature of man that when his favourite thing is threatened, he will do his best to fight or question it. So why bash Vedder steelheaders who think fishing should be enhanced better?

I hope I have not offended you. It is not my intent. I only try to defend my position and I apologize my past postings have been so offensive to you. I hope you have the big heart to not delete this post of mine, so others can understand my position. Good bye and thanks for running this great forum without much appreciation.

By the way, isn't the big show in town something? Proud to be a Canadian. Go Canada Go.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Rodney on February 13, 2010, 01:00:28 AM

Quote from: rides bike to work on February 12, 2010, 10:33:42 PM

is the opinion that the bait ban on island rivers is a sham, are the fishing reports from these rivers a sham?

Which riverS on the island are reported to be productive beside the Stamp River, where bait is allowed in part of the system? Which reports are you referring to?

For comparison on stock status and trend, here is a list of rivers. The first is the Chilliwack River, the rest are all rivers from the east coast of Vancouver Island. The information is obtained from the Greater Georgia Basin Steelhead Recovery Plan (http://www.bccf.com/steelhead/) (you can read the more detailed information by clicking on the region 1 and 2 maps in the main body of the website). Please point out which rivers seem to be doing better than the Chilliwack River.

River	Stock trend	Stock status
Chilliwack (Vedder) River	Stable	Routine Management
Keogh River	Relatively Stable at a Low Level	Extreme / Conservation Concern
Cluxewe River	In Decline	Conservation Concern
Nimpkish River	Relatively stable at a low level	Extreme / Conservation Concern
Kokish River	In Decline	Special Concern
Tsitika River	Stable at low level	Special Concern
Eve River	Likely Declining	Conservation Concern
Salmon River	Stable with some recovery	Routine Management
Amor de Cosmos Creek	Stable at a Low Level	Conservation Concern
Campbell River	In Decline	Extreme Conservation Concern
Quinsam River	In Decline	Conservation Concern
Oyster River	In Decline	Extreme Conservation Concern
Black Creek	In Decline	Extreme Conservation Concern
Puntledge River	In Decline	Extreme Conservation Concern
Trent and Tsable River	In Decline	Extreme Conservation Concern (Extirpated?)
Big Qualicum River	Relatively Stable at a Low Level	Extreme / Conservation Concern
Little Qualicum River	Relatively Stable at a Low Level	Extreme / Conservation Concern
Englishman River	Relatively Stable at a Low Level	Extreme / Conservation Concern
Nanaimo River	Relatively Stable at a Low Level	Extreme / Conservation Concern
Chemainus River	Relatively Stable at a Low Level	Extreme / Conservation Concern
Cowichan River	Relatively Stable at Moderate Abundance	Conservation Concern
Koksilah River	Relatively Stable at a low level	Conservation Concern

Quote from: rides bike to work on February 12, 2010, 10:33:42 PM

It seems to me even though the release of more steel head smolts on the vedder has not resulted in more returns... Obviously the stocking is not working ,mabey because of ocean conditions...

Which part of stocking is not exactly working? The objective is not to increase the steelhead population of the Chilliwack River watershed, the Ministry of Environment does not wish to see cross spawning between hatchery and wild strains. Is hatchery steelhead return on a downward trend? Not really, catch results have varied from year to year. While this year appears to be poor, anglers have reported excellent results in some recent years. Has catch per unit effort gone down for some anglers? Most likely, as it should not be a surprise when angling effort has increased while stocking amount has not.

What are the objectives of a bait ban in a hatchery augmented steelhead fishery?

Here is a temporal comparison of catch and effort in the Chilliwack River: http://www.bccf.com/steelhead/pdf/chilliwack-sha-2002.pdf

Here is a temporal comparison of catch and effort in the Squamish River, where bait ban is implemented: http://www.bccf.com/steelhead/pdf/squamish-sha-2002.pdf

Catch rates from both systems are neither increasing or decreasing. These data are up to 2002 and those who travel to the Squamish River to target steelhead such as myself would tell you that the solitude is very enjoyable but the catch numbers are dismal in recent years.

Stock size aside, stocks of all of these systems in the Greater Georgia Basin has one similarity. They are either stable or declining. Is bait ban a management measure that could effectively recover a stock?

What exactly is the "problem" with the Chilliwack River? It remains one of the most productive streams in this province. It also receives the highest fishing pressure in the province, but what does one expect when it is the most productive hatchery steelhead stream that has open access to over 2 million residents in Metro Vancouver?

If a bait ban is implemented while the stock remains augmented by the hatchery, then I can assure you that fishing pressure would remain the same and the usage of questionable fishing methods would be on the rise.

If a bait ban is implemented and hatchery augmentation ceases, then you would create a quality fishery where angling pressure would sharply decline because the fishery becomes catch and release only. At the same time, expect a sharp decline in the sale of steelhead conservation surcharge. Lower Mainland anglers would lose another fishery that provides them the opportunity to occasionally harvest a fresh fish or two to consume in the winter. Meanwhile, would the Chilliwack River wild steelhead population benefit? Perhaps, if capture rate drops, but without creating more suitable habitat for spawning and juvenile rearing (results of projects that are funded by steelhead conservation surcharge), then the stock status may just be stable.

I don't see myself as an advocate of bait usage because personally I at times enjoy fishing in rivers where a bait ban, catch and release are implemented because the lack of fishing pressure is very enjoyable. I also enjoy participating in the Chilliwack River fishery at times even though it is highly competitive and most of the time I end up empty handed due to a lack of experience and time.

This type of discussion is good, but one should realize that regardless how hard anglers try, there will always be some bias when they are making suggestions on how a fishery should be managed. This entire thread demonstrates that, including mine. This is why we have resource managers, who work with data, not assumptions.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Rodney on February 13, 2010, 01:14:39 AM

Quote from: Steelhawk on February 13, 2010, 12:58:21 AM

.

Like I said earlier, my intent is not to judge yours or others' intelligence or ethics. My only problem with what has been posted is the argument is based on speculations rather than concrete facts, which are used to paint a false picture on how fisheries are managed in this province.

If my concern on the forum is loss of readership and membership, then I'd just be quiet, edit and delete when it is necessary. Instead I will challenge one's opinion when I strongly believe it is wrong. If one chooses to leave when being challenged, that's fine. On a discussion forum where face to face interaction is absence, there's nothing personal. The information is presented, whether one chooses to believe one or the other, is beyond my control. As a moderator, I'm not here to sway opinions, but occasionally I want to participate too.

Cheers.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: VAGAbond on February 14, 2010, 08:30:52 PM

The chart shows ~15000 steelhead per year from the Chilliwack. Wow. I would have guessed more like 30/day for 120 day season resulting in <4000 as a maximum.

Rodney, your information on the VI rivers situation is very interesting. I often want this sort of information and can seldom find it. Could you post similar information on some of the other VI rivers: Caycuse, Nitinat, Quatse, Gold,Tsolum, Nahmint, Muchalat, Heber?

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Rodney on February 14, 2010, 10:20:56 PM

Quote from: VAGAbond on February 14, 2010, 08:30:52 PM

The chart shows ~15000 steelhead per year from the Chilliwack. Wow. I would have guessed more like 30/day for 120 day season resulting in <4000 as a maximum.

Rodney, your information on the VI rivers situation is very interesting. I often want this sort of information and can seldom find it. Could you post similar information on some of the other VI rivers: Caycuse, Nitinat, Quatse, Gold,Tsolum, Nahmint, Muchalat, Heber?

I don't have much information on rivers other than the ones I listed above since I just retrieved them from that website. I'm sure it is available somewhere. I receive emails on a regular basis from various organizations that wish to have their projects posted, so it is a bit easier for me to obtain information without spending too much time searching for them.

Recently I was at the Ministry of Environment conference and one of the challenges that was recognized is the lack of information available to the general public. While there is plenty of work being done to address anglers' concerns, most are not being made aware of. This could be due to a variety of reasons. There lacks services which would deliver such information to anglers. There is a will to change that. One of the initiatives is to possibly work with private online resources such as this one as a channel where information can be delivered or questions could be answered. Fisheries and Oceans Canada, particularly in Region 2, is already quite involved in making information available on here due to my involvement on the SFAC and few other projects. My hope is that the same relationship would be developed with MoE in the years to come so we are not just promoting angling interest, but educated angling interest.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2010, 09:28:53 AM

Hi Bederko. Earlier in this thread you asked for a few ideas on how to improve the C-V steelhead fishery experience.
Thankyou for this opportunity.
First thing we as anglers, environmentalists, and concerned citizens need to decide is what we want for this system – more hatchery fish or a quality, less crowded catch and release fishery. IMO, the cheapest ( a concept so important to governments nowadays) and arguabably, the best for wild steelhead would be to stop all hatchery steelhead enhancement. Make the C-V strictly catch and release for all RBT; adipose clipped adults, adipose clipped juveniles included. Let all present and future returning hatchery fish spawn naturally. Reinvest the estimated cost if raising the yearly juvenile output (100k) into a long term stock monitoring program and habitat restoration.

Yeah, in my dreams.

OK, here’s another thought. Present Chilliwack hatchery/MOE protocols call for the collection of 35 M and 35F, raise them for one year, then release them, smolting or not, in the lower river, so as not to compete with wild steelhead juveniles. With normal holding mortalties, the total number of wild Chilliwack steelhead collected for the broodstock program is closer to 75- 80 fish . When sexually mature the females are airspawned (air is forced into the body cavity, expressing the eggs) allowing the fish to be released alive later. This sounds well and good but unfortunately, air spawning invariably leaves 500-800 eggs behind in the body cavity. This could be 20% or more eggs, per fish, that are not available for rearing. Using a round number of 500 eggs left behind per female (35 x 500) shows app 17,500 eggs not available to this program. With a fecundity of app 3000-3500 eggs, this is equivalent to 5 wild steelhead. I propose in future all female steelhead be killed and spawned using standard hatchery procedures. The increased production from these “extra” eggs would easily offset the number of returning prespawned fish. And it would not cost a penny to implement.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: liketofish on February 15, 2010, 05:49:43 PM

Too bad to lose a senior member like steelhawk. He has shared his insights on steelhead fishing quite generously over the years. Oh well, if the language on both side can be tuned down, it may not come to this.

If the Vedder is closed to hatchery stocking, perhaps the Stave should be enhanced to replace it. Otherwise, perhaps we should ban steelhead fishing all togehter to preserve the wild stock. We can all save spending on the steelhead stamp. We can also stay home all winter wondering what to do. ;D

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: bederko on February 15, 2010, 09:30:41 PM

Hey Dave,

I know this topic has flown around the "long table" many times over the years, I thought it would be interesting to see what the guys on here might think. ;) I'd be all for your pipe dream of C&R on the Vedder, it would mean alot less pressure for those of us who live near the river... Would this mean that the river would open above Slesse? Somehow I don't think it will happen soon though. I would think there would be more chance of hatchery production being stopped on some of the less used rivers in the region.

As for the air spawning... I believe the fecundity on Chilliwack fish is closer to 4500 eggs. I know I've airspawned over 6000 eggs out of a single Chilliwack doe. To my knowledge, air spawning is mainly to allow for the release of these fish. This is a public perception thing and it will be interesting to see what some of the members here would think about 35 wild females being killed at spawning rather than 25 or so being released afterwards (there are some fish that are not in good enough shape to release post-spawn, I'm guessing it's near 10).

My question, and I think this is yours too, is should we be continually taking 75-80 fish out of this river when we really have not been monitoring the population size? As you know, currently the only method of evaluating the run size is with the "angler survey" which leaves much room for error. Maybe we would be better off to cut the numbers down to 25 pairs and lethally spawn every egg out of each female. This would leave 10 more does in the river to spawn naturally. I don't know the answer but I do enjoy hearing opinions on the subject.

What do you think about increasing hatchery production on the Stave to redirect some pressure over that way? It is much closer to the population centers. The broodstock is not hard to collect and the rearing really shouldn't cost an arm and a leg...

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Rodney on February 16, 2010, 02:23:17 AM

We talked about the Stave River at that meeting a few weeks ago when you went fishing for cutties instead of showing up. :-X Raising hatchery production would certainly ease off angling pressure on the C-V system, but most likely not too significantly? Shore access keeps the demand down I think, however It'd be great for anglers who have access to a boat.

Secondly, does supply on the other systems currently exceed demand? The amount of pressure that the C-V system receives dwarfs all the other systems, possibly because people simply do not know what hatchery productions are done at the other systems. We continuously mention the broodstock target for the C-V system, but most are probably not aware of how many pairs of fish are spawned for other systems, or how many hatchery raised juveniles are released. This information should be more readily available to anglers, who then have a list of angling options. I still have the raw video footages of the steelhead production that we did last year, still need to be edited, hopefully released this spring. Some of this information is available in those footages.

With the C-V system, there really should be more work done on yearly spawner and juvenile sampling so we can establish some kind of estimate and trend over time. Without that information, it seems to be irresponsible to have a static target number for broodstock collection. Perhaps we are collecting too many wilds during a low returning year, perhaps we could be collecting more during a banner year. The broodstock target should perhaps be a percentage of the expected return of wild population.

What is the post-spawn mortality of those that are released after air-spawn? Some concrete data for that would be nice too by telemetry study, tagging, etc. If the post-spawn mortality is up there, it may just be better to collect less spawners and dead spawn them instead as mentioned above.

The Seymour River is probably the most sampled river in the last decade when it comes to its winter and summer runs in the Lower Mainland. This is due to the Seymour Salmonid Society, which has a strong volunteer base. I've always wondered why such volunteer-based projects do not exist on the C-V system, considering the amount of usage that it receives. It's never too late to start, as long as fish are stil coming back.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Dave on February 16, 2010, 09:16:39 AM

Good replies Bederko and Rod. It seems that increasing Stave steelhead numbers is a no brainer as this system is comprised of hatchery fish and is managed for that purpose. Rod, you make a valid point of attempting to quantify numbers of retuning adults, including previously spawned fish. If I recall, very few studies have been done on this but what I do remember is systems closer to the ocean have higher return rates of repeat spawners.
I am basing my comments on the quality of these fish after airspawning .... these fish have been held in the dark (they are held in small continers to stop them injuring themselves) for up to 3 months. My guess is this lack of photoperiod causes physiological damage, and is also perhaps the reason males tend to produce less than optimum amounts of milt. Also, because they are alive when spawned there is a much greater chance of injury to these fish when being handled.
Another advantage to killing the females is the carcasses could be reintroduced into selected areas in the watershed.
I hope other forum members offer their opinions on this subject.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Jonny 5 on February 16, 2010, 07:47:40 PM

I read some of this thread and a bit of the last one, and decided to wade in (no pun intended) with a bit of science-y mumbo jumbo... And keep in mind this is total speculation on my part as I don't know much about the vedder river or the steelhead that live there; to start, a couple of points from other peoples posts:

1. There are not as many fish caught now as there were in the past. (for arguments sake, lets assume this is correct)

2. There are approximately the same number of fish released every year (and that is a lot of fish)

3. Fishing pressure on the vedder is huge. (no question about that)

These three points reminded me of a study that showed high angling pressure in lakes results in significantly altered fish behavior, such as angler avoidance, in a short period of time (like decades, not millennium). I couldn't find the paper I was looking for, but this one is close enough and also pretty interesting IMO:

http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/deliver/connect/umrsmas/00074977/v70n2/s17.pdf?expires=1266379161&id=55058344&titleid=10983&accname=Guest+User&checksum=0C757F63B919FDD4B2B2C1007E34AED7 (http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/deliver/connect/umrsmas/00074977/v70n2/s17.pdf?expires=1266379161&id=55058344&titleid=10983&accname=Guest+User&checksum=0C757F63B919FDD4B2B2C1007E34AED7)

I can't imagine a reason why vedder river steelhead would be exempt from evolution, as there is ample pressure on biters and it would therefore be massively beneficial for the spawning fish to avoid getting caught by not biting... Of course if you don't believe in evolution, then it could just be gods will. ;D

Also for comparison sake, it might be interesting to know a bit more on how american rivers get their brood fish. Are they wild caught or are they raised? If they are raised, it could be argued that the "avoidance" is not there and likely never will.

---

As an interesting side note, when I did a spell check on this email, I was surprised to see that "vedder" is not in the dictionary. ;D

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: troutbreath on February 16, 2010, 09:50:36 PM

Vedder over here is defined as "arguing over fish" :) No need for a dictionary. First nation defintion of course. ;)

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: bederko on February 16, 2010, 10:04:09 PM

What is the reasoning for air spawning? Any fish that has already been spawned by the hatchery, isnt in the greatest shape any more. I cant think of a reason for it to go back into the river other than "nutrients to the river".

As I said, the main reason is public perception. The other reason would be that some of these fish could potentially survive, leave the river and return to spawn again. Many of the fish spawned by the hatchery are in great shape post spawn and there would be no reason why they wouldn't have as much chance as a "naturally" spawning fish to leave the river and recuperate.

Raising hatchery production would certainly ease off angling pressure on the C-V system, but most likely not too significantly? Shore access keeps the demand down I think, however It'd be great for anglers who have access to a boat.

Shore access doesn't seem to hamper all the anglers swarming to the Stave in the fall months for the chum run. I believe that the potential is there to draw anglers to this river with increased opportunity. It may not be yours or my idea of idyllic steelhead fishing but for many anglers it may be what they're looking for. If your average steelheader has a chance to hook several fish a day, closer to home, I think he would take it.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: liketofish on February 17, 2010, 05:51:23 PM

You bet if people can hook several fish per day at the Stave, it will take the pressure off the Vedde for sure. And there may be a lot more steelhead stamps sold. I would buy an inflatable. ;D There you have it. Its all good for the average steelheaders and the economy. Bring on the fish. :D

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: fishstick on February 17, 2010, 05:52:43 PM

as far as air spawning goes, why not?, does it make sense to kill wild fish (which are used for broodstock) when they can survive to return even in low % in an era where wild fish are in such bad shape. air spawning is also used on cutthroat which aren't fecund (as far as I've read) until they've spawned a few times, thus making it kind of stupid to kill them, anyways a fish released air spawned that promptly dies still fertilizes the river. The vedder river is and continues to be there to draw fishing pressure away from smaller more fragile rivers, lets hope it continues that way, as I've said before there's a hell of a lot more fish in the vedder than most others
so what's the problem?

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: fishstick on February 17, 2010, 06:00:16 PM

the stave has a poor fishery for a reason, mainly because of the dam, dumping more hatchery fish isn't going to change a thing, again why would you want to direct more fishing pressure on to smaller more messed up rivers when the vedder works fine as a high pressure high return river

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: bluesteele on February 17, 2010, 10:43:09 PM

Quote from: Steelhawk on February 11, 2010, 02:23:22 AM

The Vedder is our prime steelhead river in the Lower Mainland where the population is most concentrated. Yet the steellhead fishing is dismal compared to the Stamp. Why should this be? Fishery folks, how do you justify such a poor stocking of steelhead in the Vedder compared to the Stamp? We are not even trying to compare to American rivers where 20+ hookups per day is common. Most Vedder steelheaders will be happy with 1 or 2 hookups per day. It is a shame that fishing reports on the Vedder steelhead are consistently dismal. And yet the Stamp, the prime steelhead river of the island, seems to be full of steelheads. Ironnogin just reports that 25 steelheads by 4 rods in 3 hours. It makes me wonder why Vedder steelheaders often go skunked repeatedly. Why does it have to be like this? I mean, if the population density in the Lower Mainland reflects in the bigger number of licensed fishermen here, why don't fishery folks put more resources in stocking the most important steelhead and salmon river of the Lower Mainland where the population is? If the Vedder can have steelhead fishing like the Stamp or even better like the American rivers, I don't mind paying for a special stamp or tag for the privilege to fish the Vedder (much like a classified water concept). What do you guys think?

Hey I'm all for pumping up the chedder ;D I would even buy a special tag and not fish it. Just to keep everyone away from the honeyholes LoL...
I think we ought to pump the Squish full of steelies as well. Big river lots of road access... Fill er up and bonk bonk bonk !!!!

Bluesteele ::)

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: drh on February 20, 2010, 11:31:10 PM

Steelhawk I we, are hoping your not planning on leaving are you? :'(

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: liketofish on February 22, 2010, 03:21:56 PM

I agree with drh. Some members miss your postings on steelhead fishing reports. So Steelhawk perhaps just stay away from the controversial subjects in the discussion sections and focus on the steelhead reports where your presence and experience is most appreciated. Stay for those who appreciate your contributions in the forum.

Title: Re: The Vedder vs the Stamp
Post by: Steelhawk on March 02, 2010, 01:59:26 AM

Wow, been away watching all the awesome Olympic games and cheering our Canadian athletes. That hockey game on the last day is such a privilege to watch it and witness history. Been there at Robson Sunday night to join in the big celebration party. I have never seen so many happy people in one place and yet so peaceful. We were singing 'Oh Canada' non-stop. Vancouver is a great place to be. So proud to be a Canadian (though I don't trust the government in general). ;D Well, if they can continue to support our athletes, they may get my vote of confidence. At least they do something right there. ;)

Glad that Rodney is gracious enough not to delete my account. Like I said before, he has been a gracious and knowledgeable host and run a great fishing site. Thank you guys for saying the kind words. This is such a nice forum, particularly for newer fishermen as Rodney sure imparts so much valuable information to them, and it is here some of us who have more experiences can share to help out our LML newer fishermen. Perhaps it is a good suggestion that I stay out from all the hot debate subjects on flossing and government, and just focus my contribution in sharing some fishing reports and steelheading experiences. That is where I can help and enjoy at the same time. So I will be back to file some fishing reports soon.

Go Canada Go!