Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: bobby b on December 07, 2018, 10:55:49 AM
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I've always wanted to make the trip to the Skeena ....a bucket list kinda thing ya know...
Sooo.... here I am making plans for a Steelhead/Coho trip to the Skeena in Sept 2019. Just about to book a place to stay and then I see this....
http://cfnrfm.ca/gitxsan-government-announces-recreational-closure-of-skeena-river-for-2019-season/?fbclid=IwAR3nPEKuWob5nKmOcLWX6BweRRRnkbRoQiOT_Q_1jJJJ_OcjN8rk-VExigA
Guess I'll wait and see...
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Wait, I don't understand? How can a FN band close a a river down? Isn't that all up to DFO?
Do they have that power?
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That's what I'd like to know...
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Wait, I don't understand? How can a FN band close a a river down? Isn't that all up to DFO?
Do they have that power?
Looks like we're about to find out. If I had to put up money I would bet yes, they do. Think how many lawyers will get rich before a final decision is made.
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If the government says it open its open, go fishing. This stuffs getting dumb, they want to close it for anglers but they will be netting. Lol,
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I applaud their initiative, but see absolutely no possible way of enforcing it. Takes me back to taking the 'toon out at Potato Patch on the Kispiox which is technically reserve land, approached by a younger local who demanded $35 for fishing on their land. I told him I would gladly pay the fishing fee to the local band if they could provide me a receipt or any kind of legally binding proof of purchase. He couldn't and so I told him I wouldn't give him anything and would go speak to the band in Kispiox about it and that was pretty much the end of it. So perhaps I could see a similar situation where in there are similar self starters looking for easy chump change but I highly doubt they would be able to enforce anything short of breaking the law themselves so I wouldn't get overly worried about the Skeena in 2019.
All that being said, if the major FN in the region were collaborating with the DFO to have it shut down, it may be possible to see the river shut down due to stock concerns ala chinook/sockeye 2018. Unfortunately all it really amounts to is window dressing as others have stated, you can bet the nets will still be out and once the test fishery gets its first spike of sockeye in early summer the armada will be out in full force.
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Looks like we're about to find out. If I had to put up money I would bet yes, they do. Think how many lawyers will get rich before a final decision is made.
Dig ding ding! we have a winner!
If this ends up in court rec fishing is F'ed
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Also, I should add, the Gitxsan traditional territory roughly ends on the Skeena at Cedarvale, so unless their is collaboration with other bands, I don't see how they could authorize a complete closure of a river. Think of it as the Dakelh (Carrier) band shutting down the entire Fraser from the mouth to the headwaters in the Rockies........
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^^^
There are reserve lands and there is also a traditional territory which Nations lay claim to based on ancestral use and usually has to be backed up by some form of proof and documentation, even if its an oral history. Often the traditional territories overlap and there can be disputes between the Nations. This will be an interesting and possibly precedent setting test of aboriginal rights and title to their lands.
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Thats a pretty hyperbolic press release. I wouldn't worry about anything until you see actual DFO notices. You should still make the trip up. The real magic is found around the various tribs anyway.
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Well....... things are sure trending towards full closures that's for sure. It is quite possible that we will all see a complete closure to anyone other than FN in our lifetime. I will put money on that.
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From someone who lives up the and is deeply ingrained in fisheries: "That announcement is from a group that claim they speak for the whole Gitksan but do not. They are a small group of hereditary chiefs... Gitksan law is that you can’t tell another chief what to do on their house territory, so those chiefs can’t speak for all the Gitskan chiefs... The Gitskan are very politically complicated and contentious."
If there is a full closure, it should come from DFO.
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Ok.... think I will make the trip anyways. Having talked to others it is likely I will be fishing the 'tribs for the most part.
Never been up there .... so I have some planning to do as far as where I'll be fishing in that area.
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If you stay at Ferry island and fish skeena main, I don't think the Gitxsans will chase you with a tomahawk. Overall, there are so many optional fishing spot. You should go anyway
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Ok.... think I will make the trip anyways. Having talked to others it is likely I will be fishing the 'tribs for the most part.
Never been up there .... so I have some planning to do as far as where I'll be fishing in that area.
There are a ton of options if your even the slightest bit worried about the Gitxsans enforcing that silly ban. The Copper near Terrace is a great option if steelhead is your main target. All the lower tribs between Terrace and Rupert will provide excellent coho options (Lakelse, Kalum, Zymacord list goes on.....) Smithers is another excellent option, I've caught many a steelhead right across from Riverside Park right in the heart of Smithers. Bulkley/Morice is technically on Wet'suwet'en traditional territory and they shouldn't give you any issue with regards to fishing that system. I personally wouldn't let that announcement cancel my plans to fish the area.
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nice to see people with local experience adding some balanced opinions.
The Skeena has been closed the past season or two until about the 3rd week of July.
If, and it's a big If, court in BC supports this claimed right then the opinion has to work it's way though the justice system to the SCOC. That could take years.
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Last years closer was something very similar, the DFO is under constant pressure to shut down rec fisheries on traditional territories. One of the concerns voiced last years was that the bands were worried about not enough sockeye and Chinook would make it up river for the food fishery to be viable. The DFO was able to mask it as their decision to minimize public outcry. The northern nations are finally getting foot hold over government agencies and being consulted in matters of public resources in their territories, this is the result of the so called reconciliation process. There have been many situations in the north coast where such motions have been brought forward to close down all rec fishing for certain periods of the year but have been shut down by the DFO or the province. Things are changing very rapidly now and the nations are getting what they want. You have to remember in all of this that the order fisheries go in the eyes of DFO are, Commercial, First nations and at the very bottom the rec guys. I fully expect the Skeena to be shut down next year as it was in 2018 and maybe so as we move further into the future.
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Last years closer was something very similar, the DFO is under constant pressure to shut down rec fisheries on traditional territories. One of the concerns voiced last years was that the bands were worried about not enough sockeye and Chinook would make it up river for the food fishery to be viable. The DFO was able to mask it as their decision to minimize public outcry. The northern nations are finally getting foot hold over government agencies and being consulted in matters of public resources in their territories, this is the result of the so called reconciliation process. There have been many situations in the north coast where such motions have been brought forward to close down all rec fishing for certain periods of the year but have been shut down by the DFO or the province. Things are changing very rapidly now and the nations are getting what they want. You have to remember in all of this that the order fisheries go in the eyes of DFO are, Commercial, First nations and at the very bottom the rec guys. I fully expect the Skeena to be shut down next year as it was in 2018 and maybe so as we move further into the future.
These are simply baby steps towards full out salmon closures province wide in the near future. Its clearly trending in that direction. Again, all in the name of reconciliation. Then, the FN will be banned to finally finish off the United nations Adgenda 21.
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I thought the reasoning for the complete summer closure was to protect Chinook and Sockeye stocks as they believed they had poor outmigrating survival conditions due to “the blob”. It was kind of funny to see the numbers as they came back and how wrong they were, Chinook numbers really weren’t as bad as they thought they would be and sockeye came back relatively healthy, healthy enough to warrant commercial fisheries once the 700k fish threshold was accounted for in the IFMP.
I hardly want to steer this to the latest and greatest racial debate but it seems like going after the recreational fisherman is the cheapest and easiest option when in reality commercial fishing does the most harm. Perhaps if the northern bands want to implement a positive strategy to rebuilding stocks at a time where all species are facing the most difficult conditions ever observed, they could lobby for a complete change to the way DFO handles fishery management be it their own fisheries, commercial and recreational. I personally would have absolutely no issue with leaving that river alone to recover as best as possible if other user groups similarly restrict their activities. Individually targeting a user group that has minimal impact and continuing business as normal seems extremely miscalculated as far as the big picture is concerned.
Also, I believe the pecking order as far as the courts and DFO is concerned is Conservation-Aboriginal-Commercial-Recreational
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These are simply baby steps towards full out salmon closures province wide in the near future. Its clearly trending in that direction. Again, all in the name of reconciliation. Then, the FN will be banned to finally finish off the United nations Adgenda 21.
I am ok with no more harvest of pacific salmon but I am not ok with giving up the right to angle.
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I am ok with no more harvest of pacific salmon but I am not ok with giving up the right to angle.
I’m ok with giving up wild stock retention. But they should never close retention of hatchery fish in lower mainland systems.
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I’m ok with giving up wild stock retention. But they should never close retention of hatchery fish in lower mainland systems.
My prediction is, a shrinking budget to hatchery production. The powers that be have made some compelling arguments for cutbacks in the past. The Chehalis summer run program is a prime example.
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They have no authority to close the river, but they are just a canary in a coal mine.
Skeena and Nass are being raped after Fraser couldn't be anymore.
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I’m ok with giving up wild stock retention. But they should never close retention of hatchery fish in lower mainland systems.
I agree even if they closed down fishing and removed the hatcheries, Poaching alone would kill the systems.
Hatchery's in the Lower-main land are good insurance, Not to mention the education they provide to city folk that have no clue
We need more people like you Avid angler that have experience on the water and say it like it is in the SFAC process.
If you are not already involved you should email Barbara.Mueller@dfo-mpo.gc.ca and tell her that you would like to join the upper Fraser valley SFAC and ask to be put on the distribution list for future meetings and info.
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The "Systems" did very well for thousands of years. Removing the hatcheries would be very intelligent. There would be no need to poach if the "Systems" had been monitored and maintained. Numbers have and will continue to improve when the resource in maintained in a self sustaining manner.
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The "Systems" did very well for thousands of years. Removing the hatcheries would be very intelligent. There would be no need to poach if the "Systems" had been monitored and maintained. Numbers have and will continue to improve when the resource in maintained in a self sustaining manner.
Lol what. Removing the hatcheries in the lower mainland would more or less be the end of lower mainland salmon and steelhead fishing.
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Lol what. Removing the hatcheries in the lower mainland would more or less be the end of lower mainland salmon and steelhead fishing.
Absolutely. Even systems without hatcherys ( up north ) have bad numbers these days. I think it's a tree huggers dream to believe by removing the hatcherys the numbers will get better.
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This thread is getting derailed!
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This thread is getting derailed!
Well getting the thread back on track, They are well within their rights to declare what ever they want with respect to their traditional territory. It will be up to the supreme courts to determine if they actually have to rights to do so.
So I guess stay tuned on what happens, but until as other people have stated DFO or the provence closes it to fishing, its open to the public.
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declaration is one thing - enforcement is another.
So they charge people with Trespass? Who is going to arrest, who is going to issue a summons and what court will hear charges?
Sounds more like symbolism to me.
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Lol what. Removing the hatcheries in the lower mainland would more or less be the end of lower mainland salmon and steelhead fishing.
Removing the hatcheries in the lower mainland would be the end of lower mainland salmon and steelhead fishing.
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again the thread goes off the rails. I also don't agree that closing hatcheries would end salmon and steelhead fishing in the FV. It wouldn't even be the end of retention. However it would change it significantly and it may drive many people out of the pastime. That said I don't think it wil happen at least any time soon. If ocean survival stays low or worse continues to decline, economics will end the hatchery model as we know it.
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I also don't agree that closing hatcheries would end salmon and steelhead fishing in the FV.\
What salmon fishery would be open? Sockeye on "abundant years"?
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there is little or no hatchery enhancement of Atlantic on the East Coast or in Europe yet there is a sport fishery. On top of that Atlantic Salmon are in no better and perhaps worse shape than Pacific Salmon. Anglers can also retain salmon in some areas.
There are many streams here in LM/FV that have no hatchery enhancement yet you can fish for salmon & steelhead and in some cases wild fish can be retained. So I don't buy that salmon and steelhead fishing would end here if hatchery programs were closed down.
FWIW we are now going down that road with anadromous cutthroat.
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there is little or no hatchery enhancement of Atlantic on the East Coast or in Europe yet there is a sport fishery. On top of that Atlantic Salmon are in no better and perhaps worse shape than Pacific Salmon. Anglers can also retain salmon in some areas.
There are many streams here in LM/FV that have no hatchery enhancement yet you can fish for salmon & steelhead and in some cases wild fish can be retained. So I don't buy that salmon and steelhead fishing would end here if hatchery programs were closed down.
FWIW we are now going down that road with anadromous cutthroat.
I honestly can not name one flow in the LM or FV where you can retain a wild steelhead or wild Coho. Just wild Chum. And the Harrison for Chinook ( if it's open).
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there aren't any. But you can retain chum pink and chinook, some years. Ditto for the saltwater. I believe some coho population could in good years could support a modest retention of wild fish. Same with steelhead I believe though we have hypnotized ourselves otherwise.
I should also mention we have quite nice Bulltrout fisheries that are not hatchery enhanced and are c&r only. We could porbably take a few fish
for supper in that fishery as well.
Like I said many people would quite possibly stop fishing locally in such a circumstance.
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Really Ralph?
I believe we are talking LM, right? on what system do you think anglers could retain wild steelhead?
Is it possible Bull Trout populations seem to be healthy because they are released?
ah, it's devils advocate night for you :D, and I'm guilty of de railing as well
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If you removed hatcheries, after saltwater fishermen had their take there would be nothing left.
South Thompson chinook, maybe sockeye, maybe pinks that’s all I can think of
Our chum fishery is completely enhanced, Wild Harrison chinook stock would be over exploited in the ocean with the loss of the cap and Chilliwack production.
Between the cap and Chilliwack hatcherys this year 42 thousand clipped coho went to First Nations in ESSR.
I can’t see our wild coho populations doing that, so after First Nations were allocated wild to replace that their would not be any left for sports fishermen
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Ralph is up to his usual Saturday night over drinking....just ignore him.
No hatcheries...and its the final nail in the coffin....Maybe a sockeye or 2 every 4 years and that would be it.
And don't forget....they'd never sell another salmon tag again....who's gonna buy one if there is no retention?
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And don't forget....they'd never sell another salmon tag again....who's gonna buy one if there is no retention?
While reduced, plenty of people would still C&R salmon for the sport opportunity if still available. After all who would buy a sturgeon tag with no retention?
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While reduced, plenty of people would still C&R salmon for the sport opportunity if still available. After all who would buy a sturgeon tag with no retention?
well the sturgeon hatcheries make up for that don't they! LOL
WMY - you think a switch to no hatcheries would mean no change in how the saltwater fishery is managed?
Dave you have any idea how Atlantic salmon retention is managed in Quebec, the Maritimes or NFLD? Apparently not.
The Chilliwack could possibly manage some retention of wild fish by lottery or a limited tag system muc as hunting is managed. No deer or moose or elk hatcheries AFAIK.
BTW I am just saying this is maybe how it could be done without hatcheries - I don't expect it to happen. We'll just keep on with the same old same old until all the fish are gone.
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The fish need our help. It's clear as mud. We can all go on and on and name a seemingly endless amount of systems with poor return from Vailmount to the FV. The upper Pitt sees enough wild Coho. Where is that opening. Please Ralph. It's a total pipedream to think the powers that be will even open a wild Steel or wild Coho fishery. The Pitt is a prime example of that.the amount of trust I put into what the federal government tells me is slim to none. I'll never in a million years bend over and submit to a hatchery shut down in Hope's of wild stocks rebuilding on their own and one day retain wild fish in the LM.
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To many presidents already set by the Supreme Court for B.C. salmon that make the no hatchery system possible.
As for comparing it to hunting well, commercial hunting was banned for a reason. However your never going to ban commercial fishing with how ingrained it is in First Nation culture in our coast. The recent Supreme Court rulling on the WCVI proves that.
The Supreme Court May have locked us into a death spiral of manage to zero or Atlest manage to almost zero.
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To many presidents precedents already set by the Supreme Court for B.C. salmon that make the no hatchery system possible.
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The Supreme Court May have locked us into a death spiral of manage to zero or Atlest manage to almost zero.
Fixed that error for you.. had to or there'd be a Trump joke somewhere.
The SCOC has never issued a ruling on hatcheries. Evidence is hatcheries don't really help fish, just sport anglers. Pretty clear however some rivers like the Cap and Seymour wouldn't have much a salmon return without hatcheries.
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I know what you mean ralph that their is a wealth of information out there that points out issues with hatcherys.
I am just not sure their is political will to live though that transition.
If we only care about wild salmon and not killing them then certainly removing hatcherys makes sence.
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To the original creator of this thread, all this bickering over inbred hatchery fish should serve as increased motivation to make the trip north where the opportunities to harvest wild salmon still exist.
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Bill C-262.
Make yourself familiar with it....
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Bill C-262.
Make yourself familiar with it....
"Whereas all doctrines, policies and practices based on or advocating superiority of peoples or individuals on the basis of national origin or racial, religious, ethnic or cultural differences are racist, scientifically false, legally invalid, morally condemnable and socially unjust;"
This part gets my eye twitching.