Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: clarki on November 01, 2018, 09:29:35 PM
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I started fishing jigs for coho with rubber grubs about 5 years ago, but it's only been in the past year that I've started tying my own. I've landed several on my home ties but I'm wanting to expand my repertoire.
I've been tying with marabou, but I've seen some videos of tying jigs with shlappen.
What different effect does shlappen give you that you would use it instead of marabou? Under what conditions would you reach for a shlappen jig and not marabou?
Is shlappen tied on jigs with techniques other that palmering?
Thanks, Newb Tier
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Schlappen will add more volume than marabou in the water. It's a bit stiffer but is still soft. The individual fibres will also be visible vs marabou which is usually just a mass of material. Tie it as a collar use fibres as a tail or beard. Cut a V in the hackle and tie that in as a beard or build a collar. You can also use the tips to provide wings as is done with streamer flies such as a Spruce Fly
https://swittersb.wordpress.com/tag/spruce-fly/
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rabbit strips also make for great twitching jigs.
you can tie in a fairly long strip for the tail then palmer another one like you would with a hackle feather.
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I'm no expert but here is my 2 cents.
Most typical jig ties use schlappen for the collar. For example, polar chenille body and schlappen collar, or rabbit body and schlappen collar, or marabou body and schlappen collar.
The only time I even tie a jig with schlappen only is if I intend to thread a worm or grub along the hook shank, so a body of whatever material would just be in the way. But a schlappen collar make the worm/grub jig look nice and add a bit of extra color + movement in the water.
Could you use schlappen for all or part of the body of a jig? I suppose, but your average schlappen feather is not going to be long enough to wrap the length of a jig hook shank.
So, IMO, there isn't really a condition where you would reach for a schlappen jig over a marabou jig, as most marabou jigs have a schlappen collar. However there are conditions where you might want to fish a jig with a schlappen collar and worm/grub body + tail. Such as for steelhead instead of salmon.
Don't over think it. Experiment with different body and schlappen collar combinations until you find something the fish really like. There are no set "rules" with jigs or flies, put whatever you think might catch a fish. Try adding various color combos of silly legs or legs cut off hoochies.
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Ive been tying my own jigs for several years now. My go to recipe is a marabou tail section a crosscut rabbit followed by schlappen collar. The shlappen collar is always a contrasting color to the rabbit strips.
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Marabou collapses in faster water. All my steelhead jigs have Schlappen over crosscut rabbit.
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marabou can be wound in front of a collar of schlappen, chinese neck hackle or spun arctic fox to add body, movement and keep it from collapsing. Streamer flies and intruders have used marabou for decades and are effective in fast water. Winding or spinning marabou in a loop increases it's body.
Rabbit and other fur strips, either standard or crosscut are also very effective. Standard fur strips can be wound like crosscut for extra body.
Most of the schlappen I have are several inches long so I don't understand how they are not long enough to wrap the length of a jig hook which most often has a relatively short shank.
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seems local jig tiers aren't experimenting with the classic bucktail jig:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDhhcX65PEQ
great stuff that doesn't collapse in fast water.
I'd prefer flashabou type material rather than crystal flash used in this video
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Awesome video Ralph. Thanks for sharing.
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Hey clarki, can I clarify that you are looking for information on twitching jigs rather than jigs you would float for, because this underlying assumption makes a big difference.
A lot of the info provided above is great stuff, however, I think it is more suited to conventional jigs you would drift under a float for chum or steel. As you are aware, Coho have almost no interest in this type of presentation and are looking for big bold, in their face movement that will piss them off or spark their curiosity.
This is why curly tails work so well and I continue to use them today, particularly because they are cheap, easy and fast to make.
I never bother using shlappen, because I am not trying to bulk up the jig to get a certain profile, which is irrelevant when you have this demonic thing twitching up and down at a high rate of speed.
The main criteria I consider in twitching jig construction are as follows:
Jig weight - heavier weights for casting distance, penetrating quickly down into deeper water or getting down in faster flowing water. The jig weight will also depends on rod length, sensitivity and action; its tough to feel a 1/8, 1/4 jig or even 5/16 on a long slow action rod. Lighter jigs are better in shallower and slower water or if you need to hold the jig in a particularly depth horizon for a longer period of time. Also the fish are sometimes sensitive to amplitude and frequency, which you can vary on the way you twitch, but will also be influenced by the weight and the materials you use to tie the jig with.
Materials - my goal is to achieve maximum movement, not create a certain profile. I find marabou and rabbit create the best creating movement. The dear hair in the bucktail jigs will move, but not as fluid as marabou or rabbit tail. Marabou is the most fluid of the materials I use, however it collapses the most and is the most streamlined material. This in off itself is not a problem with respect to volume or size, but it does allow the jig to sink faster compared to a bulkier material like rabbit that appears to have more friction and is therefore held up in the water column a little longer. So for any given jig head weight, such as a 3/8 jig head, a maribou jig will sink faster than rabbit, it will penetrated deeper water more quickly and will generally require a faster twitching frequency and have a higher amplitude. However, a similar weighted jig in full rabbit, i.e. with a long rabbit tail (zonker) and a cross cut rabbit body will sink slower and you can fish slightly shallower water and with a slower twitch speed. while still keeping the longer casting distance of the 3/8 jig head. Obviously you can mix materials to fine tune the sink rate.
Tail - try to make as long a tail as possible because that increases the movement as it flutters down. However, the longer the tail the greater the chance it will wrap around the hook. When using rabbit for my tails, if it is the usual narrow stuff, I keep the tail under 0.5 to 0.75 inches (12.5 to 19 mm) from the bend, however if I am using the wider magnum bunny then I often go longer.
Flash - because it is all about movement and attracting attention, always add a decent amount of flash to the jig.
The best combination I have found, to make cost effective and easy (i.e. fast) jigs is to tie, is a zonker rabbit tail and body wrapped with long hair UV chenielle. The tail provides plenty of movement and the chenille provides movement and lots of flash. I can tie one of these jigs in about 2-3 minutes and the chaneille goes a log way and is of a very uniform quality.
HTH
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hair wing flies have been catching coho for decades. The famous clouser minnow is basically a bucktail jig scaled to fly rod size. The coho blue & Mickey Finn are hair wing flies proven effective for coho and many other gamefish. Coho also go for slow presentations and small flies - little jigs should be deadly under the right conditions.
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3/8 jig, rabbit tail, silly legs, flash the length of the rabbit, purple long chenille body, purple schlappen under a fuchsia schlappen collar. It works every year all the time for me. It's my all time favorite jig to twitch
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I have had success copying/supersizing coho flies into twitching jigs. Christmas trees, wholly buggers, egg sucking leach, etc.
For twitching, I use marabou mostly, some rabbit and quite a bit of tinsel. You might be surprised how a straight tinsel jig slays em!
Schlappen is something I might use as a collar but as a main ingredient, I'd only use it for jigs I intend to float. Marabou is really all you need for twitching jigs.
I just cast up 300+ jigs. 1/8 and 1/4 w a size 1 hook for floating and 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 w a 2/0 for twitching. If anyone is looking for quality blanks (matzo extra heavy sickle jig hooks) at a $1 each, drop me an email gkershawATshawDOTca.
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Thanks for your contributions to this thread, everyone. Sitting down tonight with a nip of Scotch and a laptop (for jig pattern ideas and cuz I forgot how to whip finish!) and having a go at some ties for the weekend.
Going to put some of Gooey's jig heads to the test.
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be sure to post some photos!
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be sure to post some photos!
Well, I feel a bit vulnerable doing that cuz I'm just getting into it and I've only tied about a dozen jigs in my short career, including these 4. But here goes :)
(https://i.imgur.com/T6CCrvn.jpg)
The one in the top left is a shlappen collar that I will thread a grub onto. Several of you mentioned shlappen collar so I thought I would try that.
Lots of other good ideas of material and ties that I will incorporate later.
One question...take for example the jig bottom right. I tied the marabou to the top of the hook, so it's not really tied "in the round". I don't think it matters cuz there is more that enough movement in what is already tied, but if I wanted to get it in the round, would I tie a piece of marabou along the bottom, or rather spread out the feathers more along the side of the hook shank as I am tying them in?
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I don't think it matters cuz there is more that enough movement in what is already tied, but if I wanted to get it in the round, would I tie a piece of marabou along the bottom, or rather spread out the feathers more along the side of the hook shank as I am tying them in?
Wrap the pink around the shank first, then tie in the purple and wrap up the shank
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those look fine clarki and will certainly catch fish. You can get longer fiber marabou such as blood feathers or 'extra select' which is also often called spey marabou.
A couple of videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xUqZtmKEFI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T9WEmfcri8
As others have mentioned rabbit strips are also perfect for this style of jig.
I will try to post a photo or 2 of some I have tied
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(https://i.imgur.com/iKQup7h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OvTYf30.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LC834u6.jpg)
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Wrap the pink around the shank first, then tie in the purple and wrap up the shank
I've only been tying the marabou feather to the hook, never thought (or tried) to wrap. Good idea...
those look fine clarki and will certainly catch fish.
Thanks, and time will tell. :)
I had a very interesting jiggy day yesterday. I was fishing a small system for coho with jigs, and although I did catch two of the coho I was after, what I was unprepared for was the eight cutthroat that I caught on jigs, with many more hooked and not landed. I was surprised how turned onto the black and purple jig they were. I could see them aggressively chase it, much like a coho. I've never caught a cutthroat, let alone 8, on a jig. Mind you, I've never seriously fished jigs in a system where cutthroat are abundant. What I did notice was all of the cutthroat came on a black and purple jig and both coho came on a hot pink jig. I fish this same system in the spring for cutthroat and I'm envisioning how small jigs heavy with tinsel/flash and white rabbit "zonker style" tail for some flutter might be an alternative to my standard approach of flies and small spoons. Anyways, a surprising day for a much-loved species in an unexpected way.
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Nice ties Clarki!
Wrapping marabou around the head of the shank is a good idea as it gives a little more of a shoulder/ profile when drifted, not so much for a twitched jig.
Jigs are one of my main arsenal carry options where ever I fish with a float and have found a lot of different species will hit them quite agressively. But nice with the cutties! ussually with them I will strip a small zonker streamer through them.
One of my favorite days was in early October, hit the lower and got two coho and two chum on drifted jigs, left and watched a huge push of chum swim up the canal so we raced to get to mid river, got to a nice spot where some anglers were already working the run from earlier, put on a bubble gum pink rabbit tail and white marabou jig with pink palmer chenille and pink crazy legs and with two drifts I had hooked a nice spring and all those chum decided to stay back as we didn't see any of them move up.
As for jigs I've got my designs which I have posted fairly descriptive details on how to tie up, twin tail zonker for that really fluttery action using single color zonker or magnum strips, and two tone in a single longer strip for twitch jigs which my buddies took from me and later lost them in some trees. :o
Jigs are my favorite go to when drifting areas where anglers have already worked it with either roe or spoons, you might get surprised by how sometimes they will just go after it cause of weird reasons I've gone over with friends and other anglers.
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Are those jig hooks doing any damage to the smaller cutts eh clarki?
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As for jigs I've got my designs which I have posted fairly descriptive details on how to tie up
Thanks for the reminder. I'll have a look through your posts.
Are those jig hooks doing any damage to the smaller cutts eh clarki?
Good question. I wasn't using the jigs posted above, rather other ones with a smaller #1 hook. However having learned first-hand how aggressive ct are to jigs, next time I'll bring along smaller jigs to use if ct are showing up in the catch.
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I wouldn't bet money that a jig with wound marabou would catch more fish than with stripped marabou tied as a wing. It's really a matter of what pleases the angler. I do know that the fly that has caught most of my winter steelhead the last few years is a blue/black Hobo Spey with wound marabou but like most such patterns it uses some material such as wound hackle or a dubbing ball to push the marabou up at the head and get that tear drop shape thought to be so effective.
However wound marabou obscures the body. It is also relatively fragile. Used near the bend it's liable to be cut by fish teeth. I always reinforce any palmered material with counter wrapped wire. I tie my wooly buggers with 'reversed' hackle starting at the head back to the end of the body then winding wire a couple of times to fix it then ribbing froward.
You can tie marabou on top the shank and below for an effect much like winding it.
I'd say a #1 hook is way too big for trout. I know back east and in the states small jigs have long been used for trout. It surprises me how big some of the hooks used locally on lures and jigs for salmon are. Fly anglers have long thought flies for coho in the FV have to be relatively small. The jig craze has proved this wrong.
I have often wondered when gear fishermen in BC would discover approaches used by fly anglers could be adapted to standard tackle for trout (and salmon). Why not drift nymphs under floats with light spinning gear on rivers like the Skagit or even use jigs to imitate leeches or other aquatic food in interior stillwaters
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That is a good point you bring up Ralph, without some kinda shoulder wrapping marabou is pretty pointless as it will just flatten out against the body of the jig or fly, but with that said for a drifted jig it would make lots of movement as the marabou would get the chanse to puff out and look rather wavey. The hobo is such the classic in terms of intruders but last year I tried some of the OPST grabboid style bunny leeches but with no luck.
As for being fragile I tend to wrap my stem a little higher up from the shoulder, tie down the point and then palmer it back while wrapping it back towards the shoulder, wire is a good idea especially if this is done near an area where fish will have their teeth on it most of the time.
This year I tried putting marabou into a dubbing loop and it seems to hold up better over a longer period of use and you can measure out the length so it can either be shorter or longer depending on preference, a bit of a pain in the my friend to do as I use a chip clip to hold the feather and then trim out what I need, then place it into the loop and spin it up.
I've seen some smaller jigs from various companies but for me they bend way to easily, I took some fairly small streamer hooks with straight eyes and made tinier bead head jigs with them cause like with your concern the #1 size jig hooks will easily damage a cutties eye or worse while a size 6 streamer hook that has been bent will do less on small fish.
I've never believed in always using smaller patterns for coho as I have laughed at how big of a spoon they will grab like a 1/2 croc or a 5/8 kit-mat spoon, and some of the flies I've gotten coho on like the bunny intruders aren't exactly pinky size but more like something that fills a 12 guage shotgun shell. But with that said twitching jigs especially with done with all marabou aren't exactly that big under the water especially when twitched fairly fast.
A friend of mine uses egg sucking leeches trailed behind a small spoon sometimes for coho, an old Gibbs croc in silver and about a foot behind he will tie in a fly and it works fairly well at times. As a guy who uses it all from fly to gear I've gone into that thought process as well and it has done fairly well for myself like with the jigs I make, a bunny streamer tied on a jig hook with a bit more flash up front, slightly heavier flies retrieved on a floating line to imitate a twitching action and so forth, I am sure others have done the same thing but not eveyone wants to spill the beans.... :-X
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Hi Clarki. I tied up seven today. Would love to share but for the life of me cant figure how to post photos on this site. If u care to send me you email or msg me i will send photos which u can share if u wish
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Clarki emailed pics
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I gotta say, this thread is golden. As I prepared to tie some jigs last night for the first time in 11 months, I re-read this thread again. There’s some good stuff in here.
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With the caveat that I'm relatively new to freshwater salmon fishing, I have had the most success with floating jigs so far. This will be the first season for me to try tying up and fishing twitching jigs, so it remains to be seen how effective that will be in comparison. What I love about them is that they're fun to tie and easy for my kids to fish effectively.
As said above, it's had me thinking about the common advise to go sparse for coho flies when they seem to go for gaudy, tons of movement jigs. I'm going to be trying a couple of these pattern flies this weekend which try to replicate that type of silhouette and movement in smaller form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IHS409h9o
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With the caveat that I'm relatively new to freshwater salmon fishing, I have had the most success with floating jigs so far. This will be the first season for me to try tying up and fishing twitching jigs, so it remains to be seen how effective that will be in comparison. What I love about them is that they're fun to tie and easy for my kids to fish effectively.
As said above, it's had me thinking about the common advise to go sparse for coho flies when they seem to go for gaudy, tons of movement jigs. I'm going to be trying a couple of these pattern flies this weekend which try to replicate that type of silhouette and movement in smaller form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IHS409h9o
Jigs tying should be fun especially for kids, I'd imagine for a younger child or even a novice angler that catching something on a jig they tied would be quite rewarding for them.
As for the flies, I tend to go fairly sparse and small, the OPST/ Trevor Covich design is a good one, I've changed the design a little for pink salmon by adding silly legs just on the underside of the rabbit strip, tie them in about the same length as the rabbit but not to long as to prevent short strikes, and if you can make sure the legs sit splayed to the sides and not directly backwards as it will give more body and wriggle especially in current or when twitched. Tie them in different colors and sizes, got a good sized spring last year grabbed a black and chartruese one but it was made with a magnum rabbit strip tail and not a ton of flash except for a EP minnow brush for a collar.
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I'm trying something new this year with some success. Probably the easiest twitching jig ( minus the pink grub ) I've ever delt with. I can also add gel scents with matting of maribou or rabbit fur.
(https://i.ibb.co/9cs9VJW/20190827-200312.jpg)
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you must be buying silly legs wholesale ;D
those look really nice! I saw a video about jigging with a bullet weight in a hoochie. would love to know how something with all the rubber legs works in a place like the vedder.
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you must be buying silly legs wholesale ;D
those look really nice! I saw a video about jigging with a bullet weight in a hoochie. would love to know how something with all the rubber legs works in a place like the vedder.
I did buy batches from china. Thoughts of selling but I was delayed this season. Maybe next. They work. No doubt. My favorite part about these jigs is the scent aspect. However, nothing has a wiggle quite like a rabbit tail with silly legs dangling below it.
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If you have more than you need, I will definitely buy some. been having a tricky time finding decent ones.
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If you have more than you need, I will definitely buy some. been having a tricky time finding decent ones.
The Chartreuse and Blue were hard to source that's for sure. I do have 550 pre tied skirts with bands. I'm just trying to find the right jig mold and jig heads. I'm experimenting this season. Chances are once we figure things out I'll be selling kits down the road.
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As said above, it's had me thinking about the common advise to go sparse for coho flies when they seem to go for gaudy, tons of movement jigs. I'm going to be trying a couple of these pattern flies this weekend which try to replicate that type of silhouette and movement in smaller form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IHS409h9o
Let us know how you did.
In the meantime, I will stay with the old standby:
(https://i.imgur.com/QyuW9li.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0I4uDEN.jpg)
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Let us know how you did.
In the meantime, I will stay with the old standby:
(https://i.imgur.com/QyuW9li.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0I4uDEN.jpg)
That's a fisherman. We all have intentions of trying new things and new locations but in the end Salmon runs are come and go like a dart in a wind storm we ALL end up going back to our honey holes and methods we trust.
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Nice work bigsnag! Also great to see you and my buddy Sterling the other day!!!
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Nice work bigsnag! Also great to see you and my buddy Sterling the other day!!!
Always a pleasure talking fish with you FFM. Btw, were you sneaking treats to Sterling? Why is he so attached to you?