Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: bsmcrosseyed on October 31, 2018, 12:05:41 PM

Title: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: bsmcrosseyed on October 31, 2018, 12:05:41 PM
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/drug-resistant-sea-lice-out-of-control-on-b-c-coast-report

What is everyone's opinion? Please keep it civil and thoughtful!
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: dcajaxs on October 31, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
is there nothing in nature that eats sea lice off of salmon?  In many forms of agriculture there are good bugs that eat bad insects, I'd hope that there would be something for sea lice too.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: santefe on October 31, 2018, 01:21:41 PM
Some years ago Ms Morton posted a video 'Calling from the Coast'.  In it she showed juvenile salmon caught near a fish farm in the Broughtons that were literally covered with sea lice.
That made a believer in me that fish farms were harmful to wild stocks.  Yes sea lice are  naturally occurring in the wild.  But thousands of salmon in a pen are not naturally occurring, hence you would expect large consentrations of sea lice.
The article in the Sun today only confirms my beliefs that fish farms are detrimental to wild salmon stocks.
Thats my two cents...
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: GordJ on October 31, 2018, 04:53:25 PM
Some years ago Ms Morton posted a video 'Calling from the Coast'.  In it she showed juvenile salmon caught near a fish farm in the Broughtons that were literally covered with sea lice.
That made a believer in me that fish farms were harmful to wild stocks.  Yes sea lice are  naturally occurring in the wild.  But thousands of salmon in a pen are not naturally occurring, hence you would expect large consentrations of sea lice.
The article in the Sun today only confirms my beliefs that fish farms are detrimental to wild salmon stocks.
Thats my two cents...
See, that video that you reference was the reason that I distrust everything she says. About 60 or 70 years ago, in high school, they taught me that the scientific method took a lot of measurements and involved things like blind studies while she merely found a fish or two that “proved” her point and declared a disaster. This report is no different, there is no data except what is favourable to the outcome that was desired.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: RalphH on October 31, 2018, 05:38:20 PM
similar evidence has been provided as proof on this website in the last few weeks...FNs are killing all the Fraser chum and the IFS to boot but no complaints on that!

Exactly what is the science and how is it used on the internet specifically on this site?

BTW Morton's claims at the time were largely supported by a group of scientists who reported direct to the then Minister of Fisheries. They were not satisfied by the scientific methodology used by DFO to disprove her claims.

Some might be interested to search for the Pacific Fisheries Resource Conservation Council Report of Nov 2002 titled

2002 ADVISORY: THE PROTECTION OF
BROUGHTON ARCHIPELAGO PINK
SALMON STOCKS

A quote from the cover letter:

Quote
While scientific certainty is not absolute, European research does indicate that sea lice abundance can be associated with salmon farming. Given this evidence, combined with the presence of sea lice on Broughton Archipelago pink salmon smolts, and the fact the
decline in numbers was limited to Broughton Archipelago fish, the Council believes that sea lice were associated with the decline observed in the Broughton Archipelago.  Where there is a risk of serious or irreversible harm the precautionary approach calls for action
based on the best evidence available. In this Broughton Archipelago case, the absence of any evidence of some other cause, than sea lice, justifies action.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: wildmanyeah on October 31, 2018, 06:15:13 PM
Ah almo’s famous blunder where she claimed a pink salmon were going to go extinct in a few years because of sea lice.

Then a few years later the area had one of its biggest retuns ever
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: RalphH on October 31, 2018, 06:52:32 PM
...and what year was that?

As usual anything to do with open ocean salmon farms and sea lice becomes a plebiscite on Morton. How scientifically honest is that?





Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: wildmanyeah on October 31, 2018, 07:08:56 PM
https://biv.com/article/2017/05/whats-destabilizing-bcs-wild-salmon-stocks
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: GordJ on October 31, 2018, 08:37:34 PM
..FNs are killing all the Fraser chum and the IFS to boot but no complaints on that!
What does that have to do with this topic?

BTW Morton's claims at the time were largely supported by a group of scientists who reported direct to the then Minister of Fisheries. They were not satisfied by the scientific methodology used by DFO to disprove her claims.
Your recollection is different than mine but I’m not really sure of how I remember what the anonymous scientists said, what their fields of study were or what arena their support was posted in.


Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: GordJ on October 31, 2018, 08:47:19 PM
...and what year was that?

Funny, two posts up you use a 16 year old reference and that’s okay?

As usual anything to do with open ocean salmon farms and sea lice becomes a plebiscite on Morton. How scientifically honest is that?
Wake up call—— we’re not scientists, we don’t have to be scientific. And since we’re talking about Morton we don’t have to be honest either.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: RalphH on November 01, 2018, 06:42:41 AM
Ok so don't use your astonishingly old knowledge of the Scientific method to try to debunk someone else's observations.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: RalphH on November 01, 2018, 06:46:32 AM
https://biv.com/article/2017/05/whats-destabilizing-bcs-wild-salmon-stocks

Quote
wild pink salmon stocks in the Broughton Archipelago didn’t collapse – they surged dramatically in 2014. And in 2010, Fraser River sockeye made a stunning comeback, with a return of 28 million fish, followed four years later with a return of 19 million.

Quote
Ah almo’s famous blunder where she claimed a pink salmon were going to go extinct in a few years because of sea lice.

Then a few years later the area had one of its biggest retuns ever

ah now a few years is more than a decade...ha ha! Most of your supporting information is garbled at best.

and since then Fraser Pink stocks have crashed. Don't expect a rebound next year.

Sockeye stocks aren't all that strong either. Since '14 we've seen some of the weakest returns on record.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: wildmanyeah on November 01, 2018, 07:44:25 AM
ah now a few years is more than a decade...ha ha! Most of your supporting information is garbled at best.

and since then Fraser Pink stocks have crashed. Don't expect a rebound next year.

Sockeye stocks aren't all that strong either. Since '14 we've seen some of the weakest returns on record.

Because of fish farms? And sea lice?
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: Hike_and_fish on November 01, 2018, 08:03:56 AM
There have been worse returns than last year for Pinks and the following return was more than 4x. There is hope. The Squamish on the other hand sounds like it's dead.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: RalphH on November 01, 2018, 08:08:59 AM
Most of the Pink returns up north were poor this year. Another year of no abundance!

Because of fish farms? And sea lice?

Who knows? It's about the quality of information provided.

Remember RIP Rivers Inlet sockeye? Latest info I found was 300+ went through the Whonnock River in 2014. There were previous years of 100k+. Hardly RIP.

Wiped out by over fishing fishing? I found no peer reviewed studies that report that. They suspect poor ocean survival possibly right in the inlet itself where increased glacial runoff has changed the timing of the phyto-plankton bloom.



Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: wildmanyeah on November 01, 2018, 08:44:34 AM
Most of the Pink returns up north were poor this year. Another year of no abundance!

Who knows? It's about the quality of information provided.

Remember RIP Rivers Inlet sockeye? Latest info I found was 300+ went through the Whonnock River in 2014. There were previous years of 100k+. Hardly RIP.

Wiped out by over fishing fishing? I found no peer reviewed studies that report that. They suspect poor ocean survival possibly right in the inlet itself where increased glacial runoff has changed the timing of the phyto-plankton bloom.

Pink returns were bad, Chum returns were bad, Chinook returns have been up or down depending on the system and Coho returns have seemed pretty positive. Lots of reports of coho stuff with crab larva this year.

Generally tho down compared to previous years 

Rivers inlet sockeye went from a harvest of couple million down to nothing, Tho your right just like with Thompson steelhead they aren't likely to go extinct instead were likely to see the numbers remain at extremely low levels.

Depensation, Critical Mass, Allee effect is a thing with salmon populations.  Most times it seems like it is a mystery why the populations crash. Tho I do know one thing is no one wants to point the finger at them selves and say that what they are doing is a cause.

This is a pretty good article that I thought summed things up nicely.

A Dead Fish is a Dead Fish, Right?

https://www.salmonandsteelheadjournal.com/a-dead-fish-is-a-dead-fish-right/?fbclid=IwAR2DN6R4YWBiGFdo_D5XUNZxmtKkuFyqiceB4iW71hAqw_SZRPHxv9ayfAE
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: banx on November 01, 2018, 09:28:06 AM
Funny, two posts up you use a 16 year old reference and that’s okay?Wake up call—— we’re not scientists, we don’t have to be scientific. And since we’re talking about Morton we don’t have to be honest either.

 ;D
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: Hike_and_fish on November 01, 2018, 09:44:01 AM
Went Government scientists muzzled during the Harper days ? Yes. Does anyone know if the current federal government still enforces this ?
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: Easywater on November 01, 2018, 09:51:38 AM
Ah almo’s famous blunder where she claimed a pink salmon were going to go extinct in a few years because of sea lice.

Then a few years later the area had one of its biggest retuns ever
Perhaps it was because something was done to reduce the sea lice problem because of her involvement?
There was wide-spread use of Slice in those years following (2005?) and some farms were fallowed.
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: Dusty Mac on November 01, 2018, 11:37:08 AM
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/federal-scientists-eager-to-share-their-research-now-that-muzzles-are-off/article27171269/
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: RalphH on November 01, 2018, 12:54:12 PM
Perhaps it was because something was done to reduce the sea lice problem because of her involvement?
There was wide-spread use of Slice in those years following (2005?) and some farms were fallowed.

If I recall correctly after the report I mentioned above was issued the SF industry voluntarily shut down the sea pen operations in Broughton. The use of sea lice pesticides followed. I have been hearing reports of growing sea lice tolerance for a couple of years. This is very common in nature. Sea lice are proving adaptive to our fixes just as bacteria have proved they can adapt to our excessive use of antibiotics.

Quote
Rivers inlet sockeye went from a harvest of couple million down to nothing, Tho your right just like with Thompson steelhead they aren't likely to go extinct instead were likely to see the numbers remain at extremely low levels.

I have see the graphs per year since 1950. There was one year of about 2.5 million one about 3 the rest mostly 0.5 to 1 million. This is just like Fraser sockeye in 2010 and 2014. Historically, high returns happened very seldom.  Gee don't we wish we got a return of 300k IFS (LOL)! Some off cycle years the Adam's sockeye return is less than 50k. Salmon returns have always been highly variable. Before historic contact FNs  on the coast and interior starved because salmon runs failed.

(http://riversinlet.eos.ubc.ca/Images/Sockeye_figure.jpg)

Quote
Historically, Rivers Inlet was one of the most productive sockeye salmon based ecosystems in British Columbia, vying with the Skeena River for position as the second largest commercial fishery for this species (1). Population highs of more than 3 million fish have been recorded and for most of the 20th century an annual average fishery catch of greater than 750 000 fish was maintained.  However, in the 1970's the Rivers Inlet sockeye population began to decline. Despite reduced harvest rates in the 1980’s, as part of an adaptive management strategy, stocks continued to decline and the commercial fishery was closed in 1996. In 1999 the stock reached a record low of ~ 3600 fish, just 0.1% of historic levels. Although the commercial fishery has remained closed since 1996, with only a small amount of fishing permitted by the Wuikinuxv First Nations for cultural purposes, the stock has not recovered to harvestable levels (a minimum of 200 000 spawners).

http://riversinlet.eos.ubc.ca/about_rivers_inlet.html
Title: Re: Sea lice resistance causing mortality
Post by: wildmanyeah on November 01, 2018, 02:00:44 PM
If I recall correctly after the report I mentioned above was issued the SF industry voluntarily shut down the sea pen operations in Broughton. The use of sea lice pesticides followed. I have been hearing reports of growing sea lice tolerance for a couple of years. This is very common in nature. Sea lice are proving adaptive to our fixes just as bacteria have proved they can adapt to our excessive use of antibiotics.

I have see the graphs per year since 1950. There was one year of about 2.5 million one about 3 the rest mostly 0.5 to 1 million. This is just like Fraser sockeye in 2010 and 2014. Historically, high returns happened very seldom.  Gee don't we wish we got a return of 300k IFS (LOL)! Some off cycle years the Adam's sockeye return is less than 50k. Salmon returns have always been highly variable. Before historic contact FNs  on the coast and interior starved because salmon runs failed.

(http://riversinlet.eos.ubc.ca/Images/Sockeye_figure.jpg)

http://riversinlet.eos.ubc.ca/about_rivers_inlet.html

Thanks Ralph Great info