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[KarateKick]

Hello guys,

I have observed that some single hooks that come with spoons have very long shanks. When I replace trebles with singles on a spoon, is it necessary to use such long hooks, or can I just use a typical octopus hook?

Thanks in advance.

[Noahs Arc]

Typically single hooks that come with spoons are too large for the spoon imo unless using them in the salt where fish are a little less shy. I like mustad siwash hooks they work great for me. When replacing the hook make sure the point of the hook is facing down (opposite to the painted and or hammered side)
You can use plain octopus hooks you'll probably have to buy small split rings to get them onto the spoon though.
Siwash hooks tend to have a longer shank then regular octopus style hooks some more noticeable then others. Try the Mustads they are a great hook.

[typhoon]

Octupus hooks have an up eye which essentially pulls the point of the hook away from the fish.
You really should use a siwash hook (though I use Owner hooks, sometimes available at Army and Navy). They are shorter shank than Mustad and are shaped more like an Octopus.

[RalphH]

It's kind of a myth that up eyed hooks pull the point away from the hook. Much of this came from many anglers, including me, who found that some brands (ie Mustad) of traditional salmon fly hooks had lower landing rates than down eyed hooks. It really depends on many factors not the least of which just how bent up that hook eye is and how tightly tethered it is by the knot or the ring. Add to that the Mustads had rather crappy points in the old days.

I agree with Noah that you don't need to use such a long shanked hook. With an octopus hook you can uses a swivel between the hook the split ring on the spoon.

Or you can try Everyday's technique of using a length of dacron fly line backing.

Personally I prefer gamakatsu siwash hooks sized to match the lure. The shank is a little longer than standard size but not that bad. There are relatively expensive but I find they have a better hook up rate, at least for salmon and steelhead. Vision hooks are less expensive and work well though I find the wire is softer so the points dull or damage after contact with rocks etc.

Gamakatsu octopus hooks have relatively small eyes for their size. Owners (also expensive) have much bigger eyes and should be better for application where they are attached with a split ring.

[typhoon]

Yup. It's simple physics. "Myth" is just a myth.

[RalphH]

It's something of a myth as many people have argued that it doesn't matter much if at all.

Up eyed hooks were first developed to increase the gap of the hook Typically hooks were either snelled or used a shank style knot like the turl so as the pull would be in line with the shank - no difference. Today octopus hooks are frequently used with a bait loop - same thing. If tied this way or with a looped piece of line such is done with trailer hooks, intruder style flies and Everyday's trailing hook there is no simple physics involved as the leader exits the eye itself in line with the shank.

In my experience the octopus hook has the best hook holding ability of any hook style out there.

I picked this up from another board: http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=70366

Myth 1 - The direction of the hook eye affects the angle of pull on the fly, and angle of pull will affect how well the fly "hooks" the fish.

Reality - The direction of the hook eye does not affect the angle of pull on the fly and makes very little difference in the ability of the fly to "hook" a fish.

Gary Borger on pg. 178 of Designing Trout Flies demonstrates why the angle of a hook eye has no effect on the angle of pull on the hook. The angle of pull is determined by where the rod tip is in relationship to the hook and not by the angle of the hook eye to the shank. For example, one would think that a down eye hook would cause the angle of pull to be "down" on the hook, but the angle of pull is actually up if the rod tip is above the level of the hook when the hook set occurs.

So if you follow that reasoning the angle pull on an up eye hook would be down as long as the rod tip is above the fish.

If the bend of the eye made any difference the turned down eye hook would not be the most popular style of hook for flies as it has been for decades.

Any difference the eye bend makes depends on application of the knot but other factors likely make far more difference. IMO  these are:

sharpness of the point

shank length (shorter is better)

wire diameter - thinner is better, within limits

hook bend shape Sneck (sickle) and model perfect (round) bends are best, limerick least.

As I said it's something of a myth since of all the factors the bend of the eye makes perhaps the least difference.

[Noahs Arc]

Boy I've never thought so much about hook eyes.
Has anyone ever tried tying a bait loop on the other side of the hook to make the hook sit straighter with a gob of guts? Might have to try that this coho season.

[clarki]

When replacing the hook make sure the point of the hook is facing down (opposite to the painted and or hammered side)

I've heard that before. Why is that?

I prefer Gamakatsu open eye siwash for spoon replacement. I tried Mustad but found them to be too big even though in theory they were the same size as the Gammies.  Eagle Claw used to make a "spoon replacement" hook that I quite liked,  that A&N sold but they no longer carry it.

[typhoon]

I've heard that before. Why is that?

I prefer Gamakatsu open eye siwash for spoon replacement. I tried Mustad but found them to be too big even though in theory they were the same size as the Gammies.  Eagle Claw used to make a "spoon replacement" hook that I quite liked,  that A&N sold but they no longer carry it.

Generally a fish will hit a spoon from below. If the point is up the hookup rate will be lower since it is angled away from the fish.
It's the same reason why you don't want to use an Octopus hook connected to a spoon.

[RalphH]

Generally most of the weight of a hook is in the bend portion so all things being equal the point should orient down not up. With a spoon the hook will get wiggled around by the spoon action.If the connection is flexible enough - if the ring is big enough or there is a swivel between the spoon and the hook - the point should orient down.

[skaha]

Generally most of the weight of a hook is in the bend portion so all things being equal the point should orient down not up. With a spoon the hook will get wiggled around by the spoon action.If the connection is flexible enough - if the ring is big enough or there is a swivel between the spoon and the hook - the point should orient down.

-- I don't think there is a right or wrong way...test the spoon in the water to see if it is giving preferred action for where and what you are fishing for. In different situations and species some will attack from above, below, side or behind. To be most effective you have to determine which is most likely... depending on what you are targeting.
--Some argue back and forth but both may be correct given where and what they area fishing for. Best way is to test your own and find what suites you best.

[clarki]

Generally a fish will hit a spoon from below. If the point is up the hookup rate will be lower since it is angled away from the fish.

I hear that, but the way a spoon wobbles and the hook responds by twisting and turning, I can't see how orienting the hook one way or another would make a difference.

But then again...

[Knnn]

When I replace trebles with singles on a spoon, is it necessary to use such long hooks, or can I just use a typical octopus hook? 

I replace all my hooks on spoons.  I like to fish heavier spoons in the 3/5 to 2/3 oz range for casting distance and to make sure I can touch bottom before the swing (mainly for Bulls, Coho and Steel).  These sized spoons all come with monster 3/0 or 4/0 hooks that can do a huge amount of damage on smaller fish, so I replace them with barbless size 1 or 2's. 

The type of hook is a personal preference, however, when replacing the hook with a smaller size and shorter shank, I was concerned that the spoon might occlude or blind the hook during the strike, because the hook is situated so much closer to the blade.  Therefore, while I like to use a small hook I also like to make sure it is trailing the spoon at the same distance or preferable more than the original hook.  As suggested above this can be done using Everyday's technique of using a length of Dacron fly line backing.

Details can be found here:

https://outdooraddictions.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/the-trailing-hook-method/

So as long as the Dacron can feed through the eye of the hook you should be all good.

As an alternative technique, I replace the original split ring with 3 or even 5 split rings of ever decreasing size, with the largest ring at the spoon and the smallest at the hook.  The use of an odd number of split rings ensures that the hook point will line up with the inside of the spoon (as per the original set up).  As Clarki notes above, I am not sure if or why this should be important.  With a small size 4 split ring at the hook end you will have no problem running it through the eye of most regular (non Siwash hooks), with no stiction or restriction in the free movement of the hook.

You can buy packets of split rings at West Coast Fishing Tackle on Hastings (and all the other components to make you own spoons) and I would recommend a set of split ring pliers from Michael's Craft store to save your nails.

HTH

[Fish Assassin]

Instead of using 3-5 split rings, you can attach a split ring on either end of a swivel

[KarateKick]

Thanks for all the advice guys!

There seems to be a concensus that in general it's best to put some distance between the spoon and the hook, using either a dacron string or a swivel.

If I get lazy and use just using a hook, I am still not sure whether or not the longer distance helps. It sounds like Ralph does better with shorter shanks.