Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Sinaran on August 20, 2008, 10:14:10 PM
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walked by an FN reservation just few blocks away from my home at around 6pm, and saw a few signs like this attached to the poles. I followed the direction and found another one hanging in front of a townhouse.. So i called the DFO and asked what's up with that, I gave every detail i could but as soon as i mentioned that spot was located in a reservation, person on the phone told me that there were no extra officers in the office, and if those sockeyes were from the island, it would've been legal..? not quite sure about that.
By the way, i live in east vancouver by kingsway and joyce st.
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DFO is turning a blind eye on the sale of sockeyes. Did you really expect them to do something ? :(
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I grew up at Kingsway and Joyce and there isn't a reservation near there. So you must mean native housing co-op. So they don't have any right to be selling fish from a co-op anyway. Just DFO giving you the gears as well. They will sell them from anywhere, anytime.
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I saw them keep a Sturgeon that they caught in there net last year in chililwack. Sad ::)
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That grinds my gears. >:(
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I grew up at Kingsway and Joyce and there isn't a reservation near there. So you must mean native housing co-op. So they don't have any right to be selling fish from a co-op anyway. Just DFO giving you the gears as well. They will sell them from anywhere, anytime.
I grew up in the Kingsway and Joyce area too. Small world, eh?
I didn't realize there were Native only housing Co-ops. Maybe he's a commercial guy selling on the side?
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I grew up at Kingsway and Joyce and there isn't a reservation near there. So you must mean native housing co-op. So they don't have any right to be selling fish from a co-op anyway. Just DFO giving you the gears as well. They will sell them from anywhere, anytime.
yup, u r right. native housing co-op, that's the right name for it. Those look like townhouses, and a medium-sized totem pole is standing right beside the main entrance.
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Why is DFO turning a blind eye to the sale of sockeye, and at Kingsway and Joyce of all places. Hey FA, if we just go along meekly accepting this attitude and turning a blind eye (or even 2) where and when does it end. :D :o :D
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Why is DFO turning a blind eye to the sale of sockeye, and at Kingsway and Joyce of all places. Hey FA, if we just go along meekly accepting this attitude and turning a blind eye (or even 2) where and when does it end. :D :o :D
DFO is a joke imo.
They ruined the sockeye runs with ignoring the whole sea lice problem until it was late; typical bad gov't.
I have no idea what the solution is because most gov't we elect act the same stupid way.
ps.You'd actually have more success reporting the sales of sockeye to the city for selling without a business license or rev cnd for not paying taxes on these people.
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Let's assume for a minute that governments/DFO/etc all do exactly the same thing, no matter who is in power, for the forseeable future. It is way too hard for politians to do anything about this and be perceived as anti-anything in the media so the prudent way out is just to skirt it and try to keep the optics as nice as they can. Who really cares in downtown Toronto or Ottawa if some FN people sell sockeye on Joyce Street. We have a race-based fishery and harvesting taking place by only one group year after year, and that's how it's likely gonna remain. For a long time. So how can we manage it so at least they aren't encouraged to over-harvest what they are being allocated and grab all the cash possible by sellling on the street, exporting to the states, etc. Every extra fish = another extra $10 is a recipe for disaster.
In the old days the commmerccial guys used to haul everything to a central packing plant or two. Sometimes by means of another vessell that acted like an intermediary so they could stay on the water longer. Fairly sensible. How about a centralized spot where the FN reserve members who are entitled to X fish/year show up with a drivers licence just like a voting booth and get their fish. Maybe one spot per reserve. The opening is for x days and the members have y days to come and pick them up. Now we have some kind of count of how many fish are brought in and how many are dispensed. Who's going to do the counting? How about displaced fishermen from the commercial sector. ;D If nothing actually gets dispensed then voila, the whole thing has been running as a scam. If someone told me I could have my year's supply of sockeye if I just show up, I'm sure I'd be there. Oh, and yes there will be fishermen ready to buy the 'extra' fish that the band members don't need as they haul them to their cars. But now there are a lot more people involved in the illlegal sales and the more people getting a cut, the less appealiing it is to everyone and at least it isn't a few fishermen controlling the whole catch straight off the water. Illegal sales are a fact of life, from what I hear the allocation per person is extremely high in some cases and you can't reallly stop band members from selling their fish. Decreased allocation = political incorrectness = not gonna happen so let's take this as a given as well. Remember, we're just trying to make sure the fishermen aren't as easily incented to kill and kill. As far as the FN fishermen are concerned, they need to have tags from the plant for their allocation before they hit the water. Just like recreationals, they have to stamp the tag every time they catch, say, 50 fish. That way DFO comes along and they have 200 fish and their tags need to be stamped. These tags are numbered and those fish better show up at the plant. If they don't, the next year's allocation to the band is decreased by that amount. If FN fishermen are on the water with no tags, bye bye nets, charges laid, and their names and band number are recorded for the chief. Lower allocation for that band the following year and let the band sort it out how they handle the illegals on the water. Oh, and the total allocation stays the same, with proportional increases to the bands that follow the rules and to commercials. If they don't like the thought of commercials getting some of their share, politicians can easily say they have to run a responsible, accountable harvest or it will be done by those who can play by the rules. For every year they run clean, they get some of their allocation back until they hit their original quota again. Oh, and not all tags have to be for sockeye, either. On pink years, they harvest mostly pinks. Ottawa can spin the optics on this. A salmon is reallly just a salmon in Ottawa. If FN complain, a politician can point at archives where pinks were smoked by the thousands years ago and are actually pretty good when done right. After all, sockeye's value is purely commercial....
Does it already run like this? Is it too complicated? i don't know, just some thoughts and a talking point. ;D
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FRESH FROZEN SOCKEYE :D am i the only person that finds that funny.
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I grew up at Kingsway and Joyce and there isn't a reservation near there. So you must mean native housing co-op. So they don't have any right to be selling fish from a co-op anyway. Just DFO giving you the gears as well. They will sell them from anywhere, anytime.
I grew up in the Kingsway and Joyce area too. Small world, eh?
I didn't realize there were Native only housing Co-ops. Maybe he's a commercial guy selling on the side?
That's where I live too!
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I'm sure there are many freezers on this board that have sockeye in them. :-\
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Can't say I'm one of them.... I missed the opening :'( And I'm sure as hell not buying fish from natives, what a joke >:(
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I thought about this for a while-you might be able to nail them with the City Engineering-for the sign, and City Health-for selling food without a license/jumping through the proper hoops.
Make a few calls tomorrow AM I'm not sure if it's the Building Inspector you have to talk to about the sign or Engineering.
The Health Dept covers both Van and Richmond and is a bit of a different animal but I tell you true once they have their teeth in something they are like a dog with a bone they don't let go.
Be cool and low key offer to email the picture to whoever and you may see some results.
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/
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Let's assume for a minute that governments/DFO/etc all do exactly the same thing, no matter who is in power, for the forseeable future. It is way too hard for politians to do anything about this and be perceived as anti-anything in the media so the prudent way out is just to skirt it and try to keep the optics as nice as they can. Who really cares in downtown Toronto or Ottawa if some FN people sell sockeye on Joyce Street. We have a race-based fishery and harvesting taking place by only one group year after year, and that's how it's likely gonna remain. For a long time. So how can we manage it so at least they aren't encouraged to over-harvest what they are being allocated and grab all the cash possible by sellling on the street, exporting to the states, etc. Every extra fish = another extra $10 is a recipe for disaster.
In the old days the commmerccial guys used to haul everything to a central packing plant or two. Sometimes by means of another vessell that acted like an intermediary so they could stay on the water longer. Fairly sensible. How about a centralized spot where the FN reserve members who are entitled to X fish/year show up with a drivers licence just like a voting booth and get their fish. Maybe one spot per reserve. The opening is for x days and the members have y days to come and pick them up. Now we have some kind of count of how many fish are brought in and how many are dispensed. Who's going to do the counting? How about displaced fishermen from the commercial sector. ;D If nothing actually gets dispensed then voila, the whole thing has been running as a scam. If someone told me I could have my year's supply of sockeye if I just show up, I'm sure I'd be there. Oh, and yes there will be fishermen ready to buy the 'extra' fish that the band members don't need as they haul them to their cars. But now there are a lot more people involved in the illlegal sales and the more people getting a cut, the less appealiing it is to everyone and at least it isn't a few fishermen controlling the whole catch straight off the water. Illegal sales are a fact of life, from what I hear the allocation per person is extremely high in some cases and you can't reallly stop band members from selling their fish. Decreased allocation = political incorrectness = not gonna happen so let's take this as a given as well. Remember, we're just trying to make sure the fishermen aren't as easily incented to kill and kill. As far as the FN fishermen are concerned, they need to have tags from the plant for their allocation before they hit the water. Just like recreationals, they have to stamp the tag every time they catch, say, 50 fish. That way DFO comes along and they have 200 fish and their tags need to be stamped. These tags are numbered and those fish better show up at the plant. If they don't, the next year's allocation to the band is decreased by that amount. If FN fishermen are on the water with no tags, bye bye nets, charges laid, and their names and band number are recorded for the chief. Lower allocation for that band the following year and let the band sort it out how they handle the illegals on the water. Oh, and the total allocation stays the same, with proportional increases to the bands that follow the rules and to commercials. If they don't like the thought of commercials getting some of their share, politicians can easily say they have to run a responsible, accountable harvest or it will be done by those who can play by the rules. For every year they run clean, they get some of their allocation back until they hit their original quota again. Oh, and not all tags have to be for sockeye, either. On pink years, they harvest mostly pinks. Ottawa can spin the optics on this. A salmon is reallly just a salmon in Ottawa. If FN complain, a politician can point at archives where pinks were smoked by the thousands years ago and are actually pretty good when done right. After all, sockeye's value is purely commercial....
Does it already run like this? Is it too complicated? i don't know, just some thoughts and a talking point. ;D
This sounds great but the problem is we as canadians/crappy my friend kissing polititions have agreed to allow the first nations to have a psuedo/real gov't controlling themselves. Why would they listen to us when it comes to controling their fishery. It's theirs and we/gov't have told them it is theirs and we get seconds they get firsts.
Can we expect any less? Here on one hand we have said "ya your people were here first so you should control yourselves" but after we see that there not practising good management skills we say "well you can have your own gov't BUT we still want to control your fishery. Never gonna happen..
We all screwed ourselves by allowing two gov't running one country. It can't work, will not work!!!
My .02 cents
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Yep. Rule number one in politics/life is you can't let a fox guard a henhouse. Police, military, hell, even the Prime Ministers Office has someone from the outside watching and when neccessary, INFLUENCING IN A MEANINGFUL WAY the whole process. I guess that's just too much to ask in this case. Now we have your two cents and my two cents. And a couple of other guys on this thread. We're up to about ten cents. 500 opinions and we could buy a salmon. ;D
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let them fish and sell all they want,but with old traditional methods. No nets!!! Oh by the way still trying to get the women to get here card so i can buy my drift net.
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If nobody buys, the sellers close up shop. I guess that is too much to hope for but it is the willing buyers that perpetuate the problem. Maybe some public education would help.
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lol for what ic people buying at superstore and what they are paying,the indians have nothing to worry about peaple paying $10 to $15 for a sock
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I saw a lot of similar signs in Richmond, "Fresh Live Sockeye", and friends told me that they are fisherman, and caught the fish from sea... No idea if DFO will take action for these guys...
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It's not all doom and gloom. Some transgressors are being dealt with.
For all those who have been witnessing the ongoing illegal night netting on the Fraser this year and have been reporting it, I am pleased to advise you that the DFO Enforcement have been responding to your calls and have made a couple of major busts, confiscated gear and boats and are proceeding with charges.
To those of you who witnessed the illegal drift net fishing off of Wellington Bar on August 22nd be advised that this has been reported to DFO along with photos and they have identified the individuals and are proceeding with the investigation and enforcement action.
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let them fish and sell all they want,but with old traditional methods. No nets!!! Oh by the way still trying to get the women to get here card so i can buy my drift net.
I would have to definitely agree with you, I believe they should fish the way that their ancestors did when we first said they can fish( thats if they bring up the ancestor right), then we tell them well we gave you technology to better yourselves and they took it for granted and started to use and abuse it, we should say to them that if they want to fish then you do it your ancestral way
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The problem is NOT with the 1t Nats-- It's the Federal Gov't that said "You have the RIGHT to Fish " After Conservation Needs are met. Don't blame the Indians ! Blame OTTAWA . Oh ya And we All have benefitted from Technology brother-- next time try walking to your Vedder fishing spot and by the way what's this "we and them " C**p You personally invented the car and Computer ? Man are you ever smart and young------- Cheers
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It's not all doom and gloom. Some transgressors are being dealt with.
For all those who have been witnessing the ongoing illegal night netting on the Fraser this year and have been reporting it, I am pleased to advise you that the DFO Enforcement have been responding to your calls and have made a couple of major busts, confiscated gear and boats and are proceeding with charges.
To those of you who witnessed the illegal drift net fishing off of Wellington Bar on August 22nd be advised that this has been reported to DFO along with photos and they have identified the individuals and are proceeding with the investigation and enforcement action.
Let us know how the enforcement action goes..... ???
You may call me a skeptic ::)
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The Indians let the white man stay on their land and now they act like they own it! Anyone who thinks nets are not traditional are way wrong. Nets have been used centuries before any lost explorer ever set foot around here.Just so ya know! ;)
Hotrod
all rights reserved
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Oh ya And we All have benefitted from Technology brother-- next time try walking to your Vedder fishing spot and by the way what's this "we and them " C**p You personally invented the car and Computer ? Man are you ever smart and young------- Cheers
The argument about rights to use modern technology falls apart here:
The FN asked for demanded traditional rights of catching fish for food and ceremonial purposes. That's not a problem.
Where the equation doesn't work is this; If they could catch enough food and ceremonial fish with their canoes and spears and nets made of vines in the "good old days" why shouldn't they continue to catch them the same way. That's the definition of tradition! Logic suggests, actually it glaringly illustrates that if you use modern technology such as jet boats and woven nylon drift nets and night lights you are going to end up catching more than you need for food and ceremony and it becomes an economic opportunity. Back then their traditional "market" was the other natives. Today they have 1000's of people that are willing to break the law so they can buy a $10 sockeye.
Remember, they don't pay income taxes and they are highly subsidized with yours and my tax dollars. The salmon resource today is for everyones benefit. Conservation first, then food and ceremony for FN, then a little for the rest of us.... Economic opportunity for FN is not built into the equation and it shouldn't be!.
We as a society have a guilt thing which is being milked. We have this view that by sustaining their "traditional ways" we are doing a noble thing by maintaining tradition. In general this is totally false. Their society is very integrated with our society and the "traditional ways" flag being waved is just enabling generation after generation of their society to continue asking for and receiving handouts. This is not healthy for their society or ours!
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I'm sure there are many freezers on this board that have sockeye in them. :-\
Mine just has a spring and pinks. A whole lotta pinks. :D
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yup, u r right. native housing co-op, that's the right name for it. Those look like townhouses, and a medium-sized totem pole is standing right beside the main entrance.
Actually I live right behind that co-op and have seen people in cars stop in the back lane to buy fish, been going on for a few years now, still no one does anything