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Author Topic: Curious about Sockey returns.  (Read 4889 times)

fishseeker

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Curious about Sockey returns.
« on: August 25, 2010, 01:03:48 PM »

I know the sockeye run has been quite substantial this year but I couldn't help taking notice of the news the morning when they stated this was the largest in 100 years/ Am I hearing this right or is that just a gross exaggeration?

If all the tall stories are to be believed Salmon were supposed to be so plentiful 100 years ago you could walk over their backs when the run came in. [Obviously very tall stories but you get the gist].   Also heard that people were once able to catch loads of Salmon in English bay as recently as 25 years ago (..not sure if it was sockeye or some other species).

My understanding is Salmon have been in a steady decline due to human pressure/ global warming/deforestation etc. etc.   I am assuming this is the case but there are the occasional spikes where returns might actually exceed the Salmon returns as far back as 100 years ago.

Does this actually happen?  Opinions/ Thoughts I would be interested to hear because I find some of the statements about Salmon returns confusing.  [Last year's pink run in the Campbell was supposed to break certain records too I believe and it was pretty significant in the Fraser as well].
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dereke

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 01:40:31 PM »

  Sockeye returns if they are being tallied correctly yes are the largest since 1913. This is only the sockeye for THIS cycle, who knows whats in store for thier offspring. Many factors affect survival rates for example ocean conditions play a big part. Remember the panic everyone was in last year???

  The abundance of fish in English Bay were probably Springs and Coho and these populations probably died with overharvesting and the removal of their local food sources causing them to venture to different areas resulting in drastically less local fish (i.e. winter spings). Numbers of coho and chinook are down as whole populations. Don't let one large return let anyone think we are out of the woods by any stretch. The way DFO is allowing the harvesting of this sockeye run who knows what will make it back. Actually heard someone on CBC radio a few minutes ago saying sporties may get limits raised, that they will decide by Friday. Not trying to start rumors so take it for what it is worth as that is what was said.

Yes some species are doing well during certain years but until this happens over an extended period of time with all five pacific salmon species and steelhead we are foolish to think everything is all back to the way it used to be. There are still many local lower mainland rivers that had great runs of fish but due to urbanization these fish were wiped out and have yet to return. Will be interesting to see how the other runs pan out.
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StillAqua

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 01:52:24 PM »

I remember seeing a DFO map of the lower mainland and lower Fraser Valley that showed where all the "lost salmon streams" were. Many of them were prime coho and coastal cutthroat streams and the amount of lost salmon spawning and rearing habitat due to urbanization and agriculture was shocking.
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HOOK

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 01:58:08 PM »

i remembering hearing stories of the Coquitlam river being red with sockeye, sockeye so thick you almost could walk across them. I was also told that Coquitlam loosely means Red fish river.

I have seen pics from other small streams that are pretty choked up full with sockeye, yes even last year.

what i dont understand is why give the commercials a 36hr opening. why not give them 3 days with 12hrs each or something along those lines. This way some fish could get by each day leaving fish for First Nations and Recreational fishers as well.
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liketofish

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 04:35:24 PM »

Vancouver Sun article quoted fishery officials that this year run may reach 25 million fish. Wow! Where did these fish all come from? They also say fishery boats have caught so many fish that fish are getting rotten due to inadequate refrigeration to handle all that catch. Talking about bonanza. Ya, 4 fish per day for sporties is quite reasonable under such circumstances.
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Bavarian Raven

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2010, 10:56:58 AM »

Quote
i remembering hearing stories of the Coquitlam river being red with sockeye, sockeye so thick you almost could walk across them. I was also told that Coquitlam loosely means Red fish river

it was before the damming, it's run use to be bigger then the adam;s river run at its peak.
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jon5hill

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 12:01:14 PM »

I know the sockeye run has been quite substantial this year but I couldn't help taking notice of the news the morning when they stated this was the largest in 100 years/ Am I hearing this right or is that just a gross exaggeration?

If all the tall stories are to be believed Salmon were supposed to be so plentiful 100 years ago you could walk over their backs when the run came in. [Obviously very tall stories but you get the gist].   Also heard that people were once able to catch loads of Salmon in English bay as recently as 25 years ago (..not sure if it was sockeye or some other species).

My understanding is Salmon have been in a steady decline due to human pressure/ global warming/deforestation etc. etc.   I am assuming this is the case but there are the occasional spikes where returns might actually exceed the Salmon returns as far back as 100 years ago.

Does this actually happen?  Opinions/ Thoughts I would be interested to hear because I find some of the statements about Salmon returns confusing.  [Last year's pink run in the Campbell was supposed to break certain records too I believe and it was pretty significant in the Fraser as well].

Fishseeker, I met you at Sapperton last year fishing for pinks, nice to hear from you!

The notion of a steady decline in salmon populations doesn't make sense and here is why:

Salmon return in discrete packages each year, all returning in the 2-5 year life span at varying times but nonetheless consistently. As they reach maturity they return to produce a great quantity of eggs relative to their own numbers. This is what is called a K-selected species which are semelparous, meaning their reproductive efforts are focused on one large effort with no parental care. Thousands of juveniles per spawning adult emerge from the gravel the following Spring. The most dangerous part of the salmon life cycle is from egg to smolt, where they are easily eaten by larger fish, and myriad of other predators/disease/parasites. In this manner, the adults are producing far more than replacement numbers of juveniles to compensate for the increased rate of mortality of their offspring as juveniles. As you can imagine, favorable conditions may arise that lower the mortality rate on juveniles to a point where they grow fast enough to a large enough size to avoid most of the predation risk as juveniles. These factors include but are not limited to: coastal upwelling, bloom timing, water temperature, zooplankton abundance, and primary productivity. There are many factors that influence juvenile survivability, and there are models that attempt to quantify these conditions to predict the amount of returning adults. These models consistently fail because they are too simple. The most accurate models are not even remotely dependable, as they have an error range of +/- 60% of their median estimates. The situation could easily arise where a small amount of adults returning produce offspring who in the following Spring are met with very favorable marine conditions that enable them to grow fast enough and large enough to evade the elevated predation risk associated with the egg to smolt life stages. This would mean that relatively few adults returning could potentially restore the stock. What we are seeing this year with Sockeye on the Fraser is a moderate sized escapement (meaning adults on the spawning grounds) met with favorable recruitment (meaning those juveniles that survive to maturity). The juveniles of the 2008 adult return were met with favorable marine conditions such that they grew fast enough that they reached a certain size that yielded them protection.

In terms of how humans interpret this information and attempt to use it is another matter. Our current pre-season forecasting doesn't work and is completely unreliable. Last year the estimates were over by 7 million, this year they are under by 11 million. Another thing you should look at is how reliable our in-season enumeration and our post-season enumeration is and has been for the last 100 years. The test fisheries demonstrate significant error between sampling sites and sampling methods at present. In the past there were fewer and less sophisticated sampling methods. Much of the run estimates were done by calculating the catch per unit effort of fishing vessels, which is a poor indicator as fishing methods vary and over time fishing methods increase in efficiency, which would overestimate numbers in the long run. It is quite likely that this run isn't the biggest we have seen in 100 years as we simply do not have enough information. Frankly, I don't know why people attempt to estimate them at all. The most we can do is alleviate anthropogenic factors that reduce salmon numbers such as deforestation, gravel mining, damming rivers, polluting the environment, open-pen aquaculture. We can't rely on favorable marine conditions to give us these types of returns as the environment is far too tumultuous. We should also manage our fisheries better so that the escapement numbers are high enough each and every year to give their juveniles a fighting chance. Imagine if this huge run we are having was left alone to spawn and next years marine conditions were favorable.. then we would be walking on the backs of the salmon.

Jonathan
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 12:04:46 PM by jon5hill »
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fishseeker

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 08:39:10 PM »

I think all of your answers are very interesting and it is clear the issue with Salmon returns is much more complex than one is given to think just from reading the newspapers.

Jonathan, it looks to me like you have done some serious study on this topic and I take your point.  Its clearly a delicate balance between smolt survival rates and how many return to reproduce for the next generation.  I guess its a bit like talking about long term weather trends when we don't actually have accurate temperature measurements dating back more than 100 years.  It makes sense that sampling techniques would not have been as sophisticated then compared to now.   Still, its hard for me to believe human impact has not had a significant impact on Salmon returns - it would be fascinating to me if the prevailing wisdom turns out to be bogus.  (Good to hear from you too by the way)

Interesting too about the Coquitlam River, such a shame that it has been so badly compromised now.  Even the Stave River is a river which seems to get good Chum returns every year must have been significantly impacted by the Dam - I can only imagine what that system must have been like before the dam was built.

Like Dereke says, I would be interested to see how the other runs pan out.

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dereke

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2010, 11:01:16 PM »

 John at first glance I thought you were being a pompous A-Hole but thats a good post. Thanks for sharing there is some cool insight in there.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 07:21:44 AM by dereke »
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StillAqua

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2010, 11:46:09 AM »


Another thing you should look at is how reliable our in-season enumeration and our post-season enumeration is and has been for the last 100 years.........Much of the run estimates were done by calculating the catch per unit effort of fishing vessels, which is a poor indicator as fishing methods vary and over time fishing methods increase in efficiency, which would overestimate numbers in the long run. It is quite likely that this run isn't the biggest we have seen in 100 years as we simply do not have enough information.


I just finished John Roos mega-history of the Internation Pacific Salmon Commission and Fraser River salmon (not light summer reading, full of data and graphs) and he describes how total returns (run size) have been estimated since the late 1800's. Up until the 1930's/40's when the IPSC was formed, all they had was the amount of salmon canned by the canneries which gave very good estimates of how many sockeye were processed (the majority of salmon caught) but not those wasted or caught by other fisheries or that made it to the spawning grounds. So their estimates of how many sockeye returned prior to 1913 are obviously low but a lot more than 25 million. He estimates, based on various calculations and other data, that runs in the late 1880s were likely in the 40 million range each year. And that's being conservative. Considering how much sockeye spawning and rearing habitat has been lost in the Fraser due to dams (Coquitlam, Stave, Adams, Nechako, etc.), that number is quite believable. The canneries were were the ones telling fishermen to stop fishing back then. They threw a lot back in the Fraser.

Once the IPSC kicked in in the late 1930's, they started counting fish on the spawning grounds and getting better catch data so they could add the two numbers and get a decent conservative estimate of total returns. Obviously they won't have the final numbers until the fishing season is over but 25 million probably isn't very far off.
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FlyFishin Magician

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 09:54:15 PM »

John at first glance I thought you were being a pompous A-Hole but thats a good post. Thanks for sharing there is some cool insight in there.

Agreed.  Very interesting read and good post.  Although, I believe these salmon are an example of "r-selection".  K-selected species produce few offspring (humans are examples).  You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

Thanks John - you just brought me back nightmares of Ecology courses from almost 20 years ago!   ;D ;D
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jon5hill

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2010, 11:23:34 PM »

Agreed.  Very interesting read and good post.  Although, I believe these salmon are an example of "r-selection".  K-selected species produce few offspring (humans are examples).  You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

Thanks John - you just brought me back nightmares of Ecology courses from almost 20 years ago!   ;D ;D

I meant R.. thanks for the correction. I had initially wrote something along the lines of , "they aren't K selected", and then decided to state that they are "r selected" but forgot to change the letter.. woops
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fishseeker

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Re: Curious about Sockey returns.
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 09:58:27 AM »

Agreed.  Very interesting read and good post.  Although, I believe these salmon are an example of "r-selection".  K-selected species produce few offspring (humans are examples).  You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

Thanks John - you just brought me back nightmares of Ecology courses from almost 20 years ago!   ;D ;D
I read that article and I feel somewhat more enlightened now though I am not sure anybody truly understands whats going on with this.

If I understand these answers correctly it would appear that we have enviroment conditions that are essentially unstable and unpredictable in large part due to human influence.  Given that unpredictability the so called 'R' selection traits tend to be more favored -i.e producing lots of offspring with low survivability with the idea that some will make it back to spawn next time round.  If, for some reason, conditions in the ocean promote survival we can see an explosion of returning 'R' selected species like we are seeing with the sockeye.  Its the complex interplay of all the conditions that promote this kind of survival that I find so fascinating.

Great answers.  I was also very interested in the comment from StillAqua about the likely returns in the 1880's comparted to now.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 10:00:40 AM by fishseeker »
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