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[chardeemacdenis]

Considering how many interior coho and steelhead that got bonked in the last sockeye opening I can well see why other groups don't want rec anglers on the river.

[wildmanyeah]

How does flossing sockeye have anything to do with fishing for pinks on the lower Fraser below mission bridge.

[wildmanyeah]

I've pursued this fishery since about '93. My consistent experience is the fishing is not all that great until into September. I also have seen lots of people pulled out onto the river in August by the excessive hype and 'gold rush' attitude and just basically waste their time & a lot of gasoline. It's more true below Mission where the river is broader and subject to tides. The current is most often mild or moderate and fish spread out over much of it. SFAB can't make the fish move into the river any faster by getting an opening now or a week from now. Just my 2 cents.

lol i guess its a good thing fishing for cutthroat is not determined by your same rules of there must be abundance or keep it closed. Surly you of all people understand that.

There is thousands of pinks in the river right now if people want to and par take in a fishery with little to no by catch, even if the chances are very low let them, There is really no reason not to, especially given the IN season forecast, given that the fishery will be closed September 18th. We are not a commercial fishery, there does not need to millions.

not to mention pink run timing has been trending earlier as well.

stop acting like a curmudgeon

Let people get back on the Fraser where they can have space

This is some of the worst DFO management I've ever seen, They need to go back managing fisheries and not people. They should be acting as public servant and not political pawns, I would be disgusted to be part of DFO right now, such a shame management has became. We sit a twiddle our thumbs while the Americans go out and fish.

UNITED STATES FRASER RIVER PANEL AREA WATERS
TREATY TRIBAL FISHERY:
Areas 4B, 5, and 6C: Extend for drift gillnet fishing from 12 p.m. (noon), Tuesday,
August 22, 2023 through 12 p.m. (noon), Friday, August 25, 2023. Sockeye must be released.
Areas 6, 7, and 7A: Open for net fishing from 5 a.m. through 9 p.m., Wednesday, August
23, 2023 and 5 a.m. through 9 p.m., Friday, August 25, 2023. Sockeye must be released.
ALL CITIZEN FISHERY:
Areas 7 and 7A: Open for purse seine fishing from 5 a.m. through 9 p.m., Thursday,
August 24, 2023 and 5 a.m. through 9 p.m., Friday, August 25, 2023. Sockeye must be released.
Areas 7 and 7A: Open for drift gillnet fishing from 8 a.m. through 11:59 p.m., Thursday,
August 24, 2023 and 8 a.m. through 11:59 p.m., Friday, August 25, 2023. Sockeye must be
released.
Areas 7: Open for reef net fishing 5 a.m. through 9 p.m., Wednesday, August 23, 2023,
5 a.m. through 9 p.m., Thursday, August 24, 2023, and 5 a.m. through 9 p.m., Friday, August 25,
2023. Sockeye must be released.
The next in-season meeting of the Panel is scheduled to occur on Friday, August 25, 2023.

[RalphH]

Of course the US has a better system than ours ...and it's our own fault. But you don't comprehend that.

It takes millions of fish in the lower Fraser to make good fishing. You don't know this because you don't do it.

You of course don't fish freshwater much. But you have a lot of opinions about it. I am sure your perspective is influenced by how many pinks you can catch outside at the mouth, in the chuck & not the river. That is fine! However all I am trying to tell people if they open the Fraser tomorrow don't swarm down there expecting to catch limits of pink salmon. They will likely be skunked.  Go back and read the reports for 2021.

You are also dead wrong about the trend is earlier. Most other Canadian rivers are weeks late. We are in the midst of long drought. Historically all salmon species tend to delay their migration upstream in such conditions

[chardeemacdenis]

How does flossing sockeye have anything to do with fishing for pinks on the lower Fraser below mission bridge.

The same actors that proudly displayed their misidentified fish, got tickets, and those that didn't get caught will be out for an opening in the lower Fraser. Right now the First Nations chinook fishery explicitly excludes sockeye to the point where DFO has met fishers at the launch and forced them to dump sockeye that had already died in their net. The evidence is pretty clear that some rec anglers aren't sufficiently qualified so as long as DFO is forcing FN to dump sockeye I doubt there is going to be a hurry to open up any part of the Fraser where misidentified fish are harder to police. It will open up eventually but there'll be so many pinks around bycatch becomes negligible. Unless of course the late sockeye come back less than expected then its off to the Vedder canal for spawners

[wildmanyeah]

Of course the US has a better system than ours ...and it's our own fault. But you don't comprehend that.

It takes millions of fish in the lower Fraser to make good fishing. You don't know this because you don't do it.

You of course don't fish freshwater much. But you have a lot of opinions about it. I am sure your perspective is influenced by how many pinks you can catch outside at the mouth, in the chuck & not the river. That is fine! However all I am trying to tell people if they open the Fraser tomorrow don't swarm down there expecting to catch limits of pink salmon. They will likely be skunked.  Go back and read the reports for 2021.

You are also dead wrong about the trend is earlier. Most other Canadian rivers are weeks late. We are in the midst of long drought. Historically all salmon species tend to delay their migration upstream in such conditions

I am not the one that said they are Early and have been trending early in recent years PSC did if you actually read the reports u touted earlier you would know that.  I also acknowledged there's not a lot of pinks in the system but that doesn't mean people should not have the opportunity to fish for them.

If they are returning later then that would mean a much larger forecast.  Yes i know its based on marine but in river is usually 10 days to 14 later.  Yes i know some portion of pinks will delay at the mouth, always happens but they only have so much reserves and will move. Will see the numbers over the next 10 days in river go way up.  DFO told us for example early Stuart sockeye only have 3 days worth of storage.


Historical timing distribution
• Pink timing in marine areas in recent years has shifted earlier
• Area 20 dates since 2009 have ranged from August 17th to August 29th

≥ 70% of the run size has been accounted for in catch + escapement. Good indication of run size; peak fo the run has been observed at
Mission, uncertainty relates to seaward abundancePink run size based on timing
Catch+Escapement To Date: 34,000
Based on timing of 13-Aug 50% Date 17,063,500
Based on timing of 14-Aug 50% Date 20,397,500
Based on timing of 15-Aug 50% Date 21,433,000
Based on timing of 16-Aug 50% Date 21,886,000
Based on timing of 17-Aug 50% Date 23,511,000
*Based on % seaward in 2015, 2017, 2019 and 2021 if timing is later than 17-Aug
*Equal to double the reconstructed abundance if timing is earlier than 18-Aug

To bad DFO continues to manage the recreation fishery into extinction with fan boys like yourself cheering them on.  Piss poor, im sure will see you gloating come the steelhead closure too.

Also I don’t know why u take it so personal every time we talk about opening the Fraser, you were mad and argument about sockeye last year, pinks before that

Don’t no why you get so pissy

DFO is constantly fishing the tail end of runs

[wildmanyeah]

The same actors that proudly displayed their misidentified fish, got tickets, and those that didn't get caught will be out for an opening in the lower Fraser. Right now the First Nations chinook fishery explicitly excludes sockeye to the point where DFO has met fishers at the launch and forced them to dump sockeye that had already died in their net. The evidence is pretty clear that some rec anglers aren't sufficiently qualified so as long as DFO is forcing FN to dump sockeye I doubt there is going to be a hurry to open up any part of the Fraser where misidentified fish are harder to police. It will open up eventually but there'll be so many pinks around bycatch becomes negligible. Unless of course the late sockeye come back less than expected then its off to the Vedder canal for spawners

So Rec for pink cant open because FN have to dump sockeye, If you think they are dumping lots now wait till they dump all the pinks across the lower mainland

sounds about right for DFO these days

[wildmanyeah]

The same actors that proudly displayed their misidentified fish, got tickets, and those that didn't get caught will be out for an opening in the lower Fraser. Right now the First Nations chinook fishery explicitly excludes sockeye to the point where DFO has met fishers at the launch and forced them to dump sockeye that had already died in their net. The evidence is pretty clear that some rec anglers aren't sufficiently qualified so as long as DFO is forcing FN to dump sockeye I doubt there is going to be a hurry to open up any part of the Fraser where misidentified fish are harder to police. It will open up eventually but there'll be so many pinks around bycatch becomes negligible. Unless of course the late sockeye come back less than expected then its off to the Vedder canal for spawners

I will bring this up at tomorrows meeting thanks
DFO retracted done earlier statements that FN management is not influencing their decisions in the lower Fraser Rec. It’s post like these tho thst clearly shows it is.

[RalphH]

Historical timing distribution
• Pink timing in marine areas in recent years has shifted earlier
• Area 20 dates since 2009 have ranged from August 17th to August 29th

≥ 70% of the run size has been accounted for in catch + escapement. Good indication of run size; peak fo the run has been observed at
Mission, uncertainty relates to seaward abundancePink run size based on timing
Catch+Escapement To Date: 34,000
Based on timing of 13-Aug 50% Date 17,063,500
Based on timing of 14-Aug 50% Date 20,397,500
Based on timing of 15-Aug 50% Date 21,433,000
Based on timing of 16-Aug 50% Date 21,886,000
Based on timing of 17-Aug 50% Date 23,511,000
*Based on % seaward in 2015, 2017, 2019 and 2021 if timing is later than 17-Aug
*Equal to double the reconstructed abundance if timing is earlier than 18-Aug

these are neither catch or escapement  numbers based on previous cycles and a variety of timings. Escapement as of yesterday was about 131,000. Total catch is about 900k ... a million total of an estimate of 17 million. 

[wildmanyeah]

If you don’t like the things I have to say perhaps someone with a wee bit more experience in fishies may

All: Below are the 2023 PSC test-fishing seine catches, compared (to brood year) for Area 20 (San Juan) and Area 12 (Blinkhorn) plotted in graphs, to August 20.

The 2023 catch rates remain very high for Pinks (7x parental [brood] year in Area 20; 4x parental year in Area 12), for a 2021 brood-year return of approximately 8 million fish.

The catches are also comparatively strong for Sockeye (17x parental year in Area 20; 2x parental returns in Area 12, for a return of 600,000 fish) relative to the weak returns for 2019.

On Friday the PSC increased the return to the Fraser River to 17 million Pinks, a large upgrade over the 6.1 million initially predicted.  Based on PSC test fishery seine catches, Sockeye also seem to be stronger than brood, but the in-season numbers are not in yet for the "Summers".

So, the question to DFO is: what is the justification in keeping the Fraser River angler out of the water for Pinks any longer?  The Sockeye Salmon bycatch mortality must be the only sticking point.  And if it is, what is the estimate that DFO has for the numbers that would be expected to die as a result of prosecuting this fishery?  We have now been told that these decisions as to whether-or-not we go in the river are not political, hence they must be based on some sort of calculated/estimated numbers.

Total and proportional rod and reel by-catch catch and release mortality on a much stronger Sockeye Salmon run (2023) than brood 2019 cannot be significant for a Fraser River rod-and-reel fishery, especially considering both conservation and FSC needs are being dealt with in other ways. Five or six years ago I did an analyses of the rod and reel bycatch (e.g., sox) for the Fraser River creel survey data that DFO collected over a number of previous years.  Even with bottom bouncing taking place, the total and proportional bycatch C&R Sockeye Salmon mortality by Fraser River anglers upstream of Mission was almost indiscernible as a rounding error.

I note that there presently is by-catch mortality of sox in the Chinook Salmon gillnet FSC fisheries that are currently being prosecuted in the Fraser River.  These later-summer Fraser River Chinook Salmon returns in 2023 are as strong as they have been over the last 20 years (based on the Albion test fishery values), yet we are also being kept out of the water for these stocks in respect to harvesting this species.  Why?  Twenty years ago it wasn't a problem for us to be in the river harvesting Chinooks at this time of the year for these numbers of returns, so why not now?

Angler by-catch of sockeye cannot be an issue if bottom bouncing is limited, or restricted, as it was in the 2021 Pink Salmon sport fishery regulations for a fishery on these stocks, and that was allowed in the Fraser River upstream of Mission for Pink Salmon that year. https://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=250216&ID=all .  I am not aware of any outstanding problems with that Pink Salmon sport fishery in 2021.  I add that the Thompson River was opened on Sept 11, as well, for Pinks. https://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=250186&ID=all  I am not aware of any by-catch issues on the Thompson River watershed.  Further, the tidal portion of the Fraser River was opened on Sept 3, 2023, with no apparent bycatch issues https://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=249849&ID=all Notably, downstream of Mission, in the slower tidal waters, the numbers of bottom bouncing is limited-to-non-existent in my experience.

Last week we were also told by DFO that the total 2021 tidal + non-tidal pre-fishery expected catch numbers were going to be ~25,000 pieces, but apparently this did no come close to reaching this estimated value in 2021.  I am assuming that the 2023 harvest would be similar in magnitude, but adjusted for the larger run.  These are small harvests relative to returns.  Moreover, this is a niche fishery that is mostly undertaken by family and beginner fishers fishing off of the banks in the Mission/Abbotsford area.  And by anglers that don't have the resources to go afar and capitalize on expensive gear, boats, accommodation.

As of last Weds, in our ONLINE the Fraser angler Pink and Sockeye angling meeting we were told that the harvestable surplus (with a pre-season value of 6.1 million for Pinks) was 2.6 with the upgraded run number of 8.6 million.  With a subsequent upgrade to 17 million on Friday, this TAC is presumably ~10 million fish.  And I am assuming that there will be some significant EO fisheries as a result of this large return.  So, why not us, especially if we integrate the 2021 rules and suggestions as per that year's fishery openings, which seemed to be adequate for that year?

MARVIN ROSENAU

[canoeboy]

There may not be a crap ton of pinks in the system as of right now but to be honest I would enjoy the opportunity to atleast attempt it, spend some evening after work trying to catch my supper. And I know my chances of bycatch sockeye will be almost non existent. I know bad apples ruin it for the rest of us, but I can't see many sockeye being caught on the lower fraser. My work is on the side of the fraser in maple ridge and I e been seeing a fair bit of action out there as of recently. I don't mind waiting at all but given the opportunity I would be out there. It would be nice to have DFO recognize that the recreational fishery in the lower fraser has minimal impact on sockeye escapement.

[RalphH]

If you don’t like the things I have to say perhaps someone with a wee bit more experience in fishies may

Exactly what are you saying?

the below, particularly the openings quoted for the non-tidal section is more consistent with what I am saying.

Angler by-catch of sockeye cannot be an issue if bottom bouncing is limited, or restricted, as it was in the 2021 Pink Salmon sport fishery regulations for a fishery on these stocks, and that was allowed in the Fraser River upstream of Mission for Pink Salmon that year. https://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=250216&ID=all .  I am not aware of any outstanding problems with that Pink Salmon sport fishery in 2021.  I add that the Thompson River was opened on Sept 11, as well, for Pinks. https://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=250186&ID=all  I am not aware of any by-catch issues on the Thompson River watershed.  Further, the tidal portion of the Fraser River was opened on Sept 3, 2023, with no apparent bycatch issues https://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=249849&ID=all Notably, downstream of Mission, in the slower tidal waters, the numbers of bottom bouncing is limited-to-non-existent in my experience.

...

As of last Weds, in our ONLINE the Fraser angler Pink and Sockeye angling meeting we were told that the harvestable surplus (with a pre-season value of 6.1 million for Pinks) was 2.6 with the upgraded run number of 8.6 million.  With a subsequent upgrade to 17 million on Friday, this TAC is presumably ~10 million fish.  And I am assuming that there will be some significant EO fisheries as a result of this large return.  So, why not us, especially if we integrate the 2021 rules and suggestions as per that year's fishery openings, which seemed to be adequate for that year?

MARVIN ROSENAU

All I have said is why rush to open the lower river when there are not many pinks in the river as yet. A Labour Day opening is more consistent with what's been done in the last couple of cycles and timing of fish movement in the lower river tends to favor the best fishing in the following week or 2.

Are we both happy now?

I have also said I favor a quicker opening of the mouth.

[redside1]

I will bring this up at tomorrows meeting thanks
DFO retracted done earlier statements that FN management is not influencing their decisions in the lower Fraser Rec. It’s post like these tho thst clearly shows it is.

100% DFO is totally managing the fishery for one group. Constitution gives access to FSC fish but does not give exclusive opportunity to one user group. It's beyond a joke how DFO manages all fisheries in BC . Nowhere does science really mean anything.

[redside1]

Exactly what are you saying?

the below, particularly the openings quoted for the non-tidal section is more consistent with what I am saying?

All i have said is why rush to open the lower river when there are not many pinks in the river as yet. A Labour Day opening is more consistent with what's been done in the last couple of cycles and timing of fish movement in the lower river tends to favor the best fishing in the following week or 2.

Are we both happy now?

I have also said I favor a quicker opening of the mouth.

 why "rush" an opening? because fishing is about expectations and hope to catch not guaranteed catching. Plus with the interior coho and steelhead closures looming in the middle of September the season will become incredibly short. why open the Vedder/Chilliwack on July 1 for Chinook fishing? Very rarely is there many or any there then. Why not wait until July 20th when the run will be in? That's what it appears you are advocating for.

[redside1]

and now there is an estimated return of 110,000 white chinook to the Harrison but there will be not sports fishery allowed on them.
Outstanding management by DFO to keep this fishery closed.