Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Old Black Dog on November 19, 2006, 08:20:54 PM
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Since the Liberals said at the last election that they would ensure that we would have a world class fishery.
Please tell us what they ( The Minister) has done to ensure this would happen.
I am finding it hard to think of any positive things, in fact I can think of none.
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I like the 21 million dollars they provided for the Living Rivers Trust Fund. Chilliwack River Action Committee has make application for funding and we are in the final stages of receiving $40,000 to continue work on the clay slides on the Chilliwack River.
On visting the Cowichan River this past summer the government has been supportive and contributed funds to the work on the Stoltz Slide that we toured. I am sure there is many projects the Provincial Government that they have been working on.
A good time and place for forum members to post what they feel the government should be doing and have not. I will be pleased to try and pass them on when we meet with Mr Penner in the near future. ;D ;D
I know the treaty's that are going on are a concern to many.
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Thompson River Steelhead, when are they planning to do something?They have had reports on reports?
Cutthroat trout?
Steelhead on the Coquitlam?
Has the Minister stopped enhancement of the Cheahis for Steelhead?
Chris, name one river that you fished on the lower mainland that the runs of Steelhead are as they were 20 years ago.
Do not count the Vedder.
Now do the same for Cutts and tell me how many rivers even have any left?
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Thompson River Steelhead, when are they planning to do something?They have had reports on reports?
Cutthroat trout?
Steelhead on the Coquitlam?
Has the Minister stopped enhancement of the Cheahis for Steelhead?
Chris, name one river that you fished on the lower mainland that the runs of Steelhead are as they were 20 years ago.
Do not count the Vedder.
Now do the same for Cutts and tell me how many rivers even have any left?
They release hatchery cutthroat in the Alouette River seen them do it when I was tossing flies. If they do it for the Alouette they must do it for other rivers as well.
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Thompson River Steelhead, when are they planning to do something?They have had reports on reports?
Cutthroat trout?
Steelhead on the Coquitlam?
Has the Minister stopped enhancement of the Cheahis for Steelhead?
Chris, name one river that you fished on the lower mainland that the runs of Steelhead are as they were 20 years ago.
Do not count the Vedder.
Now do the same for Cutts and tell me how many rivers even have any left?
Thanks for the questions.
Of course do not know all the answers to them but will discuss with Barry in our next meeting.
I find the cutthroat healthy in in the Upper Valley as during a few days of brood stock fishing have seen a good number including lots of feeders. Close to 60 fish are taken each year for brood.
Brood stock takes place on the Chehalis for steelhead.
Please go into more details on the other questions you have asked so I am more up todate on what you see as the problems and how you think they should be addressed then I will see what I can do.
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It is nice to see that everyone else is happy with MOE and the present situation of Steelhead, Cutthroat and bull trout?
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I know that on the allouette if it was not for bc hydro that system would not be the way it is and if the prison did not do all the work at the hatchery that hatchery would be closed. How many hatcheries have closed since the liberals came into power? I know that the hatchery on the coquitlam closed due to funding cuts. I find that the liberals just keep cutting and cutting and when it is almost to late they throw a little money to try and restore the systems. The money that they throw at the systems I am sure does not come close to what they have saved from the funding cuts and the money that they get from us as fishermen/women. One question you should ask is where is the money that they get from our fees because all that money that they get from us sure is not going back into the fisheries. I think that the minister gets a failing grade for this. Also find out exactly how much money is brought in from our fees and how much of that money goes back into the fisheries. I would bet that it is less than a third.
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I know that on the allouette if it was not for bc hydro that system would not be the way it is and if the prison did not do all the work at the hatchery that hatchery would be closed. How many hatcheries have closed since the liberals came into power? I know that the hatchery on the coquitlam closed due to funding cuts. I find that the liberals just keep cutting and cutting and when it is almost to late they throw a little money to try and restore the systems. The money that they throw at the systems I am sure does not come close to what they have saved from the funding cuts and the money that they get from us as fishermen/women. One question you should ask is where is the money that they get from our fees because all that money that they get from us sure is not going back into the fisheries. I think that the minister gets a failing grade for this. Also find out exactly how much money is brought in from our fees and how much of that money goes back into the fisheries. I would bet that it is less than a third.
I too would like to know these stats. As I posted sometime ago only 1 dollar from the salmon conservation surcharge stamp goes to help salmon and the rest is for general revenue which IMO is a blatant rip off. It would be interesting to find out what income angling generates in licences sales alone and compare that to funding.
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I am not at all happy with the changes that were made a few years back with regards to management and operation of the chilliwack and chehalis hatcheries. Since then i have seen vast reductions in coho numbers on both systems as well as increase in white spring on the vedder. Also this not having enough funds to do 100% clipping on 100% of the fish released by the hatcheries is retarted at best. I could go on and on and on...... I have found cuttie populations in the areas i fish to be holding thier own but i only target a select few systems.
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Lets try this and if you think fish are not on the agenda think again.
Friends and colloquies - The president of the B.C. Wildlife Federation has advised me that he and the Federation directors are in very difficult negotiations with the representatives of the B.C. Government over the allocation of wildlife between resident hunters and the guiding industry. Wilf made strong reference to this in his message in the last issue of the Outdoor Edge.
The simple facts as I understand them and as I have experienced is that this current government is bound and determined to privatize our fish and wildlife along with everything else. Their current plans for allocation will see
more and more of our hunting opportunities turned over to the control of the guides.
President Wilf and I are asking that you please take a minute today to send a short message to Environment Minister Barry Penner with copies to your own MLA and the people listed below. Minister Penner's e mail address is Barry.Penner.MLA@leg.bc.ca.
Copies to:
nancy.wilkin@gov.bc.ca
al.martin@gov.bc.ca
tom.ethier@gov.bc.ca
James LeaderNDP, Carol
E-mail Address(es):
carol.james.mla@leg.bc.ca
Your e mail should be short and to the point, no need to rant, just tell these people and most importantly your own MLA that their current plan is not acceptable.
I enclose a copy of my e-mail sent today.
Do it today!
Bill Otway
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Otway
To: Penner Hon Barry Min Environ
Cc: Martin, Al D WLAP:EX ; Tom Ethier ; Nancy Wilkins ADM ; Harry Lali ; Carol James LeaderNDP
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: Wildlife Allocation
Mr. Minister: I have become aware of the current plans of your government to increase that allocation of hunting opportunities for non-residents by allocating more animals to the Guiding industry.
Please be advised that this action is totally contrary to the previous government policy of B.C. fish and wildlife resources being allocated to B.C. residents first.
Be also further advised that I and the hundreds of thousands of other B.C. resident hunters and anglers do not support the current allocation proposals of your government.
Bill Otway
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it will be a cold day in hell when i am prevented from my yearly harvest of game meat via some guide allocated harvest agreement or what ever. I guess the B.C. gov has it in it's mind to create a whole lotta poachers. Will somebody please burn these idiot liberals right outta this freakin country. I'll be happy if the Liberal party itself is just simply abolished and dismantled.
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What has the NDP done to improve fishing ?
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What has the NDP done to improve fishing ?
What has this got to do with what has the Liberals done?
The Liberals are in charge and they made the promise. Lets deal with what they have done.
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I posted about bottom trawling the other week:
"The trawling is said to be devastating slow-growing fish like orange roughy. The ships drag large nets along the bottom, a practice likened to clearcutting and strip-mining, that destroys not just fish stocks but habitat on the sea bottom.
The UN General Assembly resumes negotiations today on banning the practice. U.S. President George W. Bush announced a month ago the U.S. will join the U.K., Australia and New Zealand in supporting a temporary moratorium on deep-sea trawling in international waters. Canadian officials oppose the ban, fearing it might lead to restrictions on trawling in Canadian waters."
As the last sentence says Canadian, and for that matter BC government supports this wasteful and non-sustainable approach. I just don't care about my local fishing hole. I see the whole shebang going down the tube because are governments aren't doing what they were elected for and swore to do. To uphold the laws and look after our best interests. Not there buddies financial interests. Unfortunately the current BC government has only cut back on stewarding our fishing resources.
I don't think having some concerned citizens begging for a minuscule amount of money from the "Living Rivers Trust Fund" so they can do there best, is any answer. It just leaves lots of other rivers in the "chump change trust fund". We pay more for conservation stamps and this is their answer. Pooh on there foot wafts my way again. :(
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I am still firmly of the beleif that the gov's agenda is to see fraser salmon stocks crash completely. This would solve the continual push for fish allocation between the 3 main user groups, would solve the native side of the fish argument, would enable the fraser to be dammed for hydro production and this alone would generate more provincial and federal incomes than the entire sports/commercial/native fishery combined..... that's prolly even after they pay off the natives with subsidies from the electricity genereated from thier river. I know that i am just spewing what ifs but really, we all know they've thought about it. I have no answers when it comes to what the hell the gov thinks they are doing with fisheries management as a whole BUT, in my opinion it starts here.... Ban open pen fish farms and aquaculture projects from waterways and migration routes for herring and salmon... ie.. the entire west coast, ban bottom trawling in any canadian waters... CUT JIMMY PATTERSON's fishing fleet by about 3/4, continue improving river habitat for spawning and rearing of salmon trout and steelhead, CULL all bass populations in zones that interact with native trout/salmon and sturgeon, stopping chum roe fisheries during migration timing of fraser/thompson and interior coho and steelhead stocks. I could go on and on and on and on...... Until they do these things.... everything else is like pissin up a rope... or into the wind.... you pick the analogie that fits.
I do like Mr. Penner's stance on many things but we need to see action and whole hell of a lot of it.
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Since the Liberals said at the last election that they would ensure that we would have a world class fishery.
Please tell us what they ( The Minister) has done to ensure this would happen.
I am finding it hard to think of any positive things, in fact I can think of none.
OBD, perhaps you could provide the exact quote or provide a link to your question. I have no idea what you are talking about and you come across like you have a beef with some people on this forum that might be Barry Penner supporters or Liberal supporters.
You may not like the things the current government is doing with the sport fishing or hunting management but what are you gonna do to change it? Getting a bunch of people to bitch about the current situation may enlighten people to bad policy but what alternative to you provide? Do the NDP, Greens, or any other party have some progressive Fish management platform?
I personally don`t know much about the politics of this all but I sure know when it comes to talking about it lots of people get mad at First Nations, Government, Americans and poachers and snaggers but only few of these people do anything to change things themselves.
Cheers
Nuggy
First you just have to look at the promises made by the Liberal Government on the last election.
Second, they made the promise, not the NDP or greens.
Therefore it makes sense to review how they are doing at one of their promises.
You do not feel that the politicians that made a promise should be held to account?
They might think that they are doing a great job and the public ( You) may not have the same perception.
So, you think they did a great job say in regards to the Cheakamus?
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I'll say it again in simpler words.... NO LIBERALS IN POLITICS = A BETTER CANADA
and the NDP ain't no option either.
I'm so sick and tired of having a convicted drunk driver as a premier.... who the heck voted for this clown anyways....
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An example is PUBLIC CONSULTATIONS.
Let me ask you when do you remember the last one put on by the department?
Using the example of giving guides more allocation than the residents.
Why is the province not holding meetings throughout the province to ask the people what they wish?
Why did the province not hold meetings in for instant Duncan with regards to changing the fishing regulations on the Cowichan river?
They take e-mail input but will not show an independent the results to ensure that the facts they tell us are true.
( They have been caught up in this already)
The arrogance of the ministry is obvious as they feel that public input is not wanted.
That is not acceptable.
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I think they looked after the Cheakamus liked they looked after BC Rail, they helped their buddies out. In 100 years you'll see fish(Stealhead) in the Cheakamus like they were, in 1000 you'll see the return of BC rail back to the citizens of BC. Way to go. I wish I was there bestest friend so I could line my pockets. Not! It's pure pap covered in spinned crap fed to the public. At least the internet is not owned by big media so you can come closer to the facts than the news usually does. Party members toady the line of the party they represent....unfortunately
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OBD, all I am asking for is that you provide a quote or more preferably a link to the questions you posed. Just saying someone said something with no proof to back it up is bad protocol and provides us the readers with trusting your word. You would come across far more credible if you didn`t have to make me go search around to find out if what you are saying is true or not.
And what is your solution to the Liberals management strategy? To start a bitch fest or to organise a solution to the problems the fisheries face? I am interested in hearing your perspective on solutions to the problems faced in Fisheries management rather than a bitchfest of the problems that exist.
Cheers
Nuggy
http://www.bcliberals.com/media/BCLIB_PlatformBook.pdf
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OBD, all I am asking for is that you provide a quote or more preferably a link to the questions you posed. Just saying someone said something with no proof to back it up is bad protocol and provides us the readers with trusting your word. You would come across far more credible if you didn`t have to make me go search around to find out if what you are saying is true or not.
And what is your solution to the Liberals management strategy? To start a bitch fest or to organise a solution to the problems the fisheries face? I am interested in hearing your perspective on solutions to the problems faced in Fisheries management rather than a bitchfest of the problems that exist.
Cheers
Nuggy
An example is PUBLIC CONSULTATIONS.
Let me ask you when do you remember the last one put on by the department?
Using the example of giving guides more allocation than the residents.
Why is the province not holding meetings throughout the province to ask the people what they wish?
Why did the province not hold meetings in for instant Duncan with regards to changing the fishing regulations on the Cowichan river?
They take e-mail input but will not show an independent the results to ensure that the facts they tell us are true.
( They have been caught up in this already)
The arrogance of the ministry is obvious as they feel that public input is not wanted.
That is not acceptable.
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http://www.bcliberals.com/media/BCLIB_PlatformBook.pdf
Thanks for the link to the B.C Liberal party platform, now what page would I find the part where Premier Cambell or some other Liberal promises to ensure we have a world class fishery?
OBD, I am not a Liberal party supporter or voter and I don`t come to the FWR to get involved in politics. I personally think you are doing this because there may be regulation changes coming for the Fraser River sockeye fishery that you are not happy with. I know there are several members here who are actively involved in trying to get the fishing regulations reviewed and my feeling is you don`t agree with them. I could be wrong but my hunch is just that.
I will leave this thread alone now and hope that kids like my nephew and his school mates in grade 4 who go clean rivers of garbage and release salmon fry will quietly lead the way forward with their conservation, selfless non monetary motives and eagerness to pursue the mysteries and joys of life without political promises and debates. One day those kids will feel proud that they did something for the fisheries that their children's, children's, children can use and enjoy.
Sorry if I hijacked your thread OBD.
Cheers
Try goals #4.
You must be new as the Provincial Government is not in charge of the Fraser Fishery.
That falls under the Fed's/DFO.
So in answer to you this has nothing to do with the Fraser, it is a question on how do you think the PROVINCE is doing in relation to their promise?
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"OBD, I am not a Liberal party supporter or voter and ":::
Should probably encourage people to vote. I will vote for the person who will do the least damage and the most good. Place is going downhill othewise.
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I am with alwaysfishing. I believe that the bc liberals are trying to run our native stocks to the point that we have to rely on the mush, mercury filled, dyed red farmed fish. I wonder how many of those owners of the farms are friends with the liberals. I too want to see fish for our future generations but if the liberals continue on this path the numbers will definatly decline.
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It is nice to see that everyone else is happy with MOE and the present situation of Steelhead, Cutthroat and bull trout?
Happy overall with MoE? Not a chance, but I do realize some what how the system works. The people below Mr. Penner will still be there after the next eclection or cabinet shuffle and he will most likely be gone. The gov. employees that make the descions really do not listen to the minister, only nod their headds until they are no longer there and do what they really want to do. Mr.Penner may have his heart in the right place but I feel there is overall little he can really do to change the present situation where each region is run on it's own without there really being very much continuity in the Ministry through out the provinve.
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Yes the Minister gets replaced, however the power brokers do not and they must be held accountable.
You do understand that the rules are the Minister must not be embarrassed.
That rule has harsh consequences for those that do.
Therefore, the Minister while he is in power has the hammer and must use it.
This was put up as a question as to a promise by the Liberal party and it is time to evaluate what they have done.
The problem is if no one gets upset and says well that is what politicians always do then there will not change.
So again, I ask are you happy so far and if not let it fly.
As noted people are watching and who knows they might have to actually do something.
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As noted people are watching
WHERE???? I dont know nutthing about that goat!!! ;D
Dog-- you is on a roll wth this one BUTTTTT... Politicians dont have to tell the truth or follow through on promises-- you are old and should know that!!!
Robbie has got it right, however. The non-elected mandarines REALLY are the ones that slow the pace of change. After that Chek hatchery fiasco where the bios made the Minister look like a fool, they should have all been demoted or removed--- didnt happen. That shows who REALLY runs the show. :-[
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I guess not many remember a number of years ago when the NDP under good old Moe was going to scrap the hatchery steelhead program. The FVSS launched a very large writing campaign sending in a few hundred letters, each in an individual envelope with a stamp on each. I know there was hundred's as my boys and I did all the licking of them. Also we took the letters to several sporting good outlets for those interested in signing and we ran up a few k's on the vehicle. We believe it helped as the changed there mind on it. This method is better than a petion I think. Of course if every one concern ed would write there own letter that is better but only a few will do this.
I would suggest if OBD and others have things they would like to see changed put together a form letter listing the shortfalls and soulutions as you see them. Circulate them to sporting good shops across the Province pick them up and send them in. If you wish to do this project I will deliver them to Barry personally if you wish.
Nothing better than taking some action instead of just taking about it on fishing forums or in the coffee shop. ;D ;D
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There is only one thing at the moment that the Minister must address.
That is "PUBLIC CONSULTATIONS".
His mandarins are making decisions without any consultations with the people who's money they are spending and effecting their fishing and hunting.
Tell him that Chris.
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Robbie has got it right, however. The non-elected mandarines REALLY are the ones that slow the pace of change. After that Chek hatchery fiasco where the bios made the Minister look like a fool, they should have all been demoted or removed--- didnt happen. That shows who REALLY runs the show. :-[
Ok...I have been reading this with great interest, and although I know very little about the politics of all this, I do feel strongly about the issues, and would like to educate myself on some of this...Can someone please elaborate on Schenley's Statement above? Non-elected mandarines? How did the bios make the minister look like a fool? What exactly was the fiasco? I attended the conference on cheakamus steelhead at ubc, I heard some of the debates concerning what could be done, from fisheries scientists and the rest...but as far as who REALLY runs the show, could someone shed some light on this?
I guess not many remember a number of years ago when the NDP under good old Moe was going to scrap the hatchery steelhead program. The FVSS launched a very large writing campaign sending in a few hundred letters, each in an individual envelope with a stamp on each. I know there was hundred's as my boys and I did all the licking of them. Also we took the letters to several sporting good outlets for those interested in signing and we ran up a few k's on the vehicle. We believe it helped as the changed there mind on it. This method is better than a petion I think. Of course if every one concern ed would write there own letter that is better but only a few will do this.
I would suggest if OBD and others have things they would like to see changed put together a form letter listing the shortfalls and soulutions as you see them. Circulate them to sporting good shops across the Province pick them up and send them in. If you wish to do this project I will deliver them to Barry personally if you wish.
Nothing better than taking some action instead of just taking about it on fishing forums or in the coffee shop. ;D ;D
There are many different factions trying to solve a problem here. I understand from a "bio's" perspective many of the difficulties scientists face when presenting their findings to the powers that be...often their recommendations play second fiddle to personal agenda's, economic issues, red tape, etc, etc, etc...It is clear to me that even if there were someone in power that were able to weild said "hammer", getting half of those involved in the resource to agree on what needs to be done would be a task in itself. I am interested in seeing if even we can agree on what changes need to be made...there is this fine balance between what is good for the fish, and what allows the economy generated from them exist. I certainly agree it's all #$@$#$# up, however I don't see it as anywhere close to a solution. I like the idea of this letter Chris has mentioned, I think that the words in such letters can get into a person's head, might even influence how they think about the issue, and bring to light concerns that might otherwise have been overlooked...however, what would someone put in a letter such as this?
OBD, you make some interesting points, as do many of the others here, but I think perhaps tackling the problem amongst ourselves a bit first, might shed some light on how difficult it is to come to a solution. I wonder if we could start our own list of things we don't like, and then try to solve each item on that list considering the economic side of the issue and the conservation and enhancement side. It could be the start of a rough draft for a letter that many of us could write and send out. I know I would be willing to do so.
Having said that, if we can't agree on what the issues are, or come to solutions that we feel will be effective, even in the least bit, then how can we expect to be anything other than caught up in the same stagnant ineffective management dilemna that got us here in the first place?
I would like to try and list many of the issues at stake, if anyone is willing to oblige, as I think myself and others could learn quite a bit from hashing it all out here plain as day....
1) The fraser chum fishery...interference with steelhead returns to interior fraser tributaries. I agree this is a problem, but how do you solve it? First of all, it is not as simple as closing it down. The economic losses to commercial and native fleets cause such a powerful uproar that the ministry would never have the balls to do anything about it...but, I wonder, what nets do they use to harvest this fishery? Is there an alternative that has a less severe impact on Thompson steelhead, but still allows for the chum harvest? Might the government agree to some changes if such changes allow them to be proactive but don't hurt too much?
There, that's one issue, there are many others, and I am interested in trying to put a finger, or ten, on the issues at stake here...
thx,
rib
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Good stuff Ribwart that is what we need, Ihope others do the same as I have found generalization are usually not too effective. If others will join you on other concerns, then put them in a letter form addressed to Mr Penner and most likely it would not hurt to add Hearn the Federal Fisheries Minister as well. I would suggest copies of this letter are made with space for anglers that agree to sign, as well as print their name with their full address. I would suggest somewhere on this letter ask for an return answer.
Have copies of this put in sports shops by someone designated to a certain region of the Province and they will also be responsible to pick them up and then send to one person that will coordinate this whole effort.
It will take a bit of work to organize all this, someone with lots of time as it is not an easy task.
Then there is two choices, mail each letter in individually as it is more effective that way. It will mean obtaining some funds for stamps etc. if you go that way. The other way is send all the completed forms to me and I will deliver them by hand to the Environment Minister. A copy should also be made of each signed form for further reference and kept on file.
Anyone willing to take up this challenge, it will not be an easy one but will be more worthwhile than just complaing on forums like this about how bad things are.
I know if I was a politician I would pay some heed, wouldn't you.
I know this type of lobby works as I have started 4 groups dealing with politically type issues like this and they have been fairly successful. I will help a I stated above but will have to leave the main job to someone else. With 10 different organizations I think that is enough for now as need sometime to fish too. ;D
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I guess not many remember a number of years ago when the NDP under good old Moe was going to scrap the hatchery steelhead program. The FVSS launched a very large writing campaign sending in a few hundred letters, each in an individual envelope with a stamp on each. I know there was hundred's as my boys and I did all the licking of them. Also we took the letters to several sporting good outlets for those interested in signing and we ran up a few k's on the vehicle. We believe it helped as the changed there mind on it. This method is better than a petion I think. Of course if every one concern ed would write there own letter that is better but only a few will do this.
I would suggest if OBD and others have things they would like to see changed put together a form letter listing the shortfalls and soulutions as you see them. Circulate them to sporting good shops across the Province pick them up and send them in. If you wish to do this project I will deliver them to Barry personally if you wish.
Nothing better than taking some action instead of just taking about it on fishing forums or in the coffee shop. ;D ;D
Chris, they did cut the production of steelhead throughout BC.
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I guess not many remember a number of years ago when the NDP under good old Moe was going to scrap the hatchery steelhead program. The FVSS launched a very large writing campaign sending in a few hundred letters, each in an individual envelope with a stamp on each. I know there was hundred's as my boys and I did all the licking of them. Also we took the letters to several sporting good outlets for those interested in signing and we ran up a few k's on the vehicle. We believe it helped as the changed there mind on it. This method is better than a petion I think. Of course if every one concern ed would write there own letter that is better but only a few will do this.
I would suggest if OBD and others have things they would like to see changed put together a form letter listing the shortfalls and soulutions as you see them. Circulate them to sporting good shops across the Province pick them up and send them in. If you wish to do this project I will deliver them to Barry personally if you wish.
Nothing better than taking some action instead of just taking about it on fishing forums or in the coffee shop. ;D ;D
Chris, they did cut the production of steelhead throughout BC.
Thanks, we need to get it back up where it should be. Will be asking Barry about this. How is the cutthroat situation on the Island. It seems good here in the Upper Valley. Have been doing well the last while during my brood capture trips. Got the biggest I have ever caught yesterday, approaching 3 pounds, 20 inches. Will get more info later on it when they do the DNA etc. on it.
Cheers,
Chris
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Thanks, we need to get it back up where it should be. Will be asking Barry about this. How is the cutthroat situation on the Island. It seems good here in the Upper Valley. Have been doing well the last while during my brood capture trips. Got the biggest I have ever caught yesterday, approaching 3 pounds, 20 inches. Will get more info later on it when they do the DNA etc. on it.
Cheers,
Chris
I agree with Chris. Look at the systems in the states. Some of their systems alone release more smolts than all of B.C.'s smolt releases combined. I'm not saying we should be doing the mass egg takes from returning hatchery fish, I think we should conitue to proctect our gene pool by doing wild brood capture but how about simply expanding on what we already have. Under constant ocean sruvival rates, more smolts released will linearly equal more adults returning.
On the same topic, one question I have always wondered is what effect are the large scale hatchery releases having on our stocks both wild and hatchery. As is my understanding, steelhead occupy a specific niche in the marine environment compeltly different than that of salmon. If this limited niche is being saturated by american fish, perhaps our fish are being out competed for limited resources by these typically larger immature fish.
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I guess not many remember a number of years ago when the NDP under good old Moe was going to scrap the hatchery steelhead program. The FVSS launched a very large writing campaign sending in a few hundred letters, each in an individual envelope with a stamp on each. I know there was hundred's as my boys and I did all the licking of them. Also we took the letters to several sporting good outlets for those interested in signing and we ran up a few k's on the vehicle. We believe it helped as the changed there mind on it. This method is better than a petion I think. Of course if every one concern ed would write there own letter that is better but only a few will do this.
I would suggest if OBD and others have things they would like to see changed put together a form letter listing the shortfalls and soulutions as you see them. Circulate them to sporting good shops across the Province pick them up and send them in. If you wish to do this project I will deliver them to Barry personally if you wish.
Nothing better than taking some action instead of just taking about it on fishing forums or in the coffee shop. ;D ;D
Chris, they did cut the production of steel head throughout BC.
Thanks, we need to get it back up where it should be. Will be asking Barry about this. How is the cutthroat situation on the Island. It seems good here in the Upper Valley. Have been doing well the last while during my brood capture trips. Got the biggest I have ever caught yesterday, approaching 3 pounds, 20 inches. Will get more info later on it when they do the DNA etc. on it.
Cheers,
Chris
First I believe you should check, but i think the Liberals were in power when it was cut?
There is no reason that most rivers on the lower mainland should not have active hatchery programs on them as in most cases they did, however the governments dropped them and in doing so said the were wild.
Well the Coquitlam has had hatchery steelhead from all over including the U.S. and in my mind calling this a wild run is just plain BS.
The Capilano should as well as where do you think the Steelhead will spawn?
Any river with a dam on it should be.
Just my thoughts. Some will disagree but the pressure on the Vedder and the Squamish needs to be lessened and allow people to spread out?
Second, Cutthroat are slim on the Island and I think that you should check the numbers that inch creek used to put out for cutts on the mainland.
I believe that this program was cut and you might want to look into it.
There to my knowledge is little or no cutt hatchery programs going on as there used to be?
"O" by the way they ( THE PROVINCE) want more people fishing, but forgot about the fact that you need fish for this?
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Robbie has got it right, however. The non-elected mandarines REALLY are the ones that slow the pace of change. After that Chek hatchery fiasco where the bios made the Minister look like a fool, they should have all been demoted or removed--- didnt happen. That shows who REALLY runs the show. :-[
Ok...I have been reading this with great interest, and although I know very little about the politics of all this, I do feel strongly about the issues, and would like to educate myself on some of this...Can someone please elaborate on Schenley's Statement above? Non-elected mandarines? How did the bios make the minister look like a fool? What exactly was the fiasco? I attended the conference on cheakamus steelhead at ubc, I heard some of the debates concerning what could be done, from fisheries scientists and the rest...but as far as who REALLY runs the show, could someone shed some light on this?
I guess not many remember a number of years ago when the NDP under good old Moe was going to scrap the hatchery steelhead program. The FVSS launched a very large writing campaign sending in a few hundred letters, each in an individual envelope with a stamp on each. I know there was hundred's as my boys and I did all the licking of them. Also we took the letters to several sporting good outlets for those interested in signing and we ran up a few k's on the vehicle. We believe it helped as the changed there mind on it. This method is better than a petion I think. Of course if every one concern ed would write there own letter that is better but only a few will do this.
I would suggest if OBD and others have things they would like to see changed put together a form letter listing the shortfalls and soulutions as you see them. Circulate them to sporting good shops across the Province pick them up and send them in. If you wish to do this project I will deliver them to Barry personally if you wish.
Nothing better than taking some action instead of just taking about it on fishing forums or in the coffee shop. ;D ;D
There are many different factions trying to solve a problem here. I understand from a "bio's" perspective many of the difficulties scientists face when presenting their findings to the powers that be...often their recommendations play second fiddle to personal agenda's, economic issues, red tape, etc, etc, etc...It is clear to me that even if there were someone in power that were able to weild said "hammer", getting half of those involved in the resource to agree on what needs to be done would be a task in itself. I am interested in seeing if even we can agree on what changes need to be made...there is this fine balance between what is good for the fish, and what allows the economy generated from them exist. I certainly agree it's all #$@$#$# up, however I don't see it as anywhere close to a solution. I like the idea of this letter Chris has mentioned, I think that the words in such letters can get into a person's head, might even influence how they think about the issue, and bring to light concerns that might otherwise have been overlooked...however, what would someone put in a letter such as this?
OBD, you make some interesting points, as do many of the others here, but I think perhaps tackling the problem amongst ourselves a bit first, might shed some light on how difficult it is to come to a solution. I wonder if we could start our own list of things we don't like, and then try to solve each item on that list considering the economic side of the issue and the conservation and enhancement side. It could be the start of a rough draft for a letter that many of us could write and send out. I know I would be willing to do so.
Having said that, if we can't agree on what the issues are, or come to solutions that we feel will be effective, even in the least bit, then how can we expect to be anything other than caught up in the same stagnant ineffective management dilemna that got us here in the first place?
I would like to try and list many of the issues at stake, if anyone is willing to oblige, as I think myself and others could learn quite a bit from hashing it all out here plain as day....
1) The fraser chum fishery...interference with steelhead returns to interior fraser tributaries. I agree this is a problem, but how do you solve it? First of all, it is not as simple as closing it down. The economic losses to commercial and native fleets cause such a powerful uproar that the ministry would never have the balls to do anything about it...but, I wonder, what nets do they use to harvest this fishery? Is there an alternative that has a less severe impact on Thompson steelhead, but still allows for the chum harvest? Might the government agree to some changes if such changes allow them to be proactive but don't hurt too much?
There, that's one issue, there are many others, and I am interested in trying to put a finger, or ten, on the issues at stake here...
thx,
rib
OK, start a thread with the questions you want to discuss and WE will all give it a go.
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Second, Cutthroat are slim on the Island and I think that you should check the numbers that inch creek used to put out for cutts on the mainland.
I believe that this program was cut and you might want to look into it.
Yes...inch creek has cut their production of cutthroat significantly compared to several years ago...
OK, start a thread with the questions you want to discuss and WE will all give it a go.
As far as starting a new thread goes...I asked some questions, and they were pertinent, if you feel like answering them that would be great, if you don't...or can't, that's great too...someone else can. ;)
Rib
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I am planning a formal meeting with Penner early in the New Year so if the people involved in this thread are interested in getting something going that I suggested above now is the time to start it as time passes quickly.
Further to this letter idea I need concrete evidence what they have done on certain rivers and what needs to be done to correct it.
Thanks