Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: CohoMan on December 29, 2015, 10:46:12 PM
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On Sunday, I arrived at Browne parking lot at the same time with another car. I had changed at home so I was out the car and ready to go. I bid my morning to a guy with a dog.
I walked all the way down to Browne and I was the first one there. I decided to do my walk, cast, walk, cast from the middle of the run - hoping to fish all the way down to the tailend. While doing my cast and walk, I looked back and saw the guy with the dog coming down. I thought he would fish above me but instead he walked past me and straight towards the tailend.
I really did not mind because I have learned that at the Vedder most fishermen doesn't care.
So i proceeded to fish towards the tailend and hence to the guy with the dog.
The next thing I know the same guy decided to give me !@#$%^ for fishing too close to him. The guy that walked past me to fish the tailend despite seeing me moving at a fast pace.
That just blew my mind!!!!!!
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If you were the first guy on the run and worked your way down I'd say you had the right of way but if you bypass a fisherman and did not ask to fish below him then ya just low holed him so he has the right to complain
As for encroaching on a fisherman's space, if he doesn't move as ya work your way down it's always best to ask if you can hop him if he wants to be a fence post. communication is best to avoid conflict........if that doesn't work then it's no hold bared
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If you were the first guy on the run and worked your way down I'd say you had the right of way but if you bypass a fisherman and did not ask to fish below him then ya just low holed him so he has the right to complain
As for encroaching on a fisherman's space, if he doesn't move as ya work your way down it's always best to ask if you can hop him if he wants to be a fence post. communication is best to avoid conflict........if that doesn't work then it's no hold bared
The OP was low holed, not the guy giving him an earful. If anyone had the right to "complain" its the OP.
If your the first on the run, you have first crack at fishing the runs length (if you work it and not telephone pole). Gearing up in the parking lot to sleeping in your waders, rod ready to go in a tent on the river do not reserve first crack.
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Etiquettes don't seem to apply on the Vedder these days.
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Etiquette? Is that a river in Egypt or something?
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Etiquette applies on any river all the time, that's why it is called etiquette. There are just more losers fishing the Vedder than other rivers. If you could toss out etiquette just because others behave badly than there would be never be any etiquette. People just use the Vedder as an excuse to behave badly. It only shows their true character.
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Etiquette applies on any river all the time, that's why it is called etiquette. There are just more losers fishing the Vedder than other rivers. If you could toss out etiquette just because others behave badly than there would be never be any etiquette. People just use the Vedder as an excuse to behave badly. It only shows their true character.
Nail on the head. Today I walked all the way to the top of the just to ask if I can start below someone and he gave me the green light. Brought a friend out steelheading for the first time today and made him do the same.
Speaking of etiquette or bad behaviour...saw a wild doe that looked like it was cleaned but left behind at the train bridge. It looked like the birds got to it already though....that sight hurt my soul :(
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But did you say anything to him after he whined at you? There's nothing wrong with you telling the guy he low holed you and you were working the run. Not much good complaining on here, you have to stick up for yourself out there.
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I got low holed 2 times on derby day! Couldnt believe it...flippen ask first. If the guy got one freakin report him at weigh in not showing propper sportsmanship.
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I got low holed 2 times on derby day! Couldnt believe it...flippen ask first. If the guy got one freakin report him at weigh in not showing propper sportsmanship.
Wow, you expected to not get low holed on derby day? Good luck with that.
Fishing derbies are the definition of combat fishing.
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The only person I can control is myself. I fish with etiquette and always ask if its ok to fish below someone or walk to the top of a run and let people start moving before I jump in. Thats just who I am.
Expecting it from other people on the Vedder is where you set yourself up for disappointment. There are many good people out there who do fish with etiquette but they are out numbered by people who do not see beyond the end of their own nose. Over the past 4 years I have given up on first light fishing partly due to the fact that I catch most of my fish mid morning to the afternoon but in large part because of lack of etiquette. Why am I going to crawl out of bed at some ungodly hour to get to the river to find a nice spot for first light to have some DB come in and low hole me. Ruins the experience for me.
Almost all of my BC fishing experience is on the Vedder so I dont know much else. I could see the mentality of people not caring because "everyone" does it and it lulling them into the same type of behavior. Monkey see, monkey do type of thing.
I hold myself to my standards and expect this type of behavior and dont let it get me down too much. I just shake my head and move on. There is lots of river to cover and I am out there for peace, quiet and enjoyment. Why would I let some DB take that from me? Life is too short. That being said, when I come across other ethical anglers, its a great experience, with some great convos and makes it much more enjoyable.
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When I'm the first on a run, I always start at the middle of the run or lower to the prime tailout,..... problem solved
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Dont fish Browne road ::) But, yeah that suck, but it happens, doesn't hurt to say something, and if that doesn't work, tossing a nice big boulder in the water below them does.
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I take my dog, my kids, my neighbours kids.
I bring a ball, a stick, and a bucket of skipping stones.
And when this happens I say:
"Here's a good place to play, have 'ater" :o
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just avoid popular spots , hike , explorer find new spot , many of those guys who don't care about "rules" will not hike a mile from parking ... pretty easy solution .
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In the 30 plus years I have been fishing the Vedder, I have always conductied myself in an appropriate manner. It's old school mentality. Always start the head of the pool and work your way down. If someone is fence posting ask them if they mind you leap frogging them. Most times they don't, if they do then move along to the next run. I avoid confrontation on the river, getting into a fight over a stupid fish is utterly ridiculous. I leave the run if I get beaked out. I had a very enjoyable day on the river yesterday. Had a fellow walk up to the run I was fishing from down below. He walked past me and started at the head of the run instead of low holing me. Another fellow on a different run walked past me, then decided to turn around and start at the head of the pool. I asked a fellow on another run if he minded leapfrogging him and he said no problem! So you see there are many anglers who still respect the traditional and courteous way to fish. Always remember to treat others the way u yourself would like to be treated.
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Exactly.
Getting in an argument will hang with you the rest of the day.
Having said that:
A lot of folks just don't know.
Try to educate and if that doesn't work just walk away shaking your head.
Some will get it, some never will.
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The tricky thing is on certain runs will only hold fish in certain spots. If you know in a certain run fish hold in the tailout but you want to start at the head and cover all the other water first then you're playing with fire. If you're first to the run it's sometimes best just to hit the spot you think will be prime then move to the top.
The Vedder isn't a large flow in a remote part of BC and if you're fish a popular spot like Browne you have to know more guys are walking in.
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Two years ago i was fishing the Bulkley and got low holed twice, once by a local and once by a guide who knew better. So it's not just the Veddar/ Chilliwack system, too bad people don't read the regs, its right in there. I usually go to the prime spot first if i'm alone on a run, then move to the head and fish it down. If someone is on the run I ask if its ok to start above him, I think it shows respect for your fellow fishermen as well as the sport.
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I have fished many week days on the vedder and 95% of the guys i meet and talk to are very respectable and decent people.
However, On the weekends the percentages go down a lot. Weekends its 50-50. Just last weekend a couple guys came walking into the area i was fishing and as they walked past me (Literally 5ft away from me) I said, " Hey, How is it going" And both of the guys gave me a dead stare and proceeded to go below me and fish the run.
Im a very friendly guy, If your out on the flow and see me come talk to me. I love to talk to everyone and share/Recieve info about things. But some people are just ignorant. I treat people how i want to be treated. Which is with respect.
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There is no greater satisfaction than pulling a steelie out of a piece of water a low holer just fished! Brings a tear to my eye! ;D ;D ;D
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one piece of fishing etiquette that chokes me even worst than being lowholed is when the fisherman at the bottom of the run isn't catching and decides to fish the run a second time so he walks upstream and stops directly below you to fish instead of going to the top of the run.
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*scratching my head ....
drove to v/c today early in a morning , was at spot about 30mins before I was expecting , drove away to get a coffee ...
when I came back and was ready to go , guy parked besides me , smile on my face and conversation :
-good morning
-good morning (with smile on his face)
-happy new year
-happy new year to you too , bud (still smiling)
-good luck
-good luck to you too (still smiling)
I fished over an hour in a middle of pool , he was above , he passed me and just went way to the lower end ....
For real , I just can`t get one thing , if you have problems in 1 spot or few spots (that are very popular) whats the point of whinning ? GO , EXPLORER , FIND and you will be fine :)
p.s. be nice and polite :) even if someone is an funny dude - put a smile on your face , no reason to cry about something , just carry on )
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I'm kinda lost there hrenya ...
You fished a spot for an hour and someone went below you?
I might be misunderstanding your post; but if you're sitting on a Rock for an hour while trying to catch Steelhead I'm surprised only one person went around you.
This technique (fenceposting) works well during salmon season when you're waiting for a push of fish.
Steelhead come in smaller numbers so you must hunt (move,chase,...) Them down.
Cast, casst, cassst.
Take a few steps (10+)
Cast, casst, cassst.
Repeat until the runs done.
If you think you missed something go to the top and repeat;
perhaps with a different presentation
Good luck!
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I'm kinda lost there hrenya ...
You fished a spot for an hour and someone went below you?
I might be misunderstanding your post; but if you're sitting on a Rock for an hour while trying to catch Steelhead I'm surprised only one person went around you.
This technique (fenceposting) works well during salmon season when you're waiting for a push of fish.
Steelhead come in smaller numbers so you must hunt (move,chase,...) Them down.
Cast, casst, cassst.
Take a few steps (10+)
Cast, casst, cassst.
Repeat until the runs done.
If you think you missed something go to the top and repeat;
perhaps with a different presentation
Good luck!
Exactly. Keep your feet moving and cover as much water as u can in the time you r out there.
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I've found quite a few tend to come in "low hole" and fence post. This to me isn't an etiquette issue for the most part, more a lack of knowledge that salmon fishing and steelhead fishing are not the same and finding "a spot" to wet a line and cast, reel, repeat is not the approach you want to take if you want to have success rather then get lucky once or twice a season. It's the anglers who you see moving with purpose, on their "routes" working runs and moving on (clearly indicating to me they understand the steelhead fishery) that low hole people that get to me. There's a big difference imo between not knowing any better and purposely corking someone to get first crack a the meat of a run. A rookie steelheader can be educated on the etiquette, an EH hole more often then not will always put themselves first
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sry for my English , idea was that when I got to the run , were was a guy already fishing above me , and its a pretty big stretch , so I jumped in a middle , that guy who I met at parking went up to that guy , and when went down from me . Nobody was in anyones way , and no one was complaining :)
who cares if he wants to do 2-3 casts above , 2-3 casts below , he`s not in a way and I completely don't mind him passing me by ...
p.s. I didn't fish 1 spot for an hour :D I was slowly moving down trying to cast whenever I can with different depth :D yeah I know might be not the best idea , but im still learning to cast with pin and for me 2-3 cast won`t give me enough practice .
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I disagree. If there's a spot you know holds fish there's nothing wrong with fence posting. Steelhead bites can turn on and off throughout a day. There are a few spots on the river where guys post up all day and they seem to get fish consistently. It's just a really boring way to fish.
I'm kinda lost there hrenya ...
You fished a spot for an hour and someone went below you?
I might be misunderstanding your post; but if you're sitting on a Rock for an hour while trying to catch Steelhead I'm surprised only one person went around you.
This technique (fenceposting) works well during salmon season when you're waiting for a push of fish.
Steelhead come in smaller numbers so you must hunt (move,chase,...) Them down.
Cast, casst, cassst.
Take a few steps (10+)
Cast, casst, cassst.
Repeat until the runs done.
If you think you missed something go to the top and repeat;
perhaps with a different presentation
Good luck!
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On a related, but different topic, how far down from a person do you have to walk before you are no longer considered "low holing," or is it even possible? Is leaving one full run acceptable? 2? Does distance between runs make a difference?
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according to "old school" it does matter , but in my opinion if no one is in anybody`s way - how can that matter ?!
lets say I cast left to right , if I have a person fishing RIGHT TIGHT with me but he casts right to left , as long as we keep timing when to cast - I really don't see any problems . BUT if person is casting same way as I do and located below me (which put me to very uncomfy position to cast) that's different .
I do respect "rules" , I live by them , but sometimes they make no sense , and people get very angry if someone coming close to them :D
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Got to a run today, one guy at the head of the run. As I walked up I looked at him and pointed to the mid section of the run and got a nod back.
Always a good idea to just give a heads up whether you want to drop in above or below someone else.
So far no one has had any objection.
I have also had others come up to me and ask if it was ok to either drop in above or below me.
Just seems like common courtesy
Gotta say though ....the steelheaders I have come across so far have def been a lot nicer to deal with than some encounters I had in the fall salmon season. :o
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Gotta say though ....the steelheaders I have come across so far have def been a lot nicer to deal with than some encounters I had in the fall salmon season. :o
And this is why myself and many others stay away from the Vedder for the most part of salmon season. I can't recall when was the last time someone got my blood going when steelheading, salmon season on the other hand - guaranteed to happen. Someone mentioned above that they don't fish first light for that reason and that's just so so true, the ignorance you have to put up with just doesn't make it worth during peak season.
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sry for my English , idea was that when I got to the run , were was a guy already fishing above me , and its a pretty big stretch , so I jumped in a middle , that guy who I met at parking went up to that guy , and when went down from me . Nobody was in anyones way , and no one was complaining :)
who cares if he wants to do 2-3 casts above , 2-3 casts below , he`s not in a way and I completely don't mind him passing me by
And there in lies the "argument".... It isn't that people are crowding it's that when an angler is working a run (starting at the top working through it covering it all) and someone "jumped" in the middle. This is the ettiquette that is considered "bad form" essentially you have butted in line and are covering the run (quite often the meat of the run) ahead of the angler who has been working the run in a grid like fashion. Unlike salmon fishing were you find a open spot and give others room, steelheading is more calculated and for a lot of steelheaders a planned out approach to covering water. When someone "jumps in" below them in the same run instead of working from top to bottom WITHOUT asking. Think of it like being at the movies, if your in line and slowly moving towards the counter and someone jumps line in front of you, would you think that's ok as long as they didn't "crowd" you?
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And there in lies the "argument".... It isn't that people are crowding it's that when an angler is working a run (starting at the top working through it covering it all) and someone "jumped" in the middle. This is the ettiquette that is considered "bad form" essentially you have butted in line and are covering the run (quite often the meat of the run) ahead of the angler who has been working the run in a grid like fashion. Unlike salmon fishing were you find a open spot and give others room, steelheading is more calculated and for a lot of steelheaders a planned out approach to covering water. When someone "jumps in" below them in the same run instead of working from top to bottom WITHOUT asking. Think of it like being at the movies, if your in line and slowly moving towards the counter and someone jumps line in front of you, would you think that's ok as long as they didn't "crowd" you?
like I said above , where were LOTS of room , we talking about 300-400feet away from each other .... why I should hike up and ask a guy if I can fish middle section ? if I will see him moving torwards me doing couple casts here and there , I have no problems to let him make few cast at a spot im fishing and letting him go below me ...
also , like said above , if you arrive first on a run - cover "honey hole" first and start from up , I don`t complain in this example , im just saying if you see a guy above you rushing to cover as much as he can and he is getting closer - just let him pass and do a few casts ...
I always ask if I can join a run if I see it might be a "tight" situation , but when lots of room , and I don't see an angler moving down quick - why I can`t fish below him ?!
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There are not a ton runs on the Vedder that are 300-400 ft from head to body(middle) or even to the tail out of a run. I'm not saying what you did was low holing, at that distance I would not consider what you did to be that, I think there may be some "discrepancy" in the understanding of the make up of a run. MOST runs will have 3 main sections: head, body and tailout. Reading water is an important part of maximizing your chances of consistently locating steelhead so it is a huge advantage to be able to indentify these sections of a "run" as well as pocket water (whole other subject). Don't get me wrong, you may very well be able to read water and identify where a run starts and ends but for those who can't or perhaps aren't even aware of the make up of a run, I'd HIGHLY recommend researching this, watching on the flow where anglers begin and end working a piece of water and ask questions, here or to a "seasoned" steelheader you may know. All of us at one point or another in our steelheading career where green and put in the time to understand (and in turn catch more) of these beautiful chrome slabs.
This break down maybe a helpful starting point for reading water
http://steelheadnotebook.net/forum/index.php?topic=5032.0
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I don't have a problem if some uninformed fisherman decides to fish below me even though they can clearly see I am moving at a relatively good pace.
I don't think we can expect much when it comes to etiquette at the Vedder River.
I have issue when the same guy gives me !@@#$$ when I get down around him!!!!!!!!
That's why I brought this up.
Fine to fish below me if you like but don't give me hell when I get near you!!!!!!
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I have issue when the same guy gives me !@@#$$ when I get down around him!!!!!!!!
That's why I brought this up.
Fine to fish below me if you like but don't give me hell when I get near you!!!!!!
Hey Cohoman. May be he just doesn't like you, plain and simple. But who care about him ,why let him bother you. Tight line....
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Hey Cohoman. May be he just doesn't like you, plain and simple. But who care about him ,why let him bother you. Tight line....
X2....that's why I try not to go on weekends
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I don't have a problem if some uninformed fisherman decides to fish below me even though they can clearly see I am moving at a relatively good pace.
I don't think we can expect much when it comes to etiquette at the Vedder River.
I have issue when the same guy gives me !@@#$$ when I get down around him!!!!!!!!
That's why I brought this up.
Fine to fish below me if you like but don't give me hell when I get near you!!!!!!
x3 if I see you coming I will move , or I will let you pass , that`s common sense
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There are not a ton runs on the Vedder that are 300-400 ft from head to body(middle) or even to the tail out of a run. I'm not saying what you did was low holing, at that distance I would not consider what you did to be that, I think there may be some "discrepancy" in the understanding of the make up of a run. MOST runs will have 3 main sections: head, body and tailout. Reading water is an important part of maximizing your chances of consistently locating steelhead so it is a huge advantage to be able to indentify these sections of a "run" as well as pocket water (whole other subject). Don't get me wrong, you may very well be able to read water and identify where a run starts and ends but for those who can't or perhaps aren't even aware of the make up of a run, I'd HIGHLY recommend researching this, watching on the flow where anglers begin and end working a piece of water and ask questions, here or to a "seasoned" steelheader you may know. All of us at one point or another in our steelheading career where green and put in the time to understand (and in turn catch more) of these beautiful chrome slabs.
This break down maybe a helpful starting point for reading water
http://steelheadnotebook.net/forum/index.php?topic=5032.0
ty for advices given above , I do have a buddy of mine who fished vedder for 25 years + , we just can`t meet up yet , I really hope we will do that in a couple weeks , cuz I really wanna learn .
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If a guy low holes you right now don't sweat it because there will be more fish then usual in the head of the run right now in this low clear conditions where all the oxygenated water is.
The big brutes will sometimes sit out in the far seam at the head where all the chop is.
In these conditions you can't pass up the outside seams but don't forget the skinny stuff inside either.
As the water colours up and rises you would be very suprised how shallow fish will hold.
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In other words: fish everything.
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If that's all you got from that then yes, I suggest you fish everytbing.
You already know where the fish are I was throwing some of the lesser experienced guys who might be intimidated by these conditions a bone.
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I wasn't dissin what you you were saying Noah.
But you did describe almost every type of water.
And I've seen a few (not mine :() fish pulled out of unlikely spots lately.
If one is new they might not even know what you mean at this juncture in the learning curve.
Your advice is sound. ;)
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Im a very friendly guy, If your out on the flow and see me come talk to me. I love to talk to everyone and share/Recieve info about things. But some people are just ignorant. I treat people how i want to be treated. Which is with respect.
Exactly.
I remember this time I was fishing the cap, started at the top of a pool and worked my way downstream. There was this guy fenceposting, and so out of respect I asked him if it's ok for me to move below him. First thing out of his mouth "I'm not here to talk to people!!". I replied I'm just following angler's etiquette, without even listening to me he goes on about how he's a local.. fished there for many years.. yade yada.. thinks he owns the river kind of bs.
Needless to say I gave him an earful and moved on downstream.
On the bright side, I have met many other wonderful anglers on the same system who I won't mind taking a break from fishing just to have a conversation with.
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Another Steelhead season, and another thread about fishing etiquette on the Vedder...
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LOL , if you people think v/c is bad , go to Richmond and try to fish for herring :D with all my politeness and respecting to anglers - I NEVER was swearing that much and being angry . Just give it a try :) and you will go on v/c with smile on your face , you will enjoy a river and a view :D
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LOL , if you people think v/c is bad , go to Richmond and try to fish for herring :D with all my politeness and respecting to anglers - I NEVER was swearing that much and being angry . Just give it a try :) and you will go on v/c with smile on your face , you will enjoy a river and a view :D
lol...when I was there I tried to smile and be polite as much as possible to the guy beside me who kept casting his jig across my line...it's not worth getting pissed off over some small fish. Furry Creek last year during Pink season was a similar sort of gong show..some interesting drama I witnessed there...not sure whether I want to go back there again for pinks.
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tim , actually that coho ninja spot you know now , very good for pinks too :)
but I recommend to start at Richmond , and move torwards new west :)
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tim , actually that coho ninja spot you know now , very good for pinks too :)
but I recommend to start at Richmond , and move torwards new west :)
Actually I caught my pinks out at New West..lost a few more in Richmond!
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I find that the magnitude of asshattery goes up in direct proportion to the number of people fishing an area, and because I fish to relax, I don't fish the Vedder or any of the usual spots close to the lower mainland. If you can find an out-of-the-way place it's great, but anywhere with a crowd is simply too much aggravation.
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I find that the magnitude of asshattery goes up in direct proportion to the number of people fishing an area, and because I fish to relax, I don't fish the Vedder or any of the usual spots close to the lower mainland. If you can find an out-of-the-way place it's great, but anywhere with a crowd is simply too much aggravation.
Main reason I pretty much avoid the salmon fisheries when I am home and instead target trout from Hope and beyond into region 3. Too much crap going on that makes fishing unenjoyable.
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Have only been out a hand full of times so far this year, but haven't been corked once and I haven't ran into any "Richard Craniums" either. So far so good, just needa hook into some fish!
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Agreed. It's funny that the majority of people complaining about bad behavior on the Vedder don't fish it.
I have fished for steelhead on the Vedder pretty regularly since 2009 and other than fenceposting I haven't seen a single incident of bad behavior. Even every fenceposter has been cordial when I ask to fish below them.
Don't fish the easy access meat holes. They aren't very productive anyways.
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Don't fish the easy access meat holes. They aren't very productive anyways.
Isn't this a contradiction? I thought a "meat hole" was a term used to reference a productive piece of water that frequently produces "meat". I think you meant to say not all easy to access spots are "meat holes" or that just because a lot of guys are fishing there spent mean it will be productive.
I disagree though, that those that complain do not fish there, as it is the experience fishing there that the majority of those complaining are complaining about. The most frustrated complainers are those that do not fish the easily accessed parts (Browne Rd being an exception perhaps), where they have walked into a less accessible run and then get low holed by someone who walks in afterwards and starts fishing the tail out of the run you are half way through. As I said earlier, the Veddder has become an excuse to behave poorly, but etiquette is not something you can explain away or avoid because you think the other people are not using it. You either have it or you don't. You either respect other people or you are rude and selfish. It is a question of your inner character as a human being, nothing more.
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Isn't this a contradiction? I thought a "meat hole" was a term used to reference a productive piece of water that frequently produces "meat". I think you meant to say not all easy to access spots are "meat holes" or that just because a lot of guys are fishing there spent mean it will be productive.
I disagree though, that those that complain do not fish there, as it is the experience fishing there that the majority of those complaining are complaining about. The most frustrated complainers are those that do not fish the easily accessed parts (Browne Rd being an exception perhaps), where they have walked into a less accessible run and then get low holed by someone who walks in afterwards and starts fishing the tail out of the run you are half way through. As I said earlier, the Veddder has become an excuse to behave poorly, but etiquette is not something you can explain away or avoid because you think the other people are not using it. You either have it or you don't. You either respect other people or you are rude and selfish. It is a question of your inner character as a human being, nothing more.
we all make mistakes , we all learn . you can`t say "You either have it or you don't. You either respect other people or you are rude and selfish." I dunno how many times I posted , from 2 years of fishing experience , im learning , I don't have it right away , I do respect people , but 1 time when I got to cap with my bud , and where was a guy flyfishing - he took half a pool with his casts , and he yelled at me and my buddy when we were watching him to get out his way so he can cast , and we could see another 10 anglers on a second half of the pool shoulder to shoulder .... THAT was my first time I got angry .... isn`t it just a common sense ?! if 10 people float fishing , and a water has quite a flow - wtf ?! I`ve been at cap hundreds of times , all times I was enjoying my trips , my first cohos landed there were on roe I had , and I shared it with a guy I hiked from parking and we were talking , both of us were newbies , he use my roe and got a fish :) I was very happy , more happier than that guy was :D I never had problems with people fishing around me , the only thing I tried to avoid stop with big amount of people when I was learning baitcaster/pin .
now lets go to c/v , after reading all these posts about combat fishing and blahblahblah , I went there a few times , and guess what - I did enjoyed it !!! all the people around me were nice and friendly , they correct me if I was doing something wrong , they NEVER were angry if my line tangled with theirs ,cuz I told them right away im just a newbie and trying to learn .
I really don't know where you guys are fishing :D for 2 years , 1 case with that flyfishing guy , other than that - people are friendly and willing to help .
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we all make mistakes , we all learn . you can`t say "You either have it or you don't. You either respect other people or you are rude and selfish." I dunno how many times I posted , from 2 years of fishing experience , im learning , I don't have it right away , I do respect people , but 1 time when I got to cap with my bud , and where was a guy flyfishing - he took half a pool with his casts , and he yelled at me and my buddy when we were watching him to get out his way so he can cast , and we could see another 10 anglers on a second half of the pool shoulder to shoulder .... THAT was my first time I got angry .... isn`t it just a common sense ?! if 10 people float fishing , and a water has quite a flow - wtf ?! I`ve been at cap hundreds of times , all times I was enjoying my trips , my first cohos landed there were on roe I had , and I shared it with a guy I hiked from parking and we were talking , both of us were newbies , he use my roe and got a fish :) I was very happy , more happier than that guy was :D I never had problems with people fishing around me , the only thing I tried to avoid stop with big amount of people when I was learning baitcaster/pin .
now lets go to c/v , after reading all these posts about combat fishing and blahblahblah , I went there a few times , and guess what - I did enjoyed it !!! all the people around me were nice and friendly , they correct me if I was doing something wrong , they NEVER were angry if my line tangled with theirs ,cuz I told them right away im just a newbie and trying to learn .
I really don't know where you guys are fishing :D for 2 years , 1 case with that flyfishing guy , other than that - people are friendly and willing to help .
Yes, I can say it. You either respect other anglers, or you do not. You sound like you respect other anglers, but I may be misreading your post. The "I am a newbie and don't know better" only last so long. We are not talking about innocent gaffs of missing a cast that sails over another's line. We are talking about people knowing acting in manner disrespectful to other anglers on the river, some going so far as boast how they don't care for etiquette because it is the Vedder (or the Cap for that matter). If you walk up and stand behind a fly fisherman, even if you are newbie, it is obvious you are going to be in his way. If you walk in below him you don't need to be a veteran to know he will not be able to swing a fly and avoid you hooking his line. So if you do either of these things, regardless of how new you are, then you have no respect for him and only care for your own enjoyment. If you respected him, you would not walk in below him, or stand in his back cast and you would move higher upstream or wait until he has moved. It really is that simple. If you had gotten there first, you would expect the same of him.
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...but 1 time when I got to cap with my bud , and where was a guy flyfishing - he took half a pool with his casts , and he yelled at me and my buddy when we were watching him to get out his way so he can cast , and we could see another 10 anglers on a second half of the pool shoulder to shoulder .... THAT was my first time I got angry .... isn`t it just a common sense ?! if 10 people float fishing , and a water has quite a flow - wtf ?!
Sorry Hrenya, but this time you are wrong.
If the fly guy was there before you and the other gear fishers, he is completely within his rights to fish that pool and ask you guys to stay away from his "zone". In moving water the "zone" is pretty much the length of line he is casting floated downstream. I myself would be pretty pissed off at you if you cast your line over my drifting fly line (unless we came to fish together and you know what you are doing).
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And the real estate is so limited on the Cap.
Flyfishers don't try to crowd you out they just need a little more room.
I can fish gear or fly with folks doing the opposite but! Only if they know, or at least have an idea, of what they're doing).
On other rivers, like the Veddar, the river favors gear chuckers, fly fishers are more limited.
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Yeah but when u have 1 fly fishing guy and he took half a pool , and another dozen floating anglers on a second half - that just looks ridiculas to me , me and my buddy left , but those angler didn`t look happy . so according to you I can come first to the spot , bring my sturgeon setup and hook a 20oz weight cast upstream and lock 2/3 of pool for me - that would a right thing to do ?! that's what you pretty much saying , and I`m saying you should you right gear on a PEAK of season at CROWDED spots . so according to you 2 flyfishing guys can own a pool . this is no fair .
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And the real estate is so limited on the Cap.
Flyfishers don't try to crowd you out they just need a little more room.
I can fish gear or fly with folks doing the opposite but! Only if they know, or at least have an idea, of what they're doing).
On other rivers, like the Veddar, the river favors gear chuckers, fly fishers are more limited.
yeah , exactly , if you snagging trees behind with your flys , it doesn't really look like you know what you`re doing , that was the case with that guy ....
but if you guys said im wrong , it`s cool , I`ll bring my flyfishing setup with me next season , grab my buddy , and we will own a pool cuz I still suck casting it and need "MUCH MORE ROOM" ...
I guess I finally got it , it still looks wrong to me , but if "oldtimers" and "guys with etiquette" says this is how it is .... I will follow :)
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Sounds like similar guys I met on a squamish trib last year. Decked out full simms with the top gear catching the trees behind them and still wading out to their nipples... They got mad while I was catching fish in their seam 60 ft down stream. Not all guys are like that, but some feel like they are above other people based on what they have and wha you don`t have.
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Personally, I've never been that horny to fish a spot.
I fly fish and gear fish.
Fish well with both experienced fly and gear guys.
Sometimes not worth the headache with others.
IF you're fishing the Cap be forewarned.
BUT! Like I said (wrote) there's limited real estate (rocks and standing room) if you walk in late to a situation don't expect others to move.
I've had guys with surf rods try to slip in in amongst a few of us that were all in sync and mess everyone up.
I time my Cap trips carefully.
Good luck but sometimes it's more headaches and I'll drive a little further to avoid those. 8)
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Jeez, someone's got their panties in a knot.
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Yeah but when u have 1 fly fishing guy and he took half a pool , and another dozen floating anglers on a second half - that just looks ridiculas to me , me and my buddy left , but those angler didn`t look happy . so according to you I can come first to the spot , bring my sturgeon setup and hook a 20oz weight cast upstream and lock 2/3 of pool for me - that would a right thing to do ?! that's what you pretty much saying , and I`m saying you should you right gear on a PEAK of season at CROWDED spots . so according to you 2 flyfishing guys can own a pool . this is no fair .
Unlike float fishers who can drift their float upstream to a certain point downstream and still catch fish. Meanwhile the fly guy tossing streamers or intruders for steelhead/salmon has to cast at about 30 - 45 degrees downstream and allow his fly to swing through. was the pool fast or slow moving water, you seem to have left that out.
The stuff I bolded, is it supposed to read "i'm saying you should use the right gear"? Please clarify
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it was fast water , his casts sucked , so if a dozen of angler get their stuff in a water and in drifting down , he cast upstream , he didn't use streamer or intruders ... its was a tighny fly .
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Unlike float fishers who can drift their float upstream to a certain point downstream and still catch fish. Meanwhile the fly guy tossing streamers or intruders for steelhead/salmon has to cast at about 30 - 45 degrees downstream and allow his fly to swing through. was the pool fast or slow moving water, you seem to have left that out.
The stuff I bolded, is it supposed to read "i'm saying you should use the right gear"? Please clarify
btw u bolded nothing
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hey but why to bother ? :D you guys said I was wrong , he was right , let carry on , wonder how it will look in a few years ....
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Yeah but when u have 1 fly fishing guy and he took half a pool , and another dozen floating anglers on a second half - that just looks ridiculas to me , me and my buddy left , but those angler didn`t look happy . so according to you I can come first to the spot , bring my sturgeon setup and hook a 20oz weight cast upstream and lock 2/3 of pool for me - that would a right thing to do ?! that's what you pretty much saying , and I`m saying you should you right gear on a PEAK of season at CROWDED spots . so according to you 2 flyfishing guys can own a pool . this is no fair .
Ok, I had earlier thought you sounded like you respect other anglers, but now I am sure I misunderstood your other post, as now it sounds like you just want to be a jerk. Equating fly fishing to you using sturgeon gear and "locking 2/3 of the pool" on purpose (when there is no chance you will catch a sturgeon there), just sounds like you have no respect for fly fishermen, despite you recently taking up the technique yourself. It now sounds to me like you showed up late to a pool that already had 12 gear guys and one fly fisherman (perhaps a newbie like yourself still working on his casting technique) already fishing it and you are pissed because you could not fish it yourself. You just want to be able to fill up the other half of the pool like the guys on the other side were doing. I get it it now.
And to answer your question, yes, two fly fishermen (or gear fishermen for that matter) CAN "own" the pool if it is only big enough to take two, just as one fisherman can own a run or pool if it is a small one that only one guy can reasonably fish at a time (as many pools and runs are on the smaller stream I usually fish). Now, that does not mean you HAVE to respect the guys already there and go look for a spot you can fish, but you need to accept that if you go ahead and crowd yourself in beside the guy, you are acting selfishly and are probably going to ruin his day. You are welcome to do that, no law against it, but if you do it then you are being a jerk. Chances are if you stay and watched for a bit, or introduced yourself, asked how fishing was, inquired how long he has been trying that spot, there is a good chance he would tell you that he will probably be giving up soon and you can take the spot. If on the other hand, you see him hook a fish, then you can expect he will probably be there a while longer until he has caught his limit or tired himself out.
It sounds like you were just pissed that a fly fisher (who needs more room than a drift fisher) beat you to a spot. Just as guys spin fishing spoons and spinners can crowd closer together than guys drift fishing roe (drift rods are longer and require more room to cast), guys fly fishing need more room to cast, and their line in the water needs more room to swing or strip than a drift fisher (most of whose line is up off the water between the float and rid tip). You just clearly do not like guys fly fishing the Cap when you think more guys could crowd into the pools if the fly fishers were not there. I get it now. My mistake.
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btw u bolded nothing
He bold faced your words where you said "you should [use the] right gear [for] PEAK season in a crowded spot." This is the part which shows your disrespect for fly fishermen on the Cap. You see fly fishing as being the wrong gear (the same as using sturgeon gear). I would note that since you came late to that pool, it is possibly that spot was NOT crowded when the fly fisherman first started fishing, and the other gear guys came after, like you.
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Hopefully this time he proofreads his response to you guys... haha
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lol , my point is not me being a jerk , and not me and my bud being late at the spot , point is if you have no idea what you are doing and taking half a pool to yourself and creating problems for dozen anglers , according to you guys - its ok .
I never said I would bring my sturgeon setup to cap for sturgeon , I do know I can catch springs in cap using a bar rig . so me and my setup = im being a jerk even if ill make it before anyone , but that guy with his setup is cool ... where is logic ?!
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I always respect flyfishing guys , I met a few on fraser during pink season and quite a few on lakes , they gave me tips showed some tricks , couple of those guys gave me few flies they tied and I had no problems with them at all . But if you coming to spot during a season LEARNING how to cast and CREATING problems for other anglers , what etiquette you guys are talking about ?! When I got my baitcaster last year and pin later on , I spend tons of hours in a park by my place before I hit water , even with my flyfishing setup I carried to cap I never used it if it was crowded . What makes that guy special ?
You thoughts about me being a jerk to all anglers are false , I`m still talking about 1 guy at 1 spot for 2 years I`ve been fishing :)
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I always respect flyfishing guys , I met a few on fraser during pink season and quite a few on lakes , they gave me tips showed some tricks , couple of those guys gave me few flies they tied and I had no problems with them at all . But if you coming to spot during a season LEARNING how to cast and CREATING problems for other anglers , what etiquette you guys are talking about ?! When I got my baitcaster last year and pin later on , I spend tons of hours in a park by my place before I hit water , even with my flyfishing setup I carried to cap I never used it if it was crowded . What makes that guy special ?
You thoughts about me being a jerk to all anglers are false , I`m still talking about 1 guy at 1 spot for 2 years I`ve been fishing :)
I like many others learned how to fly cast on the water. dynamics are different then in a park, unless it's a lake (even then there are differences though). A park doesn't have trees to hang your fly in, and it doesn't have fast moving water that changes the angle of your lift to your cast location. The other thing he gets as a new angler is the ability to read how the water affects his fly line.
Besides learner or not the way you describe it, your description is similar to what I'd expect to witness from a fly Fisher regardless of skill and experience level.
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But guys how are we suppose to pack 20 guys into a pool if those damn fly fishermen don't have the "etiquette" to use the "proper" setup to allow for combat fishing? Lol sounds to me like the "etiquette" your looking for is that people need to be considerate enough to allow as many (12 in this case) other anglers in the pool as want to fish it...Just a guess but....did you start fishing during sockeye 2014 at Peg Leg??
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nah , I`ve done for 1 time and didn't like it
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Yeah but when u have 1 fly fishing guy and he took half a pool , and another dozen floating anglers on a second half - that just looks ridiculas to me , me and my buddy left , but those angler didn`t look happy . so according to you I can come first to the spot , bring my sturgeon setup and hook a 20oz weight cast upstream and lock 2/3 of pool for me - that would a right thing to do ?! that's what you pretty much saying , and I`m saying you should you right gear on a PEAK of season at CROWDED spots . so according to you 2 flyfishing guys can own a pool . this is no fair .
Hrenya, I can think of at least a couple dozen things that are "not fair" in this life, but we have to live with them because that's the way life is. It all depends where you are standing - it is a matter of perspective. For example, I believe among other things that it is not fair that uber rich Asian investors come to Vancouver and Burnaby with millions of dollars and park their money virtually tax-free in prime real estate without even living here, pricing local folk out of the city into the suburbs. But if you ask the Asian investor, they will say it's a great investment opportunity - not something unfair.
Likewise, Hrenya, you cannot dictate who and when should be on the water on any given day. So it is peak season and a rookie fly fishermen is occupying some sweet water? You arrive after him and just because he isn't to your liking, you get upset? So much so that you demand that he practice in a park before hitting the water? Sorry, but that's quite arrogant!! >:(
So according to you, inexperienced anglers had better stay home and let those who know what they are doing have all the fun in peak season?
That is the most preposterous comment I have read in my 15+ years on fishing forums.
FWIW, one of the greatest pleasures of fishing is helping out a newbie angler. Teaching him/her a thing or two and seeing them catch a fish after they implement what you have taught them beats the hell out of catching fish yourself. :)
So next time you see someone taking valuable real estate and not using it accordingly, maybe try and give them a couple of pointers and help them catch a fish rather than bitch and moan and feel your day is ruined because you couldn't fish your chosen pool or run.
Unless you are one of those "it's all about me!" kind of people, in which case nothing I wrote above will resound with you. :-\
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Well said Milo.
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Well said Milo.
X 2
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We get a lot of Europeans come to fish the Campbell Quinsam system. Most of them fly fish.
There is a run in the upper part of the Quinsam that hold cohos most of the time. These guys fish together in motor home caravans. You can forget about fishing in that area because they fish in rotation in the upper end of the river and control the water. They are great at snagging ever fish in the area.
Once in a while I will get to the best holding pool first. I like the expression on their face when they see me. I fish lures and control all the pool. They try to cast in but can't because I cast over their line.
If the fish are there I usually release as many fish as I can hoping that they won't bite again. It is my way of rebuking their fishing etiquette. To no avail for as soon as I leave they are in there flossing every fish or snagging them and keeping them.
The whole concept of fishing has changed since I first started fishing for salmon and steelhead. Lot more people and a lot less fish. As for me I have adapted a different approach to fishing.
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Hrenya, I can think of at least a couple dozen things that are "not fair" in this life, but we have to live with them because that's the way life is. It all depends where you are standing - it is a matter of perspective. For example, I believe among other things that it is not fair that uber rich Asian investors come to Vancouver and Burnaby with millions of dollars and park their money virtually tax-free in prime real estate without even living here, pricing local folk out of the city into the suburbs. But if you ask the Asian investor, they will say it's a great investment opportunity - not something unfair.
Likewise, Hrenya, you cannot dictate who and when should be on the water on any given day. So it is peak season and a rookie fly fishermen is occupying some sweet water? You arrive after him and just because he isn't to your liking, you get upset? So much so that you demand that he practice in a park before hitting the water? Sorry, but that's quite arrogant!! >:(
So according to you, inexperienced anglers had better stay home and let those who know what they are doing have all the fun in peak season?
That is the most preposterous comment I have read in my 15+ years on fishing forums.
FWIW, one of the greatest pleasures of fishing is helping out a newbie angler. Teaching him/her a thing or two and seeing them catch a fish after they implement what you have taught them beats the hell out of catching fish yourself. :)
So next time you see someone taking valuable real estate and not using it accordingly, maybe try and give them a couple of pointers and help them catch a fish rather than bitch and moan and feel your day is ruined because you couldn't fish your chosen pool or run.
Unless you are one of those "it's all about me!" kind of people, in which case nothing I wrote above will resound with you. :-\
Extremely well put Milo !!
whenever I help someone out with casting it is always in a fishing situation. I do this for many reasons but the main one is watching their reaction when they hook up themselves for the first time. I have helped many people with two handed casting over the last few years, during peak salmon time is the best because they get somewhat instant feedback by the fish that they are doing things correctly and I feel it helps
This year I will be out there teaching my soon to be 7yr old how to fly cast a single hander for trout. I'm sure it will be both rewarding and frustrating all at the same time ;D
Hrenya - perhaps you could try and dig yourself out of the hole you put yourself in and get out there with your fly rod and see how others react to you as you struggle to cast and fish while learning. I'm actually a little choked about your reaction to that fly fisherman and shocked you would bring it up publicly >:( you had to have known how it would be perceived by many here.
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I'm so glad I'm not suffering these kind of experiences. I fish like its a big fun game of hide and seek with fish. I do notice other anglers, but just keep moving and looking for fish. I am friendly with everyone, fish around fence posts, avoid combat zones and laugh at the grumpy fishing trolls who seem sadly unhappy.
Fishing is supposed to be FUN, if it's not, your doing it wrong.
and yes you can low hole me, I will not be sticking around anyhow
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i am going to be the guy who plays devils advocate here. i too like bent rods dont suffer from these kind of experience because i am on the move alot but never in these urban waters would i expect to own a curtain piece of water even if i was there first. as these rivers get busier like we have seen we are going to have to get a long. to expect to own a larger than needed section of river will not work with the present day amount of anglers. i personally save the fly gear for interior trout where i first learned to fish and fish gear for salmon and steelhead, so take it for what its worth. hard enough to keep your hands warm in January let alone getting them wet every cast.
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I`m glad that I`m not the only one who thinks the same . But I Still don't get it , why you guys making "a big deal" about me sharing MY THOUGHTS , if you read what I posted more careful you would notice that me and bud left to different spot . It`s not really nice to see how you almost aggressively sharing your thoughts for no reason .
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Quite often the words we share are misinterpreted on the internet.
I'm sure a face to conversation would have yielded a different result.
I try to proof read my stuff before I post. (Not always successful).
You were speaking from frustration I'm sure but you did wane a a bit 8).
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I'm so glad I'm not suffering these kind of experiences. I fish like its a big fun game of hide and seek with fish. I do notice other anglers, but just keep moving and looking for fish. I am friendly with everyone, fish around fence posts, avoid combat zones and laugh at the grumpy fishing trolls who seem sadly unhappy.
Fishing is supposed to be FUN, if it's not, your doing it wrong.
and yes you can low hole me, I will not be sticking around anyhow
X2
Yeah, I am like Rod on this one too.
By way who is this BentRodsGuiding ;D ;D ;D
Silex user
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We get a lot of Europeans come to fish the Campbell Quinsam system. Most of them fly fish.
There is a run in the upper part of the Quinsam that hold cohos most of the time. These guys fish together in motor home caravans. You can forget about fishing in that area because they fish in rotation in the upper end of the river and control the water...
Rotational angling is a recommended way to allow anglers to fish all the water when there are lot's of anglers. It isn't intended to block out other anglers. When you arrive you just get in the rotation - it's like joining a que. Anglers in Europe seldom get to fish public waters and are usually assigned beats on pay for play fisheries. Could be these anglers are fishing a rotation because it is specified in the BC Angling synopsis and are intending to do as the locals do.
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I`m glad that I`m not the only one who thinks the same . But I Still don't get it , why you guys making "a big deal" about me sharing MY THOUGHTS , if you read what I posted more careful you would notice that me and bud left to different spot . It`s not really nice to see how you almost aggressively sharing your thoughts for no reason .
Hrenya, if you read my first reply to you more closely (the one right after you responded directly to me), you will notice that I had given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you respected other anglers, despite you having just said I was WRONG and that I couldn't say "you either have [ettiquette] or you don't, you either respect other anglers or you don't." Despite you "aggressively" saying that MY THOUGHTS that I shared were wrong, I STILL gave you the benefit of the doubt and said you sounded like you respect other anglers. It was only after you then followed that post by saying that the fly fisherman was using the WRONG technique for fishing in "peak season" and that it was the same as you using sturgeon gear at the Cap, it was only then that I said you sounded like you just wanted to be a jerk about it. If you don't want people "aggressively sharing their thoughts," perhaps you should stop "aggressively" sharing yours.
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Sandman's reply X2.
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Sandman's reply X2.
x3
Hrenya, all is cool. We are all here to share our thoughts. Sometimes our thoughts clash and not seldom barbs are exchanged. It's called freedom of expression. Today Sandman and I happen to stand on the same side of the issue. Tomorrow...only God knows. ???
We've been on the opposite ends of many topics in all our years here.
If nothing else, we have learned to agree to disagree.
Which is pretty cool, actually. A fine example of democracy at work (at least until Rodney or Dion decide otherwise). ;D ;D ;D
I echo Bent Rod's comment about fishing meant to be fun. When it isn't anymore, time to find another hobby.
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Hrenya, if you read my first reply to you more closely (the one right after you responded directly to me), you will notice that I had given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you respected other anglers, despite you having just said I was WRONG and that I couldn't say "you either have [ettiquette] or you don't, you either respect other anglers or you don't." Despite you "aggressively" saying that MY THOUGHTS that I shared were wrong, I STILL gave you the benefit of the doubt and said you sounded like you respect other anglers. It was only after you then followed that post by saying that the fly fisherman was using the WRONG technique for fishing in "peak season" and that it was the same as you using sturgeon gear at the Cap, it was only then that I said you sounded like you just wanted to be a jerk about it. If you don't want people "aggressively sharing their thoughts," perhaps you should stop "aggressively" sharing yours.
name me 1 reason why I can`t bring my sturgeon setup , put 20oz or higher , put a spin-n-glow and catch spring ?! I`ve seen that done and it was productive ... so whats wrong ?! except that I won`t use rotate system , but according you guys its cool if I`m a first one at spot
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Give it a rest already ..... :o
Was crowded at all spots today for me.... every spot I went to had people planted like posts ( literally ) along the run ....no 'rotation' at all being followed .... I fished the uppermost head of the run, then packed up and tried another spot....same thing going on there ....no one moving....oh well. Chalked it up to being the weekend.... my weekday fishing days are few and far btwn and usually rains buckets on most of 'em... :o
Did get a little 2 lb rainbow and another little fish .....pikeminnow or whitefish ?!? Let both little scrappers go..
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exactly , u like this kind of etiquette ? :)
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Like ?.... No, but wtf ya gonna do..... I still had fun.... I caught fish.....albeit...tiny.... Didn't see the fenceposts catch fish....
Ya can't expect 'etiquette' on a crowded weekend day after all....
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same feelings ... but not much we can do ...
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Actually, you SHOULD use your sturgeon rod, 20+ weight and spin-n-glow on the Vedder next October... Bring a GoPro camera and mount it on your head please.
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Actually, you SHOULD use your sturgeon rod, 20+ weight and spin-n-glow on the Vedder next October... Bring a GoPro camera and mount it on your head please.
don't have cam , you wanna bring yours ? I found few spots I can do it on vedder
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Actually, you SHOULD use your sturgeon rod, 20+ weight and spin-n-glow on the Vedder next October... Bring a GoPro camera and mount it on your head please.
will cost you , you should fly fish on 1 dock for herring at a 3 raw :D
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Been there, done that.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/blog-2009/090410_02.jpg)
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Been there, done that.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/blog-2009/090410_02.jpg)
with all my respect that doesn't look like 1 dock at 9 am on weekends :)
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Obviously. It's done at the right place at the right time, just like every other method.
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Obviously. It's done at the right place at the right time, just like every other method.
this is my point too . so whats wrong with bar fishing vedder/cap but ok to fly fish on 1 dock for herring in a 3rd raw ?!
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Nothing. Like I said, you should try it out and find out.
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forgot to mention , me my bud and his bro went to 1 of the popular spots for coho , my bud`s bro was too cold and he setup a bar rig and got a coho , me and his bro did the same , another coho landed ... guess what ... I saw a flyfishing bar rig by the time we were leaving :D those guys just were so desperate ... so talking of bar rig , why I cant use it ?! according to people above if someone at the spot spot earlier - they own it , so if I take me and my bud and his bro and we cast bar rigs , pretty sure we can own a pool , what will be the problem if we will do so ?! or 2/3 flyfishing guys do the same ?
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its not like im being stubborn , I just want to understand why someone with gear can do it , and someone with other gear cant .... with using the same amount of water ... maybe even less in my case
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the horse is dead......
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You missed my previous post.
Nothing. Like I said, you should try it out and find out.
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Was out this morning. Saw only 1 fisherman in the 3 hours. Relaxing.
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I don't low hole myself. But I could care less if anyone goes around me and low holes me , as they are usually poor fishermen anyway. I just continue on , and ive hooked fished , where they have gone through. You're there to have fun , so why stress yourself out?
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Hrenya, like Rodney said, bring your sturgeon setup and cast a 20 ounce weight bar rig setup into the Vedder.
Will be fun to watch you. And forgive me if I film it and post it on Youtube titled "beek of the week". ;D
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Give it a rest already ..... :o
Was crowded at all spots today for me.... every spot I went to had people planted like posts ( literally ) along the run ....no 'rotation' at all being followed .... I fished the uppermost head of the run, then packed up and tried another spot....same thing going on there ....no one moving....oh well. Chalked it up to being the weekend.... my weekday fishing days are few and far btwn and usually rains buckets on most of 'em... :o
Did get a little 2 lb rainbow and another little fish .....pikeminnow or whitefish ?!? Let both little scrappers go..
Not every run on the Vedder requires rotational angling. Some are better suited for fenceposting.
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name me 1 reason why I can`t bring my sturgeon setup , put 20oz or higher , put a spin-n-glow and catch spring ?! I`ve seen that done and it was productive ... so whats wrong ?! except that I won`t use rotate system , but according you guys its cool if I`m a first one at spot
No one said you can't. I just said you sound like you want to be a jerk about it. The difference between you bringing a sturgeon rod and a 20+ oz weight to the Cap and the other guy bringing a fly rod is that your gear is over kill. It has nothing to do with you taking up real estate. If you got there first and were bar fishing I would not complain at all about it. What I took offence to was you comparing the fly rod on the Cap to your sturgeon rod there. While the fly rod is perfectly suited to fish the Cap, your sturgeon rod and 20+ oz weight out of place. Sure you can catch fish with it. No one is disputing that. However, you do understand that you do not need a sturgeon rod and 20+ oz weight to bar fish, right? Cap pools are not the Fraser. If you had just asked if you could show up first and toss out bar rig, then I would have said "fill your boots." You would probably lose a lot of lead weights in the river rocks though.
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its not like im being stubborn , I just want to understand why someone with gear can do it , and someone with other gear cant .... with using the same amount of water ... maybe even less in my case
So this thread went sideways a while ago, until this? Why is it acceptable for one form of fishing to take up an entire run, when another equally productive style is frowned upon? Both are perfectly legal, in no way inherently interfere with another persons enjoyment, but the one that is probably less intrusive in cramped quarters is actually considered bad form?
The answer I will likely receive is ethics, but who decided that this was the ethics we had to follow? Who defines what is acceptable? The river has changed, the sport has changed. What was true 50 years ago is not true today. This is not a rhetorical question. I am actually curios, if people fish for fun, and a person is not breaking any laws or interfering with anyone else' enjoyment more than another why is it wrong?
EDIT: In response to sandman's post. Your claim that know one would complain about him using a sturgeon rod is negated by Milo's earlier post about filming it and calling it "Beek of the Week" and Rodney's alluded to reference of the same thing.
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I wonder how productive bar fishing the cap would be
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Simply put...a 20/ounce weight would stick to the bottom and never come out. Overkill...In addition, it would be rather frustrating for Hrenya to deal with all the people casting over his rig and snagging it up. Static and moving lines on the same run don't mix well.
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Actually I'm not implying hrenya is a "beek" if he decides to do so. Seriously, he should go ahead and try to bar fish with a sturgeon rod on the Vedder if he is the first person at the run. I'd be interested to hear his findings. Like what Sandman has said, personally I think it's ridiculous to suggest that you'll actually get some kind of enjoyable using such a heavy setup for salmon in a small system. You have every right to do it, and again, every method has its time and place.
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As Rodney pointed out, there's a time and a place for everything...with that said, I get bored easily and have a tendency to move from place to place. On any given day I'll cover kilometers of river in search of fish.... but kid you not, if I hit a spot where fish are active and hitting I will stay put until the action dies down. Some may refer to it as fence posting....I refer to it as accomplishing the reason for moving in the first place. It's an idiotic notion, if not a bold face lie to say one does not fence post when fish are biting.
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Not every run on the Vedder requires rotational angling. Some are better suited for fenceposting.
Fair enough, I get that..... but have fished these same runs many times ....always on a rotation.
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EDIT: In response to sandman's post. Your claim that know one would complain about him using a sturgeon rod is negated by Milo's earlier post about filming it and calling it "Beek of the Week" and Rodney's alluded to reference of the same thing.
I never said "[no] one would complain about him using a sturgeon rod" I said that no one is saying he can't and that I wouldn't complain if he was bar rigging the pool when I got there (I did point out that you do not need a sturgeon rod and 20oz weight to bar rig in Cap pools as it is not the Fraser).
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I never said "[no] one would complain about him using a sturgeon rod" I said that no one is saying he can't and that I wouldn't complain if he was bar rigging the pool when I got there (I did point out that you do not need a sturgeon rod and 20oz weight to bar rig in Cap pools as it is not the Fraser).
"you do not need..." If need is the criteria we are going to judge by than where do you draw the line? At issue was ones ability to control a pool. I would argue that if one is going to control an entire pool a heavy bar rod is better choice. A sturgeon rod is able to muscle in a fish faster than any fly rod. The longer a fish is played the more lactic acid builds up and the chance of the fishing dying after release goes up significantly. There is no need to increase the risk to the fish, but people choose to. It is about choice. If a person enjoys a certain method that is legal I don't care. Maybe they don't know another way, maybe they can only afford one rod and a bar rod gives them the most options, I don't know. If a person is following the laws, courteous, and takes into account how his actions will affect the fish I support whatever method they choose.
I fly fish, bar fish, spin cast, ice fish, have tried bow fishing, hand fishing and hope to try just about every method out there. Never cared for judging or dictating. At the end of the day, No one needs to fish!!!
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My dad and I fished next to an older gentleman on the canal years ago who was bar fishing, we each hooked up, the old guy hooked 7 in total finally landing the last, smallest fish he had hooked, bonked it and headed home. Did I mention this was in perhaps a 3hr span ??!! :o :o
needless to say he got us thinking........now if bar fishing wasn't so damned boring most of the time :-X
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The best payback of all time happened for me today I was low holed but did not react just kept the disapproval to my self
Even had him react as my fly line swung close to his float with a look towards me in his head shake, not looking for any confrontation at the least he did not fence post and moved through the run accordingly
But the poke on him was I hooked a steel right in front of him and when I landed the fish he came up to see the steelie and commented that was my fish.......no comment from me just smiled inside ;)
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Nice. On the other hand, it sucks when mr low holer comes in and hooks one right below you.
If that's never happened to you, you need to fish more!!!
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Nice. On the other hand, it sucks when mr low holer comes in and hooks one right below you.
If that's never happened to you, you need to fish more!!!
Hate this and it only ever happens to me when I'm out swinging flies. Every damn time the guy even stands there watching me work my way down before stepping in below me. I've even had other fly fishermen do it too !!! >:(
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Hate this and it only ever happens to me when I'm out swinging flies. Every damn time the guy even stands there watching me work my way down before stepping in below me. I've even had other fly fishermen do it too !!! >:(
Sorry about that hook, but you were moving too slow and I could see it just sitting there, I had to steal it out from under you. :/)
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On the grass side below the Keith Wilson Bridge, you can find 2 older gentlemen bar fishing with roe for steelhead. Sometimes I stop to talk to them and you should listen to some of their stories. They do amazingly well barfishing for them.
Anyways, sorry for opening up a can of worm on this matter.
I really really do not mind people walking down below me to fish. It is expected at the Vedder.
I was really surprised when this guy low holed me and gave me heck later when I got closer to him.
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"you do not need..." If need is the criteria we are going to judge by than where do you draw the line? At issue was ones ability to control a pool. I would argue that if one is going to control an entire pool a heavy bar rod is better choice. A sturgeon rod is able to muscle in a fish faster than any fly rod. The longer a fish is played the more lactic acid builds up and the chance of the fishing dying after release goes up significantly. There is no need to increase the risk to the fish, but people choose to. It is about choice. If a person enjoys a certain method that is legal I don't care. Maybe they don't know another way, maybe they can only afford one rod and a bar rod gives them the most options, I don't know. If a person is following the laws, courteous, and takes into account how his actions will affect the fish I support whatever method they choose.
I fly fish, bar fish, spin cast, ice fish, have tried bow fishing, hand fishing and hope to try just about every method out there. Never cared for judging or dictating. At the end of the day, No one needs to fish!!!
Again, I never said I had a problem with using the sturgeon rod, I simply stated it was over kill. It was Hrenya who first said using a fly rod was the wrong gear in peak season, and then said it was the same as him using a sturgeon rod and 20 oz weight. He was the one suggesting the use of the sturgeon rod was as bad as someone using a fly rod to fish for salmon. I only took issue with him drawing a parallel between using a fly rod (there was nothing in Hrenya's post that suggested the fly rod being used was too weak to land a salmon quickly without undue stress (ie: 4wt for Springs), so your suggestion that the sturgeon rod, being a heavier rod is going to be better for the fish, holds no weight (pun intended)), to using a ridiculously heavy rod and weight. Furthermore, fly caught fish have been shown to have lower mortalities by far than bait caught fish, whether float fishing or bar rigging (Schisler et al. 1996). So if releasing fish is the goal, the likelihood of a deep hook set from a swallowed bait on a bar rig is going to offset any advantage the heavier rod will provide. A fly rod is a perfectly legitimate rod to catch salmon, particularly an 8-10 wt rod for larger species and 6/7 for smaller pinks and coho, and can land a fish quickly with enough energy to ensure low mortality (provided proper landing techniques are used). It was Hrenya that said fly fishing in peak season was wrong, as was using a sturgeon rod and 20 oz weight, because both would restrict other anglers from fishing shoulder to shoulder. I never did.
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I really wasn`t trying to be mean about that guy learning how to fly fish , my biggest issue was him taking half a pool ... and from all the times I did fish cap (over 50 trips at least) , I never had that situation . My buddy flyfishes too , and he wasn`t really happy about that situation ever . That was the actual point of mine , but right away you guys start defending him that he has right to learn on a water , causing another dozen people problems and making their fishing NOT FUN . But since you said first come served - I said that I can do that same thing then , I can ask my bud and his bro to bring their flyfishing setups , I squezze in between of them with heavy weight and make sure they have another room to float on both sides of me , and we will take the whole pool . After that part all the negative reactions from you guys started to happen ... So let`s be honest , you protected him and said "big booo" to me , at least this is how I see a situation after all .
p.s. I wanna see you try to hook a fish with float in a really deep pool with flow in it . Imo bar rig and heavy weight is the only way to get you presentation in a right place .
p.p.s. I was watching so many people loosing springs when they hit rapids and were gone with hook , weight and a few feet of line in their mouth ... maybe I try to avoid this kinda situations ?
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My brother (same guy in hryena's story who started bar fishing on Nicomen beside all the float guys and caught the first fish) threw a bar rig with roe in the middle of the pool and proceeded to hook and lose 2 of white chinook, haha. It works, but, floating is way easier and less expensive than snagging bottom over and over in small rivers unlike the fraser. However I wouldnt roll up to a run with people float fishing and throw a bar rig oit ;D.. Might run inyo a problem or two
Tell em about those flyfishing guys :) how by the time we were leaving they setup bar rig on flyrod/reel/lines :D and people were making fun of me with bar fishing with pin :D
p.s. don't forget to mention that you were 2nd guy who caught NICE COHO on a bar rig too :D and how all the people around after that setup bar rigs ;))))
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Hrenya, are you looney tunes man? Get over it. Fish whatever way you dam well please. Milo, Sandman, Rod or anyone cannot stop you from doing what you want.
If someone's fishing is causing you to not have fun, I've got a real quick solution for you and I think you know the answer.
If I want to stand up to my nipples and swing my 13' Spey rod around like a maniac while making helicopter noises, then I'm going to do it. And there's nothing you can do to stop me. So hit the trail, on to the next pool, cause if I get there first you'd better believe I'll be handing out free piercings if anyone gets too close.
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I said that I can do that same thing then , I can ask my bud and his bro to bring their flyfishing setups , I squezze in between of them with heavy weight and make sure they have another room to float on both sides of me , and we will take the whole pool .
Absolutely you can. If you guys get there first and set up like that then that is totally okay. Anyone coming in afterwards would need to find other water to fish. There are already 12 guys on one side and you three on your side, I can't see anyone else wanting in there anyway.
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Absolutely you can. If you guys get there first and set up like that then that is totally okay. Anyone coming in afterwards would need to find other water to fish. There are already 12 guys on one side and you three on your side, I can't see anyone else wanting in there anyway.
u r kidding me ? dude took half a pool , a dozen shared another half , so if in theory 24 people can fish there , but my 2 buds will swing flys and ill be in a middle of a pool with my bar rig - its ok?
so 3 of us early birds can own a pool ? :)
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I know I was in on this earlier (ie when it just started) but really guys.
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag110/djt41020/Mobile%20Uploads/i-admire-your-commitment-to-beating-a-dead-horse-d8ccf_zpsqqpoh7k1.png) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/djt41020/media/Mobile%20Uploads/i-admire-your-commitment-to-beating-a-dead-horse-d8ccf_zpsqqpoh7k1.png.html)
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u r kidding me ? dude took half a pool , a dozen shared another half , so if in theory 24 people can fish there , but my 2 buds will swing flys and ill be in a middle of a pool with my bar rig - its ok?
so 3 of us early birds can own a pool ? :)
Yes. In my 40+ years fishing the Cap, I have never started fishing in a pool that already had 3 guys fishing it, let alone 13 guys. I will reluctantly fish if there are one or two guys, especially if I just hiked 20+ minutes into the pool, and then only if the guys are okay with it and if I can cast and retrieve without interfering with them. Yes, there were one or two times I can remember when I was faced with having to hike out again, without fishing because there were already guys fishing and, since I do not drift fish, there was no room for me. However, tempting it may be for me to say screw it and push way in and cast away, I have more respect for my fellow anglers and their own quiet enjoyment than that.
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tl;dr
There's sturgeon in the cap.
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Different fisheries = different approaches .... Seems to me your comparing salmon season with steelhead season... Hunting down steel that are spread out within a system or waiting for the next "push" of salmon to come through are two very different approaches. Applying "etiquette" from one approach on the other (when speaking of rotational angling or how many guys can fit in a pool)just doesn't work. Although finding a "spot" to fit into a pool and claiming it for an extended period of time(fence posting) while waiting for the fish to come to you does happen in steelhead season(usually by rookie/less experienced steelheaders) it is not the most productive way to approach this fishery. As opposed to salmon season where schools are pushing up river and your essentially waiting for the next push to come through a specific run. If you approach steelheading with the same mindset you use during salmon season then realistically "low holing" doesn't really exist and the frustrations/issues of the "steelheaders" complain about above don't make much sense to you. Each fishery, weather it be salmon or steelhead in smaller rivers,still water trout fishing or sturgeon in the Fraser do share some common overall etiquette (respect other anglers, the fish, the environment your in, etc.) the methods in which the fisheries are approached are different and bring about different etiquette. So IMO trying to apply one set of "ettiequte" to all fisheries is the major disconnect. Know the fishery/species you are targeting and adjust your techniques/etiquette to each specific one.
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Different fisheries = different approaches .... Seems to me your comparing salmon season with steelhead season... Hunting down steel that are spread out within a system or waiting for the next "push" of salmon to come through are two very different approaches. Applying "etiquette" from one approach on the other (when speaking of rotational angling or how many guys can fit in a pool)just doesn't work. Although finding a "spot" to fit into a pool and claiming it for an extended period of time(fence posting) while waiting for the fish to come to you does happen in steelhead season(usually by rookie/less experienced steelheaders) it is not the most productive way to approach this fishery. As opposed to salmon season where schools are pushing up river and your essentially waiting for the next push to come through a specific run. If you approach steelheading with the same mindset you use during salmon season then realistically "low holing" doesn't really exist and the frustrations/issues of the "steelheaders" complain about above don't make much sense to you. Each fishery, weather it be salmon or steelhead in smaller rivers,still water trout fishing or sturgeon in the Fraser do share some common overall etiquette (respect other anglers, the fish, the environment your in, etc.) the methods in which the fisheries are approached are different and bring about different etiquette. So IMO trying to apply one set of "ettiequte" to all fisheries is the major disconnect. Know the fishery/species you are targeting and adjust your techniques/etiquette to each specific one.
x2, exactly right
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X 3
Also, on the Cap (and other rivers) the number of cars parked at a particular spot also dictate if the hike will be worth it.
I usually have a plan B, C, D... And something PVR-ed; if I haven't travelled too far 8)
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At the Cap when people are in my "secret" spot I turn away and find somewhere else to fish or go observe Cable Pool for a few giggles.
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So IMO trying to apply one set of "ettiequte" to all fisheries is the major disconnect. Know the fishery/species you are targeting and adjust your techniques/etiquette to each specific one.
Yes, and no. My own "set of etiquette" is not so specific as it involves not doing something that has a reasonable chance it will spoil another angler's enjoyment (low holing in steelhead season or crowding in beside them in salmon season), so it is indeed a set that I can apply to any situation in any season. It also allows me to shrug off the loser that low holes me when he can clearly see me working down the run, then complain that I am crowding him as I continue down to where he is. Since he is being unreasonable, I can continue on knowing I am not the reason he is not enjoying himself (it is his own sour attitude).
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Yes, and no. My own "set of etiquette" is not so specific as it involves not doing something that has a reasonable chance it will spoil another angler's enjoyment (low holing in steelhead season or crowding in beside them in salmon season), so it is indeed a set that I can apply to any situation in any season. It also allows me to shrug off the loser that low holes me when he can clearly see me working down the run, then complain that I am crowding him as I continue down to where he is. Since he is being unreasonable, I can continue on knowing I am not the reason he is not enjoying himself (it is his own sour attitude).
Agreed! I would include that in the "common ettiequte" I referred to. I was meaning that different fisheries/technics can also require different aspects/forms of etiquette along with the standard common decency/respect aspects.
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how about this ?!
on Saturday I met up with 2 buddys of mine and a guy who said he will teach me steelhead fishing (really nice friendly person , we txt`ed a lot , quite a few email , and finally we met up!!!) , we headed to a river , we fished lower and moved up after a bit . My bud and my teacher got above the crowd of guys fishing "kinda in a middle" , I checked water and decided to fish below them , cuz they were stuck to "their" spot , after I asked a guy lowest to the run - can I fish below you ? - you should see his eyes , I bet he never heard this , next thing he said - sure ... I spent 10-15 mins and head to my bud and teacher . One of the guys from the crowd was b/b :)))) and his line did crossed with my teacher`s line ... that guy just cut it of ....
where is common sense ?! b/b vs float fishing ? :D
after a while situation became really bad , and I asked a few times my teacher to leave those guys and head to different spot . 1 of the guys from "crowd that owns that spot" came to him and said that it wasn`t right to cut his line w/o asking him or any attempts trying to fix the crossline situation . The guy who cut line of my teacher was yelling - this is not vedder/Chilliwack , your rules don't apply here ...
You guys can still argue about my opinion about that flyfisherman , but this situation is sooooo wrong ....
p.s. my teacher stopped fishing when I got to them and start telling me and my bud about water , how and where sh might be , he explained more time than he was fishing ....
p.p.s. me and buds left around 12 , and head hoping for some trout in upper lakes , we came back couple hours after - same "crowd" , same spot ....
what do you think about about it ?! combat sh fishing ? :D that sounds SOOOOOOOOO WROOOOONG
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how about this ?!
on Saturday I met up with 2 buddys of mine and a guy who said he will teach me steelhead fishing (really nice friendly person , we txt`ed a lot , quite a few email , and finally we met up!!!) , we headed to a river , we fished lower and moved up after a bit . My bud and my teacher got above the crowd of guys fishing "kinda in a middle" , I checked water and decided to fish below them , cuz they were stuck to "their" spot , after I asked a guy lowest to the run - can I fish below you ? - you should see his eyes , I bet he never heard this , next thing he said - sure ... I spent 10-15 mins and head to my bud and teacher . One of the guys from the crowd was b/b :)))) and his line did crossed with my teacher`s line ... that guy just cut it of ....
where is common sense ?! b/b vs float fishing ? :D
after a while situation became really bad , and I asked a few times my teacher to leave those guys and head to different spot . 1 of the guys from "crowd that owns that spot" came to him and said that it wasn`t right to cut his line w/o asking him or any attempts trying to fix the crossline situation . The guy who cut line of my teacher was yelling - this is not vedder/Chilliwack , your rules don't apply here ...
You guys can still argue about my opinion about that flyfisherman , but this situation is sooooo wrong ....
p.s. my teacher stopped fishing when I got to them and start telling me and my bud about water , how and where sh might be , he explained more time than he was fishing ....
p.p.s. me and buds left around 12 , and head hoping for some trout in upper lakes , we came back couple hours after - same "crowd" , same spot ....
what do you think about about it ?! combat sh fishing ? :D that sounds SOOOOOOOOO WROOOOONG
Inform your teacher, he is teaching the wrong lessons. Inform him, he gets a D- and has failed the class.
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Sorry Wiseguy.
Perhaps we need some clarification first.
Beyond fishing an apparently crowded area...
Who's line crossed who's?
Who cut who's line?
It's easy to find dough heads anywhere and just as easy to avoid them most of the time.
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Inform your teacher, he is teaching the wrong lessons. Inform him, he gets a D- and has failed the class.
I`m too polite to tell to you where to "go" and what to "do" ...
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Sorry Wiseguy.
Perhaps we need some clarification first.
Beyond fishing an apparently crowded area...
Who's line crossed who's?
Who cut who's line?
It's easy to find dough heads anywhere and just as easy to avoid them most of the time.
dude who was b/b with a really long leader , crossed over my teacher`s line , and after they had crossed lines he just cut it , without even asking ... plz note we were above them , and with all the crowd that was the only accident with crossed line cuz of b/b dude ....
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I`m too polite to tell to you where to "go" and what to "do" ...
Quit asking for others' opinions and coming up with replies like the above when others give you their opinions unless you want to be deleted.
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Quit asking for others' opinions and coming up with replies like the above when others give you their opinions unless you want to be deleted.
I didn't ask his opinion , I gave an example of "etiquette" on a river with "fence around some spots" during sh fishing , not salmon as some ppl mentioned above ... and I don't see anything wrong with my comment posted above , you can think of many ways to interpritate it
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You didn't?
what do you think about about it ?!
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So you ended up in a fight with the resident BB gang at Stave right :P? If I guessed right then there's nothing you and your friends could have done better to prevent it...except avoid it altogether. Some places are just not worth the hassle. Unfortunately ignorant fishers can be found in all fisheries, there's staked out bars on Fraser where you can't fish like ever.. not much different than what you described. Just fish by a good standard, chin up and learn to move on, you can do better than some of those characters.
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I did felt embaressed that I could do nothing to prevent those ppl making my teacher angry , he is old school pro high etique guy , that was probably 2nd situation I had as described above I had no fun fishing . Lucky me it was pretty easy to explain that it is easier to ignore them and move to different spot , cuz those guys won`t change their mind .... I don't like violence ... and I always try to prevent it ... and I did my part to prevent that ... but I still have even more respect to my teacher who tried to argue about etiquette and rules , although those guys were still yelling that "its not vedder" ... sad but true
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just toss an old boxspring in the middle of the run and wish them good luck on your way out LOL
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just toss an old boxspring in the middle of the run and wish them good luck on your way out LOL
Like the river needs any more junk in it... ::)
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or on it ;D
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. . . this is not vedder/Chilliwack , your rules don't apply here ...
That is priceless! Usually it's the other way around and they are saying this IS the Vedder, your rules [of ettiquette] don't apply here.
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All those different rules for different rivers... :o
Any of you guys know of a book one could buy to study them?
Or a website? Maybe an app?
No?
How about rules of common sense and courtesy then?
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There are not different rules for different bodies of water. There is etiquette, which is treat others as you would like to be treated. Too many anglers were never taught etiquette, all they were taught was "catch the fish". Very similar to "road rage", "butting into line", acting like they are the only one that matters.
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There are not different rules for different bodies of water. There is etiquette, which is treat others as you would like to be treated. Too many anglers were never taught etiquette, all they were taught was "catch the fish". Very similar to "road rage", "butting into line", acting like they are the only one that matters.
Very true, seen a fair bit of it on the Squamish when the pinks were running. Guys casting on top of other peoples lines when they had a fish on, bottom bouncing at the top of a run, wedging themselves between people who are about 15 feet apart cause "I see you catching fish! I fish here too!"
Common sense and courtesy is becoming more rare especially when people think of fish before anything else. Not so sure why it's so important... I am out to have fun, catching something is only a bonus and sometimes making a friend or two.