Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: chris gadsden on May 23, 2013, 04:36:38 PM
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This will keep the PAP boys busy for a few hours of research and typing. ;D ;D
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2013/05/in-answer-to-the-controversy-around-salmon-confidential.html
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Thanks Chris for posting that..... interesting responses.
Anonymous blogger: claims wild salmon populations in BC are on a natural boom and bust cycle and because I don’t have a Dr. in front of my name no one should hear me out.
My response: When the CFIA and DFO confiscated the first-ever publicly reported ISA virus positive samples found in BC, they gave them to Mrs. Nelle Gagne for confirmation testing. Mrs. Gagne does not have a Dr. in front of her name and yet she testified at the Cohen Commission to counter to the findings of Dr. Miller, Dr. Kibenge and Dr. Nylund. Her resume submitted to the inquiry states: 1997- PhD. Molecular and cellular biology. Laval University, Québec. Paused after 5 years. Canada is resting their entire opinion on whether ISA virus is in BC or not or not on a scientist who does not have a “Dr.” in front of her name.
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That Morton has no Dr. Infront of her name has been the gist of the dirty fish pro groups arguement. WTF are they going to do now? Giving up is still better than trying to defend bad farming practices.
Just giving them an honourable out.
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Another big yawn here ;D Perhaps Ms. Morton could explain why Chilliwack Lake sockeye have increased exponentially (less than 5k in the 70's to an est 140K last year) during the time of increasing salmon farming in BC? Mayhaps someone, anyone? attending her Gala Event could ask ...
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Because they're American fish. They migrate out through Puget Sound.
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You would probably get some answers there if you attend. ;D Maybe they even have one of those smoke/confessional lodges to come clean on your part of defending the dirty fish scandle. ;) I for one won't be doing any leg work for the answers you seek, even if I attend the gala. :-X You already know that those fish are coming in from the outside of the island.
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Morton-Dr has not proven herself before. Trying to explain herself now is a bit late. I am not buying back into her American home made propaganda. No fish farms in Alaska? 1.7 billion salmon farmed each year in Alaska tells a different story. Washington and the west coast of Vancouver Island farms Atlantic's. what way the salmon go out to sea makes no difference.
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You would probably get some answers there if you attend. ;D Maybe they even have one of those smoke/confessional lodges to come clean on your part of defending the dirty fish scandle. ;) I for one won't be doing any leg work for the answers you seek, even if I attend the gala. :-X You already know that those fish are coming in from the outside of the island.
I'll do a little of your leg work. The Chilliwack fish go right through Johnstone Strait and the Discovery Islands, just like all other Fraser sockeye, except the Harrison sockeye. So do South Thompson Chinook, which have also been taking off recently.
I love Twyla's comment re: the doctored testimony "All films require editing, however, the integrity of the testimony was preserved". That's rich. Ask Dr Miller what she thinks about her manipulated testimony and if the integrity was preserved.
What a joke. Time to break this gem back out, in honour of ALMO and Ms. Roscovich's editorial talents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI-fcc5iv2k
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Because they're American fish. They migrate out through Puget Sound.
8)
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Must be tough for the feedlot boys to hear that the website they are getting all their "info" from, doesn't know the facts or is outright twisting the truth.
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It appears to me that Morton may have eaten to much of Alaska's feedlot salmon. You know, the American propaganda eating farmed salmon IQ report and all. To bad she does not have the media coverage she once had. Must be hard on her losing followers and donations. :(
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It appears to me that Morton may have eaten to much of Alaska's feedlot salmon. You know, the American propaganda eating farmed salmon IQ report and all. To bad she does not have the media coverage she once had. Must be hard on her losing followers and donations. :(
Money pouring in, thanks for your donations in the past. :D :D
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Money pouring in, thanks for your donations in the past. :D :D
You are very welcome Chris. Can you link me to any documentation that proves my donations to Morton's cause went to any salmon habitat restoration? Or any info on how much money is pouring in and just where it goes?
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Must be tough for the bank boy to hear that the "biologist" he is getting all their "info" from, doesn't know the facts or is outright twisting the truth.
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Or any info on how much money is pouring in and just where it goes?
Many people want to see the accounting of these various donations Fisherbob. Wonder why we never do ... ::)
That's OK though as apparently the money keeps pouring in. Incredible how naive some people are but explains how that Nigerian dude pays his bills.
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Many people want to see the accounting of these various donations Fisherbob. Wonder why we never do ... ::)
That's OK though as apparently the money keeps pouring in. Incredible how naive some people are but explains how that Nigerian dude pays his bills.
Maybe a deal can be arranged..... The feedlots allow Morton to test their fish and release the secret disease records in exchange for......
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You are very welcome Chris. Can you link me to any documentation that proves my donations to Morton's cause went to any salmon habitat restoration? Or any info on how much money is pouring in and just where it goes?
I would suggest as you sent funds in the past that you send a note to that address and ask for the information you seek.
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Personaly I think Morton should show the feedlot boys what transparency really is and already have her income donations and where the money goes available to the public.
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I'll do a little of your leg work. The Chilliwack fish go right through Johnstone Strait and the Discovery Islands, just like all other Fraser sockeye, except the Harrison sockeye. So do South Thompson Chinook, which have also been taking off recently.
I love Twyla's comment re: the doctored testimony "All films require editing, however, the integrity of the testimony was preserved". That's rich. Ask Dr Miller what she thinks about her manipulated testimony and if the integrity was preserved.
What a joke. Time to break this gem back out, in honour of ALMO and Ms. Roscovich's editorial talents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI-fcc5iv2k
The film used editing to hide what scientists like Dr. Miller really said. One only has to READ the Cohen Final Report or look at the actual transcripts to find that what some scientists said is different in the film. In that respect, how can Twyla say that the "integrity of the testimony was preserved"?! What a joke is right! Perfect time to show that video clip, nibs. Says it all. Nice to be back from eastern Canada.
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Must be tough for the feedlot boys to hear that the website they are getting all their "info" from, doesn't know the facts or is outright twisting the truth.
Maybe they are not getting any of their information from that website because they work with salmon already. However, feel free to disagree and provide your own facts (never provided anyway), banker boy....lol.
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This will keep the PAP boys busy for a few hours of research and typing. ;D ;D
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2013/05/in-answer-to-the-controversy-around-salmon-confidential.html
Not a lot of researching require for this, but definitely more typing, Chris. Maybe if your leadership would have read the Cohen Report, understood (and avoided editing) what Dr. Miller was saying during the inquiry or talked to people like Scott Hinch this would have been much shorter.
If Ms Morton agrees with the Tucker et al 2009 paper that Harrison Sockeye were reported to be overwintering off the coast of the West Coast of Vancouver Island then she should also be interested to know that there are salmon farms there also. However, I am interested how she is certain that Harrison Sockeye are 60 km away from the salmon farms along the southern route around Vancouver Island. I would be interested to know of what recent trawl or telemetry studies have determined this. Interestingly, her map conveniently shows Harrison Sockeye migrating out into the open ocean after leaving the Strait of Juan de Fuca, apparently missing fish farms on WCVI, but how does she know that they do not travel close to the coastline or spend part of their life history in the inlets of the WCVI - amongst fish farms? Other Fraser Sockeye smolts travel close to the BC coastline, but her map has Harrison smolts going straight out into the open ocean – with the line ending abruptly well off-shore from the Alberni Inlet. Secondly, if she trusts Dr. Garver’s testimony then how can those 65 billion viral particles produced by salmon farms on the WCVI somehow avoid passing salmon smolts that may migrate close to the coastline? Is she saying that viral particles are somehow “contained” on WCVI fish farms and do not spread to migrated salmon smolts? If so, what is her evidence of this? Her dilution theory is a weak argument because it ignores the possibility that Harrison Sockeye could be residing for part of their life history in WCVI inlets that have salmon farms. Ocean currents, tidal currents and upwelling are not exclusive to the Campbell River area. Lastly, although not many, some Harrison Sockeye have been caught at the northern end of the Strait of Georgia (Beamish et al 2010).
The truth of the matter is that we know very little about the migration juvenile Pacific salmonids, especially Harrison Sockeye. Fisheries biologists that work with Sockeye understand these gaps, but apparently Ms Morton does not. We are starting to know more with recent work by Dr Welch, but the chapter is far from complete. The gaps in our knowledge about Harrison Sockeye were highlighted by Justice Cohen in Volume 3, Chapter 2 of the Final Report. I will highlight this for Ms Morton and her followers once again:
There is also uncertainty about the migratory route the Harrison River population takes after it leaves the Strait of Georgia. It is hypothesized that some or all migrate through Juan de Fuca Strait to the west coast of Vancouver Island, but the evidence is incomplete. Neither is it known how far north the fish migrate and where they reside during their marine life history. Improving our understanding of these migratory patterns may provide additional insight into Fraser River sockeye production processes. – Justice Bruce Cohen, Volume 3, Chapter 2, page 62.
Did anyone get that? As painful as it sounds to fish farm critics, we need to improve our knowledge about their marine life history of Harrison Sockeye. However, Ms Morton fails once again to acknowledge this from Cohen’s Final Report, but I understand why because the Harrison Sockeye’s success and the image (i.e. avoid fish farms) that she built around them are key to her opposition to BC fish farms. My main issue with her theories about Harrison Sockeye is that she only looks at one aspect of their life history – migration route. When you look at Harrison Sockeye more in depth you will find out that they have a rather unique life history compared to other Fraser River Sockeye. Age structure (3 and 4 year olds), protracted river entry of adults, lake residency of spawning adults prior to spawning, immediate migration of juveniles from freshwater to saltwater, juvenile residency and duration in the Strait of Georgia are just some of those unique features. Harrison Sockeye share some similarities to Pink Salmon when you really think about it. When you look at the success of Pink Salmon in the North Pacific it would be interesting to see if there is something about the life history strategies of those salmon that has contributed to their success. As to this Juan de Fuca route being the reason for the success of the Harrison, that is not entirely certain either as Washington State Sockeye (that take the same assumed route) have shown similar decreased productivity to other Fraser Sockeye CUs (Read Cohen Technical Report #10). Unfortunately Ms Morton and her followers do not like to look beyond the narrow scope they have limited themselves to.
Ms Morton would also be interested to know that Harrison Sockeye can experience high enroute mortality in some years (Hinch et al 2012). In addition, the film’s website makes false claims stating that Harrison Sockeye do not die prior to spawning. The fact is that adult Harrison Sockeye can experience very high prespawn mortality from early August to early October. For instance, if Ms Morton was at Harrison Mills in those months in 2011 she would have seen this. The naturalists, anglers and the field workers that frequent the river have seen this prespawn mortality, so what the film states is absolutely false. I am surprised that Ms Morton has not taken the time to get her facts straight on this.
As for Mr. Erikkson’s examination of salmon carcasses? What else can be said other than very, very sad. I initially laughed, but then I became concerned that others could be taking what he is saying seriously. An experienced angler (who does not have to be a fisheries biologist) could have done a better job describing those carcasses.
The film does an injustice to our broader understanding of salmon by focusing only on salmon farming. If the film took a broader approach by incorporating other factors instead of just lip service then it would not have been as big a joke as it is now. It carefully edits most of Dr. Miller’s testimony to display what Ms Morton wants to show. Again, if muzzling is such a big deal then let all of Miller’s testimony given equal time. Really, Ms Roscovich and Ms Morton are no better than government when it comes to allowing scientists to explain their findings to the public. Lastly, the film should have at least brought in very relevant and current research by others like Scott Hinch. How can we begin discussing enroute and prespawn mortality without even mentioning and discussing research from Scott Hinch and his team? Well, the film conveniently does not mention this research. Must be that awarding winning film editing that maintains the integrity of the testimony that is responsible. The “Rock Bottom” skit from The Simpson’s was very fitting for Twyla’s film.
http://www3.carleton.ca/fecpl/pdfs/JFB%20-%20Hinch%20et%20al%202012.pdf
http://www.richardbeamish.com/uploads/1/6/0/0/16007202/1283canada.pdf
http://www.sfu.ca/grow/science/resources/1273768297.pdf
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This will keep the PAP boys busy for a few hours of research and typing. ;D ;D
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2013/05/in-answer-to-the-controversy-around-salmon-confidential.html
Good call Chris!
Who would have known that one of the feedlot boys would spend hours typing out what the anonymous website has already published. :o ........probably not a lot of research involved though. ???
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Will you be attending the "Gala Event" af? So far it's just Fast Eddie and AlMo as far as I can tell.
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Thank you Steve. You put more thought and leg work into your post than Morton put into her tweet. I do not know why she would bother trying to explain her already debunked circus side show. Must be just so the fish farm hate club have something to parrot.
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Good call Chris!
Who would have known that one of the feedlot boys would spend hours typing out what the anonymous website has already published. :o ........probably not a lot of research involved though. ???
While the anonymous website did post something on Harrison Sockeye their post is not like what I posted. In fact I never referred to the anonymous website when I posted my last response. Some of the information was from peer reviewed material that I didn't not get from the anonymous website. The rest of it was from my own experience. Hmmm....I wonder what I do for a living, banker boy...lol?
How is your foot tasting?
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How is your foot tasting?
Welcome back SS and congratulations on your latest addition to the family.
I know af has missed you ;D
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Steve's home! Extra baby time means more sleepless nights and more thorough and comprehensive skewerings of these guys.
You gave her the middle name Alexandra I hope?
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Yay!!!! copy paste
garbage out garbage in
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Yay!!!! copy paste
garbage out garbage in
???
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Steve's home! Extra baby time means more sleepless nights and more thorough and comprehensive skewerings of these guys.
You gave her the middle name Alexandra I hope?
good one.
Maybe "Dr" in front of her name?
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=294
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???
X2
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http://vimeo.com/70399899
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Every time I see one of these videos I cant help but to see the image of the homer simpsons interview where the clock in the back grounds time is jumping all over the place in my head.
Whats the link to that again? Priceless ;D
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http://www.rcinet.ca/console.php?id=6769886&image=http://img.src.ca/2013/07/23/635x357/130723_d73ny_rci-salmon-confidential_sn635.jpg&locale=en
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Here you go Aquapaloosa. Perfect time for this gem to be shown again...lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSfrbqCQr78
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I wonder which identities twila and am used for those interviews in Norway?
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I wonder which identities twila and am used for those interviews in Norway?
Dissention will not be tolerated! You obviously do not love wild salmon! :P
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blaw ...blaw .....blaw.....
identities........Dissention..................blaw ......be ....blaw.......blaw ...blaw..
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blaw ...blaw .....blaw.....
identities........Dissention..................blaw ......be ....blaw.......blaw ...blaw..
When you do not have facts to stand behind, dazzle them with blaw. Looks like it was a bit past your bed time fishbreath LOL. :)
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http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2013/07/26/association-voices-concerns-about-salmon-confidential-film-documentary/
And from Alex "The interviewer did a good job, he was well-informed, but Mary Ellen Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association does what she can to avoid the subject of viruses from salmon farms infecting the wild salmon. I would like to publicly debate you Ms Walling - name the time and place - I will be there."
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And from Alex "The interviewer did a good job, he was well-informed, but Mary Ellen Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association does what she can to avoid the subject of viruses from salmon farms infecting the wild salmon. I would like to publicly debate you Ms Walling - name the time and place - I will be there."
Wheres the link to this Chris? You would think that morton would want to have such a public debate with a spectrum qualified professionals.
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Wheres the link to this Chris? You would think that morton would want to have such a public debate with a spectrum qualified professionals.
FB.
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http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2013/07/26/association-voices-concerns-about-salmon-confidential-film-documentary/
And from Alex "The interviewer did a good job, he was well-informed, but Mary Ellen Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association does what she can to avoid the subject of viruses from salmon farms infecting the wild salmon. I would like to publicly debate you Ms Walling - name the time and place - I will be there."
Strange how Ms Morton is so eager to debate Ms Walling publically, but is unwilling to discuss these issues with members on this forum where she has the benefit of taking her time in responding and even using Google. Of course she is going to say that she does not respond to people with fake names, but the truth is that she does respond up until the point she has difficulty backing up her arguments with facts. After that point she uses excuses like that for not engaging in discussion which is actually respectful for the most part.
Personally, I thought that a person like Dr. Marty should have been interviewed rather than Ms Walling. She wasn't terrible, but her responses were too rehearsed for my own liking. I would have liked to have seen some of the responses more detailed. They could have been, but she is not a fish veterinarian, a virologist or histologist. Some people do better at media interviews than others. On the other hand, Marty knows the topics and can provide that level of detail as well as context. Ms Morton is smart to try to debate Ms Walling because it is an easy target; however, try someone like Dr. Marty and Ms Morton would have a more difficult time trying to BS the audience.
I thought the RCI interviewer gave Ms Roscovich a pretty easy time. The interviewer was well-informed? About what? It was actually kind of funny to listen to because it felt more like an infomercial than an interview. I was waiting for the Ginsu Knives to be offered as a gift if a donation was made. The questions were not challenging at all until the last few minutes of the interview where it was mentioned that another website with an almost similar name was challenging her film's theories. Oh well, I am not that surprised or that heart broken. When I watch the episode of Rock Bottom on the Simpsons it puts it all in perspective and I get a good laugh out of it.