Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: chris gadsden on August 10, 2017, 05:37:51 AM
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Dear Rebecca:
Considering the significant number of First Nations chinook openings & allowed retention of sockeye by catch it would appear that conservation concerns for chinook have diminished thus allowing for a recreational chinook fishery on the Fraser. Our recreational bar fishery for chinook is truly selective & we suggest has demonstrated the least impact of any fishery on sockeye stocks of concern. As you are aware we continue to support regulation changes to ensure selectivity & we support spot closure deemed necessary where selective fishing may not occur.
A very large segment of the Fraser River recreational community practices selective fishing and the chinook bar fishery as well as the jack spring fishery has been a very important family fishery practiced on many areas of the Fraser River for generations. To continue to deny this fishery while other sectors have significant allotments is not defensible. Our total annual catch of chinook is small in comparison to other fisheries.
Our organizations continue to support conservation & continue to offer to work with your staff. We only ask that our fishery be given the respect due & that our rights as Canadian citizens are recognized.
Thank you for your consideration & the anticipated opening of our chinook fishery.
Rod Clapton
Co Chair Fraser River Sport Fishing Alliance
Fred Helmer
Co Chair Fraser River Sport Fishing Alliance
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August 09 2017
To Rebecca Reid RDG
Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada :
Dear Rebecca
My name is Nick Basok and I am the vice president of the Fraser Valley Salmon Society based out of the city of Chilliwack, the hub of the Fraser river sportfishing on the Fraser river. It appears that the Chinook numbers in the test fishery on Fraser river are now starting to climb and this must mean that the Chinook conservation concerns should be diminishing therefore allowing a chance for a recreational sportfishery on these fish.The first nations fishers have had numerous openings for the past 8 weeks catching Chinooks by fishing selectively but also harvesting numbers of sockeye as by catch. This last fact leads me to believe that the sockeye conservation concern is not in as dire straits as was portrayed a few weeks ago. The recreational fishery for Chinook is done by using selective methods which do not target sockeye while still allowing a harvest on target species.This is a family based fishery which should allow for recreational fishers to harvest some species while allowing weaker stocks to continue their migration to the interior spawning grounds. The negative economic impact on our area without some sort of opportunity is enormous and effects many different venues of sportfishing.The FVSS recognizes the rights of First Nations constitutionally protected FSC fisheries and regulation changes to recreational anglers to fish selectively but we also wish to be allowed to share this fishery with our neighbours as we are Canadians also.
Hopefully an opening will be coming sooner rather than later. Thankyou for taking the time to honour our request for a sportfishery in this area.
Nick Basok
Vice president-Fraser Valley Salmon Society
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Others may wish to write too and post here too.
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Others may wish to write too and post here too.
At this point if they are going to open the Fraser they might as well open it for
Pinks too that are expected to be in abudence.
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An opening for pinks in the tidal is totally acceptable.
Much less of a chance to bounce for anything in the tidal zone.
Not many in there now but there should be in a couple of weeks.
Selective (bar) fishing for Chinook seems reasonable too - the problem Sockeye runs have gone through.
Love to see any responses to the letters.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
DFO - Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Reply: NO OPENINGS for RECREATIONAL FISHERY
You the "Sport & Recreational segment" mean nothing.
Your meaningless. Your pathetic.
Please stop writing these hopeless letters.
We will NOT LISTEN to you.
It's unbelievable that after 50 years ... you actually think that we care about the Recreational Fishery.
You are LAST on our agenda -> FIRST to be neglected & ignored.
We will continue to introduce BIZARRE "Suggested Fishing Methods".
We will continue to implement Unnecessary Closures.
We will confuse even the already confused.
It's all part of our plan of INCOMPETENCE.
We hope you enjoy the misdirection. It's all part of our "Master Plan".
Please continue to purchase your "Tidal Licences" & Stamps.
We enjoy taking your money and offering no opportunities.
We are the DFO.
Certainly not here to serve you.
Have another crappy day.... your fishery is CLOSED!
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DFO - Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Reply: NO OPENINGS for RECREATIONAL FISHERY
You the "Sport & Recreational segment" mean nothing.
Your meaningless. Your pathetic.
Please stop writing these hopeless letters.
We will NOT LISTEN to you.
It's unbelievable that after 50 years ... you actually think that we care about the Recreational Fishery.
You are LAST on our agenda -> FIRST to be neglected & ignored.
We will continue to introduce BIZARRE "Suggested Fishing Methods".
We will continue to implement Unnecessary Closures.
We will confuse even the already confused.
It's all part of our plan of INCOMPETENCE.
We hope you enjoy the misdirection. It's all part of our "Master Plan".
Please continue to purchase your "Tidal Licences" & Stamps.
We enjoy taking your money and offering no opportunities.
We are the DFO.
Certainly not here to serve you.
Have another crappy day.... your fishery is CLOSED!
Actually, it is open between the Sweetwater bridge and the North Alabama Pipeline with retention of 1 Chinook over 54 cm and 10 sockeye. You may only fish between the hours of 8:45 am and 9:12 am with no longer than 2 cm leader and more than 50 pounds of weight. Our effort to further confuse and frustrate you will continue until you blather like complete idiots non stop. Both these places are imaginary so sit there, enjoy your nurse fed applesauce and try not to bother your neighbors with your blathering.
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The DFO is staffed by many passionate, talented, and hard-working people. Most are doing the best they can, while balancing competing demands from politicians, environmental legislation, the media, rec anglers, FN anglers, and commercial anglers.
I'm not bothered by people trashing DFO's policies but it irks me when I see posts RANTING and RaVING in CAPITAL LETTERS and bright COLOURS, insulting people who, for the most part, are doing their job to the best of their ability. Heck, some of those DFO people may even agree with some of your gripes but their hands are tied, for one reason or another. The snark is real but not constructive.
(I'm not associated with DFO in any way... it just irks me when an entire professional field, filled with people we've never met, is insulted because someone needs to have a tantrum ::) )
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DFO is the only government department to make ordinary Canadians realize that they are the 2nd or 3rd class citizens when it comes to fishery management. We are treated as if we don't count while they appease/serve their other masters in ways much more than necessary under their so called mandates. Of course we understand natives have their rights but does it have to be so lobsided in the manner it is being managed by DFO? That one side can kill 100s of thousands of a run (sockeye) DFO consider in danger while we have zero participation (and we get it), but that we aren't even allowed the opportunity to target the spring salmon which is not a threatened species while the other side is having nets all over the place killing everything? This is happening year after year. This while we are the group paying for our licenses to support the budget of this incompetent and ungrateful government department and the other group not paying a cent. Does it have to be so lobsided as if we the hardworking Canadians who pay taxes and buy licenses don't count? Really, DFO which is staffed and run by mostly non-native Canadians should have more heart for their fellow Canadians who deserve their rights to fish too when their fishing is not going to impact the threatened species.
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DFO - Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Reply: NO OPENINGS for RECREATIONAL FISHERY
You the "Sport & Recreational segment" mean nothing.
Your meaningless. Your pathetic.
Please stop writing these hopeless letters.
We will NOT LISTEN to you.
It's unbelievable that after 50 years ... you actually think that we care about the Recreational Fishery.
You are LAST on our agenda -> FIRST to be neglected & ignored.
We will continue to introduce BIZARRE "Suggested Fishing Methods".
We will continue to implement Unnecessary Closures.
We will confuse even the already confused.
It's all part of our plan of INCOMPETENCE.
We hope you enjoy the misdirection. It's all part of our "Master Plan".
Please continue to purchase your "Tidal Licences" & Stamps.
We enjoy taking your money and offering no opportunities.
We are the DFO.
Certainly not here to serve you.
Have another crappy day.... your fishery is CLOSED!
There's more to tidal fishing than just salmon.
There's more places to fish tidal waters than the LM.
There's more to fishing than just tidal waters.
There's more to life than fishing.
There's more to communicating than ranting.
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It has been proven time and time again that fishers will not selectively fish when there is an opening for Chinook.
Maybe they are fed up with watching the many bars filled with flossers not discriminately fishing.
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This while we are the group paying for our licenses to support the budget of this incompetent and ungrateful government department and the other group not paying a cent. Does it have to be so lobsided as if we the hardworking Canadians who pay taxes and buy licenses don't count? Really, DFO which is staffed and run by mostly non-native Canadians should have more heart for their fellow Canadians who deserve their rights to fish too when their fishing is not going to impact the threatened species.
That is some very broad and uneducated assumptions made. I am full status Canadian FN and I pay my share of taxes (to the tune of $13,351.00 in income tax last year.) That does not include the GST and PST that I pay for every day purchases just like everyone else. I also purchase my fishing licence every year just like you do also...
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The DFO is staffed by many passionate, talented, and hard-working people. Most are doing the best they can, while balancing competing demands from politicians, environmental legislation, the media, rec anglers, FN anglers, and commercial anglers.
I'm not bothered by people trashing DFO's policies but it irks me when I see posts RANTING and RaVING in CAPITAL LETTERS and bright COLOURS, insulting people who, for the most part, are doing their job to the best of their ability. Heck, some of those DFO people may even agree with some of your gripes but their hands are tied, for one reason or another. The snark is real but not constructive.
(I'm not associated with DFO in any way... it just irks me when an entire professional field, filled with people we've never met, is insulted because someone needs to have a tantrum ::) )
I don't work for the DFO and have no association with them whatsoever and I completely agree with above. Instead of ranting here, people should be running for office or lobbying for change through organized groups. Otherwise their rants here - are just that and this forum is not a conducive avenue nor venue for voice of change.
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DFO gets no funding from Sport fishing license sales. License fees in non-tidal waters go to a Provincial Agency. In most cases in Canada (both Federal and Provincial) license fees go to General Revenue. It's long been demonstrated that the cost of managing the Commercial Salmon fisheries exceeds the license fees and the profits combined.
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It has been proven time and time again that fishers will not selectively fish when there is an opening for Chinook.
Maybe they are fed up with watching the many bars filled with flossers not discriminately fishing.
Well said.
The culture and habit of fisherman flossing in the fraser systems has been a major contributor to this whole debacle we find ourselves in today. Flossing/bottom bouncing/whatever you want to call it has been an extremely popular method of fishing in the LM, and only in the last few years has the ethical nature of this style of fishing been seriously questioned.
If people keep teaching their kids "this is the only way to catch salmon", then we will continue to have this conflict between recreational fisherman and the DFO in regards to chinook and sockeye runs.
Fishing lobby groups can say that they only selective fish (ie, bar fish), but until we start to make flossing a taboo in the fishing community, nothing will change. It would also help if fly shops and fishing stores STOP selling bottom bouncing rigs to novices and experienced anglers alike.
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Simply notice there is a $1000 fine for flossing, I doubt if there would be any.
Well Said! You "Get it".
It's nothing "PERSONAL" -> it's about the DFO's MANDATE, MANAGEMENT and POLICY IMPLEMENTATION!
-They have "Regulated" the industry in favour of the COMMERCIAL since day one.
-They literally Avoid any issues with FN. (yes there is history, treaty's etc.) It deserves some scrutiny
-They "play the Recreational Fishermen" over and over again.
Anyone who thinks the ENTIRE RIVER SYSTEMS closure(s) are due to "some people standing out and using bouncing betties" - really needs to RETHINK this.
Are you kidding me? So.. if this was true (Which i do not believe because it's so preposterous) then why do they not simply ENFORCE the regulations to the FEW who need it?
It's a Shame we live in a Society that now so easily "Accepts" having entire access rights removed for these type of silly excuses.
Just my opinion
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It would also help if fly shops and fishing stores STOP selling bottom bouncing rigs to novices and experienced anglers alike.
fly shops sell bottom bouncing rigs? What are you smoking? ;D
DFO is the only government department to make ordinary Canadians realize that they are the 2nd or 3rd class citizens
this is both nonsense and ignorance. DFO follows constitutional requirements and government policy.
Suggestion: if you don't like the way sport fishing is administered due to National Laws - sell your tackle & take up another hobby.
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fly shops sell bottom bouncing rigs? What are you smoking? ;D
this is both nonsense and ignorance. DFO follows constitutional requirements and government policy.
Suggestion: if you don't like the way sport fishing is administered due to National Laws - sell your tackle & take up another hobby.
LOL, you know what I mean :p
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The DFO is staffed by many passionate, talented, and hard-working people. Most are doing the best they can, while balancing competing demands from politicians, environmental legislation, the media, rec anglers, FN anglers, and commercial anglers.
I'm not bothered by people trashing DFO's policies but it irks me when I see posts RANTING and RaVING in CAPITAL LETTERS and bright COLOURS, insulting people who, for the most part, are doing their job to the best of their ability. Heck, some of those DFO people may even agree with some of your gripes but their hands are tied, for one reason or another. The snark is real but not constructive.
(I'm not associated with DFO in any way... it just irks me when an entire professional field, filled with people we've never met, is insulted because someone needs to have a tantrum ::) )
Unfortunatley, in my my opinion the DFO WAS staffed by many many passionate and talented people. Men and and women who took a stand, did what they knew to be right often putting their entire careers on the line. But time has moved on... many have retired, others have been let go, and some others have been replaced by more modern personell. Now that is not to say that these people are not passionate, but if one compares the response to recent attempted cuts (purges) to the one attempted in the 1990s you there is a stark contrast.
That being said, I will give credit where it is due. The modern DFO has much more knowledge and expertise than their predecessors. But knowing what has to be done does nothing unless something is actually done. They can hide behind the constitution and Charter all they want. But the law clearly states that conservation trumps any ones rights. We must call them out on their hypocracy. Of the salmon run is strong enough for non selective net fishery it is certainly strong enough for a selective sport fishery!
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How difficult for DFO open fraser chinook salmon for bar fishing only, Or make BB legal for sockeye only?
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How difficult for DFO open fraser chinook salmon for bar fishing only, Or make BB legal for sockeye only?
Probably not that easy as there is no definition currently in the regs of what defines 'bar fishing' nor 'bottom bouncing'.
They either dont seem to have much interest in doing so, or it's extremely hard to change the regs, otherwise they would have instituted such things long ago to have at least some granularity in managing the various fisheries, rather than "requesting" that recreational sector use "selective fishing methods" which seems nearly completely useless.
That's like removing all speed limits then requesting people keep their speed down, or risk all cars getting banned. It makes no sense.
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I appreciate your comments about other alternatives.
Many people have just learned to "Live with these crazy decisions and have found other locations". I choose to call them (DFO) out on these Biased and Improper Regulatory choices.
this is just your opinion. IMO it's not informed or without bias itself.
To some extent some of the actors behind the attempt to open the river to 'bar fishing' can only blame themselves. They actually promoted and developed the sockeye floss fishery. They also resisted selective fisheries and tackle restrictions because such would be 'biased' against those who choice was to fish bait etc. So FOC/DFO decided not to enact regulations that allow one sort of tackle or method and not another.
FWIW I am quite alright with a bar fishing only reg to allow catching chinook but avoid sockeye, as long as we can see more fly angling only water.
Ever ask yourself why BC is only Province anglers have to buy a license to angle in tidal waters? It is because BC Anglers lobbied for it.
BTW I don't think chinook runs to this point have been sufficient to support any sort of fishery including a catch and release fishery. Low water and high temperatures add to the problem For the most part only the late summer run has been sufficient for some years. Neither has there been a floss fishery before early to mid August so the problems with the spring and early summer runs are likely caused by factors other than the floss fishery, though some blame that. More than likely it is environmental factors related to water levels and temperatures in their natal streams.
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Rebecca Reid
Regional Director General
DFO Pacific Region
Rebecca the B.C. Federation of Drift Fishers adds its voce to the many groups and individuals demanding that the Fraser River be opened to recreational chinook fishing. Considering the significant First Nations openings that have occurred, it's obvious the conservation concerns have abated which should allow an opening for our sector. Past creel census has demonstrated our impact on chinook stocks is not significant and our selective bar fishery has zero impact on sockeye stocks.
We have demonstrated patience and supported concerns for depleted sockeye stocks. The BCFDF in coordination with other groups has actively tried to work with your staff in promoting selective fishing and has suggested that spot closures be used as a last resort in areas where selective fishing is not practiced. Earlier this year we requested a demonstration fishery that would further prove the selectivity of bar fishing for chinook. Unfortunately despite our offers to fund and organize the fishery our request was declined. To say were are disappointed with the cooperation of DFO Fraser River staff would be an understatement. Considering written support from the Minister promoting working relationships between the recreational community and Fraser River staff the continual denial of our requests is most disturbing.
The Fraser River recreational salmon fishery salmon is a tremendous economic driver for the communities bordering the Fraser River. It is also a priceless heritage that must be saved for future generations. The community has shown considerable restraint in support of conservation concerns but its become extremely difficult to ask anglers to not fish while other sectors have been fishing for several weeks. We are asking that you immediately initiate the actions required to get our fishery open.
Thank you for your immediate consideration to this request.
B.C. Federation of Drift Fishers
Rod Clapton, President
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This just illustrates the fact that politicians only understand votes. Perhaps the various groups should organize a public protest/demonstration and invite the media to address the unfair treatment of the recreational sector by DFO and politicians. The last resort is of course civil disobedience which had been proposed in prior seasons in light of such ridiculous unfair treatment of the recreational sector. DFO and the head honchos won't do anything unless this unfair treatment becomes news worthy and a public protest will get the media's attention. Organize it and invite all fishermen to go protest it publicly. That should change some hearts for that incompetent and biased institution.
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Well said.
The culture and habit of fisherman flossing in the fraser systems has been a major contributor to this whole debacle we find ourselves in today. Flossing/bottom bouncing/whatever you want to call it has been an extremely popular method of fishing in the LM, and only in the last few years has the ethical nature of this style of fishing been seriously questioned.
If people keep teaching their kids "this is the only way to catch salmon", then we will continue to have this conflict between recreational fisherman and the DFO in regards to chinook and sockeye runs.
Fishing lobby groups can say that they only selective fish (ie, bar fish), but until we start to make flossing a taboo in the fishing community, nothing will change. It would also help if fly shops and fishing stores STOP selling bottom bouncing rigs to novices and experienced anglers alike.
Sure, that's it - keep telling yourself that the restriction is due to bottom bouncing. Wrong - get over it. There is no salmon left - that's why there is no open season for Recreation fishing.
Multiple reasons for the decline in salmon stocks but it's definitely not due to bottom bouncing, although it really is a convenient excuse isn't it?
I've heard that a certain, historically controversial Native band is has been quite diligent in abiding to the large mesh and Sockeye restrictions. While this Band's Elders are trying to educate the their fisherman and do their best to comply, I really have to show some support and applaud their efforts. The Elders know they have challenges with a few non-compliant fishermen but what I've heard is that this is a very small population. The Natives know the the salmon are in big trouble and so are they, without the salmon.
Yes - it's too bad we can't bar fish for jack Spring, but that's sort of a minor inconvenience in respect to the bigger problem here - isn't it? Think about all the resources needed to manage and enforce such as small target of salmon - maybe a couple hundred jack springs that might be caught by bar fishermen over a small season that we could have left for these jacks. Yes it's a shame that such economic opportunities are lost - I feel for everyone affected by this but it is what it is. There is not enough salmon coming this year.
I don't care how you try spin a justification to allow a Recreation salmon opening this year - there is not enough salmon this year. If next year's numbers and conditions don't provide us a Rec fishing opportunity, I fear it's all over. I honestly believe that it's been over for a couple years now. I'm sad that I was able to witness this collapse.
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Here are some random thoughts:
So they are closing the recreational, but do they also reduce commercial quotas?
Looking at the store shelves I think half of that fish goes to waste at these prices.
I don't see sushi restaurants go belly up to fish scarcity.
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From Rod C.
Note below that sockeye encountered in the on going chinook fisheries are now classified as: "Low abundance exploitation rate" New terminology to suit the situation?. Considering we can fish selectively with zero exploitation rate why are we not on the water?
From: opscentre@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:32:15 PM
Subject: FN0817-Salmon - Fraser River Sockeye and Pink Update - Areas 11 to 29 - August 15, 2017
Category(s):
ABORIGINAL - General Information,
COMMERCIAL - Salmon: Gill Net,
COMMERCIAL - Salmon: Seine,
COMMERCIAL - Salmon: Troll,
RECREATIONAL - Salmon
Fishery Notice - Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Subject: FN0817-Salmon - Fraser River Sockeye and Pink Update - Areas 11 to 29 - August 15, 2017
The Fraser River Panel met on Tuesday, August 15 to receive an update on the
migration of the Fraser sockeye and pink runs to date and review the status of
migration conditions in the Fraser River watershed.
In-river gill net test catches have fluctuated in recent days but are still
much lower than expected.
Purse seine test catches of sockeye in Areas 12 continue to fluctuate at
moderate levels with the largest catch of the year occurring yesterday, August
14. In Area 20 catches continue to fluctuate at low levels. The purse seine
test catches in the two approach areas has resulted in a slight decrease in the
projected sockeye diversion rate through Johnstone Strait to 74% compared to
the pre-season forecast of 51%.
The most recent DNA samples taken in the marine purse seine test fisheries show
sockeye stock compositions in Area 20 of approximately 3% Early Summer, 85%
Summer and 12% Late run stocks. In Area 12, the purse seine stock composition
was 5% Early Summer, 87% Summer and 8% Late run stocks. The decrease in
proportion of Early Summer run stocks combined with the increase in the
proportion of Late run stocks is suggesting that the total return of Fraser
sockeye may have normal run timing for this cycle. The most recent in-river
stock identification samples from the Whonnock test fishery are showing stock
proportions of 6% Early Summer, 83% Summer and 11% Late run stocks.
Daily Mission hydroacoustics escapement estimates have decreased in recent days
ranging between 30,700 and 48,700. The total estimated sockeye escapement as of
August 14 is 549,100. Hell’s Gate observations have continued to increase in
recent days.
During the call today, the Fraser Panel made no additional changes to the run
size for Early Stuart, Early Summer or Summer run sockeye. At the current run
size for Early Summer and Summer run sockeye, there is no TAC available and as
such only fisheries with minimal impact on sockeye are being considered at this
time. The estimated escapement past Mission of Early Stuart, Early Summer,
Summer and Late run sockeye as of August 14 is 46,400, 100,000 and 382,600 and
20,100 fish, respectively.
On August 14, the Fraser River water discharge at Hope was 2,571 cubic metres
per second, which is approximately 26% lower than average for this date. The
water temperature of the Fraser River at Qualark Creek on August 14 increased
to 19.7° Celsius which is 1.6° Celsius higher than average for this date. The
forecast is for water temperatures to decrease to 18.9° Celsius by August 20 as
cooler air temperatures combined with precipitation is forecast in the coming
days. Due to the very low discharge levels, water temperatures are highly
influenced by air temperatures.
For pre-season planning purposes the Fraser Panel had adopted management
adjustments for Early Summer, Summer and Late run sockeye that reflect the
forecast water temperature and discharge conditions based on the May and June
information for Early Summer and Summer run sockeye, and anticipated river
entry dates for Late run fish. Due to the very poor return of Early Summer and
Summer run stocks they are now being managed based on a Low Abundance
Exploitation Rate (LAER) limit and as such there will be no modifications to
the in-season management adjustments for this group. Management adjustments are
additional fish that are set aside from identified harvest levels and allowed
to migrate upstream in an attempt to assist in achievement of identified
spawner objectives for the different run timing groups. No in-season changes to
the management adjustment are expected for Early Stuart, Early Summer, Summer
and Late run groups in 2017.
At this time, it continues to be too early to assess the return of Fraser pink
salmon. Recent test fishery catches in the marine approach areas have shown
increasing abundances of pink salmon primarily in the Johnstone Strait area.
The most recent stock identification samples analyzed for Areas 12 and 20 purse
seine test fisheries indicate Fraser origin pink salmon comprise 30% and 44%,
respectively. Based on the most recent purse seine test catches the estimated
diversion rate through Johnstone Strait for Fraser pink salmon is estimated to
be 80% compared to the historical median of 50%. Run size and timing updates
for Fraser pinks will likely begin in mid to late August.
First Nations food, social and ceremonial sockeye fisheries were restricted by
a 4 week window closure protecting Early Stuart and the earliest timed Early
Summer run stocks with limited fishing opportunities in-river to date directed
at Chinook salmon. Sockeye encountered in these fisheries are accounted for as
part of the Low Abundance Exploitation Rate.
Food, social and ceremonial fishers in marine approach areas as well as the
Fraser River are requested to check for the opening times and any restrictions
in their local area.
The next in-season meeting of the Fraser River Panel is scheduled to occur on
Friday, August 18, 2017.
FOR MORE INFORMATION:
Jennifer Nener 604-666-0789
Fisheries and Oceans Canada Operations Center - FN0817
Sent August 15, 2017 at 14:29
Visit us on the Web at http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
If you would like to unsubscribe, please submit your request at: http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=manage_subscription
If you have any questions, please contact us via e-mail to: OpsCentre@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
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Rebecca Reid
Regional Director General
DFO Pacific Region
Dear Rebecca Reid,
We, the sports fishing and guiding community dependant on salmon openings are amazed, that DFO still is not willing to recognize that we are able to fish selective for Chinook salmon, without harming any other salmon species, contrary to other user groups.
Fraser River Lodge employs 42 staff. Many of our livelihoods depend on this selective fishery. This year, we have already lost a good part of the typical selective salmon fishing opportunities that we have had fished for over the past decades. I find it disturbing that DFO simply ignores the fact that our bar fishery has ZERO impact on sockeye stocks and at the same time turns an annual blind eye on other user groups.
DFO does not seem to care about job losses on our side. No accountability on DFO`s side, since your pay checks come from the Federal Government and your jobs seem to be safe – unlike ours and our employees.
We request an immediate chinook opening with selective fishing methods in order to salvage our and many other businesses in the guiding industry.
Thank you for your consideration.
Frank Staiger - Owner and Professional Guide
Fraser River Lodge
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...perhaps it's time to do away with guided fishing in the Lower Fraser watershed. It's not like it's a wilderness fishery. Knowledge and advice can be had from tackle shops and other anglers on the river. Some of the guides often do not fish using ethical methods or good etiquette either.
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ive said this before many times , DFO is not concerned in the least with sportsfishings' impact on stocks, we are just a pawn in a game of kings and queens(expendable). The issue with us is that if we ever get an opening then first nations points at us on the river and immediately sends all their fleet out as that tells them " no conservation concern" . It sucks but faced with first nations rights we're screwed , only way we will be on that river again is when the numbers can handle native onslaught and the subsequent "salmon for sale signs" that pop up all over the fraser valley
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Job losses? Sounds greedy.. low stocks returning could mean the end of the salmon and some people are concerned with rec openings so guides/shops can make money off these endangered fish? Sure commercial and fn get too.. its arguing over possibly the last of these fish in history at this point. And you dont really believe people wont bottom bounce if opened do you? Most people seem to give zero friggs about the fish. Money money money. It sucks they may lose their jobs but they can find another career.
I also have never really bought into the Job loss argument for the rec sector. Since rec fishing is a hobby and people tend these days to spend to their limit. It's more of a job shuffle to different hobbies then an overall loss to our GDP.
The only loss I can see to GDP is Americans not coming over the border to fish our waters as that is an actual gain to our economy. No Commercial Fishing also is a loss to our economy as fish get shipped out of country.
I guess you could argue that the Rec guys are going to go to another country to fish but I think that's a bit of a stretch.
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DFO has very little control over what happens with the Fishery on the Fraser River. The decision is made by PSC and specifically the Chinook Technical Committee and for Sockeye and Pinks the Fraser River Technical Committee. http://www.psc.org/membership-lists/ (http://www.psc.org/membership-lists/)
This dates back to along time ago when a big slide happened on the Fraser river and the US gave canada a whole bunch of money to fix it in exchange to fishing rights. I believe they also gave money to build the fish ladders though hell gate. It seems as tho we have to pay for this now until the end of time.
Maybe some one older can refresh my history on this one? https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-treaties/bevans/b-ca-ust000006-0364.pdf (https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-treaties/bevans/b-ca-ust000006-0364.pdf) It took Lester B. Pearson and the Secretary of State to get this done. Great read
The the Chinook Technical Committee Though closed down the SEAK fishery for the fist time so that is a great move to protect Fraser river and Columbia fish. Alaska Fish and game did not have a choice and protested the closher. http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/EONR/index.cfm?ADFG=region.NR&Year=2017&NRID=2486 (http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/EONR/index.cfm?ADFG=region.NR&Year=2017&NRID=2486)
My dads first job as a Fishery Officer for DFO in the early 1980 was arranging a Canadian commercial fishery in the Yukon aimed at catching every single Alaska fish they could. These fish wars that accrued between DFO and Alaska Fish and Game resulted in the PSC being formed. http://www.psc.org/about-us/ (http://www.psc.org/about-us/)
The problem with fish management has always been the lack of science to back up decision making.
I could go on but I think I have ranted enough about this today
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Another letter to keep the conversations going.
I am writing to express my displeasure with the manner in which DFO is currently managing the recreational fishery on the Fraser river.
At the local Sport Fishing Advisory committee and at the SFAB we have been advocating for a rule change to Bar fishing when sockeye stocks of concern are in the river as we are absolutely confident that there would be virtually zero bycatch of sockeye and a significantly lower catch of Chinooks while providing an opportunity to fish . DFO has only placed road blocks up whenever we attempt to recommend regulation that would allow us allow us to fish selectively when necessary.
Given the example provided by decisions made affecting sport fishing on the Skeena (See link and quote below)and the quoted DFO manager stating that it was closed not for conservation concerns but to avoid conflict. I find that reprehensible. Look at the example of The peacekeepers (see link below) on the Fraser a cooperative group of first nations and recreational anglers working together to resolve issues. Even with that in place we still can,t fish.
The potential conflict is only because DFO fails to take responsibility to manage finding it easier to remove one group from the river.
This is not about First Nations rights , we recognize aboriginal rights but we do not believe the intent was for exclusivity. First Nations and there advocates are the same as us trying to protect what they believe is theirs.DFO has the difficult task of managing the resource in the interest of all Canadians where there are overlapping demands however it often seems the recreational fishing community are treated like a poor cousin when decisions are being made.
Quite frankly when there is no conservation concern we should be fishing and if necessary, selectively. . The fact that DFO on the Skeena system and possibly on the Fraser system chooses to allow one user group to fish and not the other without a conservation concern demonstrates to me the lack of will to effectively manage coincidental fisheries, First nations and recreational opportunities.
I recognize that the issue is complicated with the issues within the fisheries ranging from, developing an allowable catch limit and allocating it, habitat degradation, hatchery closures due to budget cutbacks, lack of predator management, unregulated fishing, over fishing in international waters and a host of others. You would think that DFO would be working to bring all groups together to help address and understand these issues
Recreational anglers donate thousands of hours on conservation projects and care deeply about the fish and the habitat but are often left out in the cold.
We truly do not want to be arguing over which group gets to kill the last salmon what we want is to be part of the solution to stock rebuilding and to share appropriately in allowable harvest.
Gerry Dewar
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I also have never really bought into the Job loss argument for the rec sector. Since rec fishing is a hobby and people tend these days to spend to their limit. It's more of a job shuffle to different hobbies then an overall loss to our GDP.
The only loss I can see to GDP is Americans not coming over the border to fish our waters as that is an actual gain to our economy. No Commercial Fishing also is a loss to our economy as fish get shipped out of country.
I guess you could argue that the Rec guys are going to go to another country to fish but I think that's a bit of a stretch.
FWIW, have a look at this study done by DFO about the Economics of the Rec and Commercial Sectors for Salmon allocation.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/193109.pdf
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FWIW, have a look at this study done by DFO about the Economics of the Rec and Commercial Sectors for Salmon allocation.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/193109.pdf
IS this why the ocean is open to Rec fishing and the rivers are close? The study seems to focus on the value of the ocean rec fishery
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IS this why the ocean is open to Rec fishing and the rivers are close? The study seems to focus on the value of the ocean rec fishery
Perhaps. I think they primarily focus on lodges as the main economic source since many of the customers are from South of the Border. I guess the argument is that a local river angler spending money on gas, lunch, licenses, and fishing gear bring no net economic benefit to the country or province because he/she would have spent the money on something else if they weren't fishing.
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Perhaps. I think they primarily focus on lodges as the main economic source since many of the customers are from South of the Border. I guess the argument is that a local river angler spending money on gas, lunch, licenses, and fishing gear bring no net economic benefit to the country or province because he/she would have spent the money on something else if they weren't fishing.
I disagree. Fishing and Hunting are my hobbies. If I can't fish the rivers here I will go some where I can. Be surprised at today's gas prices how few trips from Delta to Chilliwack or Squamish it takes to equate to a flight out. Say it costs me half a tank to drive my truck to Chilliwack, hit a few holes, and come back. That is about $70. Find a flight sale, and after not fishing every weekend in June, July, and August I can now fly to Panama for an all inclusive. They have some great fishing down there for dirt cheap. Yes Americans come here, but we also go other places.
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Because I had time!
(http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/index.php?media/chinook-catch.464/full)
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DFO has very little control over what happens with the Fishery on the Fraser River. The decision is made by PSC and specifically the Chinook Technical Committee and for Sockeye and Pinks the Fraser River Technical Committee. http://www.psc.org/membership-lists/ (http://www.psc.org/membership-lists/)
This dates back to along time ago when a big slide happened on the Fraser river and the US gave canada a whole bunch of money to fix it in exchange to fishing rights. I believe they also gave money to build the fish ladders though hell gate. It seems as tho we have to pay for this now until the end of time.
Maybe some one older can refresh my history on this one? https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-treaties/bevans/b-ca-ust000006-0364.pdf (https://www.loc.gov/law/help/us-treaties/bevans/b-ca-ust000006-0364.pdf) It took Lester B. Pearson and the Secretary of State to get this done. Great read
The the Chinook Technical Committee Though closed down the SEAK fishery for the fist time so that is a great move to protect Fraser river and Columbia fish. Alaska Fish and game did not have a choice and protested the closher. http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/EONR/index.cfm?ADFG=region.NR&Year=2017&NRID=2486 (http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/EONR/index.cfm?ADFG=region.NR&Year=2017&NRID=2486)
My dads first job as a Fishery Officer for DFO in the early 1980 was arranging a Canadian commercial fishery in the Yukon aimed at catching every single Alaska fish they could. These fish wars that accrued between DFO and Alaska Fish and Game resulted in the PSC being formed. http://www.psc.org/about-us/ (http://www.psc.org/about-us/)
The problem with fish management has always been the lack of science to back up decision making.
I could go on but I think I have ranted enough about this today
One point/counterpoint is that at least in the 80s and a little after, there was a Sockeye Commission that regulated everything sockeye related, at least commercially in the Sound and I believe also in the river. There was no fishing until escapement levels had been reached and then the overage that could be caught were split 50/50 between WA and BC. They would meet I think every day during the season, look at escapements, and establish fishing times for each group. The WA side was split 50/50 between Native and Non-Native as well but those times were all scheduled through the commission. If there was not proper escapement or some group caught too many fish, it got shut down hard. My understanding is this commission no longer exists and there is little or no commercial fishing in WA on Fraser stock, planned at least. I would imagine there is a lot less cooperation to reduce by-catch with the new set up.
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From FOC in answers to a number of letters written, some of what I posted above.
Dear Mr. Clapton:
Thank you for your August 9, 2017, correspondence to Rebecca Reid, Regional Director General, regarding Fraser River recreational chinook fisheries and your follow-up messages of August 15. I have been asked to respond on her behalf.
Fisheries and Ocean Canada continues to be guided by the Allocation Policy for Pacific Salmon, which establishes clear priorities for fisheries management. The Policy confirms that the primary objective in fisheries management is the conservation of Pacific salmon stocks, followed by government obligations to provide harvest opportunities for First Nations food, social and ceremonial (FSC) requirements and treaty obligations.
Decisions for fisheries management actions for Fraser chinook are strongly tied to Fraser sockeye in-season information. At this time, the very low abundance of Fraser sockeye returns continues to be a key constraint in fisheries directed on chinook, and the overall number of chinook salmon returning to the Fraser River also appears to be below expectations to date.
Continuation of the closure of Fraser River recreational fisheries is a result of this year’s extremely poor in-season returns of Fraser sockeye and the extremely limited sockeye impacts available to date, and the need to provide for priority access to chinook for First Nations FSC harvest opportunities. First Nation fishing opportunities this season have been and continue to be severely constrained, and their harvest of both chinook and sockeye are well below harvest targets.
We appreciate that some anglers choose to fish selectively; however, where regulations are not in place, DFO Conservation and Protection (C&P) staff are unable to take enforcement action, and C&P must manage staff resources to ensure monitoring and enforcement of existing regulations is prioritized.
I also advise that there have been ongoing discussions between DFO and members of the
Sport Fishing Advisory Board (SFAB) Chinook/Coho Working Group to provide weekly updates on in-season management status and provide an opportunity for continued dialogue.
The Department will continue to review and monitor in-season information on a regular basis to inform future recreational fisheries management decisions. Further information on possible recreational fishery opportunities will be included in weekly Fraser River Panel (FRP) updates.
With respect to the question on recreational data for 2015 and 2016 in your most recent correspondence, I will follow up via a separate letter as it will take some time for follow-up.
We acknowledge the very challenging circumstances this year and appreciate your efforts to help communicate our current situation with the recreational community.
Yours sincerely,
Jennifer Nener
Director, Salmon Management and Client Service
Pacific Region
cc: Rebecca Reid
Angela Bate
On behalf of Jennifer Nener
Charis Hon
Administrative Officer
Salmon Management & Client Services
Fisheries & Oceans Canada
Phone: 604 666 9523
Fax: 604 666 5855
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We appreciate that some anglers choose to fish selectively; however, where regulations are not in place, DFO Conservation and Protection (C&P) staff are unable to take enforcement action, and C&P must manage staff resources to ensure monitoring and enforcement of existing regulations is prioritized.
Bottom bouncers and flossing have creating such damage to the Recreation fishing group. This had been a complaint from DFO for along time without the ability in the ACT to specific leader lengths they can't enforce selective fishing methods.
In order to change the Act the current Liberal government would need to modify it. Really if you want things to change these letters would be better of sent to your MP begging them to modify the BC Sports Fishing act So that DFO can specify leader lengths. My dad took this to Ottawa when he was in charge of the fraser valley about this and they did nothing.
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If it could be changed, what would a good leader length restriction be? If it was say 18", couldn't people still bottom bounce with pencil lead and an 18" leader? It would talk longer but still work?
Success rate goes way down with 18 inches. Guys are casting 17 feet leader length in order to get a good chance on the Fraser.
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Still discussing about leader length lol... If only you understand why the river really is closed.
There are lots of excellent fisheries around this province beside the Fraser to enjoy in the summer. My suggestion to all is to take advantage of those.
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I understand that, which is why I asked, so they could still bounce with a short leader then? Success rate low or not people would be out there bouncing still if 18 inches could still work. Sounds to me like there would have to somehow be a bar fishing only regulation implemented, not just leader restriction.
Yeah but the rate of incidental catch of sockeye would most likely be small enough that the PSC would be okay with it. You're right they may need to add additional things to the act to be able to specify methods.
bottom line is that it is not in there now and since the Act needs to be modified in order to do that. The Federal government would have to table the legislation.
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Still discussing about leader length lol... If only you understand why the river really is closed.
There are lots of excellent fisheries around this province beside the Fraser to enjoy in the summer. My suggestion to all is to take advantage of those.
Yeah we all know why it's closed because the sockeye and chinook returns are horrible and the NATIVES need their take. You don't want to come out and say it because there does not need more animosity towards them from the rec guys. We don't need rec guys out there throwing bouncing betties at them while they attempt net their take with their non selective gillnets.
And its BS about the mesh size too any good native knows if you hang a tight chinook net you will intercept all the sockeye.
I agree and I prefer it stays closed if it protects some fish (Low Chinook numbers). Tons of other fishing to do!
And yet I can fish off the mouth of the fraser for Pinks and Chinook and hatch coho! it's not about protecting the Chinook
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There are lots of excellent fisheries around this province beside the Fraser to enjoy in the summer. My suggestion to all is to take advantage of those.
x2
This summer, I've been to the Kamloops area twice and hit some massive trough, went up island and tagged some beauty cutties, hit Alouette for kokanee and bulls, the local chuck etc.
Expand your horizons...
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I understand that, which is why I asked, so they could still bounce with a short leader then? Success rate low or not people would be out there bouncing still if 18 inches could still work. Sounds to me like there would have to somehow be a bar fishing only regulation implemented, not just leader restriction.
Clearly you never fished slack waters around Gill Rd. 18" leader is just fine just get that down with 1-1.5" pencil lead or small betty 4-5' under a foam float. Cast to the edge of the current, drag it in a foot or so and let it drift through the school. Sockeye come in close. Green wool and watermelon corkie makes you feel like you're actually luring them to bite - you're not - it's just another method for sockeye, picks or chum. Odds go way down for Springs but if the fish are there you can get them.
Leader length doesn't matter - there is no more salmon - no more open seasons - no use fighting about flossing anymore.
I haven't figured out how to floss Mill Lake yet - too many weeds in the way.
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For what it's worth, here's my limit of Skagit River (US) sockeye I caught in July in about an hour, BAR FISHING with a spin-n-glo and shrimp:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ODN-EPzxQjm5O5YXm9LwG5t_buJ4Zk58BJpfoRelSS1ljXNwrd0J0tSToec2SLpkGB9b8v-sLzQtdkgorOwogbLttW43arO_CjkRx_s83aTycGSY-AyEumwxjkztcNu0TkXlz-MVYmgob4jisQRI-jmIedSF09AujVrUgWHMqFtA7DRh-JOHfDLhMuW4PgK0Fq16pwY5Gn7t4205eg15XXpFq5nwl7uJf-SS0V_epU8TXSx5i8X4XdUejcPclibrb2Jdes2qAj9FF7nAR4IYppwfCzJl2BmTnObzqwIdSWnZbl9eddsF2cBvcrxWn3mp8xKuLMpUeGRS5f-yq9ztE_bGjMZX6OJ9XX8VUX8xtN5l8vGnzLlQvOCbqvyUOeoNvpD8DiuXubJla1fU0eqErVS1mdiQYhER_5DAlBFGCzTjMcsLeQvAhzDJX_S9-UlbnFndxbMox3H6VeiZT7T4Y4ygESq0HdpnlAPcYw8mzWHkEVVMmugz3YD4PwPDYqm-EMlorhiIkJkTU6t9TSK1Evk5ji_K0AA5DVO_ib55Ubc2pbe9pIXw0Z2fHntYVswCPPxGRgH5Tqt7qgPQe2MQ4fCDlpIROAL4JjqdMWT9kus5Rnn4hULo=w1182-h887-no?.jpg)
Even bar fishing isn't zero impact on sockeye, and I THINK the early season fish are especially susceptible, as they are so long from spawning that they feed more on their way to the spawning grounds. Also, I have seen people flossing with jigs that sit stationary on the river bottom - one element of bar fishing, yet clearly not ethical fishing. There is no easy way to effectively restrict technique that there will be no impact on the low sockeye stocks (or Thompson steelhead and interior coho).
Back in the early 1990s when the sockeye sport fishery first opened on the Fraser, everyone was bottom bouncing with a 2-3 ft leader, just like they had done for pinks for years. I remember being at Island 22 and learning from the old timers how to fish with wool and how to feel the "bite". I don't know if people realized they were flossing, but slowly people figured it out. I didn't actually hear anyone explain what flossing was until at least my 4th sockeye season, when guys started going to 6 foot leaders. Even then, there were times that 3 feet was better, and you only needed to cast out with pencil lead.
I'm amazed that the sport fishery for wild Fraser chinook has lasted this long. In Washington, you generally need to release all unclipped chinook unless you are at a terminal fishery where only an introduced stock is present. Chinook were never the high-volume runs that sockeye and pinks can be, and they are therefore much more susceptible to over-fishing. Add to that the much longer life-cycle, and it makes the runs much harder to bring back.
I'll be curious to see what effect the closure of the SE Alaska chinook fishery has on Fraser returns this fall. I think we should all be grateful that the US bought Alaska from Russia, otherwise they would have fished these stocks to extinction long ago.
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I still think it's worthwhile for the RECREATIONAL FISHERY to fight for the final scraps.
Concede the remaining pieces to Commercial & FN?
-No way! there's still some fish out there... Let's go to the bitter end making them ours.
Just my thoughts
Fair enough. If there isn't a fight this year, there won't be any chance of fishing next year even good numbers of salmon are present.
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I still think it's worthwhile for the RECREATIONAL FISHERY to fight for the final scraps.
Concede the remaining pieces to Commercial & FN?
Anyone who thinks the final scraps are going to anyone other than the natives is living in a pipe dream.
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For what it's worth, here's my limit of Skagit River (US) sockeye I caught in July in about an hour, BAR FISHING with a spin-n-glo and shrimp:
Back in the early 1990s when the sockeye sport fishery first opened on the Fraser, everyone was bottom bouncing with a 2-3 ft leader, just like they had done for pinks for years.
Hi. There is no photo.
It's true that back then about 3 ft of leader was common. However like sockeye and chum for that matter pinks were not considered sportfish in non-tidal water. They were all re-classified and opened at the same time. Prior to that DFO conducted test fisheries with volunteers to see if those species could be caught without snagging them & they determined it was possible to do so.
Anyone who thinks the final scraps are going to anyone other than the natives is living in a pipe dream.
Blair the way the fishery is now constituted with 1st Nations access placed before everything else it is pretty much impossible to change. It's embedded in the constitution and in case law at the Supreme Court level. No other court in Canada, politician or official can change that without changing the constitution. Don't know how much you follow politics or your knowledge of recent history but it's all but impossible to change the constitution even for major issues such as senate reform.
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Well I have been here for 60.
Most people, including you, seem to have a compete lack of appreciation for what was taken away from 1st Nations, how many decades they took to get their loss addressed, the lack of attention of Government and the final criticism of the courts that the government and our society had egregiously acted in bad faith and now had to live with the court's ruling.
My father had a saying for the all the whining from some segments of the sport fishing community. "The world doesn't revolve around your a-hole!"
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Well said blair! Let's not divide people based on their heritage, sex, religion, etc.
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I think both of you need to know & learn more about the law. I realize this is hard as people who argue this way consistently, ignore the law. All the British Laws and agreements with Native people have been carried forward and are binding. While history isn't binding it's a powerful force in the present. You can't wish that away either. We had our chance to come to a more modern and agreeable arrangement but the government and the sport fishing public preferred the binding solution of going to the SOC. The ruling was much worse than anyone imagined though they had been warned about this at every level of legal review.
Case closed.
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Blair, please do yourself a favour and do some reading on 'Truth and Reconciliation'. I had never given it much thought before and had a similar attitude to yours.
Getting back to the state of our fisheries, instead lobbying DFO for the right to kill the last one, shouldn't you be asking how did we get here? How had a once plentiful resource been reduced to mere scraps that we must fight over?
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In fairness, I don't think most are saying that First Nations legal fishing rights do not take precedence over sport fishers. What most are saying, and the law agrees and has been tested in court numerous times, is that they do come second to conservation concerns. There are several sustainable fishing techniques that would adequately sustain a true FSC fishery (not a commercial though which this is on the verge of) that does not require indiscriminate fishing methods such a as "poorly" strung gill net. This combined with the DFO's repeated failures such as pushing the Commercial harvest of later Chum which has been scientifically proven to be one of the main reasons for collapse of the interior steelhead population, these constant iterations of the closure being for the sake of conservation are running thin and soon they will run out of excuses and fish!
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This combined with the DFO's repeated failures such as pushing the Commercial harvest of later Chum which has been scientifically proven to be one of the main reasons for collapse of the interior steelhead population, these constant iterations of the closure being for the sake of conservation are running thin and soon they will run out of excuses and fish!
I don't recall ever having seen any scientific research that says the Chum fishery is the main reason for the collapse... Lots of anecdotal evidence and surely it plays a role but I don't believe for a second that closing the chum fishery alone is the answer.
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Hi. There is no photo.
I think I fixed it now. I hate that we lost photobucket. Google photos is not easy to use in this instance.
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I don't recall ever having seen any scientific research that says the Chum fishery is the main reason for the collapse... Lots of anecdotal evidence and surely it plays a role but I don't believe for a second that closing the chum fishery alone is the answer.
The Chum fishery certainly played a big roll in the demise of Interior Steelhead but there are other factors too.
When the Oolichan is nearly wiped out like it is you know there are other reasons for fish stocks being wiped out.
Its a complicated thing and unfortunately they don't have a grasp on it very well.
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Oh come one the Indians ate all those eulichans! ;D
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More from the FRSA in today paper.
http://theprovince.com/opinion/letters/letters-fraser-river-anglers-deserve-to-be-allowed-to-fish
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http://fraseralliance.com/
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Today's Chilliwack Progress. http://www.theprogress.com/news/low-salmon-returns-in-the-fraser-river-mean-few-fishery-openings/
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They have tried selective openings before only to have the bars lined with people tossing bouncing bettys with 13 ft leaders.
If they gave another opening the same would happen again.
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They have tried selective openings before only to have the bars lined with people tossing bouncing bettys with 13 ft leaders.
If they gave another opening the same would happen again.
This had certainly not helped the situation, of course a few of us started discussing this topic many years ago, was a yearly topic on FWR and other forums. Saying that many groups have been trying to get FOC to bring in a 3 foot leader restriction or fixed rod only for many years now but FOC has resisted. Makes one think they just would like to see us off the river. I guess we have seen the best of it but I feel bad for younger anglers who do not get the enjoyment we old guys once had.
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This had certainly not helped the situation, of course a few of us started discussing this topic many years ago, was a yearly topic on FWR and other forums. Saying that many groups have been trying to get FOC to bring in a 3 foot leader restriction or fixed rod only for many years now but FOC has resisted. Makes one think they just would like to see us off the river. I guess we have seen the best of it but I feel bad for younger anglers who do not get the enjoyment we old guys once had.
Yep the letter sums it up quite clearly
"We appreciate that some anglers choose to fish selectively; however, where regulations are not in place, DFO Conservation and Protection (C&P) staff are unable to take enforcement action, and C&P must manage staff resources to ensure monitoring and enforcement of existing regulations is prioritized."
IT would probably take a fixed weight and leader restriction but who knows
Rieber has convinced me that the angling comunity would just do what ever it takes to floss. He seems to know every method know to man. Good example of why to keep it closed
I also get tired of old timers telling me to keep it close and about conservation. I can count on 2 hands the amount of salmon ive taken. Hard to take advice from the old timers who contributed in destroying the resource.
Rod says to go find other placed to fish, easy for him I suppose. I could rant on about everything but I am passed the anger phase this season and now just depressed. Glad me and my son went to hatchery even this spring, at least he got to experience the beauty of the resource in someway.
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They have tried selective openings before only to have the bars lined with people tossing bouncing bettys with 13 ft leaders.
To be fair there has never been a selective opening, firm words 'discouraging' non-selective techniques are basically useless. Management by suggestion doesnt really work.
It would be like asking people to not use roe without instituting a bait ban, or to ask people to catch and release yet leaving the retention limit at 4. Good luck with that.
Sure, no doubt some people would absolutely comply, and good on them, but others either wouldn't care or legitimately dont understand the rationale behind the request and will just continue on business as usual. I sure dont blame them either. Not everyone is a fishing expert, they probably think if something really was bad there would be some rule against it right?
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Same old banter though. Bottom line is as much as I don't practice or support this method of "fishing",Bouncing Bettie's didn't wipe out the Salmon. Nets did. Climate change did. Seals. Any or all of the above, Not a few lucky weekend warriors with their Crappy Tire rods and their limits of salmon.
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They have tried selective openings before only to have the bars lined with people tossing bouncing bettys with 13 ft leaders.
If they gave another opening the same would happen again.
Anyone who thinks we are not on the river because of our 'methods of fishing' is naïve.
The reason we are not on the river is because of politics (people in charge giving into pressure from a special interest group)...period...plain and simple...case closed.
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Anyone who thinks we are not on the river because of our 'methods of fishing' is naïve.
The reason we are not on the river is because of politics (people in charge giving into pressure from a special interest group)...period...plain and simple...case closed.
X2. DFO and its scientists are not dumb to know that the mortality rate from accident catch of the recreational sector is really nothing compared to the NETS from the other two user groups. There is simply no proof that any sector of the recreational fishing can hurt the stock as a bycatch. We are used as political pawn to get the other group(s) off the water (officially at least). So doesn't matter how you present it to DFO, it is falling on deaf ears.
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well perhaps that what we get for being flaming head racists most of the time...
on a lighter note - it looks like the FN in river fisheries wrap up on the 31st & none are scheduled for the week ending Sept 10th; which is a good sign for the possible opening of the river for the long weekend.
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well perhaps that what we get for being flaming head racists most of the time...
Yep, Don't need Sports Fishermen throwing bouncing betties, hooks and lures at them. Don't need sports fishermen doing "citizen patrols" up and down the river. Don't need sports fishermen fishing at night, Don't need them getting there grandmas and wife shipping there limits home all day. Don't need to hear about countless sports fishermen fishing with barbs hooks and kicking their salmon on the beach.
There is a PSC meeting today I am expecting to here good things coming out of it. Cross your fingers
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Commercial openings have all sorts of gear restricts from troll vs gill net to mesh size on nets, etc, etc. no reason it cant be done for rec anglers too.
I would love to see gear restrictions designed to limit flossing become a common part of all sports fisheries....not just the fraser in the summer.
my 2c.
Also need better definitions of hooking a fish. in Oregon and Washington when I looked at the regs ages ago there was verbiage like "entice a strike" vs "hook a fish" and INSIDE the mouth vs in the mouth.
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I still can not get it how you close river to protect chinook but at the same time hundreds Fraser fish taking from the salt ???
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Yep the letter sums it up quite clearly
"We appreciate that some anglers choose to fish selectively; however, where regulations are not in place, DFO Conservation and Protection (C&P) staff are unable to take enforcement action, and C&P must manage staff resources to ensure monitoring and enforcement of existing regulations is prioritized."
IT would probably take a fixed weight and leader restriction but who knows
Rieber has convinced me that the angling comunity would just do what ever it takes to floss. He seems to know every method know to man. Good example of why to keep it closed
I also get tired of old timers telling me to keep it close and about conservation. I can count on 2 hands the amount of salmon ive taken. Hard to take advice from the old timers who contributed in destroying the resource.
Rod says to go find other placed to fish, easy for him I suppose. I could rant on about everything but I am passed the anger phase this season and now just depressed. Glad me and my son went to hatchery even this spring, at least he got to experience the beauty of the resource in someway.
So ask yourself, "Why is there so much resistance to change the Regulations?" For years there's been the cry to limit leader lengths as a positive step to stop flossing - no changes yet and now DFO C&R says they can't take action. Of course you can't take action because flossing is not against the law. Until it's called out in the Regulations and there is an open season, there will be flossing. Some form of Flossing will "exist" anywhere there is moving water.
Nice you think calling me out personally helps you justify your opinion - good on you if that helps you sleep. Personally, I haven't had the luxury or pleasure of bottom bouncing for several years. I'm just not interested as there is no salmon left to bounce for. Plus I haven't had a river boat for years and I'm not going to the walk-in river bars anymore. I really enjoyed bottom bouncing and the whole crazy social aspect of that river bar game but there was a request to stop long leader bottom bouncing and I stopped. Heck, my drift gear is posted for sale - I'm not going to use it anymore in any capacity.
So, in my opinion, if there truly is a short coming of salmon, keep it closed this year and change the Regulations. Open it again whenever the numbers and conditions justify an opening - but not before the Reg's are changed and the Law is in place to stop the long leader business.
You can change all you can dream of in the Rivers, this is still a drop in the bucket when these Super Trawlers wipe out entire runs. Were there not two reported Super Trawlers that the Coast Guard escorted out of BC's salmon waters? Commercial overfishing relative to the actual seasonal fish stocks? When a fisherman hits the river to catch salmon, he's going to want to stay to catch his limit of 2 sockeye - does it really matter if he catches 2 sockeye by bottom bouncing or if he catches his limit of 2 sockeye by flyfishing? The end result is the same. I really don't care if someone chooses to bottom bounce or flyfish as long as both methods are deemed to be legal. I don't care if Natives are catching their sockeye with a net - as long as it's deemed to be legal. I don't care how Jimmy Pattison catches his fish - as long as it's legal.
None of this even matters if the salmon stocks are not managed correctly. The recreational salmon fisherman is so small in this entire mess yet you still try focus on the smallest factor and make the biggest noise about it. Give your head a shake and stop trying to punish or restrict the Recreational fishermen.
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well perhaps that what we get for being flaming head racists most of the time...
on a lighter note - it looks like the FN in river fisheries wrap up on the 31st & none are scheduled for the week ending Sept 10th; which is a good sign for the possible opening of the river for the long weekend.
It has been my experience that there has been racism on both sides. It is just that one side has the backing of the Federal Government and the other doesn't. The argument against sport fishing went out the window when the DFO changed from no sockeye by-catch allowed to sockeye by-catch is to be minimized but accepted. You can't get blood from a stone, and simply put there are no more salmon. The money that is spent on trying to enforce the B.S. rules would be better spent buying certain groups Alaskan Fish and closing the River entirely. A similar proposal of buying beef is already being discussed, and even encouraged by certain groups, following the wildfires in the Cariboo.
The simple truth is that the Fraser River Salmon stocks have been decimated. Sport Fishing had nothing to do with it, but it is the easiest target. Unfortunately, sport fishers are the primary groups trying to reverse the trend. Commercial operations will just move on. First Nations are, if it is possible, are even more divided than we are. There really is very little hope, and it is disappearing every day.
The only real question is, when all we have are memories of sport fishing the Fraser, and stocks are still declining who will the DFO blame then?
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It has been my experience that there has been racism on both sides. It is just that one side has the backing of the Federal Government and the other doesn't. The argument against sport fishing went out the window when the DFO changed from no sockeye by-catch allowed to sockeye by-catch is to be minimized but accepted. You can't get blood from a stone, and simply put there are no more salmon. The money that is spent on trying to enforce the B.S. rules would be better spent buying certain groups Alaskan Fish and closing the River entirely. A similar proposal of buying beef is already being discussed, and even encouraged by certain groups, following the wildfires in the Cariboo.
The simple truth is that the Fraser River Salmon stocks have been decimated. Sport Fishing had nothing to do with it, but it is the easiest target. Unfortunately, sport fishers are the primary groups trying to reverse the trend. Commercial operations will just move on. First Nations are, if it is possible, are even more divided than we are. There really is very little hope, and it is disappearing every day.
The only real question is, when all we have are memories of sport fishing the Fraser, and stocks are still declining who will the DFO blame then?
]
They'll still blame "us". ;)
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In the end, sports fishing is a large group of uncombined separate groups and individuals. Both commercial and FN are organized with both having loads of money at stake. Their organization and the effort they go in to getting their way is going to out weigh anything the sports fishing will be able to put together. Until the gov't grows a pair and does what it takes to put in real conservation measures, policing everything and not letting special interest groups act out just because they don't like the outcome, nothing is going to change. Not flossing rules, weight rules, leader length, or any other restriction to be put on sports fishing.
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Good luck
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/canadas-move-to-keep-fishing-chinooks-is-short-sighted/article36109935/ (https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/canadas-move-to-keep-fishing-chinooks-is-short-sighted/article36109935/)
"Moreover, three First Nations along the Fraser River are suing the Government of Canada for allowing sport and commercial fisheries to continue targeting at-risk Chinook populations returning to the Fraser, when First Nations' needs for food, social and ceremonial purposes are not being met as required under the Constitution and DFO's allocation policy. Both of these obligations recognize that ensuring First Nations' food objectives are the first priority after salmon conservation objectives are met. But being in-river fisheries, First Nations are last in line when the fish arrive."
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It has been my experience that there has been racism on both sides. It is just that one side has the backing of the Federal Government and the other doesn't. The argument against sport fishing went out the window when the DFO changed from no sockeye by-catch allowed to sockeye by-catch is to be minimized but accepted. You can't get blood from a stone, and simply put there are no more salmon. The money that is spent on trying to enforce the B.S. rules would be better spent buying certain groups Alaskan Fish and closing the River entirely. A similar proposal of buying beef is already being discussed, and even encouraged by certain groups, following the wildfires in the Cariboo.
The simple truth is that the Fraser River Salmon stocks have been decimated. Sport Fishing had nothing to do with it, but it is the easiest target. Unfortunately, sport fishers are the primary groups trying to reverse the trend. Commercial operations will just move on. First Nations are, if it is possible, are even more divided than we are. There really is very little hope, and it is disappearing every day.
The only real question is, when all we have are memories of sport fishing the Fraser, and stocks are still declining who will the DFO blame then?
Do you understand the concepts of systemic and institutionalized racism? These are what has marked all our social and governmental relations with FN people. Most other people in Canada who are not FN have not faced this ever in their lives. FNs have dealt with this for a century and a half.
I have lived and fished in this area for over 50 years. The ill will from the recreational anglers to FN has been there all that time. I can't remember a time when anglers I would just bump into on stream would treat me to a racist rant about native nets or gaffs and how FN rights had to be totally revoked. It didn't just turn up because sockeye were opened up as a recreational fishery - something the sport community lobbied for by the way.
It is ridiculous to suggest that the recreational community has no blame for the current state of Fraser salmon stocks or that other groups are not trying to do something to reverse the trend. For a start the strength of the Shushwap River chinook stocks which is what is mostly coming into the Fraser now is primarily due to active management by FN people who live in that river drainage.
The recreational sector are major consumers of salmon up and down the coast and not just in the river. While the total take isn't big the take for Fraser and other stocks is significant.
More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead. They have been dfalling like dominoes.
To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life. All of us bear that responsibility.
What's more recreational angling is a major source of CC to the extent it now focuses extended travel, destination angling, high powered water craft and high powered vehicles required to tow them.
Recreational anglers are very little the source of the solution more a good chunk of the problem.
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Do you understand the concepts of systemic and institutionalized racism? These are what has marked all our social and governmental relations with FN people. Most other people in Canada who are not FN have not faced this ever in their lives. FNs have dealt with this for a century and a half.
I have lived and fished in this area for over 50 years. The ill will from the recreational anglers to FN has been there all that time. I can't remember a time when anglers I would just bump into on stream would treat me to a racist rant about native nets or gaffs and how FN rights had to be totally revoked. It didn't just turn up because sockeye were opened up as a recreational fishery - something the sport community lobbied for by the way.
I think someone needs to explain to you what true racism is. However, I'm more interested in teaching you what 'discrimination' is.
Discriminating is treating someone one way but treating someone else another way because of their race, age, gender, etc, etc.
As long as there is discrimination, there will be racism. It seems to me in the decade or more that I've read your posts that you will never understand that.
A truly fair and just country is run well when citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer.
We are all Canadian citizens. The sooner we all live that way...the better.
When we are all treated equally and special interest groups fade away, you will see racism become much less than it is today.
It's true, there will always be a few born losers who will hate someone because of their color of skin, etc, etc....but those are the types of people who hate the whole world anyways.....just ignore them. However, when one demographic sees another demographic get extra special treatment because of political pressure to compensate for something that happened 24000 years ago, the race that goes without...is going to be upset....and that leads to a 'situational' type of racism.....meaning someone who isn't 'naturally' racist may show racial expressions because of the unfairness that is happening around them. It's human nature to react when you feel hurt or treated unfairly. Labeling that person a racist is just as bad as being racist.
It is ridiculous to suggest that the recreational community has no blame for the current state of Fraser salmon stocks or that other groups are not trying to do something to reverse the trend. For a start the strength of the Shushwap River chinook stocks which is what is mostly coming into the Fraser now is primarily due to active management by FN people who live in that river drainage.
The recreational sector are major consumers of salmon up and down the coast and not just in the river. While the total take isn't big the take for Fraser and other stocks is significant.
More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead. They have been dfalling like dominoes.
To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life. All of us bear that responsibility.
What's more recreational angling is a major source of CC to the extent it now focuses extended travel, destination angling, high powered water craft and high powered vehicles required to tow them.
Recreational anglers are very little the source of the solution more a good chunk of the problem.
Please don't ever be a science teacher or my lawyer. You don't know the first thing about science, and if you were a lawyer, you'd probably defend the wrong person. I have a hard time even believing you are a recreational fishermen. Stand up...grow a pair, and help stick up for us like most of us are doing here.
As for the Climate change....its true the fish are dying in the ocean...but science has not proven its because of climate change. What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast. Our oceans are on borrowed time...and salmon are NOT going to come out of it well....if at all.
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Robbie you need to talk to your barber about a flame retardant hair dressing.
I think someone needs to explain to you what true racism is.
A truly fair and just country is run well when citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer.
Please don't ever be a science teacher or my lawyer. You don't know the first thing about science, and if you were a lawyer, you'd probably defend the wrong person. I have a hard time even believing you are a recreational fishermen.
Well I am but it's not the only thing that drives my brain.
I don't stand up for racism.
What do you know about equality or justice other than squat? Ever read Plato's Republic or something like similar?
You also don't get it that most lawyers work for money.
A truly fair and just country is run well when citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer.
YEE HAH! Just like our wonderful country has offered FN peoples for 150 years not to mention Chinese, Asian Indians, Women and Gay people. The residential school system was a perfect example of truly fair and complete equality. Your sport fishing inconvenience is a trifle by comparison.
As for the Climate change....its true the fish are dying in the ocean...but science has not proven its because of climate change. What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast. Our oceans are on borrowed time...and salmon are NOT going to come out of it well....if at all.
As for telling me I know nothing about science ...you've just proven you know squat about science. Did I say science proves climate climate change is a fact? No because I have some understanding of how science works though though you have squat. However you seem to get it that our oceans may not be able to support salmon populations in the near future. Yet you get so excited over that fact FNs have too much control (for your liking) over a vanishing resource. Why? Oh it's that R word again(?) or maybe it's just you like to squabble over the last slice of pie.
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However, when one demographic sees another demographic get extra special treatment because of political pressure to compensate for something that happened 24000 years ago, the race that goes without...is going to be upset....and that leads to a 'situational' type of racism.....meaning someone who isn't 'naturally' racist may show racial expressions because of the unfairness that is happening around them. It's human nature to react when you feel hurt or treated unfairly.
This makes a lot of sense. The people who aren't "naturally" racist become "unnaturally" racist due to the government's treatment of the FN peoples. That explains why European settlers were so darned racist towards the FN people over the last few hundred years: all that special treatment. The FN got to attend residential schools (exclusive private institutions), they got their own Department of Indian Affairs (although they didn't get to work there), they got time away from their families (sometimes they even survived to see them again), not to mention free moving services (on to the reservation), and an exemption from all taxes (wait, that one's not real).
On a serious note, treating people equally is not the same as treating them fairly. Depends on the person, their abilities, their needs, and their history. I don't treat my dad the same as my 6 year old nephew because they're different people. I still try to treat them both fairly, though. Could this way of thinking be extended to larger groups of people?
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Do you understand the concepts of systemic and institutionalized racism? These are what has marked all our social and governmental relations with FN people. Most other people in Canada who are not FN have not faced this ever in their lives. FNs have dealt with this for a century and a half.
I have lived and fished in this area for over 50 years. The ill will from the recreational anglers to FN has been there all that time. I can't remember a time when anglers I would just bump into on stream would treat me to a racist rant about native nets or gaffs and how FN rights had to be totally revoked. It didn't just turn up because sockeye were opened up as a recreational fishery - something the sport community lobbied for by the way.
It is ridiculous to suggest that the recreational community has no blame for the current state of Fraser salmon stocks or that other groups are not trying to do something to reverse the trend. For a start the strength of the Shushwap River chinook stocks which is what is mostly coming into the Fraser now is primarily due to active management by FN people who live in that river drainage.
The recreational sector are major consumers of salmon up and down the coast and not just in the river. While the total take isn't big the take for Fraser and other stocks is significant.
More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead. They have been dfalling like dominoes.
To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life. All of us bear that responsibility.
What's more recreational angling is a major source of CC to the extent it now focuses extended travel, destination angling, high powered water craft and high powered vehicles required to tow them.
Recreational anglers are very little the source of the solution more a good chunk of the problem.
You assume a lot about for me for never having met me. Anyways... I did over simplify the situation but thought I had corrected it when I mentioned the discord among First Nations. Instead of Racism I should of said Nationalism. I am referring to the ongoing general animosity, "poaching"*(see Note at bottom), and fishing arguments that go on among the First Nations themselves. There is no love loss among some on the Katzie and Kwantlen or Sto-lo and Yale Bands. As such there is often questionable fishing decisions made and I will leave it a that. No point in asking for any official documentation, I am just friends with a lot of people. This is also on top of the organized drift net fisheries that seem to pop up when a sport fishing opening is allowed.
I also said that sport fishers at the PRIMARY group, not the only group. The Chehalis Band locally has done great things in the past. As you mentioned, the Shuswap has to. The Okanagan Sockeye Fisher is basically in part exclusively to First Nations. But, out of the hundreds and hundreds of groups that have work tirelessly to enhance spawning grounds, plant eel grass, restore estuaries, raise salmon, increase herring survival, and much more you will find that at there heart is usually a group of dedicated sport fishers.
And yes, I do have a hard time believing that sport fishing has been the cause of the salmon collapse. But the only way to determine that is to close down all other forms of fishing and see what happens. That will never happen however, nor should it. There is no denying that climate change is affecting salmon, that does not absolve the DFO from their clear mismanagement. We must all work together, all user groups.
*in this context I am using "Poaching" as a term for one Band claiming another band is fishing without consent in there traditional territory and not the more generic fishing illegally or in a closed season
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This makes a lot of sense. The people who aren't "naturally" racist become "unnaturally" racist due to the government's treatment of the FN peoples.
I did not say that. Please don't twist my words.
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What do you know about equality or justice other than squat? Ever read Plato's Republic or something like similar?
Understanding equality and justice is quite simple. If you can't understand the basics about it, then no one can help you.
YEE HAH! Just like our wonderful country has offered FN peoples for 150 years not to mention Chinese, Asian Indians, Women and Gay people. The residential school system was a perfect example of truly fair and complete equality. Your sport fishing inconvenience is a trifle by comparison.
Actually you are an expert at something.....side-stepping a comment when you have no answer.
As for telling me I know nothing about science ...you've just proven you know squat about science. Did I say science proves climate climate change is a fact? No because I have some understanding of how science works though though you have squat. However you seem to get it that our oceans may not be able to support salmon populations in the near future. Yet you get so excited over that fact FNs have too much control (for your liking) over a vanishing resource. Why? Oh it's that R word again(?) or maybe it's just you like to squabble over the last slice of pie.
Again....how does what I say show that I don't understand science? Science is showing us again and again why and how bad our oceans are dying....and for the record, you did say that 'it was pretty clear' that climate change is the biggest factor in the decline of our salmon stocks...maybe you should go back and read your own post. You aren't that far off of saying that climate change decimating our salmon runs is a 'fact' and you know it.
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I did not say that. Please don't twist my words.
Robbie you twist my words.Turnabout is fair play. Stop whining.
Understanding equality and justice is quite simple. If you can't understand the basics about it, then no one can help you.
Actually it’s something you are an expert at.....side-stepping a comment when you have no answer.
Robbie, agree to disagree we must.
Equality is a more complicated subject. The tactic of simplifying to the lowest possible level distorts it in the extreme.
Our society creates inequality in many ways; race, class, money, family, education, ability, sex and more. How does one fix all this and create a society where “citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer”? We certainly haven’t done this in 150 years of being a nation or in the time before that, far from it.
We do not in this country have equality of access to resources like fisheries. Access to other resources and property are more restricted than our access to fisheries.
People in the angling community have to come to grips that they are more motivated by self - interest than they can admit. To argue that FN fishing rights have to be rescinded is simply stupid and will not happen. As I like to say suck it up and get used to it.
Again....how does what I say show that I don't understand science? Science is showing us again and again why and how bad our oceans are dying....and for the record, you did say that 'it was pretty clear' that climate change is the biggest factor in the decline of our salmon stocks...maybe you should go back and read your own post. You aren't that far off of saying that climate change decimating our salmon runs is a 'fact' and you know it.
As for who knows what about science. There you are, a pot calling the kettle black. I did not say science proves climate change I said: “ To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life.” That’s an expression of opinion, nothing more.
As for “What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast.”. It has? You offer this statement as fact without any substantiation. What you apply to me you have to apply to yourself to be fair and equitable, which you are not.
Besides if you need some help from a science teacher you should go back to high school and get your GED. One thing you might learn is what ‘proof’ is in science. It’s not what you seem to think it is.
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Robbie you twist my words.Turnabout is fair play. Stop whining.
Do you or can you even read? That comment was directly quoted from Blood Orange. It had nothing to do with you.
Equality is a more complicated subject. The tactic of simplifying to the lowest possible level distorts it in the extreme.
Our society creates inequality in many ways; race, class, money, family, education, ability, sex and more. How does one fix all this and create a society where “citizens are treated with complete equality with equal chance and opportunity of what that country can offer”? We certainly haven’t done this in 150 years of being a nation or in the time before that, far from it.
I'm going to leave it at this because you simply will never understand how racism and discrimination work. When you discriminate in a way that favors one group or individual over another, the one on the losing end feels cheated....In turn out of natural human nature...feeling cheated can ( but not always ) lead to racism. It happens all the time...like right now in our salmon fisheries. People see one group getting the entire pie while being left hungry. It's very easy to be resentful towards that group.
We do not in this country have equality of access to resources like fisheries.
Finally you see the problem. Now if you could just figure out that not having equal access to salmon fisheries is 100% perfect example of what 'discrimination' is we might get somewhere in this discussion.
People in the angling community have to come to grips that they are more motivated by self - interest than they can admit. To argue that FN fishing rights have to be rescinded is simply stupid and will not happen. As I like to say suck it up and get used to it.
Funny how you don't say anything about the Natives being selfish. I was taught at a young age that when you have 'lots'...you share...and when you have 'just a little' you share also. Those type of actions and thinking are what diffuse things like racism and discrimination. The natives have every right to say that want to share the remaining fish and ask DFO that we all get a shot at it. They haven't done it nor will they ever. If that isn't the self - interest that you are talking about...then what is?
As for who knows what about science. There you are, a pot calling the kettle black. I did not say science proves climate change I said: “ To me it's clear CC is a problem associated with our way of life.” That’s an expression of opinion, nothing more.
That is not what you said. Do I really need to quote you again? You said and quote "More important is it's pretty clear that climate change is now perhaps the biggest factor in the sharp decline of our interior Fraser fish stocks - sockeye, coho, Chinook & steelhead"
As for “What HAS been proven is that the ocean is sick and dying fast.”. It has? You offer this statement as fact without any substantiation. What you apply to me you have to apply to yourself to be fair and equitable, which you are not.
Are you for real? Are you oblivious to what has been leaking out of Japan for several years. The research and conclusions are all over to read....and that is just one example out of hundreds that you can find very easily that document our oceans are sick and dying. Any scientist who disagrees with the fact that our oceans are sick and dying would be committing intellectual suicide.
Besides if you need some help from a science teacher you should go back to high school and get your GED. One thing you might learn is what ‘proof’ is in science. It’s not what you seem to think it is.
Not that I should respond to a stupid comment like that, but I have the equivalent of 5 years university.
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Ok Robbie G, without reference to the fisheries issue please explain how racism racism & discrimination really work & how you will make it go away tomorrow so we can all live your happy land? ::)
...oh I forgot, it's Fukushima leakage that is killing the ocean & it's scientifically proven by a schizoid Radio talk show host! Congrats man you've got the 5 years of university to develop the critical thinking to get that far. At least you figured out it wasn't Killery Clinton that killed the North Pacific!