Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: scales on September 13, 2005, 10:25:34 PM
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The Fall Springs run in the Fraser is huge! Best part of all this is that very few are informed. Fine by me but it would not be fair that I'm am enjoying all this with my friends.... 8) Btw mostly Reds running through the last couple of days. Get out before the runs pass through, 2 week window left.
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so, no kidding it is reds.
Huge? based on what? seat of the pants feel? the stars? so you're going to blab it on FWR with no details for others? lol !:)
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Spend some time at the river and you will find out how good it reallly is. Btw check out the Albion Chinook Test results so far for 2005 in comparison to 2004, 2003 & 2002. Numbers speak out! So does my arm! :o
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Scales called me earlier that there were only 8 guys on the bar he was fishing today & they all limited out on springs. He went after work in the afternoon and had one on in short time. That is hot fishing for springs. It must be pretty strong run still, as they are reporting hooking into springs in Richmond area while casting spoons for pinks (see other thread today).
FM, do not get fooled by his newbie status & doubt the legitimacy of Scales' report. Scales has got to be a spring master by those who have fished along side him all these years. Always got into springs when others failed. His report is on real fishing. He knows the spring run is huge this year by the sheer number of hookups by him & others around him, and he had done this for more than a decade. Of course, we cannot expect him to name the bar, if that is the detail you want. Though a newbie on this site, he is no newbie on the flow. Fished with him for the last 15 years & got outfished by the mile, especially on spring & coho. I think I still have an edge on him for steelhead, hehe! ;D
Good report Scales. Besides hauling out garbage from the bar, this post shows your unselfish nature. :) Most people would have kept this hot fishing quiet. Who needs the crowd.... ;D
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If he has been fishing this run for a 10-15 years, his experience most likely predates the onset of flossing.
If these fish are caught on a bar rig, I would love to hear more (I, personally, am not interested in going out to floss a spring).
Could you please elaborate Scales.
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Whether you floss or bar rig fish, the success should be the same with the amount of fish in the system. The method of choice is flossing for the Fraser. Point is get out any enjoy this run. Not here to talk about flossing ::)
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;D good point scales ;D
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Ok, then if this year is a smoking year then, we'll have 500 boats out off the mouth of the Fraser this weekend then--and we'll all be hooking into multiples. I know I'll be there.
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Whether you floss or bar rig fish, the success should be the same with the amount of fish in the system. The method of choice is flossing for the Fraser. Point is get out any enjoy this run. Not here to talk about flossing ::)
If you think you can catch as many barfishing than why dont you barfish for them instead of snagging them? Wouldnt you feel better about yourself if you actually caught a spring when it bit your presentation instead of snagging it?
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I think scales was just being generous to share his discovery and does not want this to turn into a another flossing debate.
Lets just leave it at that :)
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I think scales was just being generous to share his discovery and does not want this to turn into a another flossing debate.
Lets just leave it at that :)
Than he shouldn't have mentioned how he was fishing. Its not brain science to look at test nets, I look at them all the time. Also when you make a post about being able to catch just as many barfishing as snagging them than I want to know why you would choose snagging. I don't want this to be a heated debate I just want to know how one person would rather snag a fish than catch it legitimately if the success rate would be the same.
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hey scales, weren't you a previous member under a different web name? ??? :)
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Eddie, why don't you keep your b/s comment about flossing/lining on the Fraser out of this site? You can do that on the SCR site & be happy there. There are lots of BBers on this site who fish a legal method as allowed by DFO, and each is entitled to his/her method of choice. It is none of your business that others enjoy to catch fish with a legal method that you don't like. It is with this intolerance that PETA spreads its gospel about animal welfare - and your fishing method, whatever ethical approach you think it is, is just non-sense to them. Ethics is a personal thing, and let us respect that.
Rod already posted earler in another thread that we leave this ethics debate about legal fishing method aside. I don't think you should hijack this thread to turn into another ethics debate. It is people like you who just come over this site to harrass posters who just think & fish differently than yours, and you & Bantam just turn off lots of newbie posters by harrassing them. If this is the pattern you pursue, then I think the mods should censor their posts or ban them from harrassing BBers on the ethics issue.
Once again, I see the same as to what happened to Rod & Chris's great post in FishBC turning sour by anti-flossing people, and it is happening here to an unselfish report by Scales. Scales, you should have stayed off fishing sites and enjoy your successful fishing in peace.
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Liketofish, you have a total of 15 posts and I have oh 400. I don't come on here to purposely debate anything. I also help those that want to be helped. I have 28 years of experience fishing BC and like to share any information I may have that can help. I also gave reasoning to why I asked and I am not going to repeat it as you can read it in a post on this thread. I don't debate all flossing posts just ones where it is justified. The sockeye fishery is over and the DFO is asking anglers to use selective angling methods once again. That means they would prefer you not to bottom bounce. I don't debate the sockeye fishery anymore as I have given it up and just come to the conclusion that people that do it treat it as a meat fishery and not a sport fishery. Now that the sockeye is closed it is now back to a sport fishery and flossing is not necessary. Why don't you relax and get a few posts under your belt before coming at me like that.
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Whether a person has 15 or 400 posts is irrelevant to the discussion. His opinion is just as relevant as yours. My .02
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His opinion is his opinion but its not relevant. If he would have read all my replies he would understand the point I am trying to make which is if barfishing is producing just as much why would you snag fish. I have just asked questions, I have not really debated anything. I am very curious why one would choose snagging over getting a fish to bite if you can achieve the same results.
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Let me finish the line of questioning then...
Because HE doesn't have a bar rig? Because he enjoys actively casting, rather than sitting and waiting?
Two plausible reasons. Can we let this drop now? ::)
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His opinion is his opinion but its not relevant. If he would have read all my replies he would understand the point I am trying to make which is if barfishing is producing just as much why would you snag fish. I have just asked questions, I have not really debated anything. I am very curious why one would choose snagging over getting a fish to bite if you can achieve the same results.
People like different methods of fishing! Some float fish, others cast spoons or spinners, some bar fish, others bb. As long as it's legal, who really cares how you want to fish. You getting after someone because you don't like the method they use to catch fish is really lame and none of your business. As for 'selective fishing methods' there is no such thing, almost anyway you fish can catch something that is not desired.
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Let me finish the line of questioning then...
Because HE doesn't have a bar rig? Because he enjoys actively casting, rather than sitting and waiting?
Two plausible reasons. Can we let this drop now? ::)
I would actually prefer him to answer it as I don't think one should speak for someone else. I am seriously not trying to start anything just want to know. Cant someone be curious without being accused of starting trouble? A bar rig costs $1.99.
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His opinion is his opinion but its not relevant. If he would have read all my replies he would understand the point I am trying to make which is if barfishing is producing just as much why would you snag fish. I have just asked questions, I have not really debated anything. I am very curious why one would choose snagging over getting a fish to bite if you can achieve the same results.
People like different methods of fishing! Some float fish, others cast spoons or spinners, some bar fish, others bb. As long as it's legal, who really cares how you want to fish. You getting after someone because you don't like the method they use to catch fish is really lame and none of your business. As for 'selective fishing methods' there is no such thing, almost anyway you fish can catch something that is not desired.
I am not getting after anyone. I am just asking questions or is it a crime to ask questions now? You people that keep questioning me are the ones that are starting any type of conflict. Why doesnt everyone just leave it alone and let him answer it for himself.
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Don't expect a reply when you start the question by implying the individual is a snagger.
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Don't expect a reply when you start the question by implying the inidivudla is a snagger.
Good point. I'll pose it this way. If you are bottom bouncing please answer the previous questions I had asked. Just to appease the majority here I will keep his reply to myself. Even if I don't agree with what he has to say I wont reply. I am just curious.
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Sorry I could not respond any earlier to some post due to business function all afternoon/evening. Just as well if I was free I would be down at the river! Eddie99-I fished many of years with a bar rig and found the fishing gears too heavy to enjoy playing the fish and further more the coho catches were higher using this method. Kind of reminds me of Halibut fishing, just haul them in they say :-[. With BB (will not debate) as long as the law permits this method then I am game with it. BB is an art form in certain respects which allows you to control your drifts and depth. DS is right, I do enjoy actively casting. Just to end this I do fish with law enforcement personal and have been checked by CO while Sockeyes were closed without any incidences. The list can go on with the discussions I have over the years with COs but I wont. Just enjoy what resources we are given and respect the land that we use. ;D
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Just cuz the law says "THIS" doesn't mean that "THIS" is right and the values of society are not necessarily determined by the said "laws" or "regulations" that in place at the time--they are not static and are subject to change and in this time of need for conservation and the need for selective fishing methods, I think we are within 5 years of the end of "flossing" as it is called. As for the flossing debate, either way, I am not going to defend nor chastize any method of fishing, but I take pride in knowing that I fish the way I do which is conservation minded, and species selective.
Either way, flossing or not, people will sometimes follow the black letter of the law cuz they can, and as long as the courts decide certain things, there will always be followers right or wrong with their moral defense being "the law" as it states.
So, in order to get this flossing debate over with, my question to the thread is "I am going to go BAR FISHING next week for a day while I am on vacation and I would like recommendations on bars to fish away from people on the more popular bars like Peg Leg etc...can someone recommend a bar that I should go to fish which is less fished than the bulk of others? I would like to fish no further than Chilliwack.
Thank You.
by the way, let's let anyone fish the way they want as long as the regulations say it is legal, then great, otherwise, let's let people cower under the cover of the law which inadequately covers the conservation concerns of the day and future.
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Eddie, you don't ask a question - you just raised an accusation by implying all BBers are snaggers. Your intent to belittle or humiliate BBers are quite obvious by repeatedly using the term 'snagging'. DFO does not ticket people BBing, and so for DFO they do not interpret flossing/lining as snagging, as compared to the natives way of snagging with treble hooks, or to those individuals snagging pinks intentionally in the lower Fraser with a big sideway swing. BBers aim to hook the fish in the mouth, not the body as real snaggers will do, particularly the under-belly. Very few fish on the Fraser bars are hooked in the under-belly.
BBing in a high form allows the fishers to map out the river bottom as if they are touching it by their hands. Good BBers can read the Fraser flow to determine the travel path & the sitting holes of the mighty springs. Many people can bounce aimlessly, but only selected few can consistently produce one or multiple spring hookups in a day. Many also master the skill enough to avoid unnecessary hookups with sockeyes. With the water clearing, I personally saw many springs hooked squarely inside the mouth. What make someone so sure that these springs don't bite a well-presented wool by BBing on the Fraser?
Let's show some respect in other fishers' choice to legal fishing methods and we will have less contention and more unity. Scales made this unselfish post to inform others to go out & enjoy a strong run of springs. Nice guy. That is all to it.
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I know that I myself have gone out boucing throughout this summer, and although there were a few people snagging fish, this was not intenional. After a few pointers, these poor people around me were at least trying to use this method effectively. (BB that is). I personally have spent alot of time on the rivers trying to learn how to aviod snagging fish at all costs. I have become very affective at this. You don't need a 25 foot leader to catch a fish BBing. All you need to know is were to cast , at what angle to cast, and when is the right time to set the hook. I did not snag one fish using these simple guidlines, and I never used a leader longer than 10 feet.
So please lay-off the bbers. I am one of them and I like to think that with enough time and effort everyone can use this method without harming any fish by snagging.
Also I got my full limit of salmon every time I went out. Whether it was spring sockeye or pink. So using this method properly actually does work in my opinion. :P :P
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i own a fishing manual called A GUIDE TO FRESH AND SALTWATER FISHING by George S. Fichter published in 1965. it's a 'how to' guide that lists and describes the many fish species of the western hemisphere. in it also describes and intructs the many techniques of fishing.
interestingly, bottom bouncing is one of the techniques listed and it is described ......
"as a type of jigging in which the lure or sinker is allowed to bump the bottom and raise a puff of sand or mud. this method is very effective with bucktail jigs and also works well in bottom fishing with natural baits. the commotion stirs fish to strike....." then it goes on to illustrate how the line is manipulated either from a boat or from shore, using a motorized movement, or using the drift of the current.
irrefutably, this method is a legitimate way of fishing that has been practiced for many years and should not be confused with any illegal activities. further more, it states "that the commotion stirs fish to strike". i believe this to be true because i've bb with 2 ft leaders and managed to hook onto springs (on the fraser). i've also used this method to seek out fish (like rockfish and lingcod) hiding in crevasses and under water channels of the sunshine coast. imagine trying to floss the chuck...don't think so ;D
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Eddie, you don't ask a question - you just raised an accusation by implying all BBers are snaggers. Your intent to belittle or humiliate BBers are quite obvious by repeatedly using the term 'snagging'. DFO does not ticket people BBing, and so for DFO they do not interpret flossing/lining as snagging, as compared to the natives way of snagging with treble hooks, or to those individuals snagging pinks intentionally in the lower Fraser with a big sideway swing. BBers aim to hook the fish in the mouth, not the body as real snaggers will do, particularly the under-belly. Very few fish on the Fraser bars are hooked in the under-belly.
BBing in a high form allows the fishers to map out the river bottom as if they are touching it by their hands. Good BBers can read the Fraser flow to determine the travel path & the sitting holes of the mighty springs. Many people can bounce aimlessly, but only selected few can consistently produce one or multiple spring hookups in a day. Many also master the skill enough to avoid unnecessary hookups with sockeyes. With the water clearing, I personally saw many springs hooked squarely inside the mouth. What make someone so sure that these springs don't bite a well-presented wool by BBing on the Fraser?
Let's show some respect in other fishers' choice to legal fishing methods and we will have less contention and more unity. Scales made this unselfish post to inform others to go out & enjoy a strong run of springs. Nice guy. That is all to it.
I said I wouldnt respond to scales and I wont. I will respond to you however. What you just said about BB is snagging. You are "snagging" the fish in the mouth. Whats the difference of snagging it in the mouth or in the belly? Its just that it makes it legal and thats the only difference. The fish are not biting your wool so dont get me started on the art of BB becasue their is no art. Its just perfecting a way in which you can snag the fish in the mouth and thats the bottom line. Let not turn this into a snagging debate as that's not what I intended it for. I got my answer from scales and thats all I wanted. Anyone thinking that BB is not snagging is just fooling himself. I wont be responding to anyone else that wants to debate this since I have already heard it all.
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Springs bite in the river?
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Eddie, you don't ask a question - you just raised an accusation by implying all BBers are snaggers. Your intent to belittle or humiliate BBers are quite obvious by repeatedly using the term 'snagging'. DFO does not ticket people BBing, and so for DFO they do not interpret flossing/lining as snagging, as compared to the natives way of snagging with treble hooks, or to those individuals snagging pinks intentionally in the lower Fraser with a big sideway swing. BBers aim to hook the fish in the mouth, not the body as real snaggers will do, particularly the under-belly. Very few fish on the Fraser bars are hooked in the under-belly.
BBing in a high form allows the fishers to map out the river bottom as if they are touching it by their hands. Good BBers can read the Fraser flow to determine the travel path & the sitting holes of the mighty springs. Many people can bounce aimlessly, but only selected few can consistently produce one or multiple spring hookups in a day. Many also master the skill enough to avoid unnecessary hookups with sockeyes. With the water clearing, I personally saw many springs hooked squarely inside the mouth. What make someone so sure that these springs don't bite a well-presented wool by BBing on the Fraser?
Let's show some respect in other fishers' choice to legal fishing methods and we will have less contention and more unity. Scales made this unselfish post to inform others to go out & enjoy a strong run of springs. Nice guy. That is all to it.
I said I wouldnt respond to scales and I wont. I will respond to you however. What you just said about BB is snagging. You are "snagging" the fish in the mouth. Whats the difference of snagging it in the mouth or in the belly? Its just that it makes it legal and thats the only difference. The fish are not biting your wool so dont get me started on the art of BB becasue their is no art. Its just perfecting a way in which you can snag the fish in the mouth and thats the bottom line. Let not turn this into a snagging debate as that's not what I intended it for. I got my answer from scales and thats all I wanted. Anyone thinking that BB is not snagging is just fooling himself. I wont be responding to anyone else that wants to debate this since I have already heard it all.
eddie99, however method you are fishing --if you set the hook then you are snagging the fish on the mouth. There is no difference as far as the fish and the law is concern. However, the problem that I see is that some fisherman does not know the art or technique on how to properly do it and they are body hooking the fish.
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ALL OF YOU have it wrong...but, frankly eddie is the closest.
As with the opening of the spring fishery, as with the opening of the pink fishery, as with the arrival of thompsons coho:
DFO DOES NOT WANT US FLOSSING THE FRASER IN THESE TIMES!
Do you notice the sockeye fishery notices do not call for selective methods? IMHO DFO allows us to floss sockeye because of their numbers and unwillingness to bite a presentation in the fraser. DFO repeatedly indicates they doent want us flossing outside of sockeye openings...why do people disregard that? THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION!
Lots of people on this board have kids. What happens if you request that your kid not do something and then they turn around and do it. Can't speak for all you other parents but I personally would: 1) remove access to that thing 2) possibly punish the child.
Now we are not children anymore but we collectively are thumbing our noses at the body responsilbe for CONTROLLING our fishery!
What if they ban bottom bouncing...there goes the sockeye fishery, what if they just close the river down all together?
If I were DFO both of those outcomes would be a real possibility.
Think about that the next time you floss when DFO has asked you not to.
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Eddie: Bottom bouncing is a legitimate form of fishing and not snagging providing you are using a short leader.
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Eddie-99, may be I am a newbie poster and you are a senior member. Are you there underwater to see the fish not biting the wool when the fish is hooked in the mouth? I agree that fish can be hooked outside the mouth when flossing/lining sockeyes. That is a possibility when there are too many fish. Springs are not as numerous, and if springs bite wool in the Vedder, what make you so sure that the fish do not bite in clearer water as is now, as funfish suggests? I don't care how many years fishing you have, as long as you have not dived down there and see every hookup, you cannot be sure if a bite occurs or not? I have been fishing since 5 years old and I am 40+ now, so I do have an opinion just as valid as many senior posters on this forum. There are many experienced fishers who are not biased and do practise bb when it comes to the Fraser fishery.
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Page 8: Provincial Regs:
snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body than the mouth.
Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately.
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Eddie, you don't ask a question - you just raised an accusation by implying all BBers are snaggers. Your intent to belittle or humiliate BBers are quite obvious by repeatedly using the term 'snagging'. DFO does not ticket people BBing, and so for DFO they do not interpret flossing/lining as snagging, as compared to the natives way of snagging with treble hooks, or to those individuals snagging pinks intentionally in the lower Fraser with a big sideway swing. BBers aim to hook the fish in the mouth, not the body as real snaggers will do, particularly the under-belly. Very few fish on the Fraser bars are hooked in the under-belly.
BBing in a high form allows the fishers to map out the river bottom as if they are touching it by their hands. Good BBers can read the Fraser flow to determine the travel path & the sitting holes of the mighty springs. Many people can bounce aimlessly, but only selected few can consistently produce one or multiple spring hookups in a day. Many also master the skill enough to avoid unnecessary hookups with sockeyes. With the water clearing, I personally saw many springs hooked squarely inside the mouth. What make someone so sure that these springs don't bite a well-presented wool by BBing on the Fraser?
Let's show some respect in other fishers' choice to legal fishing methods and we will have less contention and more unity. Scales made this unselfish post to inform others to go out & enjoy a strong run of springs. Nice guy. That is all to it.
I said I wouldnt respond to scales and I wont. I will respond to you however. What you just said about BB is snagging. You are "snagging" the fish in the mouth. Whats the difference of snagging it in the mouth or in the belly? Its just that it makes it legal and thats the only difference. The fish are not biting your wool so dont get me started on the art of BB becasue their is no art. Its just perfecting a way in which you can snag the fish in the mouth and thats the bottom line. Let not turn this into a snagging debate as that's not what I intended it for. I got my answer from scales and thats all I wanted. Anyone thinking that BB is not snagging is just fooling himself. I wont be responding to anyone else that wants to debate this since I have already heard it all.
Eddie, just respect other people can have an opinion and fishing experience different from yours. You cannot make a conclusion for other people's fishing experiences or the enjoyment of their way of fishing as long as it is permitted under the law. You don't fish BBing, so you cannot make that conclusion that others cannot have a BBing experience different from yours. Some people hate the sound of violin when they start playing it. They stopped. Others push on and find ways to produce wonderful music. That is the way it is. Different people can come to different conclusion. Being a senior member of this forum does not give you the right to blatantly override other people's conclusion about a fishing method. If you don't like fishing it this way, just do something else that you enjoy. No one is going to harrass you like you tend to do it to others. Relax and enjoy your fishing in peace.
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I see I am outnumbered here, as 90% of you floss multiple species of salmon. So I am done talking about flossing/snagging. Please dont direct your flossing/snagging comments towards me anymore as I am done with it. The only person that agree's with me is Gooey and thats a rare occasion. Dont reply to me dont PM me or e-mail in regards to this anymore. I will be happy to teach people how to barfish, throw metal, float fish, flyfish etc. I came on this site last year for the purpose of trying to educate people and share my experiences with others. Even though I dont feel the same way as 90% of you I hope that we can put this behind us and move on.
Have a nice day. :)
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FA and Like to Fish are key examples of the problem (no offence guys)...no one seems to care that DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season.
As well, maybe we need to define snagging better. IMO, snagging is anytime a fish is hook when the hook up wasnt caused by a STRIKE. As well, the hook should be in the mouth (and to me that means INSIDE the mouth point going inside to outside). So FA if you floss a fish on a 2 foot leader, its hooked in the scissors outside to in....its snagged in my books.
Flossing does not induce a strike. Otherwise, leaders wouldnt need to be 12-15-even 20 feet long now a days.
Blade, your excert from the book begins: "bottom bouncing as a type of jigging". The author was not referring to the type of bottom bouncing done from shores of the fraser - we certainly don't "jig" when we bottom bounce. I also wonder what the regs looked like back then...do you think snagging was outlawed then...maybe not even defined!
This post, just like the rest is mostly off target becaue the simple point is: DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season! No one can argue with that....I guess thats we everyone chooses to avoid that point! ::)
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Hmm I'm not too sure about the inside outside thing that would take too many excepts.
I caught a flounder off Qualicom beach during summer, using prawn as bait jigging from boat the hook was from underneath jar into mouth. What should this be called? Striknag?
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Just because flossing is 'legal' doesn't make it moral.
Angling - "the art of inducing the fish to willingly take your offering"
Why not just get out with a drift net or dip net? You are just single strand netting, not angling.
One of the big problems with flossing is that is spreads to other rivers and systems. I had a talk with a fellow on the Ambleside fishing dock from Ontario. With great gusto he went into explaining how he was the master of this new type of fishing called 'flossing'. How he and his buddies caught 70 fish in the Seymour last year, yada, yada.
This guy now thinks that flossing is acceptable everywhere, and that's a growing concern of mine.
I chuckle at everyone sidestepping the moral issue and hiding behind the 'legality'. Esp as the DFO has been asking for selective methods.
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FA and Like to Fish are key examples of the problem (no offence guys)...no one seems to care that DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season.
The anglers maybe the problem, but why not fix the problem by going directly to the root of the problem. The root of the problem? Those who regulate the fishery. Just think, if people use the amount of time and energy spend on typing up these "debates" to consult with DFO to finetune the regulations, how different the fishery can be now.... ;) ::)
I highly recommend you guys to ask DFO staff why the size of the weight, the length of the leader are not regulated. :)
So FA if you floss a fish on a 2 foot leader, its hooked in the scissors outside to in....its snagged in my books.
Yep, in YOUR book, but that's not the regulation synopsis now is it? ;)
Thompson River coho and steelhead, are aggressive biters. They are very willing to take a spin n glow, a spoon, a spinner. Should barfishing, spincasting be prohibited in the month of September as these fishing methods are not selectiveily targeting chinook and pink salmon?
Has anyone considered what the impact on the chinook populations would be if everyone barfishes in the Fraser Valley? Please don't tell me that you know it would be minimal, because comparative studies of chinook harvest between barfishing and flossing have never been done. To determine which method is more efficient, more damaging to a fish stock, you need to first know the CPUE (catch per unit effort) of both fishing methods.
This is exactly why I can't take people seriously when they start pulling out hypothetical numbers to support their argument, an insult to science.
90% of you guys floss for various species of salmon? :o That's awful, I didn't know that and now I am disgusted! :-X I guess FWR is pretty unethical after all...
You now what's really ethical? Stop fishing.
You know what's even more ethical? Sit in that chair for the rest of your life, it would cause minimal damage to the world that we share with other organisms.
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I had a feeling we'd end up over here in the not too distant future ;)
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Good one Rodney. No matter how you fish. Fishing is having fun while inflicting pain on others. (in this case --fish).
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Rod, you are actually more wrong than right regarding what is a snagged fish.
Go to the DFO web site
click the fresh water regs
click "the Law and Fishing" (http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/recfish/Law/restrictions_e.htm) and voila:
It is illegal too:
- wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring, northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid. To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
This last sentance dictates that any flossed fish is snagged...its just a matter of enforcement (as I have always pointed out).
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What are you talking about Gooey? I didn't even bring up the definition of a snagged fish.
<edit> ya ok, I see what you are talking about now. So.... Those pinks that I caught with the hook embedded in the chin instead of the mouth lately.. Are they snagged?
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FA and Like to Fish are key examples of the problem (no offence guys)...no one seems to care that DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season.
As well, maybe we need to define snagging better. IMO, snagging is anytime a fish is hook when the hook up wasnt caused by a STRIKE. As well, the hook should be in the mouth (and to me that means INSIDE the mouth point going inside to outside). So FA if you floss a fish on a 2 foot leader, its hooked in the scissors outside to in....its snagged in my books.
Flossing does not induce a strike. Otherwise, leaders wouldnt need to be 12-15-even 20 feet long now a days.
Blade, your excert from the book begins: "bottom bouncing as a type of jigging". The author was not referring to the type of bottom bouncing done from shores of the fraser - we certainly don't "jig" when we bottom bounce. I also wonder what the regs looked like back then...do you think snagging was outlawed then...maybe not even defined!
This post, just like the rest is mostly off target becaue the simple point is: DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season! No one can argue with that....I guess thats we everyone chooses to avoid that point! ::)
well you're also part of the problem. you're so set in your ways and so narrow minded that you no longer look at things from other perspective. you've taken a legitimate technique and convoluted it to something negative for the sake of trying to justify your means.
yes bb with a 12 ft leader is flossing. but why would you compare that with bb using 18 inches of leader?
also, you don't have to bb to floss. you can float fish with 5 ft of leader in 3 ft of water and quess what?
we understand where you and eddie99 are coming from and you both have valid points, but sometimes you also have to give way to reason and be able to distinguish between what's allowable and what's not.
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ALL OF YOU have it wrong...but, frankly eddie is the closest.
As with the opening of the spring fishery, as with the opening of the pink fishery, as with the arrival of thompsons coho:
DFO DOES NOT WANT US FLOSSING THE FRASER IN THESE TIMES!
Do you notice the sockeye fishery notices do not call for selective methods? IMHO DFO allows us to floss sockeye because of their numbers and unwillingness to bite a presentation in the fraser. DFO repeatedly indicates they doent want us flossing outside of sockeye openings...why do people disregard that? THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION!
Lots of people on this board have kids. What happens if you request that your kid not do something and then they turn around and do it. Can't speak for all you other parents but I personally would: 1) remove access to that thing 2) possibly punish the child.
Now we are not children anymore but we collectively are thumbing our noses at the body responsilbe for CONTROLLING our fishery!
What if they ban bottom bouncing...there goes the sockeye fishery, what if they just close the river down all together?
If I were DFO both of those outcomes would be a real possibility.
Think about that the next time you floss when DFO has asked you not to.
Gooey, I believe you have the arguments all wrong. His claim is that BB is completely wrong morally or whatever. Your arguments have something to do with endangered stock going through the river. I do respect the DFO request not to BB when selective fishing method has been requested. In fact, I never even wet a line on the river when protected stocks are comming through. As far as fishing with other methods, I prefer it when fish comes and take the offering. Catching fish is easier when the fish goes after what is being presented. I am a food fisherman, I do not fish to cause harm to the fish for the purpose of having fun and/or amusement. I seek as well as hope to catch only the fish that I can or want to take for food.
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Rod, yes, that pink under the chin is snagged.
Dennis - if are aim was to induce a bite, why use 15+ foot leaders. I fished the last 2 days of the opening with a BARE hook...caught more fish than anyone around me...dont think for a second a flossed fish bites.
Ever notice all flossed fish are hooked on the far side of the face...thats cause you cant floss a fish and have the hook on the near side of the fish.
Blade...narrow minded...hell no...I see how DFO defines a snagged fish and tells us to INDUCE a bite to avoid snagging, I know the mechanics of flossing, and I know that dfo doesnt want us to floss outside of sockeye season. PS - I take every advantage of the sockey flossery on the fraser, but I dont TAKE ADVANTAGE of the system outside of that.
reread how DFO suggests you avoid snagging a fish and you will realize flossing falls outside of that. Show me how I am wrong in that staement and I will be forced to change my point of view.
Here's it is again: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
And in the mouth doesnt mean around it or outside-in...it means inside the mouth. Sure a steelie that takes a pink worm and gets the hook outside in or under the chin is in my book fair game...but thats the EXCEPTION...flossed fish being legal seem to be turning into the rule now...that needs to change.
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Rod, yes, that pink under the chin is snagged.
Sure a steelie that takes a pink worm and gets the hook outside in or under the chin is in my book fair game...but thats the EXCEPTION...flossed fish being legal seem to be turning into the rule now...that needs to change.
lol... I'm going pink fishing... oops, I meant, snagging, now. ;)
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i don't fly fish, but there are those who say people who fly with lead leader are flossing. i wouldn't know.
but the thing is, where do you draw the line before you go from being a conservationist, to becoming eccentric?
if it's about zero tolerence, then why allow pinched barbs when barbless hooks are readily available.
too many issues. the guidelines are there for a reason...this carrousel ride is becoming too tiresome.
change the law then maybe it will eliminate the grey areas... that's the bottom line.
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Boy, this just never stops. Are we going to debate about this year round now?
Unless you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that a fish was flossed, you cannot accuse a person of being a snagger. The only way to do that is to have an underwater camera to provide the evidence. Hooked in the mouth from the outside in? not good enough, I've hooked coho's on blades where I've actually seen them bite and somehow the hook was oddly enough from the outside in. Using long leaders? you can argue that a longer leader would give the fish more of a chance to bite since it would neutralize the action of the boucing betty and make it easier for the fish to strike. As for the term "anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth" well you do that every time we put a corky or piece of yarn on the hook.
What am I trying to get at here? Well all this talk about "flossing is snagging" is moot unless you can prove what actually goes on down there. As long as that person is using gear thats legal, you cannot go around accusing them of snagging if they happened to hook a fish in or around the mouth area. Think of what kind of prescedence it would set? People would start accusing others of flossing or snagging if in their own minds they felt that there was no way a fish would bite. I see it happening already where someone had posted about their great day catching red springs on the vedder with a fly rod and some readers thought that the fish were snagged. Boy I guess they are good enough fisherman to be able to be both judge and jury while sitting on their butts behind a computer screen.
Good on Chris and Rod for teaching readers about other fisheries they can participate in during sockeye season. We all know that they don't fish sockeye in the Fraser by choice but they are willing to give out hints on what to do. Their reports are not all about bragging ;D ;D ;D
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Gooey
can you explain how I caught a sockeye using wool and and a corkie on the retrieve when my leader was definately pointing downstream as I had reeled in almost all of my line and the fish was hooked dead center on the top lip?
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I've had fish hooked on the near side while bar fishing, fly fishing, spooning, bb, even flossed. Lets say, for a gear fisher, you're not trying to get the fish to bite the HOOK, but the lure/spinner/spoon what have you. So if a fish goes to bite the top end of the lure, and you set the hook incidentally hooking outside the jaw, the fish is now snagged? Perhaps it is "foul" hooked, in the means that it hasn't been hooked where you intended to hook the fish, which in the case of gear, inside the mouth. But since your intention was not to hook it on the chin, I can't call you a snagger.
For those who feel that flossing is getting the fish to bite, please compare the ratio between hooks embedded outside the mouth far side, inside, and near side. For the most part, a fish hooked outside the far side during the "swing" part of the drift, usually indicates that the fish weren't going for your offering.
I respect both sides of this argument, but I feel that in the end it does end up in the hands of the authorities to enforce what they feel are the regulations in simple black and white. The fact that the english language allows for such varied interpretations gives room for users to use the rules in the manner that suits them best. If the regulations specifically read "do not floss", I'm sure the population will adhere to those wishes. If they do not, then they are truly snaggers.
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Gooey
can you explain how I caught a sockeye using wool and and a corkie on the retrieve when my leader was definately pointing downstream as I had reeled in almost all of my line and the fish was hooked dead center on the top lip?
Eagleye, there are situations where sockeye will bite, even in the Fraser. The single incident does not reflect what happens during the sockeye season. If everybody were to be hooking socks dead center on the top lip during an almost completed retrieve, I don't think this conflict of interest would be present to begin with.
All fish bite in the fraser, but the conditions have to be met and the locations of these fish found.
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Thank you for your post TtotheE...I agree with just about everything you said:
Hardware fishing for coho (spoons, spinner, jigs) all can lead to hook ups around the mouth but it that case (or my pink worm example) that falls within the grey area were outside the immediate area of mouth would be acceptable.
1 in 100 socs or pinks are caught on the retrieve (I got one like that my self this year) so to referrance that one fish is pointless unless you pressure that technique and get ALL your fish that way.
Doug: when will it stop...for me: when the norm is to respect when DFO asks us not to floss and when flossing is not accepted as a STANDARD way to hook fish in smaller, clear water rivers (ie the KWB floss gong show is gone) etc.
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Doug, I had great "success" with a bare hook...as well, why use the long leaders...5 years ago 5-10 foot leaders were used. Now this year I am seeing 15 and even 20 foot leaders...WHY???
Because the more line between your weight and your hook, the more chance of a fish intersecting it, longer leader equals a bigger sweep/ark = increased flossing opportunities.
If I had poor results with a bare hook or a guy BB a 2 foot leader had the same results as a 20 foot leader, maybe I could question whether or not they are snagged - but thats not the case.
Doug, do you hounestly think that a fish hooked on a BB and a 10 foot+ leader bit?!? If they did actaully bite that presentation, then are you going to fish coho and springs on the vedder this fall like that??? I would love to hear your answer to that question.
PS - When is anyone going to explain to me how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques as describe in this quote for a third time now: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
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Scales informed us that there is a good run of springs to enjoy, and the thread now turns into another debate thread, LOL.
There is too much personal agenda about ethics. Perhaps people should cut that off. Time to focus on sharing techniques on spooning or flyfishing for pinks. After that the ho's are around the corner. Spend time writing something that will help the newbie fishermen instead of endlessly engaging in chastising one another.
The top rods on this forum can help the newbie fishermen from turning the KWB area into a floss gong show, by sharing some other techniques and insights to fish effectively, so newbies do not zero in on the crowded spots. Stay tuned.
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Gooey I respect your views on selective methods during sockeye closures
Doug, I had great "success" with a bare hook...as well, why use the long leaders...5 years ago 5-10 foot leaders were used. Now this year I am seeing 15 and even 20 foot leaders...WHY???
Because the more line between your weight and your hook, the more chance of a fish intersecting it, longer leader equals a bigger sweep/ark = increased flossing opportunities.
If I had poor results with a bare hook or a guy BB a 2 foot leader had the same results as a 20 foot leader, maybe I could question whether or not they are snagged - but thats not the case.
Doug, do you hounestly think that a fish hooked on a BB and a 10 foot+ leader bit?!? If they did actaully bite that presentation, then are you going to fish coho and springs on the vedder this fall like that??? I would love to hear your answer to that question.
PS - When is anyone going to explain to me how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques as describe in this quote for a third time now: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
I was just trying to make a point. Personally, my beliefs could be very different. The problem is personal beliefs aren't enforceable in a court of law. If someone were to step in beside me on the vedder and casted out with a 10 foot leader and BB normally (without ripping the water) and hooked a fish in the mouth, I may personally believe that he flossed that fish but I'd be foolish to try and accuse him of snagging or flossing because I have no way of proving that.
BTW anybody that has seen me and my roe stained vest on Vedder would be able to vouch for the way I fish. ;D ;D
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Thats just it doug, too many new fishermen are walking in with BBs and 10 foot leaders and using that as their mainstay when fishing the vedder and other similiar rivers.
they are exposed to flossing on the fraser and are carying it elsewhere, to a places (where by the sounds of things ) you and I both agree it doesnt belong.
I must say Doug, I disagree with you on one point: its pretty easy to identify a flossed fish (look at the gear, the presentation, type of water, and where the fish is hooked). Its easy enuff that DFO ticketed a buddy of mine for a flossed coho (18 inch leader in a slot at the tamahi).
If we are all hounest with ourselves, we wouldnt be having this debate.
Still no takers on expaling how flossing fits into DFO's statement on avoiding snagging a fish???
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Thats just it doug, too many new fishermen are walking in with BBs and 10 foot leaders and using that as their mainstay when fishing the vedder and other similiar rivers.
they are exposed to flossing on the fraser and are carying it elsewhere, to a places (where by the sounds of things ) you and I both agree it doesnt belong.
I must say Doug, I disagree with you on one point: its pretty easy to identify a flossed fish (look at the gear, the presentation, type of water, and where the fish is hooked). Its easy enuff that DFO ticketed a buddy of mine for a flossed coho (18 inch leader in a slot at the tamahi).
If we are all hounest with ourselves, we wouldnt be having this debate.
Still no takers on expaling how flossing fits into DFO's statement on avoiding snagging a fish???
To someone with experience I'm sure its not too hard to determine whether the fish they caught were flossed but try explaining to a newbie who just hooked his first fish in the mouth that he should let it go cause you suspect that it was flossed.
I agree that the prevalence of fraser sockeye techniques used in the vedder and chehalis has increased in past few years. I have not seen it too much myself because I tend to avoid those areas where it is being used.
I don't have a problem with Bottom bouncing in general, I'm just disturbed about how it is being used. From what I have seen, a lot of the fish are caught while ripping the water at the end of the drift. On some occasions I have seen some constantly jig away during the drift.This does not give the fish any chance to bite. BTW I see this done by floatfishers as well. I don't see very many fish hooked in the mouth using this technique at KWB (from what I've seen).
My opinion is as long as you use gear thats legal and give the fish a legimate chance to bite then I really cannot argue with how you fish.
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The point I was trying to make is that wool and or corkies do "induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth"
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My buddy had a great day for whites...he was hammering them on spinner blades...my best roe, wool, etc got me nothing. Then I noticed he was holding back on his drift a little...the current pushing against the blade stretched the line out and he flossed another 6 springs on a spinner blade! (when you see 6 fish come in with the hook burried in the outside of the scissors...most experienced guys know whats going on)
Eagleeye, u can dress a hook anyway you want to...if you bottom bounce and use 12 foot leaders, you will floss/snagg 99.5% of your fish. Yes a fish will bite a variety of presentations, but its all just window dressing if the fish is flossed.
any time a fish swims up stream and some gear goes down stream by it, there is a chance that a fish will be flossed. I am not saying this is an issue...what I am opposed to is people (knowingly or not) doing stuff that greatly increases the odds of a flossed fish (outside of sockeye openings).
Long leaders is one tell tale sign, bottom bouncing is another abused technigue, too much float line out, sweeping the drift...there is a long list! Based on my interpretation of DFO statement regarding how to avoid snagging fish ie inducing a bite, I beleive they don't want to have us floss in general.
Like I said, sometimes it just happens but that casual incedent is not the issue...the guys that do nothing but floss or do it unknowingly time and time again, they are the ones that need to be educated AND regulated.
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FA and Like to Fish are key examples of the problem (no offence guys)...no one seems to care that DFO doesnt want us flossing the fraser out side of sockeye season.
Amazing that you manage to extrapolate that I'm a flosser because of my comment that bottom bouncing is a legitimate method of fishing. If you had read my post I said if using a short leader. For the record, let me say that I did not indulge in the sockeye fishery. Let it also be recorded that I have fished 90 days to date this year and have yet to bottom bounce once. All my fish have been caught on bait, and spoons. How am I part of the problem ?
You may not like to hear it, but the reality is that bottom bouncing is a legitimate and ethical method of fishing providing you are using a short leader. Deal with it !
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FA, my apologies, no offence was meant. As I pointed out people can easily floss with 18 inches of leader...if you sweep your drift and hold back a bit so that the hook travels across the river, you can easily floss a fish with short leaders (not that I am accusing you of that).
I think bottom bouncing (when done right) can be a productive way to coax a fish into a strike. Problem is 9 out of 10 guys who bottom bounce do so to floss. Flossing is a bastardization of bottom bouncing that needs to be roped in.
I am curious to know how many people think bottom bouncing is out of control on rivers like: the vedder, chehalis, and even on the fraser.
I think that to a varying degree flossing is a problem on all those rivers...whats everyone elses opinion?
If people agree that flossing is getting out of control on the vedder, what do you think needs to be done? What is the root of the problem? For me those are obvious questions but lets hear what everyone esle thinks.
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I haven't read all the posts in this topic but Gooey, you make some great comments on the different methods of flossing. One of the biggest 'problems' (if you can call it that) that I have seen develop on the Vedder over the years is fly fishers 'flossing' the faster water, like the Tamahi rapids. I used to regard fly fisherman as one of the elitist fishers out there. To be able to entice a fish to take your home made presentation is an art form. Then to see that some of the fly chuckers fish with similar methods to bb'ing, I just shake my head. Don't get me wrong about the negativity of flossing. I look forward to the meat fishery on the Fraser every year because Sockeye is my favorite dinner fare. But to see people floss Coho out of the rapids was truly something I didn't expect. I believe that over the years to come there will be more and more people fly fishing the Vedder with these tactics because of their effectiveness.
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Thank you A.T.U...Another great example of a fine fishing form be bastardized by flossing.
It was the same 4 years ago on the chehalis when the water ran below the hatchery into the "gun barrel". Float fishers, bb'ers, and fly fishers alike all slogged those poor springs...after first light it really turned into something sad.
Those fish were so spooked that even the smallest float and finest presentation sent them running. I met on asian guy there, he said he spent years perfecting this method that worked for both reds and steelhead in the gun barrel. His method: a pee sized split shot with 5-8 feet of leader down to a hook. It angered me to see him flog that run.
Guess what...he was the same guy I gave cupcakes to 2 seasons back for BB/flossing the ranger run (a run easily fished with a float). After I asked him why he BB/flossed that run when he kept foul hooking socks he put a float on...didnt see him snag a single fish after that. When he had the float on he let it drift strate down the river as opposed to sweeping it. Now this is a guy that I have seen fishing the ved and chehalis for 6 years...he has some pretty good exposure to the river.
Its no wonder we have all these newbies buy gear for sockeye and then just running over to the vedder when the coho and whites show up - with the same 3 oz betties and 12 foot leaders. We need to lead example and DFO needs to clamp down on this flossing beast.
I think its much better that we act now, to stem flossing. If we dont we are forcing DFO to further regulate our sport.
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gooey, one of your arguments was your disapproval of bbing outside of the sockeye opening. you specified species like pinks and springs would take bait presentation and you didn't feel it was ethical for anyone to fish for them in that manner.
my question to you is this.... why do you feel it's ok to retain springs caught while bb during the sockeye openings, but then have a change of heart once the sockeye closes? what's the difference?
you've said before "it's ok to bb during the openings" ... the thing is, springs were caught during those times and most of them were caught by that method.
let's put aside the sockeyes and deal with the springs specifically.
as you say springs bite, therefore would you release one if you caught it while bbing, during a sockeye opening? afterall, we're talking ethics not legality, right?
also, knowing that there was a possibility of 'flossing' a spring while bbing, why did you partake in it?
once again we're talking ethics...that's your whole argument so i think it's a fair and valid question.
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Doug, I had great "success" with a bare hook...as well, why use the long leaders...5 years ago 5-10 foot leaders were used. Now this year I am seeing 15 and even 20 foot leaders...WHY???
Because the more line between your weight and your hook, the more chance of a fish intersecting it, longer leader equals a bigger sweep/ark = increased flossing opportunities.
If I had poor results with a bare hook or a guy BB a 2 foot leader had the same results as a 20 foot leader, maybe I could question whether or not they are snagged - but thats not the case.
Doug, do you hounestly think that a fish hooked on a BB and a 10 foot+ leader bit?!? If they did actaully bite that presentation, then are you going to fish coho and springs on the vedder this fall like that??? I would love to hear your answer to that question.
PS - When is anyone going to explain to me how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques as describe in this quote for a third time now: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
Ok Gooey, I'll reply. I will explain how flossing fits into DFO suggested fishing techniques.
Flossing is a technique where the leader gets pulled through the fishes open mouth and at the end of the leader is the hook. The hook shank ends up in the fishes mouth and the hook point penetrates where it catches while the hook tries to pass through. Hence, a successful flossing of the fish (ie. where part of the hook is in the mouth) satisfy the requirement that "anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth". The fish was induced to take the hook (at least part of it) in its mouth. You would notice that it did not say the whole hook have to be in its mouth.
If it is to be the whole hook in the mouth of the fish then most catches will be considered foul hook since in most cases the shaft or part of the hook will be hanging outside the mouth of the fish that was hooked.
It is also incorrect to paraphrase this to mean that it is a requirement that the fish have to bite. You and many others had made such claims in your post.
The suggestion is implicit, since flossing satisfy the given requirement (to the letter) and it does avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish. The DFO is carefully worded the statement so as not to sound like they blatantly approve or condone the practice of flossing. ;D ;D ;D
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On don't forget to check past post people were catching more sockeye than spring on bar rigs about 3~4 weeks ago.
So is bar fishing selective? NOPE. It's natural bait. Good for catching almost all fish in Fraser.
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#1 - BwiBwi, I know very little about bar fishing so I cant comment, maybe someone else can.
#2 - FF: "a simple little post escalates into this, how pathetic" - this thread in my opinion is a great one, no "yelling" or name calling, just people discussing/debating their positon...whats wrong with that. If you have no thoughtful input on the subject and you are tired of it, then why post anything - go read the Whites VS Coho thread!
#3 - matuka, your response was disappointing...do you really think a fisherman "induces" a fish to take the hook in its mouth, BY RUNNING LINE THRU ITS MOUTH...until the hook slams into the side of its face???
DFO's regs say: anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth. It doesnt mention running line thru its mouth first. While I am sure this board represents a multitude of different reading and compreshension levels for its various users, to conclude the underlined sentance above means inducing a STRIKE is the only way i can interpret it.
Webster definition of INDUCE: to move by persuasion or influence. Can you hounestly say those sockeye were INDUCED to take the hook in their mouths? NO they were FORCED to. If sockeye could be induce into taking a 4/0 gamy with a bit of wool, we could float fish or even still fish then. The main reason we hook sockeye is because we of the line and hook travelling down the river as they travel up.
Your positioning is like saying: punching a guy in the face is inducing him to take your fist in his mouth!
#3 - Blade - I never talk about ethics etc. I what I am talking about is a fishing method that is over running many fisheries. Please go back and read all my posts and let me know which one refers to "ethics" or morals.
To address your spring question, a part of any fishery includes a by product. Whether its sports, FN, or commercial, this comment is true for all fisheries. Would I release a spring hooked during the fraser soc opening, no way. Why, same reason I dont floss the fraser when the socs are closed: I dont beleive (with warm water conditions like this year and with long haul fish) that C&R is a desirable practice on the fraser. I am willing to retain spring as a by product of a sockeye fishery (which I didnt do this year but have in the past). Hope thats an acceptable answer for you.
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(http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Baker3.jpg)
wow - you mods are fasssst ;D
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Mod: Gooey, your reply has been forwarded to FF in PM, please keep the personal remarks there so the topic can remain on course, otherwise it will be locked soon.
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#3 - matuka, your response was disappointing...do you really think a fisherman "induces" a fish to take the hook in its mouth, BY RUNNING LINE THRU ITS MOUTH...until the hook slams into the side of its face???
Here is the english dictionary definition of the word:
induce
SYLLABICATION: in·duce
PRONUNCIATION: n-ds, -dys
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: in·duced, in·duc·ing, in·duc·es
1. To lead or move, as to a course of action, by influence or persuasion. See synonyms at persuade. 2. To bring about or stimulate the occurrence of; cause: a drug used to induce labor. 3. To infer by inductive reasoning. 4. Physics a. To produce (an electric current or a magnetic charge) by induction. b. To produce (radioactivity, for example) artificially by bombardment of a substance with neutrons, gamma rays, and other particles. 5. Biochemistry To initiate or increase the production of (an enzyme or other protein) at the level of genetic transcription. 6. Genetics To cause an increase in the transcription of the RNA of (a gene).
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English inducen, from Old French inducer, from Latin indcere : in-, in; see in–2 + dcere, to lead; see deuk- in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: in·duci·ble —ADJECTIVE
I think your perception regarding the moralities regarding flossing is confusing the way you would define the word "induce". In short, to induce is to cause an event to take place. Since the flosser causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth then the requirement is satisfied.
I think what is really getting to you is the fact that the fish, in some way, was trapped since they are oblivious to what is taking place as well as being an unwilling participant in the situation. In summary, you probably think that it is not fair to the fish since they have done nothing to be ending up on the hook.
If you read the DFO's statement carefully, the willingness of the fish to take the hook is not a prerequisite to legally hooking a fish.
If you are disappointed in me, certainly hope not with my ability to interpret the English language. You can certainly be disappointed that I hold a different point of view.
If the DFO limits the length of the leader, I would be perfectly ok with it. I floss for sockeyes only. There are other gear/tackle configuration that can effectively catch sockeyes. ;D
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#3 - matuka, your response was disappointing...do you really think a fisherman "induces" a fish to take the hook in its mouth, BY RUNNING LINE THRU ITS MOUTH...until the hook slams into the side of its face???
There are other gear/tackle configuration that can effectively catch sockeyes. ;D
such as? ???
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Matuka, your exact words are: Since the flosser causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth then the requirement is satisfied.
DFO says: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
The simple fact that you use the word "cause" weakens your point. Try replacing cause with induce in your sentance and it sounds silly, a fisherman can't induce a hook to do anything...but he can induce a fish to bite!
Further more you applied the word "cause" to the hook not the fish.
You didnt say the fisherman causes the fish to take the hook in its mouth. You said he causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth.
One thing that is clear is that DFO needs to do a better job communicating what their intentions are! ;)
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Matuka, your exact words are: Since the flosser causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth then the requirement is satisfied.
DFO says: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
The simple fact that you use the word "cause" weakens your point. Try replacing cause with induce in your sentance and it sounds silly, a fisherman can't induce a hook to do anything...but he can induce a fish to bite!
Further more you applied the word "cause" to the hook not the fish.
You didnt say the fisherman causes the fish to take the hook in its mouth. You said he causes the hook (or part of it) to be in the fishes mouth.
One thing that is clear is that DFO needs to do a better job communicating what their intentions are! ;)
Whether it is the hook or the fish as the focus of the event the inducer or the instigator of causality is the fisherman. When I fish, I centainly induce the hook to end up in the water and maybe to successfully induce a hook up with a nice fish.
To make the point clear, I will tell you a story.
I was fishing beside a stanger and he is catching fish after fish after fish.
I asked him, "What are you using?"
He replied, "A lure that I made."
He then handed me one to use. I used it and I caught a fish with it.
So I told him, "I want to keep the lure. How much do you want for it?"
He said --with a smile, "You can have it for free."
Since I learned something about making a particular lure. I induce or cause the man to take some money, by putting the money in his pocket. He then smiled and thanked me. Hence, I induced or caused the man to smile.
Hence, if you induce or cause to have something in another entity's possession then you induce or cause the entity to take it. As my intent for the actions that I take in the story above.
Saying that something sounds silly as an argument is definitely an invalid way to argue a point. If you do not believe me then ask any highly educated person, to get a second opinion.
I suggest you take more courses in English (to expand your vocabulary) as well as Philosophy (to formulate better arguments).
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The problem here isn't with any persons vocabulary; DFO has a statement writen in black and white.
We are dancing around, playing word games..the only issue is in the interpretation of DFO's statement.
You and I have 2 different interpretations, doesnt mean that either of us is in need of further education!
PS - your example: I(induce or cause) the man to take some money, by putting the money in his pocket. If you put the money in his pocket, you didnt induce him or cause him to take it...you gave it to him, he had no choice..."you put it in his pocket"!
I do think you and many others are misinterpreting DFO's statement. You don't see it that way so we will have to agree to disagree! ;)
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Gooey,
I gave you the dictionary definition of the word "induce", yet you failed to comprehend its meaning. There is a serious malfunction and I do not see any productive result of any debate with you. There is no validity to the way in which you argue.
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To all the "fisherman" out there, those who live in glass houses should not be casting stones!!!!! I could be wrong, but unless you have not fished the frasier for sockeye, ever, then you should not be making statements about the way a person fishes. If you have fished for sockeye then do you really expect us to believe that you have never kept a fish that may have been flossed or snagged in the mouth??? I personally think that there are some very hypocritical people flapping there gums on this site. Flossing, snagging, whatever. How bout you start posting about something that people want to hear about, and stop flogging people that like to fish for, well, whatever the heck they can catch!!!
I do fish for sockeye, I do not keep foul hooked fish, and I could give a crap if someone thinks that because I bb that I am an unethical fisherman. I myself don't like bb, but I do love the taste of sockeye, so I fish for them. It seems that to some people that if you even fish for sockeye then you are being accused of being a snagger.
I will agree with one thing though, there are way to many bbers and flossers on the veddar. I had Ia very hard time last year for coho because every run I went into was flooded with flossers 20min after first light, it was a total disgrace. Made it damn near impossible to float fish as well.
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Bobby B (BB for short ;) ), rodney moved this thread from reports to general discussion because of how the thread evolved.
One thing many of us agree on is that flossing is a problem off of the fraser on rivers like the vedder. Personally I think flossing is a problem any where outside of sockeye season. Never have I used the words like ethical, moral, blah, blah, blah, in any of my posts.
I also think the flossing problem on the vedder etc stems from the fraser fishery.
I think that the average fisherman interprets DFO regs in a very liberal manner allowing him to consider flossing a justifiable means to hook anyhting that swims by.
I think this needs to change.
Gooey, over and out...for now ;)
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Gee, didn't know you had to have a masters in english for this, I thought the topic was lots of springs in the system! Every year this discussion goes on and on, just getting more educated now! Find it humorous! :D :) ;)
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gooey. in the past, you mentioned it wasn't about the legality of bbing that disturbed you. so naturally, i assumed you were taking a stance, based on the grounds of ethics and morals...maybe you can kindly explain, where exactly are you coming from and what point are you trying to get across?
i will however, take your side on the issue of bbing the vedder. its way too small, narrow and shallow to justify using that method. besides, the majority of the people float fish therefore it is necessary to follow the norm, in able to keep the harmony and flow of the river.
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Oh, and by the way that DFO statement says "SHOULD" - not "MUST" ;)
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I was going to let this one die but since you politely addressed a question to me blade, I'll kindly respond.
I like using anologies to help convey my point. the best analogy I can think of is the speeding one. Technically we should all not exceed the posted speed limits. I usually stick to the posted speed limits in the city and neighbourhood areas. Commonly I travel with the flow of traffic on HW #1 at 120km and sometimes average 130-140 depending on the road. Coinsidentally RCMP have a new mandate to focus enforcement of speed limits in high accident areas, the #1 is not one of those areas so I regularly speed there.
For me, flossing is much like speeding, something that should be done in moderation and when the conditions warrant it.
Unfortunately sockeye on the fraser dont regularly bite any sort of presentation. The only effective and consistant way to harvest sockey in the fraser is to floss them, thats simply because they dont bite.
Flossing is snagging no 2 ways about it. The fish doesnt bite or strike the hook. We, with 15-20 foor leaders direct the hook into the side of the fish's face...close enuff to the mouth to get away with snagging it. I don't think anybody has a leg to stand on who says flossing isnt snagging. Let me pose this question: if while flossing you hit a fish in the back, is it snagged - of coarse. Now if you direct the hook into the area of its mouth, its magically not considered snagged now? Another question, I see a fish sitting in a pool, I put a buzz bomb on with a big 4/0 hook, position it below the fishes head raize my rod tip and hook it around the mouth...is it snagged - of coarse, it didnt bite - thats exactly what flossing is!
DFO (just like RCMP) prioritises things and selectively enforce the laws based on those priorities. Them not writing tickets for flossing, allows us to get away with it...flossing socks is not a priority for them (but I have seen tickets written for flossed coho on the vedder so for other fisheries it is).
We need to respect the leeway DFO gives us for the fraser soc fishery. When they ask us to us selective methods, I think we should respect that too.
My main beefs are:
- "sports" fishermen not respecting DFOs request for select fishing methods
- flossing being applied as a primary angling tactic on BC rivers like the fraser, Vedder, chehalis, cap, seymour etc
- flossing being used to fish the fraser for fish that do bite (mainly springs and pink).
Flossing the fraser is something I could tolerate if the impact on none targetted fish stocks wasnt as high as it is. Frankly with the lower water level, warmer river temps, and length of journey for most of the fraser fish, I think C&R is not viable. I believe mortality of C&R fish in this scenario is too high and with all the stocks like closed sockeye, thompson coho, thompson steelhead etc that are in the river, I can't see flossing being a justifiable way to go out and fish for species that will bite.
With abundant stocks, I don't mind participating in a meat fishery like the fraser sockeye opeing. Just like the selective speed enforcement, I will take DFOs lax enforcement to my advantage because of the fact socs are abundant and cant be caught any other way.
But with the viral spread of flossing tho, I think for the sake of "sports" angling and at-risk-stocks, flossing must stop or at least be highly regulated.
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i agree with fishfreak
besides if dfo really wanted no bb on the river they would
close it .
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What fishFreak said!
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FF you are right on one front, there is only so much talk will achieve.
Just so you are all aware, I have contacted the chair of the PSC and also been in touch with DFO regarding their "2005 public consultation". As part of the public consultation, DFO is holding a meeting focussed on "fishing reform". Two issues I would like to have input on for that panel are FN accountability and sports fishing/flossing. If they will have those topics tabled for that meeting, I will be there.
While none of you see much value in any of these threads, I have been forming ideas on why the issues exsist and what needs to be done to effect a positive change. Just simple chasnges like using direct, simple language that every person regardless of their age, race, or mother tongue is a huge step forward...look at all the different interpretations of the DFO statement talk of earlier in this thread.
Its funny, many people here agree that our collective enjoyment of the vedder is being degraded by flossing and yet NO IS DOING ANYTHING!!!!! FF, Rerigger, Gman: if we all had that attitude this world would be in real trouble ("one single person isn't going to save the world"). Thats the exact attitude it takes for EVERYBODY then to sit around on their my friend and do nothing.
I would venture to say it was ONE person who started the idea of the Vedder River Clean group, maybe it never would have taken off without that 1 person's idea and insparation. This web board initially formed because of ONE PERSON...thanks again rod!
I truly believe that sports fishing is in jeopordy with the onslaught of flossing...its something I will do my best to help stop.
What the rest of you do is up to you, just don't let me hear you complain about a flosser ruining a drift for you when you did nothing to stop it in the first place.
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yes gooey, I will agree with you there. But some of us are trying, A feww times on the vedder last year, when someone would listen, I quickly showed them the setup and that it would work, by hooking fish infront of them. Whether or not these people are still doing the float fishing thing I don't know. I do know that float fishing take alot of patience and practice. Alot of the people out there do not have any patience and want to catch there fish right away. So they use the method that worked for them on the frasier, BBing. We need to have people that have this view made aware that there is a much better alternative to bbing for the vedder and chehalis and rivers such as these. I have at times made it a point to try my hardest to totally out fish people that are bbing then showing them how I did it. How many eyes has this opened I don't know, but at least they were interested in trying float fishing.
It is at least a start.
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its great that you want to change things for the better. but lets face it. to be taken seriously, one has to be willing to show true conviction. most people who believe in a cause will never waver from their train of thought and they would never do anything that could compromise or give the appearance of contradiction.
for example, people who claim to be vegetarians, but will eat eggs and sometimes fish...will go out of their way to defend themselves and insist they're true vegetarians. (they've created contradiction, so now people who ONLY EAT VEGETABLES call themselves VEGANS).
mother Teressa who won the Nobel Price for Humanity. took her million dollar prize and dumped every penny into her cause...(that's conviction).
People like Chris Gadsen and Rodney don't believe in bbing, so they don't (even when DFO says its OK).
i don't drink and drive so i refuse to take a sip of alcohol prior to driving. (that's a personal choice i make...insignificant, but i stand true to my conviction).
you say you want to make changes. great. but if you want people to look at you without doubt, you have to 'get off that fence' and make a firm decision on where you stand. it would also eliminate many useless debates.
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Blade, very little in this world is that black and white. I enjoy access to sockeye on the fraser, years back when had a boat, we trolled them. Believe me when I say I would much rather troll sockeye so I can get that ocean fresh fight and have plenty of room to enjoy the battle (not to mention you can retain 4 fish). So you're telling me that if I didn't floss the fraser, I would be more credible?
I can buy that to a certain degree, but if all I did is troll socs, I wouldnt have any exposure/knowledge of the fraser fishery and I would probably be in a weaker position to comment on it.
I think we all agree sockeye stocks were strong this year...7 mill fish for the summer run, not ot mention the other runs. I have no problem flossing a few (7 this year) for the freezer. In july, pretty much all thats in the fraser in terms of salmon is some early springs, I could handle those stocks seeing some pressure from flossers too(because there is very little impact on closed/protected stocks).
The big problem tho is the way the sports industry is evolving, any stock in any river is getting flossed to a noticable degree and people are flossing when DFO asks them not too. Its obvious DFO has a tolerance for flossing in certain applications (as do I), that does not reduce either party's credibility! IMO, what need to be done is the formation of strict guidelines for the use of flossing to minimise its impact on closed/protected stocks and to eliminate its use on small rivers like the vedder etc.
I have suggested that access to the sockeye run needs to be separated from our sport liscence with a separate distinct permit or tag; this would distance it from the privileges of a standard fresh water liscence.
I think that could be a large step forward in a grey world.
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Hey Gooey, what's your opinion on chucking lures for salmon in river current? I watched Sportfishing BC last year and Mark P. was tossing lures into the current and 3 out of the 4 beauty Coho he landed appeared to be hooked from the outside in on the opposing side of the mouth(just like flossing the Fraser). I am just curious about this because anytime I can see fish in the Vedder while someone is chucking lures the fish do their best to get the heck out of the way.
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Earlier in this thread I said I wouldnt consider a steelhead that took a pink worm and got the hook in the side of the jaw a foul hooked fish...the fish was induced into striking the worm. Same goes for spinners, spoons, etc
Coho on hardware is one of my favorite fisheries - spinner, spoon, and jigs...nothing beats watching a coho track it down and smack your lure. If the fish hits the spoon itself and the hook then is pulled into the side of the jaw, under this scenario, I wouldnt be concerned and consider it snagged - afterall, the fish was "induced" into comitting to a strike!
Flossing with 5 -15 feet of leader...there is no question what the fisher is trying to do...and its not inducing a strike!
Thats the exact opposite of hardware fishing.
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Gooey
Your not alone on your views of flossing and I know a lot of anglers who would support a total ban of this technique.
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Blade, very little in this world is that black and white. I enjoy access to sockeye on the fraser, years back when had a boat, we trolled them. Believe me when I say I would much rather troll sockeye so I can get that ocean fresh fight and have plenty of room to enjoy the battle (not to mention you can retain 4 fish). So you're telling me that if I didn't floss the fraser, I would be more credible?
I can buy that to a certain degree, but if all I did is troll socs, I wouldnt have any exposure/knowledge of the fraser fishery and I would probably be in a weaker position to comment on it.
I think we all agree sockeye stocks were strong this year...7 mill fish for the summer run, not ot mention the other runs. I have no problem flossing a few (7 this year) for the freezer. In july, pretty much all thats in the fraser in terms of salmon is some early springs, I could handle those stocks seeing some pressure from flossers too(because there is very little impact on closed/protected stocks).
The big problem tho is the way the sports industry is evolving, any stock in any river is getting flossed to a noticable degree and people are flossing when DFO asks them not too. Its obvious DFO has a tolerance for flossing in certain applications (as do I), that does not reduce either party's credibility! IMO, what need to be done is the formation of strict guidelines for the use of flossing to minimise its impact on closed/protected stocks and to eliminate its use on small rivers like the vedder etc.
I have suggested that access to the sockeye run needs to be separated from our sport liscence with a separate distinct permit or tag; this would distance it from the privileges of a standard fresh water liscence.
I think that could be a large step forward in a grey world.
i respect your opinion and i'll leave it at that. now let's focus on the cohos. ;)
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Have you actually seen the fish target your lure Gooey? It's not that I don't believe it, just that the whole flossing fishery has made me skeptical of river fishing in general. I wish I could see through the water to watch the fish in motion when this happens to restore my faith in most river fishing. I have caught many fish over the few years that I have been out on various systems with both short and long leaders and I am not convinced that the majority(80+%) were not flossed. Now when I go to the rivers I seem to go to the extreme with shorter leaders(12") and fish well off the bottom, in hopes of catching a fish that I know(strongly believe) is not flossed.
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Earlier in this thread I said I wouldnt consider a steelhead that took a pink worm and got the hook in the side of the jaw a foul hooked fish...the fish was induced into striking the worm. Same goes for spinners, spoons, etc
Coho on hardware is one of my favorite fisheries - spinner, spoon, and jigs...nothing beats watching a coho track it down and smack your lure. If the fish hits the spoon itself and the hook then is pulled into the side of the jaw, under this scenario, I wouldnt be concerned and consider it snagged - afterall, the fish was "induced" into comitting to a strike!
??? ??? ??? I'm a little confused......i understand about flossing.......but why is the examples you gave about steelhead and cohos an exception, but Rod's PINKS hooked under the chin (probably w/ his spoons) be considered SNAGGED? Just in case you forgot it's on page 3 or 4 of this thread. And the other post about your buddy using spinner blades hooking springs outside the scissors........you say he was flossing? To me this is a little contradicting or is it only OK when YOU hook fish outside the mouth using hardware? What makes you sure that Rod's Pinks or your buddy's Springs weren't induced to bite, but hook wasn't set properly?
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Earlier in this thread I said I wouldnt consider a steelhead that took a pink worm and got the hook in the side of the jaw a foul hooked fish...the fish was induced into striking the worm. Same goes for spinners, spoons, etc
Coho on hardware is one of my favorite fisheries - spinner, spoon, and jigs...nothing beats watching a coho track it down and smack your lure. If the fish hits the spoon itself and the hook then is pulled into the side of the jaw, under this scenario, I wouldnt be concerned and consider it snagged - afterall, the fish was "induced" into comitting to a strike!
Flossing with 5 -15 feet of leader...there is no question what the fisher is trying to do...and its not inducing a strike!
Thats the exact opposite of hardware fishing.
Gooey,
There you go again. Flossing is flossing. You can use spinner, spoon and jigs as well as many other hardware. A flossed fish is a flossed fish. You can use them to floss a fish. I know this from experience, where I know that the fish got lined (by accident ;D) before it got hook when I'm using hardware. Once the fish was hook, all looks ok in everyone's eyes. Some people are less than honest and would claim that the fish cought were not flossed when using hardware. Except, I am honest and willing to admit that the fish can be flossed using hardware or lure. In fact, if you use hardware you can set up your main line almost accross some narrow river (like some part of Chilliwack/Vedder R.) or stream.
So you can use 5 - 15 feet of leader or 5 - 300 feet of main line, flossing is flossing. If people are going to floss the fish, you are going to have to redefine angling to prevent it.
You really did it this time. You forced my hand into revealing secrets that people do not talk about. Now the flossers can explore new ways to do it. ;)
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Oh wow no wonder there's big line up for BIG REELS. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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All Tangled Up:
I know a couple pools were the water is dead slow. Coho stack deep in there in the morning and rest in it thru out the day. I have seen coho in this pool chase spinners, spoons, and my homemade jigs. The fish seem to have a habit of waiting until you have 3 feet of line left before they hit....its insane! YES I have watch it happen right in front of my eyes time and time again! As I have said in other threads, this is one of my favourite fisheries an its weeks away (pray for rain). No doubt in my mind that coho take bait as well...have faith my frind!
FishinAddict to address your questions:
- When Rod asked about a pink hooked under the chin, u said (probably w/ his spoons)...I assumed we were talking flossing at that time.
- That spring trip, my bud was float fishing a colarado blade. He was sweeping his drift thru the tail out where fish were stacking. Its funny, our target was coho, we were releasing the springs...I dont think he knew exactly what was going on and after seeing 5 or so fish come back with the hook in the scissors, I was 95% so of what was happening. As Matuka points out, thru experience it becomes easy to identify a flosed fish.
Each year I spend time finding the spoon, spinner, and jig colours that work best...it changes from year to year. Notice how flossin has evolved? No new terminal tackle, no new dressings for the hook, no new scents or attractants...just longer and longer leaders (leaders that often end up littering the river bed after a snag).
Its not the guy that accidently flosses one on a spinner blade or while floating roe - those guys are trying to draw a strike from a fish...its the guys who go out there with the INTENTION of flossing a fish...thats the behaviour that needs to change.
I guess the thing that bugs me most is that the art of fishing is being lost. Fishermen are cheating and getting lazy, they dont want to work for that strike, the don't want to refine their presentation...they want instant gratification and get it by throwing on a long leader and a chunk of lead.
Unlike Matuka tho, I think some simple changes could have some very large impacts.
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Do you have a favorite lure you'd like to share with me/us? I'd love to take one to the Vedder on my next outing to give it a try. If you'd rather not say that's understandable. Thanks for your insight and good luck when the rain comes.
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PM coming your way
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i prefer float fishing on the vedder as bbing is just a waste of time ;D besides you get more fish float fishing than you would bottom bouncing in that river 8)
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I prefer flyfishing the Chilliwack/Vedder myself. This way I do not have to carry around lead. I just carry rod, reel, fly and some tippit material. ;D
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I guess the thing that bugs me most is that the art of fishing is being lost. Fishermen are cheating and getting lazy, they dont want to work for that strike, the don't want to refine their presentation...they want instant gratification and get it by throwing on a long leader and a chunk of lead.
I most certainly agree with ya Gooey! Coho season is my fave. I love how they're so aggressive when they attack my roe. I'll be trying to chuck some lures this season tho & hope i do as well :)