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Author Topic: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures  (Read 8330 times)

bcguy

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2008, 12:01:33 PM »

Actually, I have heard on numerous occasions, the Overweighty food group (SP?) makes large purchases of sockeye from bands in Alberta, I guess the traditional trading territory is rather large. I disbelieved this the first few times I heard it, but then I realized the truckloads of salmon leaving B.C. goes somewhere. Someone please tell me this has no merit or truth to it!!!!
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Griz

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2008, 01:30:07 PM »

To answer your ? about wether the Overwaitea Food Group buys F/N fish is totally untrue. Because they get all their sockeye from the Copper River in Alaska.
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typhoon

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2008, 04:02:41 PM »

After reading the replies on this matter it seems that all of you just want to give in !! The SDA is the only voice sporties have !! if it wasn't for them Sporties would probably have NO fishing opportunities !!!

This is OUR country, we live here , work here ,pay taxes here !! if us sporties have NO opportunity to fish for Sockeye then NOBODY should have the right to fish for them !!! what kind of BULL$hit is this ???

We as fishermen need a Voice to stand up for what little rights we have left !! the SDA is doing this while the rest of us hide behind our keyboards !! and then bash the one group that is trying to help us, give your heads a shake !!!
 >:( >:( >:( >:(
TH

You can complain on message boards all you like.
The absolute truth to the matter is that the Supreme Court of Canada upheld natives right to fish for ceremonial and food purposes as first priority for fish stocks.
Until this is overturned your outrage does not matter. Sport fishermen are NOT highest priority on fish and likely they never will be.
This does not give natives the right to sell fish, and the only solution to this problem is enforcement.
As stated before, this thread is not about natives - it is only about the head of the SDA advocating illegal activity.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Only future generations will suffer.
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TrophyHunter

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2008, 10:38:33 PM »

After reading the replies on this matter it seems that all of you just want to give in !! The SDA is the only voice sporties have !! if it wasn't for them Sporties would probably have NO fishing opportunities !!!

This is OUR country, we live here , work here ,pay taxes here !! if us sporties have NO opportunity to fish for Sockeye then NOBODY should have the right to fish for them !!! what kind of BULL$hit is this ???

We as fishermen need a Voice to stand up for what little rights we have left !! the SDA is doing this while the rest of us hide behind our keyboards !! and then bash the one group that is trying to help us, give your heads a shake !!!
 >:( >:( >:( >:(
TH

You can complain on message boards all you like.
The absolute truth to the matter is that the Supreme Court of Canada upheld natives right to fish for ceremonial and food purposes as first priority for fish stocks.
Until this is overturned your outrage does not matter. Sport fishermen are NOT highest priority on fish and likely they never will be.
This does not give natives the right to sell fish, and the only solution to this problem is enforcement.
As stated before, this thread is not about natives - it is only about the head of the SDA advocating illegal activity.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Only future generations will suffer.

  The only way things ever change is when someone does something to change them, through history the one with the biggest voice has always been able to make the biggest difference, maybe this thread was not about natives or comm fishermen but in order to understand why SDA would do something like this you have to examine their reasoning..... it is quite obvious to me why they said what was quoted !!

  You are quite right when you say that the Supreme Court of Canada upheld natives right to fish for ceremonial and food purposes as first priority for fish stocks, this doesn't mean it is right !! and it also doesn't mean that it can't be changed !! Our government has made many many many bad decisions in the past and they continue to do so on a daily basis, I think that the SDA is saying what many of us want to say.... not just saying it but trying to do something about it !! this is how change takes place one small step at a time, I for one am sick and tired of hearing the same crap over and over every year, I 100% disagree with how the Government of Canada has chosen to deal with our fisheries, I 100% disagree that any citizen of Canada should have any rights that tower over anyone else whether you are Native or not !!

  Typhoon if you are happy with the way things are then I am happy for you!! I for one am not happy and I would suspect that most citizens of this country aren't either... eventually change will have to take place, because if it doesn't there will be no stocks left for anyone.. that is a fact you can take to the bank..

this is not a Jab at you, you can believe and stand for whatever you like, I am just telling you how I see it

TH
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nosey

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2008, 07:51:42 AM »

    The Supreme Court of Canada is the final appeal, once you lose in the Supreme Court there is no change to the ruling, if you think that by giving your money to the SDA you are going to change a Supreme Court ruling then you are delusional, if the SDA are leading you to believe that they can overturn a supreme court ruling then you are being defrauded out of your donations
     I would imagine that any group that has such a devoted and dedicated following can make a lot of noise if they so choose but if only if the will of the people is with them will they be able to achieve their goals.
     If by media spin or an ill conceived protest fishery during times when the people of BC are hearing nothing but bad news about the salmon runs the SDA gives all sports fishers in BC a black eye we will never be able to undo the damage done. One bad public relations blunder and the SDA winds up with them looking as nothing better than a lunatic fringe group and the mainstream fishermen in BC all end up getting tarred with the same brush.
    Please remember when it comes time to go to court the natives have constitutionally ingrained aboriginal rights, the commercials are losing their livelyhood, and with the wrong type of PR we sportsfishermen come across as a bunch of rednecks that just want to kill fish for the fun of it.
    So Trophy Hunter make all the noise you want to but just remember once you take something to the Supreme Court of Canada and lose you've lost forever and if you're going there with the worse legal team and the worse presentation you will lose for all the fishermen in BC.
    And just as an afterthought I don't really think that under present world political situations the judges in Canada are that sympathetic towards groups that take on a name that's reminiscent of some sort of militia group or terrorist organization and makes it's points by acts of civil disobedience.
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Old Black Dog

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2008, 08:47:34 AM »

Nosey, go back and look at what Mr.Otway said.
He was saying that the numbers that DFO has used to date show that there is a chance that there can/will be an opening for other than F/N.
So, if that is the case and the numbers show there can be an opening, he is proposing that they might fish to get the case before the courts.
If he/ they were charged and go to court then this opens up the can of worms that DFO does not want opened and that is why they did not charge him/them the last time.

I see that you do not want to do anything at all, and that is your choice.
Mr Otway does not agree with doing nothing, so he will move forward as he stated.

Fishing is now all about politics and that is how the game is being run.

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nosey

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2008, 12:56:47 PM »

  Any time you go to court to challenge the status quo you run the risk of losing, this has happened in quite a few court cases involving the First Nations recently, the problem being the when you lose it doesn't involve just going back to the status quo because the FN lawyers are also there challenging it, it involves running the risk of losing what we have now.
  A few years back when the Cheam band was charged with illegal driftnetting the SDA was quick to take some of the credit for pressuring the feds into having them charged, when the final verdict came down in 2004 and the Cheam Band won it resulted in ten times the amount of driftnetting on the Fraser River and now it was no longer illegal, resulting in more FN fishing and less fishing opportunities for sportfishermen, Bill Otway and the SDA were suddenly silent ,hiding in a closet with their collective  tails between their legs harrumphing like they were in a bad episode of South Park.
  If you plan on taking these issues to court remember that your opponents there are just as endignant and sure they are right as you are and if you are going up against the FN's or the  commercial fisheries you are fighting against people with almost unlimited resources when it comes to lawyers and many victories going their way historically.
  If you want to go to court and fight these issues be prepared to live with results and take a share of the blame if you lose, for rather than expanding on what rights we have now you could wind up losing everything.
  What I've been trying to impress here is don't do anything that will turn public opinion totally against the sports fishery, we have in the last few years taken some bad hits in that area already.
   I wish that Mr. Otway or a direct representative of Mr. Otway would jump on here and absolutely clarify what he said and in what context it was meant, this whole thread could just be a waste of time.
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jetboatjim

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2008, 01:22:03 PM »

Nosey what groups or clubs do you belong to? And do you ever donate or voice your concerns out loud?

bottom line is more people have to get involved, a few hard working people will make very little difference with everone else sitting on the fence barking what should be done next.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2008, 03:14:20 PM »


I no longer sit on the SDA board as I wanted to cut down on the organizations I was involved in but if it was not for the SDA there is a good chance we would not be fishing at all on certain areas of the Fraser.

 Before we come down too hard on the SDA I would suggest all re re read some of the posts from the topic: Angling on the Fraser Threatened, Cheam Files Injunction. Below is my first post on the thread which is 14 pages long. ;D

I just got word that the Cheam Band has filed an injunction in Victoria to prevent sports angling on the Fraser River from Dewdney Slough to Herrling Island.

I have not seen the notice yet but will get my hands on it tonight for more details. It is on hard copy and not on e mail.

Am not sure this injunction will be just when FN are fishing or not.
The hearing was thought to go tomorrow but a call was made to the court registry at the Victoria courthouse and it may be heard on Friuday. It seems the Cheam lawyer wants to know how it went on the river last weekend during the 12 hour drift netting and 48 hour set net.

Is this the beginning of the end for us? If not it is certainly the thin edge of the wedge.

I have been in contact with the president of the SDA and we will be represented in some way at this injunction hearing. Also he has given the ok to notify the press so feel free to spread the word, what have we got to lose. It certainly could be a sad day not only for us but for the fish as well that will also suffer greatly. Once again FOC should be questioned that the law presently states these fish are supposed to be for food and ceremonial use only. How many fish does someone need to satisy this?

Time to tighten this up before more opportunity is given I would say. 

Another thread that contains the press release on the failed injunction.


For Immediate Release: August 10, 2005

At 9:30 this morning, Justice Rice of the BC Supreme Court dismissed an application by the Cheam Indian Band to remove all sports fishermen in boats from a 20 kilometer stretch of the Fraser River during Cheam fisheries.

In his ruling, Justice Rice confirmed that sports fishermen and the Cheam both have a right to be fishing on the Fraser.  He ruled that sports fishermen are exercising their public right to fish in an activity they love.  Cheam fishermen are exercising their constitutional right to fish for food, but left open the question whether this right extends to fishing with drift nets rather than the traditional set nets.
 
Justice Rice ruled that although the sports fishing boats which anchor in 3 to 4 feet of water near the beach, “slow down” the Cheam fishery, it does not give rise to an interference in the Cheam fishery unless it prevents the Cheam from achieving their food fish needs.

In their application, the Cheam complained that they would not meet their food fish needs if the sports fishermen were allowed access to the river, but Justice Rice was concerned by the evidence before the Court which indicated that:


The Cheam had a long history of selling food fish illegally.  He cited band member Darwin Douglas, who had submitted an affidavit to the court complaining about a lack of food fish, but had testified before the 2004 Fraser River investigation that he sold part of his 2004 harvest illegally;
The Cheam had already enjoyed more than 32.5 days of food fishing in 2005;
No other band fishing in the area had complained about the sports fishermen;
That other bands were apparently able to satisfy their food fish requirements using set nets rather than drift nets, but were still able to sell a substantial portion of their catch through the Sto:lo-only commercial fishery;
That Cheam Band members were fishing illegally outside of the legal DFO openings;
That the Cheam had not provided the court with disclosure about their number of openings, their catches so far this year, their food fish requirements, their surplus catches which had been sold and other evidence necessary for the court to decide this type of injunction application.

Justice Rice also noted the evidence of how conflicts are resolved in the Fraser River community downriver of the Mission Bridge.  He cited evidence from Mike Forrest, a mariner and Port Coquitlam city councilor, who stated that commercial and aboriginal fishermen adjusted their fishing practices to share the Fraser River with 20,000 ton container ships, ferries, navigation buoys, barges, log booms and other river traffic and the Cheam could do the same.

In dismissing the Cheam application, Justice Rice concluded that the Cheam would not suffer irreparable harm if the sports fishery continued.  Justice Rice issued costs against the Cheam in favour of the two defendants, Phillip Eidsvik, who represented himself, and Bob McKamey who was represented by Chris Harvey, counsel at the firm of McKenzie Fujisawa.

“The message from the court is clear, all fishermen have a right to share the river and the fishery,” said Phil Eidsvik, a spokesperson for the BC Fisheries Survival Coalition. 

Eidsvik noted that “Fishermen must accommodate the needs of other users and no fisherman has an absolute right to the river – anglers cannot blockade the entire river, but neither can the Cheam have the entire.”

“This decision should lower the risk of confrontation between anglers and the Cheam in the Chilliwack area because the court has confirmed the right of both groups to be on the river.  Neither the sports fishermen, nor the Cheam have a right to the entire river, there is space for both,” concluded Eidsvik.[/b]
 

 
 

typhoon

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2008, 03:28:57 PM »

Sorry Chris, are you saying that because the SDA did something good in 2005 that we should accept Otway advocating poaching as a protest measure?
I sure hope not.
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marmot

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2008, 03:56:00 PM »

People squabbling over a diminishing resource always brings out the worst.  Rather than bitch about the sports fishermen not getting a poke at the sockeye (and going as far to say they will fish during a closure), the SDA SHOULD be at the front of the line, advocating a total closure of sockeye fishing on the fraser until the stocks have a healthy rebound if they give a F about the fish and not just the sport...  I just don't understand how people can be fighting to "take" their share with the status of the sockeye (and other salmon runs) as they are.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 03:58:03 PM by marmot »
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chris gadsden

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2008, 04:14:49 PM »

Sorry Chris, are you saying that because the SDA did something good in 2005 that we should accept Otway advocating poaching as a protest measure?
I sure hope not.
Not at all and I still feel the article has taken Bill's comments out of context on what he really said.

I think most people just want to see fairness in our laws and they are abided by all fishing sectors. My stance as most readers of my posts know the survival of our fish stocks for the future is the most important thing in all of this.

PS

I am not going to get in a prolonged debate on this and will leave that to the input of others as well as I said earlier I am no longer on the SDA executive
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 04:20:03 PM by chris gadsden »
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salmon river

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2008, 03:35:25 AM »

Quote
The absolute truth to the matter is that the Supreme Court of Canada upheld natives right to fish for ceremonial and food purposes as first priority for fish stocks.
Until this is overturned your outrage does not matter.

All Parliament would have to do is invoke the notwithstanding clause to overturn any of these SCOC rulings if they wished to. So if you want things to change lobby your MP.


Not to mention salmon numbers with rising ocean, river temps, destruction of spawning and habitat areas there is not going to be many salmon left anyway and will never be like the 'old days' again either. Every group whether first nation or sporty needs to realise this and get used to it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 03:42:42 AM by salmon river »
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nosey

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Re: Bill Otway threatens SDA members will go fishing during Closures
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2008, 12:16:04 PM »

  So far,no federal government has ever invoked the Notwithstanding clause, and any invoking of the Notwithstanding clause can only have a maximum lifespan of 5 years so this is not a permanent solution. To invoke the Notwithstanding clause a legislature must " pass a piece of legislation that explicitly declares its intention to invoke the Notwithstanding clause. In addition, the legislation must explicitly state which laws are to operate notwithstanding the Charter, as well as which particular rights and freedoms the law will be immune from. These requirements are significant in that they help to ensure that legislatures cannot use the Notwithstanding clause in a stealthy or secretive manner. As the clause must be invoked through legislation, opposition members in the legislature have an opportunity to criticize and draw public attention to the declaration. Moreover, the requirement that the legislation explicitly state the nature of the Notwithstanding declaration helps to ensure that the public is fully informed of the intention and effect of the legislature's actions."
  What I'm saying here is don't hold your breath on this one with a minority government in what is possibly an election year it just isn't going to happen, you might as well say all they have to do is fly to the moon and throw moonrocks at the natives it would be about as simple.
  It's not a bad idea to lobby your MP though, try sending a letter or two to John Cummins telling him that the sports fishermen want the pecking order changed when it comes to sockeye priorities, I'm sure he and his commercial fishing buddies need a good chuckle once in a while. Seriously though write those letters, our MP's don't know of our concerns unless we voice them.


   BTW just as a reply to , the clubs or organizations I belong to or whether or not I voice my opinions out loud have absolutely no bearing on whether or not Mr. Otways comments were harmful to the image of sportsfishermen, it's a cheap political trick if you do not like the message to try to discredit the messenger.
   Another point before I head out fishing is this. Just because the DFO dropped the charges against Mr. Otway in his previous protest fishery does not mean that they were afraid to hear what he had to say in court nor does it make his actions right, if you accept this logic you would also have to accept that the actions of John Cummins and his commercial protest fishery in 2004 was right and protest fishery the natives held last year at the Big Eddy in Yale was also right.
   For someone to get themselves deliberately arrested so they can use the courts as a public forum is an abuse of our court systems that the taxpayers of Canada have to pay for, the DFO has made the right move by not allowing any of the user groups waste the time of our judiciary system by turning our courts into some sort of media circus. Please remember that the majority of the people paying for our already overworked prosecuting attorneys and judges are not fishermen and they might appreciate it if the courts were reserved for prosecuting real criminals instead of special interest groups looking for free publicity.
   Early on in this thread OBD suggested that I learn how to spell then in another entry he went on to say that in an article saying that the DFO were telling the FN's that there was a strong possibility that they would not have enough fish for food and ceremonial purposes that it was possible Mr. Otway translated this to mean there was a possibility for other openings. I'll tell you what OBD I'll learn how to spell if you learn how to read.
   I'm not denying that Mr. Otway and the SDA have done some good in the past,what I am trying to impress here is that they have it in their power to do irepairable harm to the sportsfishers of BC by holding or supporting a protest fishery in times of severe conservation concerns, be they real or perceived. One misquote or even a TV interview with just one overzealous supporter could wind up turning public opinion against us forever. If someone as supposedly intelligent as Mr. Otway can be so badly misquoted or misunderstood by the newspaper, can you imagine what Larry the cable guy all dressed in camo out on Peg Leg could be made to sound like by some sensationalist journalist?
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