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Author Topic: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon  (Read 245599 times)

Dave

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #585 on: January 11, 2012, 07:41:07 PM »

Thanks Sandman ;)  was going to have salmon for dinner tomorrow - now thinking a bowl of walnuts will really make my wife happy. :D :D
Get over it, people want to eat salmon.
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Sandman

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #586 on: January 11, 2012, 08:09:39 PM »

...Get over it, people want to eat salmon.

Thanks for clarifying that Dave.  I am glad we can agree on something.
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #587 on: January 11, 2012, 08:35:15 PM »

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Sandman

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #588 on: January 11, 2012, 09:42:35 PM »

Sadly, a family out there that owns and operates a small walnut farm is losing their shirt for your omega 3 dose.  

Wow, really grasping at straws.  That document is showing the difficulties that small farms are having competing in the market as their land values rise and eat into their profits.  The larger farms in the study were making money.  But this is EXACTLY the point.  By locating in the ocean where there is no pressure to turn the farmland (like those farms in the Sacremento Valley) into residential land, these open net salmon farmers can produce the salmon more cheaply than can a land based farmer (be it salmon or walnuts).  But if cheap farmed salmon was not available and the wild BC salmon was too expensive for those Californians in need of their Omega-3, then the demand for walnuts (or flax seed oil, or any of the many other sources of Omega-3) might increase and thereby make those small farms more profitable.  Tough luck to that small walnut farm family who is "losing their shirt" because the BC salmon farmers are allowed to operate their farms without worrying about the discharge of their environmental outputs (no riparian set back here to cut into their cultivatable land area) and so produce a cheap and tastier source of Omega-3 and everyone else be damned, so long as they get their profits and Dave's wife gets her farmed Atlantic salmon.

These are not organic either.

No, of course we would all love cheap organic food, but I would still rather have a non-organic farmer spray his pesticides onto his trees, where it is less likely to spread from the farm into the surrounding environment (some leaching into ground water and some carrying on prevailing winds is likely, both of which can be minimized by proper management controls like not spraying when it is windy or if it is going to rain the next day), than a fish farmer tossing antibiotics and pesticides into the ocean unfiltered (uneaten pellets covered in the chemicals fall through the pens and enter directly into the marine environment along with the other waste) where there is no minimizing of the outputs at all.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 09:45:23 PM by Sandman »
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #589 on: January 11, 2012, 10:03:44 PM »

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(uneaten pellets covered in the chemicals fall through the pens and enter directly into the marine environment along with the other waste) where there is no minimizing of the outputs at all.

  Like it has been stated before the farmers do not want to lose any feed to the environment.  Underwater camera's are used to monitor the feeding so minimal feed is wasted.  Feed is salmon farms #1 expense.  Unlike what AF would like you to believe there is far less of those items in the feed when they are being used.

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Wow, really grasping at straws.  That document is showing the difficulties that small farms are having competing in the market as their land values rise and eat into their profits.  The larger farms in the study were making money.  But this is EXACTLY the point.  By locating in the ocean where there is no pressure to turn the farmland (like those farms in the Sacremento Valley) into residential land, these open net salmon farmers can produce the salmon more cheaply than can a land based farmer (be it salmon or walnuts).  But if cheap farmed salmon was not available and the wild BC salmon was too expensive for those Californians in need of their Omega-3, then the demand for walnuts (or flax seed oil, or any of the many other sources of Omega-3) might increase and thereby make those small farms more profitable.  Tough luck to that small walnut farm family who is "losing their shirt" because the BC salmon farmers are allowed to operate their farms without worrying about the discharge of their environmental outputs (no riparian set back here to cut into their cultivatable land area) and so produce a cheap and tastier source of Omega-3 and everyone else be damned, so long as they get their profits and Dave's wife gets her farmed Atlantic salmon.

And this is my point.  Some agricultural businesses ei: salmon farms, are better suited for large corporations to operate.  Like the large walnut farms that are maintaining income.
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Sandman

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #590 on: January 11, 2012, 10:44:59 PM »

Like it has been stated before the farmers do not want to lose any feed to the environment.  Underwater camera's are used to monitor the feeding so minimal feed is wasted.  Feed is salmon farms #1 expense.

How is a camera going to stop the feed from being lost?  You cannot make a fish eat a pellet that has fallen through the pen by taking a picture of it.  Catching it on camera will not not make the fish more efficient at eating the food that is dropped in the water.  All the camera does is show them how much they are losing so they can adjust how much they feed them (amount distributed - amount wasted = amount consumed, so if they figure 100,000 salmon need 1000 kg of feed and 5% is falling through, then they need to drop in 1053 kg.), and so they can accurately document the costs of the feed and the amount consumed (amount consumed + amount wasted = cost of feed). Are they collecting this wasted food and redistributing it? No.  It is being distributed directly into the surrounding ecosystem where it is being consumed by other organisms.

Unlike what AF would like you to believe there is far less of those items in the feed when they are being used.

What about the other chemicals (antibacterials, disinfectants, pesticides, etc) that, when applied in the water, can disperse and affect non-target species?

And this is my point.  Some agricultural businesses ei: salmon farms, are better suited for large corporations to operate.  Like the large walnut farms that are maintaining income.

I really does not matter to me how big the company is, as long as they are not farming exotic species in open net pens in BC waters where the environmental outputs are discharged directly into the environment.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #591 on: January 11, 2012, 11:10:52 PM »

I believe I may have solved the Omega 3 supply problem.  :o

The salmon feedlots must feed the salmon some form of carotenoids in order to make sure they have Omega 3 levels near those in wild salmon, but more importantly to ensure that the flesh color looks like salmon should. The most commonly used carotenoid is astaxanthin which is produced either synthetically from oil, or produced naturally from microalgae or krill. Apparently this compound makes up as much as 30% of the cost of the salmon feed.  ???  (Bet you didn't know that 30% of the cost of that farmed salmon fillet is dye.)

Rather than buying walnuts or fish oil.....   buy astaxanthin capsules! http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_nkw=astaxanthin&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&clk_rvr_id=306237062720&rawquery=astaxanthin&MT_ID=368&crlp=451103750_53&tt_encode=raw&keyword=astaxanthin&geo_id=11

Now can we get rid of the open net farms??
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Disclosure:  This post has not been approved by the feedlot boys, therefore will likely be found to contain errors and statements that are out of context. :-[

Sandman

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #592 on: January 11, 2012, 11:11:50 PM »

I am still waiting to hear "good" arguments why open net Atlantic salmon farms should be allowed in BC.  The economic benefits to individual British Columbians do not appear to be as good as Sport Fishing which employs 3 times as many people and generated many more spin off (indirect) benefits, and yet open net aquaculture has the potential to negatively effect this important industry by contributing, however, small, to the decline of wild salmon. Since most factors affecting salmon numbers do not act alone, but rather in concert, which makes determining the relative contribution of each factor extremely difficult, the insistence from salmon farm supporters that anti-farm activist show conclusive evidence that farms are responsible for declining wild salmon is as irresponsible as anti-farm activists exaggerating claims or jumping to conclusions.  If one industry has the potential to negatively effect such a large employer, it should be curtailed, not expanded.  So why is it being expanded? Salmon farming is a growth industry.  Unlike the Sport Fishing industry, there is the potential for individual investors to get very rich by growing this industry in BC.  You simply cannot do that with Sport fishing, which tend to be comprised of many small operators.  There simply is not same kind of opportunities for investors to get rich by investing in a new lodge or guiding company, even though it would generate as many or more jobs (both direct and indirect).  Open net salmon farms make rich people richer.  That is the only reason they are here.  Once again economic imperatives override environmental considerations.
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #593 on: January 11, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »



Quote
What about the other chemicals (antibacterials, disinfectants

You think commercial fishers do not use this? 

Sounds like you fed fish at one time or another.  The cameras are not at the bottom of the pen they are mid water to ensure that feed is not wasted and released to the bottom where I do not hang out to much but some are seem really concerned about it.

Its a farm and the same things are happening all along the Fraser.  Lets clear it off!  I surprised there are any fish with what goes on there in agriculture.

By the way, I searched PCB's in walnuts and could not find anything but in that search almost ever link mentioned pcb in farmed and wild salmon.  Watch out fish people.  The walnut farmers are de-marketing all of us.            NUTS :'(

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aquapaloosa

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #594 on: January 11, 2012, 11:20:56 PM »

Quote
I am still waiting to hear "good" arguments why open net Atlantic salmon farms should be allowed in BC.

So far so good I would say.
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Sandman

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #595 on: January 11, 2012, 11:36:15 PM »

You think commercial fishers do not use this?  . . . Its a farm and the same things are happening all along the Fraser.  Lets clear it off!  I surprised there are any fish with what goes on there in agriculture.

Is this part of that "social paradigm" I am supposed to accept, where two wrongs make it right?

As I just finished posting, the decline of salmon is undoubtedly a combination of a variety of effects, but just as I do not accept clear-cutting logging as an acceptable practice around salmon streams, just as I support the increase of the riparian set backs (with compensation) to try to minimize the effects of agriculture on salmon and other fish species, and just as I do not accept Victoria (or other industries) dumping their effluent directly into the ocean or streams, I cannot accept the negative effects of open net aquaculture on the environment.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 11:38:04 PM by Sandman »
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absolon

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #596 on: January 12, 2012, 12:06:30 AM »

Nonsense.  Your using a  Red Herring.  My arguments against open net pen salmon farming of Atlantic salmon were directly against the introduction of an exotic species into BC waters and the direct discharge of effluent and other environmental outputs from the operation directly into the surrounding environment.  It is the same argument I use against a city like Victoria discharging its sewage untreated into the Georgia Strait - no good can come of it, no matter have efficient and cheap it is.  My arguments against the social paradigm was directed against the arguments FOR open net farming of Atlantic salmon in BC waters (the so-called economic benefits).

No, your argument was against feedlot rearing in general and a food system that will fly an orange halfway round the world and on those points I agree. However, such is the nature of the capitalist "free market" system and like it or not, that system exists and it does raise livestock on feedlots and that isn't going to change. We aren't going to become a society of vegetarians or eaters of locally grown tilapia; we (and I mean the generic we) are going to remain a society of consumers who demand that our wants be fulfilled. That system also requires that we have jobs and those jobs require producing salable products that satisfy those consumer wants in order that the wages and profits required to exist in that system can be earned.

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Not true. However difficult it might be, a paradigm shift is not only possible...it is imperative.

Don't hold your breath. The world is currently being ripped apart by the efforts to expand the existing "free market" system that is the determinant of our social paradigm. Governments around the world are shifting rightward towards more complete adoption of it's principles; consumers everywhere trip over themselves to support the system that allows them access to unnecessary goods they believe "enhance" their lives. We are stuck with this system until it collapses of it's own weight and in order to be successful in the market, those goods that sell must be produced. That you don't like seapen salmon rearing is a given, but your arguments against it based on the social paradigm are entirely irrelevant.

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Except that, while the economic outputs (as measured by GDP) of the Sports Sector are slightly less (and therefore less attractive to investors and tax collectors) the Sport Fishing sector employs more people (7,700 vs 2100 for aquculture, in 2005) and generates more revenues ($885 million vs $328 million for aquculture, in 2005) so it would seem to be more valuable as a producer of economic activity and jobs and would therefore, I would think, be more important to the average Joe. Also, because of the difficulty of assessing the economic value of service industries, I can't help but feel that the contributions of the Sports sector to GDP is under estimated, especially with its close ties to tourism (what is the fisherman's wife doing while he is out fishing all day?).  If that is the case, I would think that an activity that might jeopardize that (such as a catastrophic decline in wild fish caused by disease spread from open net farms, however unlikely that might be) should be avoided.  More should be done to protect, promote and expand the sport fishing and tourism industries, not promoting and expanding a less valuable industry that has the potential (however remote) to negatively affect the single largest industry (by employment) in the fisheries/aquaculture sector.

Get your numbers right. As I suggested in my previous post, the cumulative economic output of direct, indirect and induced benefits from salmon farming, a sum of $699 million, is approaching the cumulative total from those same sources for the combined output of the commercial salmon harvest, $366 million, and the sport salmon fishing sector, $419 million.

Full Time Equivalent cumulative employment for salmon farming is 2,900, the commercial salmon sector is 2,300 jobs and the sport salmon sector is 3400. All numbers for 2005; sourced from tables on page 2 of the last link in the list I posted previously. While employment in the sport salmon sector is roughly 15% greater, it is also seasonal rather than year round as in the salmon farming sector.

Economic output including multiplier effects for salmon farming is roughly 65% higher than for sport salmon. Regardless of your personal take on the accuracy of the measurement, the numbers are what they are.

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But we have seen it.  It is evident in the dramatic declines in stocks of wild salmon and steelhead since the 1990s.  What we have not seen is the scientific proof that this dramatic decline in salmon and steelhead stocks was caused by the farms, which you need to see before you are willing to admit that farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental output directly into to the surrounding environments (often the very same environments that millions of young and maturing salmonids swim through to and from their natal streams) is probably not a good idea.

Industrial logging has had an enormous effect on fish stocks over the second half of the 1900s. It was a primary industrial driver for the province and it operated with a slash and burn mentality that shaved hillsides and watersheds and changed the nature of the rivers that drained them. The ability of the watershed to retain water and release it slowly to feed the streams was destroyed and along with it the habitat that allowed the salmon grounds to breed and the fry grounds to rear and it wasn't until 1993 and the Clayoquot protest that logging companies began to change their practices to reduce the destruction left in their wake. Many watersheds have still not recovered and many salmon runs were all but wiped out.

BC population has doubled since 1971 and that increased population has swallowed great tracts of land for roads, cities and housing, and resulted in the growth of business and industry to service and employ it. That population creates a waste stream composed of garbage, runoff and the effluent of industry that escapes to and pollutes streams and groundwater and uses land in such a way as to render innumerable small creeks and rivers unusable by the fish that had spawned there for generations.

Wild salmon stocks have always been under growing pressure by the commercial fleet since the sixties and by the late eighties, the fleet had reached a new apex in catching power. The fleet was now able to capture in hours what used to take months. The pressure was so intense that the government went into the business of making fish in hatcheries to supply the fleet and we underwent an extended period of genetic modification as hatchery selection changed the essential genetic nature of many runs by selecting for hatchery survival rather than wild survival. The government undertook a number of fleet reduction programs to reduce fleet catching power but every one resulted in a further technological surge that resulted in even greater catching power than had previously existed. Catching power and catches finally began to decline when the fleet ran out of fish. They began to increase once again as the fleet switched more of it's focus to the lowly pinks and chum and began to take steadily increasing catches of those species. http://www.fish.bc.ca/files/EvolutionCommercialFisheries-BC_2004_0_Complete.pdf

Sport salmon catches were thought to be minor and were therefore poorly studied until the early eighties when DFO realized that the sports sector were taking over 30% of the coho and chinook catch coastwide and an even higher proportion in Georgia Strait. This set off a rush of statistics collection and caused conflicts over share allocation and the implementation of reduced limits over the next two decades to attempt to control and limit the harvest. As with the commercial fleet, the sport sector also set it's sights on the previously disdained pinks and chum as numbers of the high value species decreased. http://www.fish.bc.ca/files/R-39_EvolutionSalmonFisheries.pdf

There are many potential causes for the declines in salmon stocks including those I've summarized and many more possibilities including climate change, North Pacific salmon ranching and possibly even a new endemic virus that the newly adopted darling of the reactionary campaign claims to have found.  To ignore any or all of them and suggest that the blame must lie with salmon farms is to ignore the realities of the situation. It betrays a lack of understanding of the biological dynamic of salmon and a lack of objectivity in analyzing the problem. It is for that reason that i suggested you educate yourself in the biology of both the fish and the environment.


cont'd
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absolon

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #597 on: January 12, 2012, 12:06:40 AM »

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Really?  You think I need a biology degree to understand that farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the environment is not good science?

You don't need a degree in biology but you need some knowledge, some common sense, some objectivity and some willingness to listen and consider what you hear.

There are very good reasons why Atlantic Salmon were selected as the primary species for culture. The primary one is that they are not Pacific Salmon, and because of that, have some major differences in disease susceptibility. The benefit that offers is that many pathogens that may cause outbreaks in farms are pathogens that are not troublesome to Pacifics and thus will have minimal effect on the stocks. It also means that they cannot successfully breed with Pacifics. That allows BC to evade the two factors that have caused the greatest damage to wild salmon stocks in Norway, Scotland and even Eastern Canada where the cultured species is also the native species. The import protocols have prevented the importation of any non-native pathogens and the imported Atlantics have not established any successful breeding populations on this coast even though there have been escapes just as they couldn't after all the attempted introductions up to a century ago. An understanding of biology and farm/environment interaction would have helped you to see that.

There are environmental outputs from everything including yourself. That fact in itself is meaningless. It is the volume and nature of those discharges that need to be examined to evaluate their harm or harmlessness. What you call "environmental outputs" is primarily feces, a biodegradable product that actually forms food for other species. It is well dispersed by the currents and tides so that concentration remains very low and disappears when sites are fallowed. There will also be a component of uneaten feed, but it will be minimal because of it's cost to the farms and the waste minimizing feeding technology in use and it will degrade to elemental materials as well. There will be a very small chemical component from farm use chemicals; the concentration will be very low because of dilution and the need to keep the farm environment habitable by the fish. There will on occasion also be a very small medication component. It will consist of only that small portion of food not eaten.; medication is delivered to fish in feed and when eaten, is metabolized by the fish in order that it may enter the blood stream and serve it's function. Since the amount of medication fed to fish is very small, the residuals in the environment will be minuscule. The fact of those discharges to the environment has nothing to do with good science. Evaluating the effect of those discharges is where science comes in, and science does indeed come in, banning those substances that are harmful and allowing those that aren't.

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The problem is that they should never have been allowed in the first place.  Now that there are here, the argument seems to be that we will need to see the collapse of wild fish stocks and the proof that it was caused by the farms before we will stop farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment.

The argument is that there must be some direct evidence that farms are causing the declines in the wild stock. Any special interest group can go around demanding whatever changes they see fit and unless there is some consistent criteria applied to evaluating those demands, the world will devolve to anarchy and chaos. Fortunately, there is a consistent criteria applied and that is the requirement to substantiate that the changes are
required and will accomplish the stated goals. The only burden placed on those that would eliminate fish farming is that they substantiate the need to do that with facts.

If the reactionaries were able to provide that inarguable proof, it would have been done. They've been trying to do it for thirty years and have been unable to find the linkage. Neither has anyone else, and science has been looking. As a result, the campaign has become focused on revoking the industry's social license through an extended campaign of selective presentations of fact in hopes of swaying public opinion just as you have done in your post. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it doesn't magically become true.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:12:20 AM by absolon »
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absolon

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #598 on: January 12, 2012, 12:27:57 AM »

How is a camera going to stop the feed from being lost?  You cannot make a fish eat a pellet that has fallen through the pen by taking a picture of it.  Catching it on camera will not not make the fish more efficient at eating the food that is dropped in the water.  All the camera does is show them how much they are losing so they can adjust how much they feed them (amount distributed - amount wasted = amount consumed, so if they figure 100,000 salmon need 1000 kg of feed and 5% is falling through, then they need to drop in 1053 kg.), and so they can accurately document the costs of the feed and the amount consumed (amount consumed + amount wasted = cost of feed). Are they collecting this wasted food and redistributing it? No.  It is being distributed directly into the surrounding ecosystem where it is being consumed by other organisms.


The cameras do not record waste. They observe fish behavior; so long as the fish are eating, feed is supplied. Thousands of fish in a pen are very efficient eaters, not much gets by when feeding is controlled. No farm can afford to feed 5% extra. Waste is minimal, biodegradable and becomes an input to the food web.

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absolon

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #599 on: January 12, 2012, 12:39:37 AM »

I am still waiting to hear "good" arguments why open net Atlantic salmon farms should be allowed in BC.

I'm still waiting to hear good reasons why they should not.
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