Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Gooey]

I would like to clarify one things for all those that think flossing is legal...IT IS NOT!  My friend got a $200 ticket at the tamahi for bonking a flossed coho.  Its a matter of SELECTIVE enforcement by dfo.

ANyone who thinks flossing is legal needs to wake up and smell the coffee...flossing is snagging and snagging is illegal. 

My favorite analogy is speeding...if every time you broke 90km on the #1, you got a $200 speeding ticket, no one would speed.  Fact is, enforcement is pretty lacks on the #1 and many people often travel 120km+  but I would have to say you're a moron if you think doing 120 on the #1 inst breaking the law. 

[Psaromania]

This is one of the most intelligent threads on this topic I have ever read!! I like the suggested reg changes, etc. Well done guys. I usually just lurk on this forum but felt compelled to contribute tonight.

Now my two bits.

Chris, the next generation of anglers will learn techniques and ethics from their parents/guardians/mentors, etc. If fishing is a metaphor for life as a whole (which it is) then we have a responsibility to the future generations to EDUCATE - not PROHIBIT. Parents that drag their kids to the Fraser just to increase their daily quota are setting a terrible example -notwisthstanding the techniques used.

We also need some politicians with nutz to make decisions based on scientific facts, i.e. listen to the biologists not the lobbyists. Lets spend some of our tax dollars and install some underwater cameras at the popular bars so we can put this flossing debate to rest once and for all.

I'll get off the soap box now. Good night.

[chris gadsden]

Chris usually I agree with most things you say but I have to take exception here...your definition of "what is sports angling" might differ from other peoples....doesnt make yours, or Roderick Haig Brown's, or any one elses more "right" than others.  I think its a little too gray of an area to be talking blacks and whites.  Im not saying flossing is right or wrong either...just that its legal and people are going to do it.  Besides, if you'd read the topic starter, Im not posing a question about whether flossing is right or wrong, save that for the "should flossing be shut down" topic   

Thanks for the post. I know and accept that on this topic my statements will not always be well received by a number of members of this forum but I have to state them. I have been there since this sockeye thing started. As I have said  numerous times before I was one of the directors of the FVSS that lobbied DFO and got sockeye open along with freshwater opportunities for pinks and chums as well. This was after we got the retention of adult chinook open again after a few years of closure in the early 1980's. If you are interested, for the history of the FVSS go to an article I wrote a few years ago on the Fraser Valley Salmon Society web site.

When I see what now happens on the Vedder, Chehalis and other rivers as well as the Fraser where this method  is now rampant for all species of salmon including steelhead I would be remiss if I did not raise the alarm bells to where sports angling has gone and is going.

Is there a change needed (solution) to this flossing phenomena as this thread asks, I say yes, unfortunately I have not thought of one at this time, one that would be accepted by many people or by those in business that now do so well financially.

One thing I do know it has changed what fishing used to be about and I have to state my opinion as unpopular as it may be. Sorry.

[DBM]

I'm with you Chris.  I was fortunate enough to have excellent role models when it comes to fishing, especially my grandfather (avid fly fisherman).  I've aimed to do the same with my kids and I'll be damned if they participate in the sockeye gong show anytime soon.

[fishfinder]

A friend of mine put it this way:

Fishermen and the tackle shops are hooked on this fishery like heroin junkies/pushers.  They know it’s bad/wrong, but they can’t quit. The former needs the fix and the latter loves the money. There is no easy fix. A person  that really wants to quit will walk away from it, but on his own timetable. And once he walks away he will clearly see what this epidemic has done to his neighbourhood.

[buck]

Fishfinder,
     Truer words have never been spoken.!

[pinkwool]

Every year with Sockeye season comes this flossing debate. Why? Why the opponents of this fishery are so unsatisfied with it? Do you guys want to close it and go back to old days where indians were the only ones taking the fish and everyone else would go and buy fish from them? Is that what you want? What is wrong with catching two fish per day, bringing it to your family and enjoy the taste of nature we are lucky to share. If those arguing are so eager to protect the fish for future generations, then you are fighing the wrong enemies. Go after the REAL threats to salmon survival: logging companies, commercial and native fisheries. These were the ones responsible for making all the fishery mess we have (actually NOT have so many of it left).
I see some outsiders making some games here. Divide sport fishers, make them fighing with each other, so no attention come to REAL bad players. So far there is only one fishing law here - the REGULATIONS and there was a reason why they are in place and it's the only fishing law every sports fisherman should abide. All those etics talks are just waste of energy. If you want to preserve the salmon for your kids then organize together and point your efforts just into that area.

[2:40]

Pinkwool, the debate never surrounded the impacts of recreational angling. The debate is deeper than how many fish we're catching. I point out less doesnt make right though. Is it ok to sneak a just few bucks out of the cash register but wrong to steal the whole thing?

As to my opinion of this topic, I ask why are we asking these questions now? Shouldnt we have lobbied for this FIRST instead of going snagging and then realizing we have uncovered several problems here and need to regulate it?

We complain that FN started using drift nets without approval and that drift nets were not part of FN fishing techniques (or something to that effect)

But here we are, snagging fish, snagging being something that should never be seen in sport angling.

I say we could very easily be little pots calling the kettle black.

I guess it comes back to "Do you guys want to close it and go back to old days where indians were the only ones taking the fish and everyone else would go and buy fish from them?" mentality which is difficult to debate. The true spirit and meaning of sport angling to which myself and many others try to preserve is somewhat lost on the ones willing to blindly follow the 'it's legal', 'the resouce can handle it' and 'the FN are catching them so why can't I' ideals.

Sport anglers do not have the luxary of catching fish when ever they please. Sadly, sockeye are more of a challenge, but does a challenge give any sport angler the right to throw all to the wind and start snagging? Fishing is called fishing and not catching for a reason. I think we've lost sight of what fishing is or supposed to be when we bend the rules and damage a great recreation just to get some fish on the BBQ.

Personally, I dont think there's room for harvest and sport angling. It's either one or the other. But being realistic and seeing what's going on, the only option could be to try and implement what's being talked about here.

A question though, does it stop here? Or do guys, who can VERY easily use the same arguement guys give to floss sockeye, try to use these ideals on the vedder the next time it blows out or if the water gets gin clear and the steelhead are tight lipped?

Good discussion here. Glad you guys brought it up and are exploring options.


And kudos to Chris Gadsden and Fishfinder. Excellent words. 

[Steelhawk]

I respect some notable members' opinion on fishing. But we have to be careful to impose on others what you think fishing should be. It is not universally accepted that fishing has to be done the way a purist 'sport' fisherman wants it done. To impose such ethics on others who may have a different upbringing or background is to assume a 'holier than thou' attitude on fishing. What was fishing intended to be anyway in the old tradition of human history? It was to provide food and to have fun doing it. The sockeye fishery is a food fishery, and the method is effective and allowed by DFO. Many fishermen will take this fishery as that, and proceed to harvest their food fish for the enjoyment of their families. There is nothing wrong with that.

As for how a fish has to to be caught, there are as many methods practised in the world as there are many species out there. We don't catch smelt with a hook, nor use a fishing rod for eels, lobsters or crabs. Some fish have to trapped. Rod has an interesting write-up last year on ethics, and I remember an interesting method used in Japan for a fish in which they use another fish of the same species as a mating bait to get the target fish.

Sockeye fishing is the way it is because the current method is the most effective method allowed by DFO. Lets just take it for what it is. By the way, not all sockeyes are flossed. If you truely bounce your presentation by slowly releasing your line instead of holding your line, you will find sockeyes can be properly hooked inside the mouth. With the current clearer water, fish should be able to see a slowly presented small wool and bite it just as they do in the Vedder. But it may not be the fastest way and you will lose many more betties (thus polluting the river more), and even with this slow-down presentation there are still flossed sockeyes, because there are just too many of them going through.

Many fishermen like me came from background where people starve to death in famines. Your upbringing is not necessary the same upbringing of every one else. Mother nature (or God for those of us religious ones) has given us this bounty which benefit many life forms besides just us humans. These life forms do not turn their back on such bounty, nor should we humans, provided that we do not abuse such bounty by threatening their species survival. If we fish legally and take these bounty to benefit our love ones, or to needy friends, why should we be crowned with so many 'sins' for breaching some one's ideals for fishing and whatever justifications one puts behind those ideals. Perhaps those ideals should be applied more to true sport fish like steelhead with much more conservation concern than the sockeye.

I personally want sockeye daily quota to go higher, at least like the tidal one. The high cost of gasoline is already making many former sockeye fishermen stay home and be happy to buy their needs via their 'native' connection. This contributes more to FN poaching for more salmon and this is the true problem to the fishery in terms of conservation. Sockeye fishing, by the way, is also quite unpredictable for the weekenders. Many complain slow fishing due to too many nets in the river, and the days of old when you could catch your limit in 15 minutes or two casts seem to be gone forever. I propose that DFO should time their opening of the net fleets to not wipe out weekend fishermen. To do this repeatedly will encourage more people quitting and buying from the natives. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

[Gooey]

Before I say much more get into it, I thought I would start by saying that I floss the fraser sockeye, I am less supportive of flossing springs on the fraser (outside of sockeye) and I belive we should have ZERO tolerance for flossing on any other clear running river where fish will bite. 

Now that I have said that, one point the pro flossing crowds seem to avoid here is the degridation of other sports fisheries because of flossing.  We have all had someone walk in and ruin a run by bombing a warry steelhead with a bouncing betty, we have all lost float gear because some beak with 50lb braid snagged up in the middle of your favourite drift, and we all know a BBer and a float fisher can't really work a run side by side because of the different "drifts" used.  There is no doubt in my mind that BBing is degrading sports fishing on a variety of other rivers throughout the province.  For me this is the true "minus" I see in the sockeye fishery.  People learn to floss on the fraser and then take it too the vedder, chehalis etc. 

Yes BC is a resource based province, but I would like to think the clear cut logging of yesteryear is a thing of the past and selective logging or less environmentally damaging processes have now been developed.  I think thats where the the sockeye fishery is...in fresh water, its in its infancy and I think people may look back at each one of us and think collectively we turned into a bunch of barbarians.  20 years ago no one trolled sockeye in the chuck...they didn't bite! Opps we found out we were wrong...they do bite...lets go troll them.  Hey after we can't troll them anymore what happens?!?  Lets see how we can hook them in fresh water...thats the process we ar ein now. Bottom bouncing the fraser is relatively recently (8-10 years now i would guess).  We haven't learned what (if anything) socs will bite in fresh water, BUT we  have learned that sockeye can be flossed. 

This fishery is in its infancy and I think there is a lot of room for this fishery to evovle and become something better than what it is today.   All I can tell you is that if the sockeye fishery doesn't evolve and we don't see some improvements then I think I would rather see it disappear.  It is a 4 week (give or take) binge we afford ourselves once a year, but as others have pointed out, the binge for some becomes a year long addictions which ruin other fisheries the rest of the year.



     

[2:40]

Good post and well thought out Gooey. 

But we have to be careful to impose on others what you think fishing should be.

True, but you also have to be careful you dont loose the meaning and character of fishing (or anything for that matter) by being too liberal and not sticking to some of the key and core values of the sport.

No one is telling you to use a centre pin reel, certain types of waders/gear/line/hooks or to wear a Maple Leaf hat. If so, I think you'd have more of a point.

The problem with this snaggery, and Gooey touched on it several times, is that it brings in a new aspect of fishing that is detrimental to the quality and health of the sport in many ways.

Snagging should not be something one includes in angling like it is now and how you've argued it to be. There HAS to be a line someplace, and Im sorry, but I think a lot of people crossed it when they started to snag fish and to justify and defend it.

The 'law' and 'harvest' means nothing when you look at how many guys snag other systems and so forth (I wont go on with all the other problems). This is what Im talking about.

If you feel "Im holier than thou" because of choices you made, well, dont blame me! 

[marmot]

Doesnt anybody read the initial post when replying to a thread???  If you want to start your own "is flossing wrong" thread, go ahead, its been done to death! 

I don't disagree with you Chris...I don't think that flossing is really fishing, but I'm not talking about that.  Im really only trying to get at the ethics of releasing snagged fish when youre "harvesting" them.

Lets try again with another scenario then....youre flyfishing Cutthroat on a local stream with a healthy fish population.  (lets just SAY its healthy for sake of argument, i dont want a "cutthroat are in decline" debate!!)  You hook one, kill it.  You keep fishing but foul hook the next 5...for some reason they are slashing at this fly and invariably getting dorsal snagged.  You think "surely the next one won't snag up"....because statistically speaking it shouldnt.  So....should you have kept the second fish , snagged or not, and headed home?     Now, some of you guys will want to turn it into a "fast stripping" is wrong debate  but please recognize its not about stripping technique or flossing or whatever, its JUST about the ethics of the snagging regs.  Please try to stick to that and it will probably generate some discussion we havent seen 100x before.

And just for the record, id NEVER bonk a cutty!

[Gooey]

"But we have to be careful to impose on others what you think fishing should be".

Frankly, if we as a society didn't impose our thoughts on each other through laws and regulations, it would be anarchy - literally!  We all have a duty to society to maintain a set standard - the sockeye fishery is below that base minimum in my opinion .  Back to my example from above, I know there must be a crust old logger out there somewhere that would say F*** the environmentalists and clear cut that whole dam mountain.

Soceity can't cater to the lowest common denomonator nor can they cater to the high...usually the accepted point is somewhere in the middle. 

There will always be someone that thinks the stocks are strong enough no matter what and thinks that its their god given right to go out and kill a fish any way possible (retaining snagged fish is already a common problem on many rivers without flossing clowding the air).  With the general acceptance of flossing, our society of recreational fisher is lowering its standards (lets face it, flossing is snagging).  Maybe there is a hill that should be clear cut (like a pine infested forest) and maybe there is a run (like fraser sockeye) where flossing is acceptable, but there are definitely areas where it is not acceptable.  My  issue is that more and more people don't know where that line is and if they don't know where the line is, DFO needs to set it for them.

I think I can talk for 2:40 in saying that if everyone acknowledged where the line is, the fraser floss fest would be much more acceptable beast.

[liketofish]

The point is that people are fishing legally under the law. Flossing is acceptable way by DFO. Why should others think that they are holier and more above the law and impose their humiliating view on others who are fishing under the law?    The real danger of anarchy is that some are trying to read more of DFO laws that even COs don't think a problem, and impose their liberal and demeaning view on others by using mass media like internet. The consequence is not in fines, nor stopping the sockeye fishery, but stereotyping and piting one group against another.

The Fraser flossing is not going away. It is a reality. The more sensible way to give peace to the anti-flossing camp is to have DFO reg restrict leader length on the smaller system.

[2:40]

The point is that people are fishing legally under the law. Flossing is acceptable way by DFO.

Quite frankly, the law doesnt hold much water in this debate. It's also legal for an older man to have relations with a 14 year old girl. Legal? Yes. Does any one support this or try to justify it? Does anyone think this is right? Laws mean nothing and there are plenty of laws out there that are garbage.

Back to the topic of regulating this gong show. I think this flossing should be removed and regs reworded enough even though when you look at the regs as they are now, really, you guys are fishing illegally. "Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited." Good for you that someone discovered a way to snag the fish in the mouth so the sections of the regs that says "...other than the mouth" makes it a grey enough area for those inclined. But it's still snagging. Why else are you guys using long leaders unless you are INTENDING to snag? Funfish, if these fish can be tempted to bite with shorter leaders and slower presentation, why aren't you doing it? Rodney might have hit the nail on the head here with the 'expectation' this snagging has produced. Guys want the easy way and even the admission that this fish will bite given the chance but they still continue to snag anyway is a classic example.

But it may not be the fastest way...(to tempt a bite)

All this garbage about harvest, collecting bounty is irrelevant. Sport angling developed as it is to the challenge of angling (getting a BITE!!) and catching a bonus. Thing is, is that anglers have and easily will catch enough fish for themselves and family without snagging one fish. No one is telling anyone they cant harvest a fish here!!! It happens very easily if you give it a chance! Why do I get labled as a elitist now just because I still fish the way Ive always fished and other's have made a CHOICE to snag?  I feel that these excuses applied to this flossing/harvest or what have you possibly accounts to pure laziness and greed in my books. Those two things, applied to pretty well anything in the world or life only will result in a total mess.

Snagging, as defined in the regulations was put in place not only for management reasons, but also because sport anglers support it as snagging isnt fishing. Who wants to watch a guy using a weighted hook snagging fish in the Vedder River? With flossing, the intent is the same and thus, it has no place in angling, unless, of course, you want to change sport angling. I dont know about other people, but I liked sport angling the way it was before snagging/flossing became accepted. This is why the reguations need to be reworded to define this flossing as what it is; snagging and put it in with the section in the regulations that defines "Snagging (foul hooking)".

Another well worded post, Gooey. Id sure like to find the line here as it is pretty scary when it's pretty obvious that no line seems to exist at this time. Sure, there seems to be a 'harvest line' but that line is far in the distance and there is a lot of things one will have to trample on and destroy even before they get close enough to cross that particular line.