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[marmot]

Before I pose this question I'm making a couple of assumptions...so please hear me out.  The assumptions Im making are that:

1.  Flossing is a legal way to catch sockeye salmon, and people have fun doing it.
2.  People really DON'T like to foul hook fish, but make an exception if by chance they manage to hook a fish in the mouth.
3.  People stop fishing after their two fish.

I dont want to start a debate about the ethics of flossing on its own...I just want to pose a question that flossing for salmon inevitably raises...   

Lets say you've caught one sockeye and are going for your second, and you back hook it instead of "face" hook it.  You bring it in with difficulty, and it is obviously exhausted.  There is a good chance this fish will not survive to make it to its spawning grounds, after having its slime coat disturbed it will be susceptible to bacterial infection and in its weakened state doesnt stand that much of a chance...now, the regs say you have to release this fish, so you do.  But is it really the best thing to do?  You keep fishing.  This time its in the tail...you have a short leader, must just not be your day.  This fish takes even longer to get in and is even more exhausted.  Its likely it will die, you think as you release it gently.  You finally mouth hook one and bonk it, and go home.  You've killed two fish and reduced the other two fishes chance of survival substantially. If you'd kept the first back hooked fish you'd have only killed two and the two you released would have a much better chance of survival. From a utilitarian standpoint, the ethics behind releasing a fouled fish don't make any sense.  In the age of "harm reduction" maybe DFO should consider a change to the regs in regard to the flossing fishery?  I will always abide by the regs, and I'll release any fish I foul hook, but it raises an interesting ethical question.  Whats more important...preserving the species or preserving our idealist response to snagging?  What do you think? 

[Gooey]

I touched on this in another post...creel counters always seem interested in how many fish you C&R'ed...why: because they factor in a mortality rate on C&Red fish.  Assuming people stop fishing after their get their 2 socs is LAUGHABLE (no offence to you) but its just not what I see on the bars...people want their springs, they think C&R is OK, etc I also diaagree with assumtion 2 - many people dont care HOW they hook a fish as long as they get to drag something up onthe beach.

The snagging that goes on on the fraser needs to be contained to the fraser.  No need to snag/floss fish that take roe, flies, jigs, spinners and spoon but we increasingly see flossing over run our smaller clear water rivers...inexcusable in my books. 

I would like to see the fraser sockeye run be a separate tag...maybe even a different licence.  Flossing needs to be separated from the "sports fishing" and a standard recreational liscence.  I think a large limit that could be taken all in one day would be great say 10-15 fish per individual (pedendant on recreational demand and run strength)...if the fishing is good, get your 10-15 fish and GO HOME.  If you get a spring in the mean time, lucky you, but I question whether the fraser should be open to flossing springs.  As well, I see no reason to release a belly hooked fish that probably will never spawn just to hook another one in the mouth...once again separate the fraser sockeye harvest from recreational fishing and some doors open up to how the fishery could evolve.

[weizen]

I will always abide by the regs, and I'll release any fish I foul hook, but it raises an interesting ethical question.  Whats more important...preserving the species or preserving our idealist response to snagging?  What do you think? 

I agree, last night we had to release a fish we snaged by the tail.  A tough fight to bring it in, and it will likely not survive, but regs say we have to release so we did.  In the flossing fishery, it doesn't matter where on the fish your hook snags, you should be allowed to keep it.  It would save more fish, and prevent the odd war on the river bank when someone keeps a foul hooked fish anyway and everyone else starts yelling at him.

[marmot]

Hey Gooey,

No offense taken.  I'm making those assumptions so that the argument makes sense... Basically, those assumptions are there to say "if you beleive that 1,2 and 3 are, or should be true, what do you think of this?"  I know as well as you do that there are alot of dirtbags down on the river who just dont care about the fishery or the environment in general as long as they get their way. I dont know about a 15 fish daily limit....that seems a little absurd unless youre running an orphanage.  A separate tag might be a good start...from some of the reports I read the guys catching sox would definitely be "getting their moneys worth" if you want to look at it that way.  At least then the ice is broken and it can be regulated apart from the "normal" salmon fishery.

[fishfinder]

How about these rule changes:

Separate fishing tag for sockeyes $25
Limit of 1 sockeye per day, 10 per year.
You must stop fishing after you hookland your first fish.
No C&R
You may not pass a rod to anyone else.

[Gooey]

marmot, I am suggesting a total of 15 fish per licence per year...let them take them all in one day if the fishing is good and then put your rod down until coho (or next sockeye season for all the beaks who only fish socks). 

[Pat AV]

I would like to see the following changes to the sockeye regs:

1) Hook size restriction 1/0 or smaller - 4/0 hooks are very hard on any by-catch fish such as steelies or coho

2) 2 and out - get your 2 sockeye and go home or bar fishing or to the skagit........ No flossing after 2 dead sox C+R dosent work in 20 dgree water with 4/0 hooks

3) Anyone keeping a limit of sockeye must have a non tidal salmon stamp and a fishing rod- too many times I have seen one guy kill 10 sockeye 2 for him, 2 for his wife, 2 for each of his neighbors kids that he rented for the day. If you want your kids limits of sockeye you should have to buy them fishing rods. As for licenses for kids I propose the following: any child under 16 who wants to fish in BC will recieve a free freshwater fishing licence so they can participate in good kids fisheries such as bobber and worm trout fisheries etc at no charge. If a parent decides their children need to be keeping salmon to fill the freezer with the parent can spring for a salmon stamp for the kid.

I also agree with previous peoples ideas on snagged sockeye and 15 a year quotas.

Pat

[Sterling C]

Here's my take:

I know some people have said some of these already on this thread but I've been saying this for years so technically they're copying my 

1. Ban Bottom bouncing (flossing) on all systems all year round with the exception of the sockeye opening.

2. Special sockeye tag is required. Limit of 2 sockeye per day. 10 per year. All fish must be tagged immediatly.  Once your daily limit is met you must cease flossing but you are still allowed to fish with other methods.

3. Rather than charging kids to have a salmon tag what I propose is a free licence  for kids aged 10-15. Any child may fish, however, you must have a licenece to be entiteld to a quota. Similar to adults, kids are also reuired to tag their fish.

4. If you are unlucky enough to loose you licence, you may have your licence replaced the usual way, however, you are not able to get a new sockeye tag for the year.

[Pat AV]

Biffchan wrote:

(3. Rather than charging kids to have a salmon tag what I propose is a free license  for kids aged 10-15. Any child may fish, however, you must have a licensee to be entitled to a quota. Similar to adults, kids are also required to tag their fish.)

I think in an ideal world where kids take their own rods to the river and catch their own sox this idea would be fantastic.The reality is many parents use their kids to keep more fish with MOST kids never even touching a fishing rod all day. At most all the child does is reel the fish in once it is hooked. In my eyes this is an abuse of the system that is too lax right now. Charging kids to keep salmon would hopefully slow this abuse down and at the very least give something back to this resource from the extra fish killed on behalf the children.

Pat

[DBM]

biffchan,

Why ban bottom bouncing?  It's not just for flossing you know.

[Sterling C]

biffchan,

Why ban bottom bouncing?  It's not just for flossing you know.

I know the difference hence I wrote:

1. Ban Bottom bouncing (flossing) on all systems all year round with the exception of the sockeye opening.

Thanks for taking the time to tune in.

[chris gadsden]

One of the main problems with this type of activity is the next generation in a lot of cases are now not learning what sports angling is all about.

Can you imagine what Robert Haig Brown would be saying about this if he was alive today.

One solution, if in your mind you think, just a little bit, that this is not a fair way to catch a fish, is not to do it. You may be like some of us, in the minority but all changes start somewhere.

[Ho whacker]

The flossing regs are fine the way they are. The reality is that the recreational fishery in almost any major salmon run does little damage to the overall population of fish(the big killers being commercial,native,water temp,ext...). What particular groups  deem is sport fishing and what is not sport fishing usually is not unanimous with all fishermen. Most people who want bodom bouncing to be banned just want to do so to try to make there rivers a little less crowded.I like eating salmon and to get the fish i want to eat i usually floss to get them .When i have fish in the freezer then i will "sport fish" not really caring if i get something that i can bonk or not .Personally if I'm fishing at a gong show like the Fraser,chehailus,or vedder i like to get my fish as quick as possible and get out.Anyways thats my 2 cents.

[marmot]

Chris usually I agree with most things you say but I have to take exception here...your definition of "what is sports angling" might differ from other peoples....doesnt make yours, or Roderick Haig Brown's, or any one elses more "right" than others.  I think its a little too gray of an area to be talking blacks and whites.  Im not saying flossing is right or wrong either...just that its legal and people are going to do it.  Besides, if you'd read the topic starter, Im not posing a question about whether flossing is right or wrong, save that for the "should flossing be shut down" topic   

[DBM]

biff chan,

Read your own quote over.

Ban Bottom bouncing (flossing) on all systems all year round with the exception of the sockeye opening

I'm sure I wasn't the only one who misread you and thought you were inferring bottom bouncing is synonomous with flossing.