Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: slaydown on August 10, 2014, 06:41:27 PM
-
Now that I got your attention I would like to voice an opinion.
There is a group of elitist fisherman on here who through their own ignorance spread nothing but negativity. I am so tired I the same thing year in year out. I'm going to say the infamous word FLOSSING and what it means to me. When stocks permit I love getting out on the mighty Fraser to bottom bounce,BUT I restrict this to the Fraser and the Fraser alone. I have been doing this since a young boy and hope to do it with my son one day. Although I have had a few negative experiences they are far outweighed by positive. Most people out are nice and friendly and there for the same reason to enjoy the outdoors and perhaps catch a fish.
Now here's a little background info on me. I fish like a mad man. I fish the ocean extensively, steelhead numerous rivers and fish lakes too. I catch salmon,trout, halibut,cod,prawns,crab,crayfish and the list goes on. Each fishery requires different methods of attack.
Here's some things I don't do. I will not target wild endangered or at risk species for catch and release. Why hook,play and stress a fish out just to release? Sturgeon, wild steelhead on the Thompson etc... But hey that's my opinion and I don't judge others that do, why? Because that would make me look like a self riotous loser. To each their own and as long as the powers that be say it's ok all the power to you. I know a lot of the elitist like to participate in a few of those fisheries.
I keep hearing the economic argument and how it doesn't make sense to drive all the way to get two sockeye. Well guys I just got back from an ocean fishing trip that cost 6 grand and you know what we brought back maybe 600 worth of fish. I'm not a mathematician but those numbers don't add up haha. It's not about money and when is it doing something you enjoy?
I don't want to single one guy out because there are many that like to push their negative agenda but Chris Gadsden can I ask you a question. When you hunt do you use a rifle and scope? Shooting an animal like that might not qualify as sporting. In your logic of sporting you should be using a bow and arrow. And you mentioned the natives dip netting in the rapids of the canyon? Although that may not be sporting to some I would love to be able to do that and fill my freezer. It sounds like a blast.
As for this fishery encouraging snagging on more fragile systems that is bunk. Losers will snag fish no matter what and I have found that positive information goes along way to some peoples ignorance. You trolls should just stay off the forum and keep your negativity to yourselves. Most guys on the river bottom bouncing are top rods that fish just like me but stay in the shadows because of you beaks. This is a BC resource that is abundant this year so let's all enjoy it, have fun and spread some positive energy. I know my post is somewhat negative so it counter to what I just said but this is something that needed to be addressed.
Now let the elitist floodgates open :)
Cheers.
-
3 posts, and this topic?
Smells like bait to me... :(
-
so.......did you get your 2 sockeye.
-
You trolls should just stay off the forum and keep your negativity to yourselves.
How ironic. Maybe you should learn to take your own advice.
-
How ironic. Maybe you should learn to take your own advice.
Oh no big fish came out of his cave watch out !
-
Bunk? I see it on the Stave and Vedder rivers, I have found betties and some what shorter leaders on smaller creeks that I will not mention on here. As for flossing do we really need twenty threads about the same thing? Bundle them together and put a warning label on them :) With that floss away :)
-
The topic as a whole for and against is just such a yawner... The horse has been beaten to a pulp.
And if you're trolling I'm sure you'll get some to bite, gets'em every time.
-
Now that I got your attention I would like to voice an opinion.
There is a group of elitist fisherman on here who through their own ignorance spread nothing but negativity. I am so tired I the same thing year in year out. I'm going to say the infamous word FLOSSING and what it means to me. When stocks permit I love getting out on the mighty Fraser to bottom bounce,BUT I restrict this to the Fraser and the Fraser alone. I have been doing this since a young boy and hope to do it with my son one day. Although I have had a few negative experiences they are far outweighed by positive. Most people out are nice and friendly and there for the same reason to enjoy the outdoors and perhaps catch a fish.
Now here's a little background info on me. I fish like a mad man. I fish the ocean extensively, steelhead numerous rivers and fish lakes too. I catch salmon,trout, halibut,cod,prawns,crab,crayfish and the list goes on. Each fishery requires different methods of attack.
Here's some things I don't do. I will not target wild endangered or at risk species for catch and release. Why hook,play and stress a fish out just to release? Sturgeon, wild steelhead on the Thompson etc... But hey that's my opinion and I don't judge others that do, why? Because that would make me look like a self riotous loser. To each their own and as long as the powers that be say it's ok all the power to you. I know a lot of the elitist like to participate in a few of those fisheries.
I keep hearing the economic argument and how it doesn't make sense to drive all the way to get two sockeye. Well guys I just got back from an ocean fishing trip that cost 6 grand and you know what we brought back maybe 600 worth of fish. I'm not a mathematician but those numbers don't add up haha. It's not about money and when is it doing something you enjoy?
I don't want to single one guy out because there are many that like to push their negative agenda but Chris Gadsden can I ask you a question. When you hunt do you use a rifle and scope? Shooting an animal like that might not qualify as sporting. In your logic of sporting you should be using a bow and arrow. And you mentioned the natives dip netting in the rapids of the canyon? Although that may not be sporting to some I would love to be able to do that and fill my freezer. It sounds like a blast.
As for this fishery encouraging snagging on more fragile systems that is bunk. Losers will snag fish no matter what and I have found that positive information goes along way to some peoples ignorance. You trolls should just stay off the forum and keep your negativity to yourselves. Most guys on the river bottom bouncing are top rods that fish just like me but stay in the shadows because of you beaks. This is a BC resource that is abundant this year so let's all enjoy it, have fun and spread some positive energy. I know my post is somewhat negative so it counter to what I just said but this is something that needed to be addressed.
Now let the elitist floodgates open :)
Cheers.
That's OK at 71 I have seen and heard it all, not offended at all. ;D
Read all my posts on this topic over the years, you most likely have and it will cover all your questions and remember it was Pete, I and a few others from the FVSS that got this activity going years ago, enjoy and you owe us a few Tims. ;D ;D
-
Oh and last post on this topic, for this year, back to the FF debate.
::) ;D ;D
-
Your post is self righteous. Yet you use it as a weapon in your post. Everyone is allowed their opinion, and we don't always have to agree. If you bottom bounce that's your choice, and we still dont have to like it. I have bottom bounced and caught a 20lb spring, I didn't know any better at the time. I see all of this helping the economy move along, lots of lost tackle... ;) I'm not going to hold BB against them though.
-
Most guys on the river bottom bouncing are top rods that fish just like me but stay in the shadows because of you beaks.
Could'nt of said it better. Thats why lots of people don't bother posting anymore. Just a waste of time and energy.
Just a reader and occasionally commenter now and thats all you get.
-
Being a newer rod, I hear the chilliwack used to open for cultus sockeye before the run size decreased. Has much talk been done about boosting the sockeye stocks for cultus or other system to reopen tributary fisheries for socks which could possibly amend and/or or alter the current regs on flossing?
-
Cultus Lake sockeye have never been open for retention.
-
I don't post when I go to Costco and buy Halibut. Why should these clowns post about flossed fish?
This forum is for fishing.
-
Just like all types of fishing, there are those that BB, do it right and IMHO don't snag. There are others that fish unethically. Granted, for BB, the number fishing unethically is probably higher than most other methods. I have seen unethical bar fisherman, fly fisherman, you name it, and plenty of unethical bottom bouncers. My family and I have refused to fish with people who we consider to be fishing unethically. Many on here like to group all BB together assuming everybody fishing like that is the worst, that we all condone everybody who bottom bounces and their methods, that we condone bottom bouncing with long leaders in any river. In my opinion, if someone goes to a smaller river and fishes using long leaders and the same method, they are idiots. Every fish, every system requires its own method. I grew up in Washington fishing the Nooksak, bottom bouncing with a little bit of pencil lead, a foot or two of leader with a dick night on the end. Coho and Chinook used to absolutely kill it. We have modified our methods for the Fraser but that is still how I enjoy fishing. I find bar fishing boring as all get out and would choose just about any other type of fishing before that.
The fact remains that in the dozens or hundreds of fish I have caught or our boat has caught over the last number of years, the number that are caught outside the mouth can be counted on one hand, a fact that all the self righteous on here haven't been able to match with saying we are snagging them. Or they say that we just happen to snag them in the exact same spot in the mouth 95% of the time.
-
As someone who just moved here in January,
I was looking for a new forum as the lake simcoe message board wont do me any good out here.
I check the site every day, fwr has given me the info to get out and enjoy the fishery that is 100% new to me.
I hooked into my first pacific coho, over a hundred cuttys and a couple nice bulls with info ive gained on here and am greatful because of it. FWR does a great job as being a online ambassador for fishing in the lower mainland.
I see both arguments and other than the garbage on the banks, I dont understand why this is such an issue on here. Garbage is synonymous with fishermen anywhere you go. If you floss go floss, if you dont then dont, but you guys on here preaching (both sides) are worse than tv evangelists. Catch your fish how you want to, within the legal regulations.
Basically I'm trying to say quit the crying and get back to enjoying the sport that we all love.
Tightlines,
Dale
-
whats a beak?
honestly, i'm not trolling..... I've heard that 'monicker' before... but not its definition.
-
Hook nose area.
-
hahaha. alright.......... ;D
-
whats a beak?
honestly, i'm not trolling..... I've heard that 'monicker' before... but not its definition.
A beak is a new, seasonal, or ignorant angler that really doesn't understand/care about the etiquette, and laws to do with fishing.
There's a great article on beaks on another forum, tells you in full detail and gives examples. It's a good chuckle, and well worth the read.
-
(http://i.imgur.com/53wHWgq.jpg)
-
Bunk? I see it on the Stave and Vedder rivers, I have found betties and some what shorter leaders on smaller creeks that I will not mention on here.
Agreed. Flossers have been on the Vedder and elsewhere for decades but it has really gotten prevalent in the last 5 years by my impression. It is a direct consequence of the sockeye fishery IMHO, as people bounce the Fraser in August and move right on to the Vedder in Sept/Oct though I don’t have any data to back it up other than observation.
Just like all types of fishing, there are those that BB, do it right and IMHO don't snag. There are others that fish unethically. Granted, for BB, the number fishing unethically is probably higher than most other methods. I have seen unethical bar fisherman, fly fisherman, you name it, and plenty of unethical bottom bouncers. My family and I have refused to fish with people who we consider to be fishing unethically. Many on here like to group all BB together assuming everybody fishing like that is the worst, that we all condone everybody who bottom bounces and their methods, that we condone bottom bouncing with long leaders in any river. In my opinion, if someone goes to a smaller river and fishes using long leaders and the same method, they are idiots.
That’s sometimes true but harsh and little unfair. Many people’s first salmon experience is flossing sockeye because it gets a lot of talk and can be very productive and is relatively easily learned. It’s not unreasonable for such anglers (ie inexperienced) to expect such methods to be perfectly acceptable to harvest salmon during any opening on any water. It’s hard to argue that too. Logically why is flossing sox on the Fraser OK but not for chum on the Vedder? Why cant any argument one can make to defend the practice on the Fraser also be made for other waters? To be fair, bottom bouncing is a legitimate technique while flossing is a subset of that, and it can take a bit of experience before the difference is evident.
Obviously one doesn’t *need* to floss on the Vedder, Stave, Chehalis etc but why is it frowned upon can be hard to understand by new anglers who haven’t yet recognized the subtleties of pursuing fish with the concept of ‘fair chase’ vs raking hooks across a fish’s (hopefully) face. Sure call me elitist but that is the crux of the debate.
I’d also point out that some other jurisdictions have recognized this as a problem and have taken steps with gear restrictions and regulations etc to try and curb flossing before it spreads even worse. If this is the course we are content to take in BC, then this is what we are going to get, a generation who don’t need to expand their toolbox of fishing techniques and taking that technique to any flow at any time and technically that’s their legal right as per the current regs. You can hardly expect otherwise; you reap what you sow.
-
That’s sometimes true but harsh and little unfair. Many people’s first salmon experience is flossing sockeye because it gets a lot of talk and can be very productive and is relatively easily learned. It’s not unreasonable for such anglers (ie inexperienced) to expect such methods to be perfectly acceptable to harvest salmon during any opening on any water. It’s hard to argue that too. Logically why is flossing sox on the Fraser OK but not for chum on the Vedder? Why cant any argument one can make to defend the practice on the Fraser also be made for other waters? To be fair, bottom bouncing is a legitimate technique while flossing is a subset of that, and it can take a bit of experience before the difference is evident.
Obviously one doesn’t *need* to floss on the Vedder, Stave, Chehalis etc but why is it frowned upon can be hard to understand by new anglers who haven’t yet recognized the subtleties of pursuing fish with the concept of ‘fair chase’ vs raking hooks across a fish’s (hopefully) face. Sure call me elitist but that is the crux of the debate.
I’d also point out that some other jurisdictions have recognized this as a problem and have taken steps with gear restrictions and regulations etc to try and curb flossing before it spreads even worse. If this is the course we are content to take in BC, then this is what we are going to get, a generation who don’t need to expand their toolbox of fishing techniques and taking that technique to any flow at any time and technically that’s their legal right as per the current regs. You can hardly expect otherwise; you reap what you sow.
It may be harsh and I might tone it back for someone that is new but you know there are plenty of people that know they are flossing, know there are ways to get the fish to hit, and just don't care.
-
Correct me if I'm wrong but unless the salmon is hooked in the mouth it's classified as snagging by our synopsis, however it is accepted and tolerated for the sockeye fishery. To see it carry over to other fisheries is upsetting. I'm an elitist because I don't floss?? Lol so be it. Although it's true flyfishers were probably the first flossers. Enjoy the fishery while it exists, I say, but keep the beak attitude elsewhere.
-
Correct me if I'm wrong but unless the salmon is hooked in the mouth it's classified as snagging by our synopsis, however it is accepted and tolerated for the sockeye fishery. To see it carry over to other fisheries is upsetting. I'm an elitist because I don't floss?? Lol so be it. Although it's true flyfishers were probably the first flossers. Enjoy the fishery while it exists, I say, but keep the beak attitude elsewhere.
Sockeye still have to be hooked in the mouth. Why would you think it was any different? People keeping fish hooked not in the mouth are poachers as they are keeping fish illegally. It is that simple.
And my beak comment meant on the inside of the mouth, straight up into the nose. So, unless you were directing that at flytech....
-
Exactly! No it was directed at OP
Flossing doesn't hook in mouth, but outside, so according to our regs it's snagging - an apparently accepted practice.
-
Exactly! No it was directed at OP
Flossing doesn't hook in mouth, but outside, so according to our regs it's snagging - an apparently accepted practice.
First, it depends on your definition of flossing because to a number of purists on this site, how I fish is also flossing because my leader is longer than they prefer and I am casting, not bar fishing. The fact that a great majority of my fish are hooked in the mouth doesn't phase them.
What would you rather be done? Ok, stop all the snaggers out there. Ideal but you need a lot more manpower than DFO or the gov't cares to spend. I know part of it is to deter people from snagging by not letting them keep their fish but you get a bunch of flossers out there, trying their best to catch a fish that is claimed to not bite, would you rather they catch 50 or 100 sockeye in order to catch 2 that miraculously the hook ended in the mouth. Of those 50-100, say half are caught not even near the head but near the tail or in the belly or dorsal fin and the fish is so exhausted by the time someone can get it in the chance of it surviving has gone way down, or would you rather they catch two in the side of the head and leave?
-
And so, round and round in circles we go...
I think we should just re-pin an old topic from 4-6 years ago, every August so that people can add the same things to it.
Again and again and again....
-
Dizzy yet?
-
Correct me if I'm wrong but unless the salmon is hooked in the mouth it's classified as snagging by our synopsis
The wording that defines snagging in the BC regs is somewhat vague:
' ... hooking a fish in any other part of its body other than the mouth."
It doesnt specifically define mouth as being inside, outside, around, etc. and it seems that fisheries officers don’t take issue with retaining fish hooked by the outside corner of the mouth or the maxillary, which suggests that either the regs never intended to require hooking inside the mouth, or the CO’s consider it ‘close enough’ to be compliant. Note how the wording requires no action on the fishes part. You actively going off and ‘hooking the fish’ is every bit as legitimate as the fishing coming over and ‘hooking itself’.
It’s interesting to look at other jurisdictions regulations as comparison.
Ie in Oregon the snagging regulation reads :
“Taking or attempting to take a fish with a hook and line in a way or manner where the fish is not enticed to voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth. Gamefish which are hooked other than inside of its mouth must be released immediately unharmed.”
Interesting how specific it is with requiring the fish be an active participant in the whole thing. From what I understand, that wording in addition to gear restrictions was put in place to specifically address flossing. No idea if it’s had the desired effect (if any) though…
-
And so, round and round in circles we go...
I think we should just re-pin an old topic from 4-6 years ago, every August so that people can add the same things to it.
Again and again and again....
Yup,
-
Yes DanL, the wording is interesting, so far as regs go, and some of our stately neighbours are evolving their regs. Ethically, flossing is snagging and we can dress it up all we want and discuss regs and opinions and openings but at the end of the day it is what it is - a meat fishery that's accepted and open to all with a license and a 12' leader. No problem. It's not sportsfishing if the fish doesn't bite, outer maxillary or fin is a moot point. Is it fun? Sure. Is it legal? Sure. That's why discussing it is a razor's edge. It's a differing of choice, of opinion. Mine is not to floss.
-
Sounds like TNA has unlocked the sockeye code!
Care to share with us your non flossing technique?
-
I think we should just re-pin an old topic from 4-6 years ago, every August so that people can add the same things to it.
I want to go back to the days when fly fishing was the only ethical way to fish and gear anglers almost believed it too! ;D
-
Sounds like TNA has unlocked the sockeye code!
Care to share with us your non flossing technique?
I can't describe it completely. It is a little red winged bobber (quarter inch long probably) with green yarn. Not the yarn you find in the stores though, knitting yarn and a specific color green that is hard to describe but sort of like pea green. The color matches the flash on the side of I believe sticklebacks in the ocean so if you can try and see what that looks like in the water, match that. A little bit more than the size of a pea. Can't be too much or too little. It has to be fished at just the right speed though. Too fast and you won't touch much of anything. Too slow and you won't get anything either. The weight should be enough that the weight picks up for just a little tiny bit but no more than about 30% of your drift and no less than about 5% or 10%. The weight picking up is just an indicator though as usually, if your drift is right, your bite will come the 20% of your swing before it picks up.
Of course, conditions change things. I just heard that one of the last times my dad went fishing, the guys using the same set up caught all kinds of sockeye but couldn't touch a Chinook which is unusual. One of the guys finally did, and then got three. They were all inside the sockeye instead of outside which is where they usually are. That required going through the whole drift and then letting it sit at the end of the drift, picking it up every so often so that it drifts a little further in. Said he had to worry about the anchor rope of the guy below them but he hooked three Chinook that way. Usually they are outside the sockeye but maybe with the numbers entering they are trying to avoid the sockeye and staying inside where the beach runner sockeye usually go.
Like I said before, we catch probably 95% of our fish straight up through the nose or straight down right in the middle of their mouth and there is very little doubt, the bigger Chinook will almost rip the pole out of your hand. Some of the bigger sockeye will too. The color of the yarn is very important though as off a couple shades and you won't get much of anything. We have done plenty of experimenting, where one guy will put on a different shade of green when there are tons of fish in the water and it is amazing how that one person won't catch anything and the others will catch multiple. It doesn't matter which person switches as we have done it in shifts and whoever doesn't have the right shade on, the bite disappears. It used to be a way of taking a little bit of a break from fighting fish back when the sockeye numbers were consistently through the roof.
Of course, there are days where the fish are not in a biting mood. The people flossing or snagging will still get their normal fish, but if a storm comes in or this year it was the horrible wind for a couple days, or if the nets have been in the water pounding them hard, we won't catch anything or not much. Go out on a day where the fish aren't freaked out over something though, and we will outfish the flossers/snaggers 10 to 1, 50 to 1, even 100 to 1 some days. Heck, back in the 90s I remember going to Grassy and there were days we would see 25 sockeye caught all day in all the other boats combined. And my dad and I would be out there, every second or third cast at most there was a fish. I lost count of how many times we would both have one on. We easily caught probably 150, so that was an entire stretch of boats that we outfished easily 6 to 1. I couldn't lift my arms the next day. We had guys anchoring right below us trying to figure out what we were fishing with and many that got pissed and went flying out of there giving us a little rattle. It amazed me that none had the courtesy of asking.
-
The sockeye c&r study found 18% of fish were hooked inside the mouth.
100% of the fish were flossed.
-
Wow. That's an interesting stat, Typhoon.
-
The sockeye c&r study found 18% of fish were hooked inside the mouth.
100% of the fish were flossed.
Interesting.
My sample size is large enough that I can say with quite a lot of certainty that our fish were not flossed then. Which leads me to believe that given the right conditions, sockeye will hit. It just requires extra work that a lot of people don't want to put into their fishing.
-
And your leader isn't crazy long? That's great, TNAngler! Years ago at a canyon creek mouth, I had sockeye 'mouth' a green dry fly consistently but they wouldn't devour it. Seemed more like a curiosity but who knows? A few others are trying new methods, too, and I wish them luck.
Either way, let's hope for a safe fishery for all involved. It can get hectic out there.
-
.
-
TNA, I think it would be beneficial for the sporting community for you to post a pic of the magic lure.
If you're not sure how to post you can email it to somebody to post.
How long is your leader? Can you explain the whole rig up from main line to hook?
-
If TNA's method works in the non- tidal, it should work in the tidal section. I bought some slow sink Bombarda floats from the UK and planned to give the tidal section a good try in 10 days or so when the fish are in the river in numbers. I don't quite know what to tie on the end of the line so TNA's method is as good a way to start as any. Let's get a picture of that rig.
'Quarter inch winged float'?? Is that a spin and glow?
-
Well, see, the issue is that I am in TN and all the rigs are in WA.
Ok, tri-swivel with home made round ball weight on one side (we fished Grassy and were using 1.5 oz, 2 was too heavy, 1 too light, when we used to fish spaghetti, it was faster, so it was a 2 most of the time but if the water was up it would take a 3 oz). On the other is some commercial net hanging line for about a foot with quarter inch size oakies on each side (this is to keep the sinker from destroying the line and also provide a little buoyancy to the line to keep it off the rocks). Probably 8-10 feet of leader. A red and white spin-n-glo like the one pictured here except small, probably half inch I guess, unless the water is horribly dirty and then this might need to go the next size or two up.
(http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/04/29/65/12/0004296512160_500X500.jpg)
Then a red bead and then two little round disks (I don't know where these come from) to keep the above from getting tangled on the hook and spinning the hook (if you lower it in the water and watch, the spin-n-glo should be able to spin and the hook should remain still.
On the hook is yarn probably between the size of one pea and two peas. This is the best match to the color that I could find on a quick search online.
(http://cdn3.craftsy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-03-04-at-4.21.59-PM.png)
Now, I know what is coming. 8 FEET OF LEADER!!!!!!! You are snagging them because you are flossing them. Except the numbers show that not to be true. Granted, if there are a lot of fish in the river and you know what you are doing, you are able to feel the line going through the mouth sometimes. Don't set the hook. Even if it seems you have a fish on after that, just let it get off which it will do with a quick head shake (that hasn't happened in the last two years to me in the 10 days per year I was up there but my dad has said with some of the large groups coming in now it is happening sometimes). The length of the leader is more a result of where the fish wish to strike and protecting the gear. If you are in shallower water, shorter leader is fine because the lure should be closer to the bottom and you won't likely won't have huge rocks. Given we are usually fishing in 10-15 feet of water where we are casting, that spin-n-glo starts out about 8 feet up, halfway to the bottom, and slowly sinks as it goes downstream so that when you get to the sweet spot it is at the right depth. We used to use significantly shorter leader, like 2-3 feet and still caught fish so if you feel better doing that, feel free. The reason we went a little longer is because with 2-3 feet of leader, your hook and spin-n-glo bang hard into too many rocks and after about half hour of fishing your hook is very dull and you go through 3 or so spin-n-glos in the course of a day, at least we did up at spaghetti (may it rest in peace, I miss that bar). With the longer leader, hooks only need to be sharpened a couple times a day and you don't destroy the spin-n-glo (although the fish might do their own damage to it)
You have to make sure the spin-n-glo spins good. The water can't be too slow. It also seems to only work on rocky bottoms although not too big of rock as the sinker will get stuck too often. I don't know if the fish prefer rocky bottom or if the sand slows the sinker down or speeds it up so that the rig doesn't fish right. I've never done well on sandy bottom though so I think it is a fish preference.
It also doesn't seem to catch the really small sockeye. They will hit it but they won't get hooked. However, it often hooks the large sockeye, 10-14 pounders and they hit it hard.
And HOLD ON! More than once my wife has about had the pole taken out of her hands because she wasn't ready but she didn't grow up fishing like this. I had the "hold on to the pole right and tightly all the time" pounded into my head since I could walk pretty much.
-
And your leader isn't crazy long? That's great, TNAngler! Years ago at a canyon creek mouth, I had sockeye 'mouth' a green dry fly consistently but they wouldn't devour it. Seemed more like a curiosity but who knows? A few others are trying new methods, too, and I wish them luck.
Either way, let's hope for a safe fishery for all involved. It can get hectic out there.
I think part of it is the color is something they are interested in but more than that, it is moving fast enough they see the flash and instincts take over. If they have time to think about it, it doesn't seem like this works. As the water gets clearer you have to go smaller (on the yarn but never less than the size of a pea). It has to be instinctual, flash of green like food in the ocean, strike. Not "what is that green thing coming down? Looks like food. Meh, I'm not hungry. I'll just move over here."
-
Great post, TNAngler. Thank you. I'll bet a few folks will try it out!
-
I'm just trying to help. If you don't like the method I fish with because the leader is too long, your objection is noted. If I am able to help one person actually catch sockeye (and a good share of chinook too) without having to rely on snagging the way I see too many people fishing for them, I will consider it a win. My dad has always been more secretive and shared our methods with friends which I can understand to some extent. However, if everybody started fishing with our method and caught sockeye because they hit and flossing/snagging wasn't needed anymore, the Fraser would be a better place to fish. Although I think there are some people that still would set the hook multiple times per cast. If done right, you don't even have to set the hook fishing like this because they hit it hard enough they are hooked already. With the barbless hooks though and out of instinct we do set the hook though.
Also, you do have to know enough what you are doing. My wife was fishing with the same set up but the whole setting the hook and keep the line tight she doesn't have enough practice at and she didn't actually catch anything this year (she caught like a half dozen sockeye last year before the water temp rose and things went to pot). She had on probably 5 sockeye and one chinook but none of them for very long. This isn't a miracle lure. It is still fishing, not catching, although there were days back in the 90s where it seemed like catching.
-
You are flossing them, just not very well.
Having the cookie I'm front of the hook means that it to go through the fishes mouth before the hook. This results in lots of flossed opportunities simply bouncing off the maxillary or you give the fish enough time to move and spit the line.
-
Please typhoon, for the sake of his followers, don't dispute or discourage the teachings of the gifted one. ;D ;D
-
I'll be the first to admit that I can't say for certain that I know what is happening in the murky depths of the Fraser. And I have to hand it to you TNAngler, I admire your attention to detail. Nor do I have an issue, ethical or otherwise, with flossing/snagging. I have proudly flossed in the past, and would do so again, however, in recent years my desire for a quality angling experience has overshadowed my desire to feast on sockeye.
Having said all that, it doesn't add up. Say you have a hook travelling downstream at x miles per hour, and a sockeye travelling upstream at y miles per hour. In the murky Fraser, I don't see how a fish has any time to react to a piece of wool that is coming at it at x+y miles per hour. Maybe the fish are intentionally snapping at your rig, but given the visibility and speed of approach, I just don't see it...
That being said, I don't have an issue with bottom bouncing and flossing/snagging/harvesting sockeye. And like I said, I'll be the first to admit that I can't say for certain that I know what is happening in the murky depths of the Fraser. But from this armchair, I can't see it happening.
-
There's no doubt in my mind that those fish are being flossed.
I don't understand how you could think otherwise, you're fishing 8-10' leaders next to guys fishing long leaders but you have a small spin n glo on while the guy below you has a corkie. You're both bouncing the same water.
I think typhoon is on track saying that the spIn n glo is probably causing the hook to bounce around the outer maxillary before settling.
I floss sockeye. Every sockeye season I struggle with myself not to go out. My old man taught me to fish and we've fished side by side for almost 30 years. The days of navigating winter "goat" trails to the river for steelhead are done for him, now all he wants to do is get his sockeye, and maybe some fishing in the boat for coho in the Vedder. A lot of guys here slam it and say harvest fishery blah blah, ya it is. And I enjoy going out there with my old man. Id pay double what I do for the chance to go fishing with him before buying from the commies.
-
Thanks to TNAngler I now know that with my spey rod, 15 feet of T-17 and the 24 inch leader with the lime green wool on the hook I am not flossing and they are all biters. ;D I just needed some one to verify my results. ;D ;D ;D
-
You guys are unbelievable.
--You are flossing them, just not very well. --
Give me a decent day where the fish aren't spooked and I would out fish any person out there with 20 feet of leader and whatever they want on their hook.
--Having said all that, it doesn't add up. Say you have a hook travelling downstream at x miles per hour, and a sockeye travelling upstream at y miles per hour. In the murky Fraser, I don't see how a fish has any time to react to a piece of wool that is coming at it at x+y miles per hour. Maybe the fish are intentionally snapping at your rig, but given the visibility and speed of approach, I just don't see it... --
They don't have much time to react but they have some. We can see what, two feet? What can the fish see? More than two feet for sure. Four feet? Five? Ten? How much time do they need to react? Someone throws a ball at your face, how quickly can you move out of the way or try and catch it? I bet even two feet away you would move slightly, and their reaction time is much quicker than ours full body wise.
--I don't understand how you could think otherwise, you're fishing 8-10' leaders next to guys fishing long leaders but you have a small spin n glo on while the guy below you has a corkie. You're both bouncing the same water.--
Oh, ok, so someone throwing a spoon next to a guy throwing the exact same spoon both get the same number of hits? Or one guy fishing for pinks with a pink spinner while another fishes with silver. They are fishing the same water with the same lures. If what you said was true, you would expect them to catch the same number of fish that we do. Or if the spin n glo helps hook them better somehow, at least hook the same number of fish. Granted, some of those guys are setting the hook a whole lot, maybe they are just missing that many fish in which case my numbers are off.
--with the lime green wool on the hook I am not flossing and they are all biters.--
I'm not saying at all that if you fish with the right equipment that you still aren't flossing/snagging. People can floss/snag while fly fishing or pretty much any other method out there. I would say if you are catching almost all of your fish in the inside of the mouth that you should be able to sleep fine at night.
--Having the cookie I'm front of the hook means that it to go through the fishes mouth before the hook. This results in lots of flossed opportunities simply bouncing off the maxillary or you give the fish enough time to move and spit the line. --
Which would then result in fewer fish caught. Even more still because they would feel the spin n glo go through their mouth and then they will turn to escape it so you would need them to turn toward the hook, not away from it. And often, if they turn away, they slap at whatever offended them, so you would then expect some caught in the mouth and some caught probably near the tail or behind the dorsal fin or at least feel something as the lure gets slapped and then have nothing.
My method is out there. People are free to try it and hopefully they have better results than they used to have. Done right, I feel it can increase people's sockeye and chinook catch significantly. If you don't like it, I have to wonder why. A lot of people on here complain about all the people flossing. If it is even remotely possible that there is a method to actually entice them to bite, why would you not be for at least trying it or if you are too high and mighty, at least allowing others to improve the way they fish? No explanation given explains the extremely high percentage caught inside the mouth, nor the extreme difference in fish caught (weather front moving through or fish spooked from nets, our catch drops to almost nothing while normal flossers don't change, normal fishing day, a lot more fish on this set up). You can hand wave all you want but just because people don't fish the way you like doesn't mean what they are doing is wrong.
-
Just because I respectfully doubt your claim that the fish are striking at your rig, doesn't make me "unbelieveable."
Obviously you are in no mood for a constructive, respectful exchange.
Cheers.
-
Just because I respectfully doubt your claim that the fish are striking at your rig, doesn't make me "unbelieveable."
Obviously you are in no mood for a constructive, respectful exchange.
Cheers.
Sorry, I shouldn't have put you in there. Your post was mostly respectful and just questioning. Some of the others are on their tirade where unless you fish their way you are obviously doing something wrong. Constructive, respectful exchanges I am definitely up for. You can't tell me that most of the other responses were anything close to respectful. I'm presenting an alternative that in my mind works and is at least better than a number of the people out there fishing for sockeye.
Just the fact that so many are hooked in the mouth I would think people would be happy with this as an alternative so that there are fewer people out there setting the hook on anything and hooking multiple fish in the belly or back where the fish is horribly exhausted before they can get it in enough to free it. Doubt I understand, hate and ridicule I have little respect for. I am sorry for including you in that post and should have responded to yours separately.
-
All is good. :)
-
Sorry, I shouldn't have put you in there. Your post was mostly respectful and just questioning. Some of the others are on their tirade where unless you fish their way you are obviously doing something wrong. Constructive, respectful exchanges I am definitely up for. You can't tell me that most of the other responses were anything close to respectful. I'm presenting an alternative that in my mind works and is at least better than a number of the people out there fishing for sockeye.
Just the fact that so many are hooked in the mouth I would think people would be happy with this as an alternative so that there are fewer people out there setting the hook on anything and hooking multiple fish in the belly or back where the fish is horribly exhausted before they can get it in enough to free it. Doubt I understand, hate and ridicule I have little respect for. I am sorry for including you in that post and should have responded to yours separately.
well lets see a picture of your magic rig then. I personally don't believe your claims. I honestly think you waste your time making this rig when you are just flossing like everyone else. There are people who floss that will out catch everyone around them 10 - 1. Its not very hard. A true fisherman that is flossing on the Fraser will be able to read the water and tell exactly where the sockeye travel lane is. In this travel lane one could get a sockeye in the mouth almost every drift. There would be no accidental snagging in the belly or tail. This only occurs with fisherman who are constantly "setting the hook" every cast.
-
well lets see a picture of your magic rig then. I personally don't believe your claims. I honestly think you waste your time making this rig when you are just flossing like everyone else. There are people who floss that will out catch everyone around them 10 - 1. Its not very hard. A true fisherman that is flossing on the Fraser will be able to read the water and tell exactly where the sockeye travel lane is. In this travel lane one could get a sockeye in the mouth almost every drift. There would be no accidental snagging in the belly or tail. This only occurs with fisherman who are constantly "setting the hook" every cast.
I already told you I can't get a picture although with my description you can reproduce it almost exactly so I don't understand why you would need a picture.
You are fooling yourself if you think on a normal year that anybody can get a sockeye in the mouth on almost every drift. This year, in another couple weeks, yes. Although, with this many fish in the water, sometimes it is hard not to snag them as you can hit them right when you hit the water. Although that doesn't take a lot of skill as the travel lane when there are that many fish is most of the river. And I'm not sure where these true fisherman are fishing because in all of the years I have fished up there and all the different locations I have fished, there isn't anybody that has outfished us consistently and on the days that we are outfished, they aren't hooking the majority anywhere near the mouth.
How are these "true fisherman" flossing their fish and yet still getting the hook INSIDE the mouth on a consistent basis on every cast? If you are truly flossing, the hook is likely to end up on the outer side of the mouth on the away from shore side, or the shore side inside of the mouth. If you are so knowledgeable how this happens, then why don't you share your secret so that more fisherman can hook these sockeye on every cast with the hook in the mouth every time, just based on reading the water.
-
by not being able to get a picture just shows us that you are full of it. Everybody has a cell phone and can post a picture. Even if you don't have a cell phone i bet someone in your household does.
Its not really a secret its relatively easy to see where sockeye swim up along the river and hold. Ill go up to a guy who hasn't caught a sockeye in his life and tell him to cast right "there" And boom he will hookup almost every cast. Flossing in the mouth not snagging in the tail. If you legitimately floss you will hook 99% of the fish in the mouth. You don't even have to set the hook most of the time because the fish hooks itself when its opening and closing its mouth.
-
by not being able to get a picture just shows us that you are full of it. Everybody has a cell phone and can post a picture. Even if you don't have a cell phone i bet someone in your household does.
Its not really a secret its relatively easy to see where sockeye swim up along the river and hold. Ill go up to a guy who hasn't caught a sockeye in his life and tell him to cast right "there" And boom he will hookup almost every cast. Flossing in the mouth not snagging in the tail. If you legitimately floss you will hook 99% of the fish in the mouth. You don't even have to set the hook most of the time because the fish hooks itself when its opening and closing its mouth.
What are you smoking? We already have numbers stating that something like while flossing, only 37% of the fish were hooked inside the mouth. Maybe if you are fishing up where they are spawning and can easily see the fish. Wherever I have fished there is no magic "cast right there and you will catch one." There are many factors in where the fish are, especially when there are not a lot of fish in the river. If someone cast close to them downstream a little bit, they will likely move out slightly, or maybe in slightly. There are certainly place where fish tend to hold but there is no guarantee that if you hit that spot every single cast that you are going to get a fish.
Yes, I have a cell phone. My dad, who is still in Washington, does not. Well, he has one but does not have one that will take pictures and if he did have one that took pictures, he wouldn't know how to use it anyways. And to ask one of my other family members to go out of their way to get you a picture when I described it in quite exact details just seems kinda rude to them and pointless. If I remember, next year when I fly up there I will try and take a picture of it.
-
Or have you not figured out from my name that TNAngler means I am in Tennessee? Or maybe that is just one of my fish tales like some of yours.
Since there is this magic catch a fish every cast place, you should tell everyone where it is and what to do so that people can stop wasting time and effort so they can get their two fish and go home. We can just form a nice straight line. A person will move up, make two casts, and then it will be the next persons turn. I'm sure we can get through a couple hundred people in a day.
-
Or have you not figured out from my name that TNAngler means I am in Tennessee? Or maybe that is just one of my fish tales like some of yours.
Since there is this magic catch a fish every cast place, you should tell everyone where it is and what to do so that people can stop wasting time and effort so they can get their two fish and go home. We can just form a nice straight line. A person will move up, make two casts, and then it will be the next persons turn. I'm sure we can get through a couple hundred people in a day.
The way you described your rig would take someone ages to make a copy of it. If one could see a picture it would be easy to replicate.
I honestly wish people would get their 2 fish and leave but there are to any beaks out there that are trying to catch a spring. I for one get my 2 and leave. If i happen to catch a spring in-between catching those 2 *bonus*. But i will never deliberately try to floss a spring.
How am i supposed to know you are from TN? Im sure you could replicate your rig down there and get a picture up. As it seems you use knitting supplies. They sell that stuff everywhere.
The only reason why i'm disagreeing with you is because i find it very hard to believe that the sockeye are biting. Especially in the fraser. Guys in the tidal can't even get the to bite let alone at grassy bar.
-
The way you described your rig would take someone ages to make a copy of it. If one could see a picture it would be easy to replicate.
I honestly wish people would get their 2 fish and leave but there are to any beaks out there that are trying to catch a spring. I for one get my 2 and leave. If i happen to catch a spring in-between catching those 2 *bonus*. But i will never deliberately try to floss a spring.
How am i supposed to know you are from TN? Im sure you could replicate your rig down there and get a picture up. As it seems you use knitting supplies. They sell that stuff everywhere.
The only reason why i'm disagreeing with you is because i find it very hard to believe that the sockeye are biting. Especially in the fraser. Guys in the tidal can't even get the to bite let alone at grassy bar.
But according to you, you can go down and get a fish every cast, in the mouth. How is there even a possibility of catching a spring "in-between" those two casts? Do you have springs coming up and eating the sockeye you are catching?
The rig isn't that hard. Spin n glo, bead, hook with the color yard I gave. If it helps, we take a piece of yarn about an inch long and fold it in half and put it through the hook. We tie the hook with what we always called an egg knot where you can make a loop after the eye. It just requires the right color yarn and the right size spin n glo, both of which are easily described. Nobody else seemed to have issues figuring out what to do, let alone said it would take "ages to copy".
Why can't you give more details on how you are fishing for your two sockeye? You obviously can get them inside the mouth on just about every cast. If anybody else wants more details on my rig, I can give it but you are just deciding to be difficult. Being difficult without actually giving any information on what you use other than if you cast in the right spot you can catch them in the mouth every time usually means that you are just talking crap when you are probably out there fishing with nothing on your hook.
Please enlighten us so that we can all be the fishing god that you claim to be.
-
Or have you not figured out from my name that TNAngler means I am in Tennessee?
Here I was thinking that your name was a combination of your passion for the ladies and fishing!
-
Here I was thinking that your name was a combination of your passion for the ladies and fishing!
Ah, nice one. I do love me the ladies, and the fishing. Ladies fishing, wow.
-
But according to you, you can go down and get a fish every cast, in the mouth. How is there even a possibility of catching a spring "in-between" those two casts? Do you have springs coming up and eating the sockeye you are catching?
The rig isn't that hard. Spin n glo, bead, hook with the color yard I gave. If it helps, we take a piece of yarn about an inch long and fold it in half and put it through the hook. We tie the hook with what we always called an egg knot where you can make a loop after the eye. It just requires the right color yarn and the right size spin n glo, both of which are easily described. Nobody else seemed to have issues figuring out what to do, let alone said it would take "ages to copy".
Why can't you give more details on how you are fishing for your two sockeye? You obviously can get them inside the mouth on just about every cast. If anybody else wants more details on my rig, I can give it but you are just deciding to be difficult. Being difficult without actually giving any information on what you use other than if you cast in the right spot you can catch them in the mouth every time usually means that you are just talking crap when you are probably out there fishing with nothing on your hook.
Please enlighten us so that we can all be the fishing god that you claim to be.
Im not claiming to be a fishing god. But the majority of the guys out there fishing have no idea what they are doing. So when i show up and get y fish in 2 casts they are astonished. It doesn't matter what you use i have flossed the with everything. But if it makes you feel better. I use 4 oz weight with line saver. A 20lb leader that is 3 arm lengths long. green wool with pink in the middle.
Next time i go to peg i take a picture of the run and show you how to read the water to get a fish every cast.
-
This thread is becoming interesting.
-
Im not claiming to be a fishing god. But the majority of the guys out there fishing have no idea what they are doing. So when i show up and get y fish in 2 casts they are astonished. It doesn't matter what you use i have flossed the with everything. But if it makes you feel better. I use 4 oz weight with line saver. A 20lb leader that is 3 arm lengths long. green wool with pink in the middle.
Next time i go to peg i take a picture of the run and show you how to read the water to get a fish every cast.
Catching one most every cast right now doesn't seem that difficult. I wouldn't have to read the water. When the run is this big, just about any cast should get you bites. It is when the run isn't big. But please, post your pictures and show us your wisdom.
Whatever. If people want to try my rig, go ahead. If you wish to report back and tell whether it increased your production, or even post pictures of what you tied up and I can tell you what to do different, go ahead. I'm just trying to help some of these people that have no idea what they are doing. Give them something that will help. Help them catch more fish, snag fewer. Sounds like you just leave them there wondering and upset and then complain when they don't know what they are doing. Perhaps you should spend part of your day down there offering lessons on how to read the water so more people can know what they are doing.
-
This is brutal. You've got countless guides out there trying everything under the sun for years to get these fish to bite, but you've found the magic green wool. Your stories have no merit.
I'll say it again, show us the magic lure! You ramble on about all these precise conditions that need to be met for this lure to work, then wont show us what it looks like. Being rude for asking a family member to take a picture of it for you? And we're unbelievable?
I'm done with this thread, just admit to yourself, you're flossing.
-
This is brutal. You've got countless guides out there trying everything under the sun for years to get these fish to bite, but you've found the magic green wool. Your stories have no merit.
I'll say it again, show us the magic lure! You ramble on about all these precise conditions that need to be met for this lure to work, then wont show us what it looks like. Being rude for asking a family member to take a picture of it for you? And we're unbelievable?
I'm done with this thread, just admit to yourself, you're flossing.
I'm in TN. My dad doesn't have a phone to take a picture. Nobody else but my mom who doesn't even have a cell phone in the house. Who else should I ask? My sister? So, maybe in the middle of her cancer treatments she should go over to my parents house to get a picture for you? Or perhaps the brother that I haven't talked to in four years? Maybe he can drive an hour one way just to get your picture? Or the other brother who works so many hours he doesn't have time to go fishing himself? Maybe he can drive the hour one way to take a picture? Or me? Maybe you want to pay $750 for me to fly home just so I can get a picture for you because you can't follow simple directions?
Believe me or not. I don't care. If people want to try it, they are free. If they don't, their loss.
-
3 posts, and this topic?
Smells like bait to me... :(
. I think you're right, just trolled everyone! Notice the originator of this topic hasn't been online since the original post.
-
The sockeye c&r study found 18% of fish were hooked inside the mouth.
100% of the fish were flossed.
here's a link to the actual study: http://www.thinksalmon.com/reports/FraserSockeyeHookReleaseMortality08FSWP175.pdf
-
Too funny. Buddy is bottom bouncing horizontally in zero visibility 1-3 feet off the bottom with a special coloured wool and can't admit he is flossing.
If you are dead drifting under a float with a weighted lure then you can say you're not flossing.
-
The rig isn't that hard. Spin n glo, bead, hook with the color yard I gave.
Actually, the one thing that makes this somewhat plausible is the spin-n-glo.
One can cast for pinks and cohos successfully in the fraser with almost no visibility using spinners, spoons, spin-n-glos etc.and obviously no one doubts those fish actively bite. Fish have excellent ability to detect vibration and movement. It's not beyond belief that using a spin-n-glo instead of a corkie or plain wool is the major factor in your 'magic rig'.
Requiring any specific shade of wool is probably overstated and I would guess is a result of confirmation bias. Nothing I have ever seen nor heard about salmon fishing in any condition would suggest that an exact specific colour exists that would consistently get fish to strike day after day when no other colour is even remotely effective. The suggestion that it would make much difference at all in the silty Fraser is hard to believe. Not meant to be a criticism, but it's in direct conflict with what we seem to currently know about salmon fishing. If it turns out to be true, it would truly be a revolutionary and amazing discovery.
As for leader length? I dont know, it's clear that a leader of sufficient length is probably required to give the spin-n-glo enough 'freedom' to operate properly in an uninhibited manner for the right action. Whether that is 1', 3', or 10' is speculation. But you also cant deny that the probability of flossing, intentional or not, increases exponentially with leader length.
I'll accept your claims at face value, but you have to realize that using what can only be described as a flossing rig yet have almost all your sockeye legitimately bite puts you in the 0.01% of fishermen. You are literally out-fishing all the other casters on the Fraser combined. Congrats on your success, but the implication that any technique requires such a specific set of conditions such that the top fisherman can outperform the next 1000 competitors collectively is what is making others so skeptical, to say the least.
-
Actually, the one thing that makes this somewhat plausible is the spin-n-glo.
One can cast for pinks and cohos successfully in the fraser with almost no visibility using spinners, spoons, spin-n-glos etc.and obviously no one doubts those fish actively bite.
once I was fishing a side arm for Pinks in mid-Sept, it had been hot and visibility was dreadful as coloured as mid July best I can recall. Couldn't touch anything on a fly. I resorted to an old trick - a small pink and white dick nite which can be cast and I just held it almost directly downstream in a about 3 feet of water with a clear intermediate tip and just below the surface. - I had a limit within an hour. All these fish were hooked in the mouth near the tongue.
As for leader length? I dont know, it's clear that a leader of sufficient length is probably required to give the spin-n-glo enough 'freedom' to operate properly in an uninhibited manner for the right action. Whether that is 1', 3', or 10' is speculation.
anyone remember Charlie White and his underwater camera rig? Charlie had a TV for a season and took his rig to the Cowlitz River to fish for King Salmon and Summer steelhead with a guide. The guide fished with roe and a spin and glo and several feet of leader with the bait more or less tethered to the botton via a weight (like bar fishing). Charlie's camera recorded 2 interesting things 1) though fishing was slow the pool was full of salmon and steelhead 2) the spin and glo worked it's way some feet up the leader to the swivel over a period of time. Both these things were very disconcerting to the guide. You make what you want of that.
-
What i would like someone to explain to me is how is swinging a weighted fly line through a pool of fish any different from bottom bouncing ...YOUR FLOSSING THEM !!!!! I've seen many fly fishermen drag fish in by the tails on the Vedder over the years . Just my two cents .
-
. I think you're right, just trolled everyone! Notice the originator of this topic hasn't been online since the original post.
And I thought people would take that warning...
What i would like someone to explain to me is how is swinging a weighted fly line through a pool of fish any different from bottom bouncing ...YOUR FLOSSING THEM !!!!! I've seen many fly fishermen drag fish in by the tails on the Vedder over the years . Just my two cents .
I wont get started, as this thread should have died a few days ago.
I was surprised it made it to page 5... :(
-
Actually, the one thing that makes this somewhat plausible is the spin-n-glo.
One can cast for pinks and cohos successfully in the fraser with almost no visibility using spinners, spoons, spin-n-glos etc.and obviously no one doubts those fish actively bite. Fish have excellent ability to detect vibration and movement. It's not beyond belief that using a spin-n-glo instead of a corkie or plain wool is the major factor in your 'magic rig'.
Requiring any specific shade of wool is probably overstated and I would guess is a result of confirmation bias. Nothing I have ever seen nor heard about salmon fishing in any condition would suggest that an exact specific colour exists that would consistently get fish to strike day after day when no other colour is even remotely effective. The suggestion that it would make much difference at all in the silty Fraser is hard to believe. Not meant to be a criticism, but it's in direct conflict with what we seem to currently know about salmon fishing. If it turns out to be true, it would truly be a revolutionary and amazing discovery.
As for leader length? I dont know, it's clear that a leader of sufficient length is probably required to give the spin-n-glo enough 'freedom' to operate properly in an uninhibited manner for the right action. Whether that is 1', 3', or 10' is speculation. But you also cant deny that the probability of flossing, intentional or not, increases exponentially with leader length.
I'll accept your claims at face value, but you have to realize that using what can only be described as a flossing rig yet have almost all your sockeye legitimately bite puts you in the 0.01% of fishermen. You are literally out-fishing all the other casters on the Fraser combined. Congrats on your success, but the implication that any technique requires such a specific set of conditions such that the top fisherman can outperform the next 1000 competitors collectively is what is making others so skeptical, to say the least.
Perhaps it is confirmation bias but over the course of the last 20 years or so, we have experimented quite a bit and it does seem to matter. Yes, the spin n glo creating the vibrations helps. Just a normal corky was also experimented with and the effects dropped significantly. We found a corky that was sort of similar to the green we use, didn't work, red with the green yarn, didn't work. If we can see 1 foot, how far can the fish see? Even if it is just 1 foot which I doubt is the case, the vibration gets the fish excited/on edge/something and then there is a little flash of something they are used to eating a foot in front of them. To think this could never trigger a strike outright without any consideration and maybe even trials I think is foolish.
Like I have said previously, if it gives more people a chance of hooking more fish in the mouth, what is the harm in trying? Does someone honestly think me posting this here is going to cause more people to fish? More people to try to floss? Well, it might I guess if it works which is maybe what some people are scared of but then people wouldn't be flossing them. If it turns out there is a way to get sockeye to hit even some of the time, maybe people are afraid more people would try for them. If they are right and I am truly flossing, then the only harm would be that other people try it and I might convince other people that they aren't flossing when in fact they are. However, those people would likely be out flossing for sockeye anyways so again, what is the harm and why the nastiness?
I explained why we lengthened the leader, to save the gear. In places with smaller rocks we could probably shorten it quite a bit. We used to fish places with some pretty big rocks and we had to go quite a bit longer. However, anyone that tries this out, choose whatever length of leader you wish. I am curious if people try it if they notice the same things. Try it with different colors and see if the results are the same as what we have found.
I'm not sure how to fish for pinks on the Frasier because I only fished for pinks in the Skagit although we did catch some pinks in the Fraser on this outfit. On the Skagit, it was believed for years that you either had to fish with shrimp or with something with pink. If you asked anybody back in the 80s and 90s, that was the only way to catch them. In the 90s, we were fishing for them with half and half dick nights, half gold, half silver, and as long as the water wasn't too dirty, they would kill it. My brother now fishes for them with jigs. The conventional wisdom back in the good old days was wrong. The conventional wisdom for sockeye is they won't bite. What makes them different than every other type of salmon? None of them supposedly eat while entering fresh water but sockeye are the only ones that don't bite. Or could it be that we just haven't found what they will bite on yet? Perhaps they are just more finicky than other salmon. I think the fact that they pretty much won't touch the bar rig is one of the main reasons they were considered to not bite. Time will tell I guess. All I know is my experience over the last 20 years, of which we have caught so many fish in almost the exact same spot, the randomness of flossing doesn't seem plausible.