Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: clarki on November 06, 2017, 11:46:12 AM
-
http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/joy-riding-jet-boaters-destroying-pitt-river-salmon-fishermen
What do you think?
Should there be a complete restriction placed on jet boating in "smaller" salmon bearing streams? Or perhaps restrictions during the period when eggs and juveniles are most vulnerable, say Sept to May? Or, restrictions only on recreational boaters and not on fishing guides who have a vested interest in the health of the river and are less likely to engage in destructive boating activities?
Or, do we accept that all human recreation activities have an environmental impact and the best we can do is to educate to minimize the impacts?
Or, is this just the case of a NIMBY lodge operator wanting the river himself?
-
Yes.
-
They should be banned. If they want to play with their toys, play in the ocean or Fraser
-
If they are trying to reduce the amount of traffic and use of sonar in the Straight to quiet things down for the resident orcas.
I can only appreciate the need to reduce the stress on the smaller streams in a similar light. I can't believe how many of these guys are ripping around up there. It has be disruptive to the entire ecosystem/food chain. From the returning salmon, to the fry, bank erosion, damage to native plants, causing silt which can stifle insect hatches that feed fish and birds, chasing away mammals etc.
I agree, stick to the bigger water bodies. Put in a speed restriction, or something...
-
i believe cites and communities can apply to transport canada for vessel restriction zones on their rivers.
-
There are multiple topics on this forum about this if you do a search. That said...
I don't care much for Danny garick he is a bit of a nutter. But I agree with him on this issue. The upper pitt has show areas that jet boats go over a disturb spawning beds. should be timing restriction same as closure time for Bringing log booms down Harrison River
-
i am conflicted by this issue being a jet boat owner. i feel that its a slippery slope and if the upper pit gets closed others may follow. i would love to drift that river instead of sledding it but theres no way to get up there unless you are dropped in by helicopter, or pay the lodge and a guide to use there equipment which i already own. if he offered a shuttle service problem solved but he does not. well at least for fishing traffic. i am not into paying a guide just to have access. i personally find no satisfaction in hiring a guide for fishing.
i do see that all this traffic could have negative effects on fish and habitat so its definitely worth a discussion.
-
New Zealand being the inventor of jet boat technologies have done a lot of research. Jet boats dislodge salmon eggs from their nests. so it’s not an if they do damage it’s a fact they do If operated over nesting gravels.
That said no jet boats in the upper pit would allow the lodge owner to have a monopoly over the system.
-
I say ban them in the upper Pitt, and every spawning bed area of every river too.
That said no jet boats in the upper pit would allow the lodge owner to have a monopoly over the system.
I don't think it was your intention, but please don't try and make the Pitt River Lodge look self serving in this request. Just because nobody else has opened a lodge in the upper Pitt and nobody has put in a road, doesn't make his request protectionist. There is difficult to almost no access to most of the rivers in BC and if you want to fish them, then you need to figure out how to get there. Fishing the upper Pitt is not a right, it's a privilege.
-
It should be pretty straight forward.
Anyone causing damage to the environment should be fined.
I would include BC Hydro when they open the gates full during heavy rainfalls.
You can go down to the river after it has dropped and find Salmon eggs 50 ft and more from the river in the bushes.
They scour the whole river during these events which could easily be rectified by anyone with even the smallest brain.
Unfortuately they do know what they are doing and its all about squeezing the last dollar out of there systems.
-
New Zealand being the inventor of jet boat technologies have done a lot of research. Jet boats dislodge salmon eggs from their nests. so it’s not an if they do damage it’s a fact they do If operated over nesting gravels.
That said no jet boats in the upper pit would allow the lodge owner to have a monopoly over the system.
link? would love to read it. for real.
everything a human does effects the environment. where do you think your water and electricity come from? dams, look at the cap, stave etc. how about all the industrial activity in the lower fraser including freighter ships dropping off your new flat screen, i phone's or civic's. or what about all the out dated flood protection equipment the citys used for flood control. not to mention all the logging in that area. the list never ends. but its those dam jet boaters.
i am all for realistic discussions but not every jet boater is jumping banks and pumping rocks, and if you think that you are mistaken.
-
Easy for the owner of that lodge to say when he runs a monopoly on that river.
My two cents.
-
Fishing the upper Pitt is not a right, it's a privilege.
If I could bitch slap you I would.
-
Last year he said the river was "plugged with salmon"
Every year he has something say, keeps him and his business in the public eye.
http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/lodge-owner-says-business-at-risk-after-crazy-federal-decision-to-close-sockeye-fishing-on-the-pitt-river
-
You cant use jet-boats on many rivers, if it is truly in the better interest of the fish to ban jet boating then I support it, I fully agree with ShaunO, having easy access to a river is not a right, a right is the ability to fish the river in the first place. This has nothing to do with the lodge owner trying to have a monopoly (as if jet boat owners are gonna pay for guided trips) Im sure the owner (who probably cares more about the river then anyone) doesn't want to see his lively hood effected.
-
Anybody who thinks that the lodge owner is looking out for anything but himself should be forced to watch a couple episodes of Frozen Gold. If he will do that show he will do anything to promote himself.
I have taken my boat up there 20 or 30 times and only once have I seen more than 5 or 6 boats. I did quite a bit of web surfing (when I first got my boat) to find out if jets cause damage to fisheries and what little I found indicated that there is a 1-2 day window after being layed that eggs are vulnerable. After that they are able to handle boat washes without suffering damage. And that was in very shallow water, 3-6 inches as I recollect, which is not prime spawning water. He mentions fry washing up on shore and I am not sure that I find that believable, there must be an awful lot of fry hanging out right next to the bank? Again, sounds like something from Frozen Gold.
Just another one of many publicity stunts by this small business owner trying to get a foot up by stepping on others backs.
And access to rivers is a right.
I don’t see him advocating closing the fishery to protect the fish. We’ve been told over and over that eco tourists are where the money is, so why not protect those fish by closing the fishery?
-
"He mentions fry washing up on shore and I am not sure that I find that believable"
Having only fished the upper Pit once by means of boating up the lake and un loading a motorbike on the other end I am not surprised by this comment.
Those in their jets see little time on shore compared to those on foot and probably do not witness fry on the beaches as much as others. I will use last spring as an example on the Harrison.
While fishing numerous times for cutties (on foot) I had witnessed many (hundreds) of dead recently hatched fry washed 6ft up the shore line on a couple of separate outings. During this time a lot of fry where witnessed to be swimming mere inches from shore in larger groupings. It would not be unreasonable to suspect these fish where washed up on to the banks by passing boats (not just jets)
Now I am also a boat owner ( not jet ) and would support regulations to control wakes, washes, speed,periods however you want to say it to help control these undesired occurrences. I think most would agree more can be done to help and by saying its not me or I have done the research is a cop out. Simple fact is more research needs to be done and we need to care more about the resources we use.
Now I don't believe Dan is in it for himself. Sure he has a vested interest but that extends beyond him wanting a river to himself. On that outing on the Pit I remember passing him on the road at which time he was smiling and waving. I did not get the feeling he was upset that others were utilizing the resources around him. As a matter of fact my bud fished at his lodge the next year and happened to remember the day he saw me on that rd and had nothing but nice things to say.
I do not know him but have respect for his openness regarding issues others fail to recognize or simply don't care to recognize. I really think his intentions are to bring awareness and we all know you have to be a little extreme in your delivery sometimes to get anyone to notice. I don't really believe his intentions are to wreak havoc on the jet boating world but to raise awareness to those irresponsible jet boaters who feel the need to run shallow water spawning channels, jumping gravel bars etc with little knowledge of the consequences. Heck maybe he is also thinking about safety of others as well.
-
He was in a tv show that was looking for a gold mine in the watershed. What do you think would have happened if they found the gold? Do you think that he would support development of a mine if someone else was operating it? When they were exploring the options for run of the river projects the engineers were driven to sites in his truck after sleeping in his lodge and then he came out against the run of the river. The tv show used a jet boat to “search” for gold.
I am in full agreement that there should be some education for boaters on waters like this because there is nothing now. We get a generic licence and a boat and we’re on our own to learn how to operate the boat properly. And the numbers of recreational jet boats that aren’t used for fishing is growing quickly and a lot of these people have no clue on impacts on the ecosystem. Education, not restriction, is what is needed.
-
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288330.1975.9515566
"The passage of jet boats through spawning areas can kill salmon eggs buried in the river bed. By using a jet boat on the Ashley River the pressure gradients created in a redd were determined. At the maximum boat speed investigated (11 m.s-1) gradients up to 9.32kPa.m ' were recorded. The induced water velocities through the gravel were then estimated from the equation of motion and reproduced in a gravel-filled tube in the laboratory. For the test conditions discharge velocities ranged from 0.18-0.3 m.s-1. Studies of the effect of these flows on salmon eggs revealed fatality rates of up to 40% at their most critical stage on the ninth day of development."
Here is a link to a study done in new Zealand in the 70s proving that jet boats can kill salmon eggs. Im not sure if jet-boat technology has advanced in the past 30 years enough to prevent this, but assuming this study is correct then its pretty plain and simple that jet boats are not good for a river with eggs in it. I also noticed that it said eggs are at there most vulnurable right after spawning, so maybe a 2/3 weeks power boat ban during peak spawning season?
I totaly understand how much easier having a jet boat can make fishing, however if a few individuals with jet boats are putting the whole fishery in danger, whats the point?
As for the owner of the lodge, I feel as if many of you are comparing this man to Trump, he owns a lodge on river he is not some capitialst fat cat raping our waters for profit. The comment by GordJ about the TV show does seem a little fishy though, and I 100% agree with your view on education.
-
That was the only study I could find when I looked too. You would think that there would be more data on this wouldn't you? I'm just afraid that the knee jerk reaction of a new government will shut down this incredible recreational opportunity without good data, just good p.r.
-
Dan the man looking for a little more PR time! I get where he is coming from with this scenario! I fish this river about 20 days a year and have seen damage done! We don’t run the boat up as much as we used too as we have access to a vehicle up there! But don’t for one second think he is doing this for the sole protection of the fish in mind!
On a side note. Where did all the Chinook pics that his clients caught go on his web site? Must have got his hand slapped for targeting a species that is closed to fishing! Hmm! Oh ya nice sturgeon in the boat Dan! Guess you missed that memo as well!
A wolf in sheeps clothing!
-
I have my thoughts about Dan and his interests but you be the judge:
U can watch dan in http://www.history.ca/curse-of-the-frozen-gold/ where they use a jet boat along the river.
In 2016 http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/lodge-owner-says-business-at-risk-after-crazy-federal-decision-to-close-sockeye-fishing-on-the-pitt-river
“This river is plugged with salmon,” he said in an interview. “We have the biggest runs we’ve probably seen in 10 years. They put in the closure and didn’t even come up to see what’s happening here. It seriously affects my business. They put on the closure for no reason.
“It’s crazy. They’ve had way worse runs than this before and they never shut it down.”
“I can’t stop my business or I’ll go bankrupt,” he continued. “You try to avoid the salmon, but there’s so many in the river. People come here to fish salmon. ”
In 2015 http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Power+boat+upper+Pitt+River+urged+after+accidents+leave+well+known+fisherman+dead/11121900/story.html
"Dan Gerak, owner of Pitt River Lodge, said he came across two men Sunday who survived a harrowing jet boat flip and gave them a ride to the dock on Pitt Lake. The two hung on to the flipped boat then swam ashore just before a fast chute led into a canyon and their likely deaths, he said.
Gerak uses rafts for his fly fishing and ecotourism operation and supports Davison’s call to ban jet boaters from the upper Pitt. “It’s absolutely nuts,” he said. “There’s going to be more deaths for sure. It’s a real tragedy.”
In 2008, Gerak called for increased police patrols after four jet boat sinkings.:
In 2013 http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/born+player+clayton+stoner+centre+grizzly+bear+shooting+controversy/8865136/story.html
"In the upper Pitt, Gerak would like to see a no-hunting corridor for 25 kilometres along the valley bottom to encourage tourism and bear appreciation and to ensure public safety, noting there is plenty of room to hunt on logging roads higher up the mountains.
Provincial wildlife laws allow the outfitter to take as many clients as he wants into the valley and kill up to two bears each.
Gerak also noted that about five years ago a resident showed up on a jet boat, got out and killed a black bear with a bow and arrow on Corbold Creek while it was feeding on salmon and while his horrified clients watched nearby."
https://www.straight.com/life/386146/land-big-fish-pitt-river-lodge
“I love this area. When I was a commercial fisherman, Lee and I used to bring fishing guests up here on our own until we decided to build our own lodge and make this a full-time thing,” Gerak says. “That was more than 20 years ago.”
-
On a side note. Where did all the Chinook pics that his clients caught go on his web site? Must have got his hand slapped for targeting a species that is closed to fishing! Hmm! Oh ya nice sturgeon in the boat Dan! Guess you missed that memo as well!
A wolf in sheeps clothing!
Still plenty of chinook pics up in his gallery... not sure where you're looking.
-
I've had interactions with Dan that have been less than fun, but attacking him for being the person he is is different than addressing the issue he's raising.
Put aside your self-interest for a second and consider that this is an issue that can have a negative impact on our already struggling salmon populations.
-
Still plenty of chinook pics up in his gallery... not sure where you're looking.
Thanks, I didn’t scroll down! Picture says a thousand words! Cheers!
-
I don't care if it is somewhat self serving for him to want to limit or restrict jet boat access on this sensitive, highly productive lower mainland watershed.
Anyone familiar with Ducks Unlimited knows a thing or two about users of a resource oftentimes doing the most to protect it.
-
Anyone familiar with Ducks Unlimited knows a thing or two about users of a resource oftentimes doing the most to protect it.
Really good example, I don't know Dan but it would not suprise me if he was more active in protecting the Pitt then your average joe.
-
Like I said in an early post that I agree with dan on this but someone attacked me earlier for saying the lodge has a manoply on the system.
It’s also not the only system that has jet boating issues. Want the jet boaters off pitt expect to see them else where like vedder.
In the Harrison why do jet boats need to go on the opposite side of the log booms in the shallow water gravels. Why can’t they stick to the main channel.
If you go in other forums the ocean guys think rivers should be closed all together. Why target salmon close to their spawning habitat when there no longer in condition.
Careful what u wish for when u want to limit access.
-
Like I said in an early post that I agree with dan on this but someone attacked me earlier for saying the lodge has a manoply on the system.
He may have a monopoly but (and forgive me if I'm uneducated) but couldn't someone else open a lodge on the upper Pitt? Or does Dan own all of the land up there? Its still legal to fish it right? so could people not bushwhack in, or is it all private land that you can not trespass on?
It’s also not the only system that has jet boating issues. Want the jet boaters off pitt expect to see them else where like vedder.
In my opinion there is no need for motorized boats on 90% of rivers in BC so in my dream scenario ban them everywhere except for huge systems.
If you go in other forums the ocean guys think rivers should be closed all together. Why target salmon close to their spawning habitat when there no longer in condition.
Careful what u wish for when u want to limit access.
I can see where the ocean guys are coming from, if the situation truly gets to the point where it is needed to close all freshwater salmon fishing then I support it, fish are not on this earth to solely provide sport, and if we are driving a species to extinction then close'm up. I'll still be at the river, you don't need a bend in your rod to have a good day on the water.
-
why do you assume everyone up there is targeting salmon. many other species up there besides salmon.
-
He's actually not complaining about the people fishing but the recreation users. Jet boats and jet skies, Pit Lake turns into cultist lake in the summer now and I am sure in turn has drove many people to explore upper Pitt river.
People also go up there to hunt.
One way to eliminate jet boats would be to put a nice gravel road up there. Altho I don't think we'll see Dan asking for one of those any time soon.
why do you assume everyone up there is targeting salmon. many other species up there besides salmon.
[/quote
Because that is what the topic of this discussion is about. Not about bull trout or other species in Pitt River.
-
I'll still be at the river, you don't need a bend in your rod to have a good day on the water.
Thats what the jet boaters say.
This is the first time that I came across his complaints, the first boat is mine and we have about $1200 of life jackets on me, my wife and grandkids. Funny that in the height of the bull trout season he had a free boat for the reporter? And the numbers of boats that he claims is ridiculous. 2008. There is a brief edit at the start so that I could show off to my friends.
https://youtu.be/td1RsbVlvXY (https://youtu.be/td1RsbVlvXY)
-
Nothing says escaping to nature like ripping up a small river in a jet boat.
-
One way to eliminate jet boats would be to put a nice gravel road up there. Altho I don't think we'll see Dan asking for one of those any time soon.
There is a gravel road!
-
Nothing says escaping to nature like ripping up a small river in a jet boat.
It is no different than snowmobiles, quads, dirt bikes, jet skis, waterskiing or just plain boating. All the guests at the lodge use a boat to get up the lake and ride up a logging road in a pickup, is that any different? It is hard to get anywhere without motorized transportation and some like it.
Hell, I drove to Inuvik this year to see the nature.
-
It is no different than snowmobiles, quads, dirt bikes, jet skis, waterskiing or just plain boating. All the guests at the lodge use a boat to get up the lake and ride up a logging road in a pickup, is that any different?
No, it is different. The pickup isn't directly in the stream churning up gravel
Quad's, dirt bikes, jet ski's etc are just as annoying - too many of them buzzing around making a god awful noise.
-
No, it is different. The pickup isn't directly in the stream churning up gravel
Quad's, dirt bikes, jet ski's etc are just as annoying - too many of them buzzing around making a god awful noise.
On any smaller river jet boats speed should be restricted. Say 15km per hr.
Less power / speed thus gravel not churned up.
Or whatever speed it takes to which it does not affect the fish/spawning...
Enforcement would be an issue but with signage ,smart phone cams & heavy fines possibly jet boat owners will put it in a crawl speed.
Jet boats can do there racing on the main Fraser. ( even there 50 km max )
-
https://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM
-
On any smaller river jet boats speed should be restricted. Say per hr.
Less power / speed thus gravel not churned up.
Or whatever speed it takes to which it does not affect the fish/spawning...
Enforcement would be an issue but with signage ,smart phone cams & heavy fines possibly jet boat owners will put it in a crawl speed.
Jet boats can do there racing on the main Fraser. ( even there max )
Speed is always hard to regulate, however horsepower limits are used on a number of lakes and rivers and ultimately with lower power you get lower speeds. Might be a better option than speed restrictions.
-
If I could bitch slap you I would.
Tyler, I think this says more about your abilities than it does about my opinion. ;D
-
Speed is always hard to regulate, however horsepower limits are used on a number of lakes and rivers and ultimately with lower power you get lower speeds. Might be a better option than speed restrictions.
Sounds good to me.
So if I hear ya right are you proposing a 25-30 hp outboard limit on the upper Pitt R kinda idea?
-
still wont work. you know how fast a 12ft aluminium goes with a 30hp on it. gordj said it best, education not restriction.
-
still wont work. you know how fast a 12ft aluminium goes with a 30hp on it. gordj said it best, education not restriction.
I respect your position and I would agree completely if education was more effective than it is, e.g. bottom bouncing. That said, I can tell you that a 26km ride in a 12' jet sled, up the Pitt Lake would be a harrowing experience. Jets are most efficient at high RPM and the fuel burn at full throttle would be impressive, but riding in a flat bottom sled in any kind of chop for an hour is fatiguing at best and damaging at the worst.