Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gooey on August 21, 2006, 10:37:20 AM
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I am curious to see the tolerance levels for flossing amounst memebers here, where do you fit in:
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floss'em for the food! I cant find any better method to catch sockeye on the Fraser, just to big of a river. But I also take conservation into measures, if the fish stocks are healthy enough, why not catch some. But i disagree with bottom bouncing on smaller river and streams, as they just clean the fish out, with not chance of many fish making it to the spawning grounds.
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As long as flossing is kept to the fraser and people do not bring this kind of fishing to other rivers then I am fine with it but if people continue to bring it to other rivers then the only solution is to ban it all together.
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GT, Id probably agree with you in the manner that Id probably not put up as much as fuss as I do now about it. Contridicting of me and my beliefs? Possibly. :-[
The mess and environmental damage is one thing, but if guys left it at the Fraser, Id have a lot less to debate even though Id still disapprove of any snagging done in the name of fishing.
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just a question for the fishing elite, back east I used to hunt carp with a bow, even though the fish dont "bite" we considered it a very challenging and rewarding sport, we also would spear fish for northern pike, the fish didnt bite, we would just stick a spear throught them, we had alot of fun doing this
and also put meat on the table. question is are both these practices unsporting and unethical? I think not.
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I'll say to the fishing elitists that if you hunt with a rifle and not set a baited trap, you are contradicting yourself. You are not supposed to take anything that does not bite. You can of course say that is irrelevant comparison. Ah, that is the problem when some one always think only his point is valid. ;D
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That is the point about flossing. It is personal. DFO does not issue ticket to any fishermen for flossing. COs are patrolling the bars much more than before and yet no one gets the ticket for flossing. They open the fishery knowing it is mostly flossing. They write the legal codes governing illegal fishing techniques. COs have never been kind to fishermen if they are caught doing illegal or unlawful fishing. That is good enough for me. If it is not good enough for you, so be it. That is life. Floss for those who wants to floss. Stay home if you don't enjoy it. It is a personal choice. It is none of other people's business. But to ease the concern on smaller systems, I support a leader length restriction on them.
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I'll say to the fishing elitists that if you hunt with a rifle and not set a baited trap, you are contradicting yourself. You are not supposed to take anything that does not bite. You can of course say that is irrelevant comparison. Ah, that is the problem when some one always think only his point is valid. ;D
Gosh we will soon be wondering if we can eat a chicken, any red meat or a vegetable because of how they are dispatched or harvested.
I am going to go and look for some golf balls and pick some blackberries. The former will be ok as they are just hiding dead in the grass but the blackberries, that could be another story. ;D ;D ;D
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I'll say to the fishing elitists that if you hunt with a rifle and not set a baited trap, you are contradicting yourself. You are not supposed to take anything that does not bite. You can of course say that is irrelevant comparison. Ah, that is the problem when some one always think only his point is valid. ;D
You said it. It's irrelevant. ;D Hunting is different than fishing and the methods, values and standards are also different. You might be interesting to know that there are also debates among hunters not all that far from the flossing debate.
You cant compare apples to oranges, although Id be interested to see someone try to 'land' a 800lb moose. ;D
Liketofish, you are right in some of what you say, but also be aware that laws do not make right. You can't hide behind laws that quite easily can be seen to be full of holes if anyone can see through the BBQ's smoke. ;D
Randog, Im sorry you see my stance to divide anglers and be 'against' other anglers and treating the flossers as bad guys. No, not all are 'bad' but when one see's the effect that this flossing epidemic has caused to our rivers and to the spirit of angling, all who snag are unfortunately supporting and validating this problem IMO and I think it's very unfortuante.
Of course, purely my opinion.
A question I frequently ask, yet I havnt had an answer to date.
The question:
Given the reasons given to snag sockeye in the Fraser, why CANT these reasons be applied to any other river system and for any other species?
Other river systems get muddy like the Fraser.
Other fish species, by their nature, can be difficult to make bite for various reasons.
Has anyone considered that the reasons given to snag sockeye in the Fraser can be applied to other systems and since DFO couldnt be relied on to deal with flossing in the Fraser, why will they deal with it on the Vedder et al? They currently dont and it happens all the time there.
Do you think someone snagging steelhead under the KWB is going to listen to you any better than you guys listen to me in regards to snagging the Fraser? Remember, their reasons for flossing steelhead can be almost the exact same as yours for flossing sockeye.
This is why I believe some standards and core values of some things must be followed or you risk chaos.
This question, of course, relies on the idea that people still wish to see some of the values and standards of angling retained. Many flossers indicate their concerns about flossing going beyond the Fraser for sockeye and chinook (it's almost bad enough to include chinook now) and I wonder if they've considered how other 'anglers' who were introduced to 'angling' by flossing see flossing as a whole for how they choose to fish.
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Many flossers indicate their concerns about flossing going beyond the Fraser for sockeye and chinook (it's almost bad enough to include chinook now) and I wonder if they've considered how other 'anglers' who were introduced to 'angling' by flossing see flossing as a whole for how they choose to fish.
Well, I for one was introduced to angling in BC via Flossing the Fraser. Do I floss any other pieces of water?? NO!! The first time I ever headed to the Vedder, about a month after learning how to "floss" I had with me a drift rod, and a float. Didn't catch much, but hey, It was my first time out. I saw the flossers under KW Bridge, in fact that is the first place I fished. Did I take on the methods used by the other "anglers" there. No, I was new, but something didn't seem right about it. For one simple fact, I was told that the fish will bite. That the fish can see straight ahead and up, so to my thinking, I couldn't understand why these guys were dragging bottom. You could ask GT or Searun, I met them on the river about 4 years ago, and Searun gave me a few tips and helped land a nice 11.5 lb coho a couple mins later.
This is why when out on the river and I see someone who may be frustrated, or just doesn't really have a grasp of the concept as of yet, I try to help out and show them the ropes so to speak.
That has gotten a bit off topic of course, but I was just trying to say, that not all people who start out on the Fraser Flossery take it to other river systems. I know this is becoming a problem, one that probably won't go away in the near future, but until something is done with the regs, of perhaps a test of some sort is introduced ( this so that some can't just say they were ignorant to the rules and I 'm sorry it won't happen again),this isn't going to get a whole lot better. So instead of the endless debating on here, whenever the opportunity arises, try to help and educate new anglers, or perhaps even older ones. Then if given the opportunity, take them fishing and show them how it should be done.
As for myself, how do I feel about the flossery? I think everyone already knows that. So I am not gong to bother typing out and even longer post to try and "justify" myself. I feel fine about it. That is all I am going to say on this, as I usually don't get into these discussions anyways. Just felt the need to make a comment of 2! ;)
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well said BS,besides its not like you floss many fish on the fraser when ur out anyway ;D
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well said BS,besides its not like you floss many fish on the fraser when ur out anyway ;D
That is affirmative!! ;D ;D
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BS, this is what we try to do in our posts, explain our concerns about this fishery. I know you and many others from this forum would not dream of fishing other systems this way but there is many that do carry this practice over to most rivers these days and that is why the problems as we see them are being posted by a few of us. In my mind one can not really choose what river it is ok to floss in and then not another. In my mind it is plain and simple, an angler should be fishing by a method where you are doing everything you can to make a fish actually track down your bait or lure of choice and bite it, not catching a fish just by chance. This is what I was taught for many years what sports angling is about. Getting a fish to take home is great but is not the most important thing to do, maybe I think that way as age does that to you. ;D ;D
I would be naive to think that this fishery now will ever end other than if sockeye openings are stopped by the ones that will do it, FOC, it is in their court. I for one do think this will happen in the years not too far away.
Of course there is no need to say much more, (most likely I have repeated myself here) as I feel the reasons why a number of us raise concerns where this fishery is leading us has been well stated by many. Of course it is a difficult thing to do, tackling this, as it can strain relationships with many that we treasure as friends, including you.
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The Biggest Problem with this fishery as was stated earlier is the over flow of this type of fishing onto our smaller systems,systems of which i have grown up fishing and have seen many changes over the years ,some good some not so good and year after year the negatives are starting to over take the positives,i have taken part in this fishery and i can say that it is not my cup of tea,i fish mostly because i enjoy a few sockeye as much as any fish lover but i don't see the need to fill my freezer every year after all there are many other fisheries that are much more enjoying were i can get as much fish as i need.BS you are right not all fisherman that fish the Fraser sockey take these methods to other systems but with the large numbers of people that do fish the Fraser sockey it will only take a small percentage of them to fish this way on the smaller systems to make a negative impact,i don't know what the answers are but i wouldn't be sad to see the Fraser sockey open either regulated differently or even closed all together because i personally am pretty tired of seeing some of the sockey mentality over flowing onto the systems that i have enjoyed fishing for a long time,it hasn't allways been this way and i know we cant turn back the clock but if something doesn't change soon the only enjoyment these systems will bring to me will be the memories of better times.
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So instead of the endless debating on here, whenever the opportunity arises, try to help and educate new anglers, or perhaps even older ones. Then if given the opportunity, take them fishing and show them how it should be done.
Very well said BS. You're not going to get people to change by calling them names, bittling them, sarcastic comments etc. Take some time to educate the people, show them a different technique whether it is bar fishing, float fishing, casting spoons etc. invite them fishing.
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I'll probably floss a few this year for the BBQ and smoke a few, but I had a disturbing first time out this year so Im a little turned off it....and no, for me its not "really" fishing, just harvesting. That said, everybody on their moral highhorse should really check themselves...because almost everything we do as anglers will eventually come into question as being ethical or not. Use of live bait or bait at all, composite rods, fishfinders, treble hooks, lead weights, even the monofilament we all use...all that crap at one time has come under fire. Lets face it, we harrass and sometimes kill fish for our own pleasure, and even the most environmentally conscious of us have lost gear (floats, mono, pencil lead and Drennans, too!!) in the chuck or rivers...sometimes we even *gasp* fish when stocks are low (2005 coho anyone?)...So please guys, remember what we ALL have in common. Its a loophole in the regs right now that people are exploiting to catch fish that won't bite anyways...no use "losing friends" over it....we're all fishermen at one point or another.
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Take some time to educate the people, show them a different technique whether it is bar fishing, float fishing, casting spoons etc. invite them fishing.
[/quote]I have invited you many times to ride out in the Leaf Craft and bar fish but you have declined. ;D ;D
Is it the rolling, rolling rolling right along ;D ;D ;D that bothers you. It is almost time for that to start happening. ;D
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Take some time to educate the people, show them a different technique whether it is bar fishing, float fishing, casting spoons etc. invite them fishing.
I have invited you many times to ride out in the Leaf Craft and bar fish but you have declined. ;D ;D
Is it the rolling, rolling rolling right along ;D ;D ;D that bothers you. It is almost time for that to start happening. ;D
[/quote]
I've heard through the grapevine that people that have ridden the Maple Leaf craft hasn't been the same since.
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I think there are a few ways to ease the tension on the fraser. #1 Make it illegal to floss Springs. #2 When Sockeye are open, close spring retention. #3 Make it a requirement to tag sockeye on your licence. when you get your two you are done ! Go home! No more "I got my two now Im fishing for you"
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Just my opinion on this.
The whole flossery issue always bring up two old adages for me. My limited understanding of the history of the recreational sockeye fishery goes like this: Once upon a time, sockeye was not open to recreational anglers but a small group of dedicated fisherfolks put in the time and effort to allow it to open. Not sure if flossing came before or after this. So, the first adage that comes to mind is that be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it. The group of dedicated fisherfolks got what they wished for that allows a recreational sockeye opening but it has morphed into this flossery. The second adage is that once you open Pandora's box, you can't close it. Interestingly enough, if you remember the actual myth, all the evils were let into the world with the opening of the box. But, what most people usually forget is that remaining at the bottom of the box, was one small little creature called Hope.
First things first. Flossing, by the current regulations is legal. Period. It's the way the law is written. I've read it, I've interpreted it. For those who wish to floss, this is a good thing. For those who don't, obviously it's not. But, the same law that allows flossing does not restrict which river system it's allowed in. So, it's legal in the Vedder, Thompson, Chehalis, Brunette, Serpentine and any other little creek, stream or river you can think of. For those who wish to floss, this is still a good thing, for those who don't, obviously still bad. But, there is the third group of people for which this is bad: the group who doesn't mind flossing in the Fraser but not any other river system. It's kind of the "Not in my backyard" kind of mentality. But law is still law and flossing is allowed in any river system. For those who are against flossing, I think their perspective (and I don't want to put words in the mouths of others here, so please correct me if I'm wrong) is global in nature. By that I mean they're looking at the big picture and seeing how flossing will affect the sport fishing industry as a whole. How the technique will pervade other river systems beyond the Fraser; ethical questions about legalized forms of snagging; where this kind of fishery will ultimately lead to. Those in favor of flossing are seeing the benefits: it's extremely effective in catching a species of salmon that doesn't bite; that the impact recreational fishers have on the sockeye stocks is fairly negligible; it's legal. Both viewpoints are valid and ironically not mutually exclusive as people would lead one to believe. I would venture a small guess that most people who floss would prefer it to stay on the Fraser because they understand the negative impact it would have on other systems whereas the Fraser is better able to absorb it. Flosser or not, for many people putting a fresh fish on the table is a wonderful thing that we are fortunate to have easy access to. There aren't really any bad guys in any of this, only people who have differences of perspectives of the fishery.
For those who have suggestions or would like the law to reflect changes so that it fits better into their personal beliefs, philosophy, or ethics, I'm sad to say, it isn't likely to happen at least not in the foreseeable future. The amount of political will required to change a law in the House of Commons is staggering; the amount of political will to change the regulations (I'm assuming by the Governor in Council, but I will have to check) is merely confounding. If it isn't a really hot politiical issue, change is unlikely. So, you can't have your cake and eat it too unfortunately. Ultimately I believe that choosing to floss is legal and a personal choice you make. You have your reasons to do it and you can justify it any number of ways that can be substantiated in law and by your own values. For those who don't floss, I don't believe that they sit on their morally superior chairs looking down their noses at those who do floss. I believe that non flossers they truly care about the resource and the impact this technique will have on the entire fishery, not just the sockeye.
So here's the little bit of Hope that is lying at the bottom of Pandora's box:
Once upon a time before there was flossing no one caught sockeye. Fisherfolks put time and effort into coming up with ways to catch them. Hence, flossing was born. Now, there are some fisherfolk who are actively seeking a new way of catching them; one that doesn't involve a 9+ foot leader. And if enough people work at this and share information about their findings I believe a new technique for enticing sockeye to bite will be born. And therein lies some hope for mankind after all...
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#1 - I waould like to thank everyone for their votes and comments...one thing that shines thru is that most fishers here think that flossing should remain a tool to extract sockeye from the fraser...thankfully, there was only 2 votes for the floss anything that moves catagory...for all the debate and squabling back and forth, we all really aren't of that different a mind set!
I liked your post merc...I stated something similiar on another thread, indeed sockeye fishing is in its infancy and there is definitely room for it to evolve!
One thin I disagree with though - flossing is not legal, lets review the regs:
It is illegal too (bullet point from list): -wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring, northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid. To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth .
(Taken from: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/recfish/Law/restrictions_e.htm)
Someone who is flossing actively tries ("willfully") to run their line through the fish's mouth until the hook is pulled into the side of the face...thats why leaders are now 15 feet long (to increase the flossing action!!!). DFO continues to say that to avoid foul hooking, the angler should "induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth"...I think anyone who is resonable would interpret "in its mouth" to be anything but INSIDE, not in-the-side of the mouth, under the chin, on the nose, and all the other places a hook point meets a fish's face.
As well, we don't" induce" the fish into a bite so our action fails this test as well.
I know a person who set sockeye quotas for 6+ years. The fraser panels position is that sports impact is so light that they are a non factor on the sockeye runs (when strong or weak). For this reason, I believe they provide us this grace and allow us to snag sockeye. People need to realizze we have been granted a concession and we shouldn't abuse it by flossing other stocks, runs, or rivers.
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to address Fishfreak, I am the middle catagory, I really don't think flossing should be done outside of springs season. I would give up sockeye flossing to have bottom bouncers cleared off of rivers like the vedder, chehalis, stamp, seymour, and cap.
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Lets face it gang, ANYTIME a fish is hooked and it didnt STRIKE the presentation, it is SNAGGED. Flossing is snagging period. Regardless of where the hook lands, because the fish had no intention of hitting that hook and yarn it must have been snagged.
If your refer back to what dfo says, it confirms my statement: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
We all agree that 95% of the sockeye don't bite...if they dont bite then we snagged em, plain and simple.
A flossed fish wasnt induced into doing anything...it was in the wrong place when the hook flew by! let me ask you this fish freak, you see a coho sitting in a pool, you lower your hook below the fish's mouth and then snap your rod up. lets say the hook caught the fish under the chin...is its sangged? Of coarse it is. only difference between that example and the sockeye fishery it that the fraser river is what is powering your hook instead of you ripping the rod up but its still snagging all the same.
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I think maybe DFO needs to further define and separate snagging (th eact of hooking a fish that didn't bite) and foul hooked (hooking a fish anywhere beside the mouth)...it think they are 2 separate and distinct things that DFO needs to define much better.
BTW FF, I ahve told you guys a ton of times about my buddy who got a ticket for a flossed coho at the tamahi, he said it was hooked right through the max out side in (like many sockeye) and an undercover CO gave him a ticket for bonking it. Doesnt help that when you fish the tamahi, you are fishing seams more often than not and its easy to hold that line a little tighter than you should and sweep the drift a little.
Its all a matter of selective enforcement, why do you think enforcemenet isn't up on the cap where I coninutally find beaks with triple hooks, barbs, the whole works...CO's would rather have the beaks on the cap pounding a man made run opposed to having them on the squam, seymour, or some other "wilder" river.
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Lets face it gang, ANYTIME a fish is hooked and it didnt STRIKE the presentation, it is SNAGGED. Flossing is snagging period. Regardless of where the hook lands, because the fish had no intention of hitting that hook and yarn it must have been snagged.
If your refer back to what dfo says, it confirms my statement: To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.
We all agree that 95% of the sockeye don't bite...if they dont bite then we snagged em, plain and simple.
A flossed fish wasnt induced into doing anything...it was in the wrong place when the hook flew by! let me ask you this fish freak, you see a coho sitting in a pool, you lower your hook below the fish's mouth and then snap your rod up. lets say the hook caught the fish under the chin...is its sangged? Of coarse it is. only difference between that example and the sockeye fishery it that the fraser river is what is powering your hook instead of you ripping the rod up but its still snagging all the same.
True - but revealing poll results - the way I see it almost 80% of the folks here don't mind flossing for fish in this manner.
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Don't get me wrong, I do think flossing is snagging but if the sock run can take the pressure (and it can) then I don't mind it in this scenario. seems like most ( 27/52 votes) say floss the sockeye but nothing else...I think that is a workable position to work toward in BC!
I just want people to realize what exactly they are doing (snagging)...if they do, then I would hope they would minimise these activities on other rivers and at other times of the year.
I like my logging anology, clear cutting a forest is unacceptable practice in todays world, but clear cutting a forest infested with pine beetles is another story. Same sorta thing comparing a fishery like the vedder steelies (never should be flossed) VS the fraser sockeye (ok to floss a few).
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FF, the reason I want fishers to realize flossing is snaggin is so that they feel less inclined to go floss another river like the vedder. And as I pointed out with my logging anology, there is a time and a place for everything, you agree with me that flossing should stick to the fraser sock run.
I do think that the guys here on FWR represent a far superior fisher VS the average guy you see sockeye fishing...we understand the regs relatively well and yet some of us (you for example) think flossing is close enough to the mouth not to be considered foul hooked. all these other guys that don't know the regs and may actually think sockeye bite...they are truly the ones that need to be educated...they're the guys forming the meat lines at KWB and Lickman Rd etc...their the guys sweeping the drift, BBing, and running 5 and 10 foot leaders for steelhead!!!
To a degree you are right, a lot of the people here don't need to be educated on this issue, some do though. According to the web site, there are 1600 memebers here, if all the members here go out with the same message in their heads and share it with just a handful of other fisher on the bar that aren't so knowledgable then we will actually help to educate the masses and we may even help reduce flossing on other systems.
Maybe thats the difference between you and me, I do think we all can chip in a tiny bit but by the end of it all those tiny bits add up to a significant impact in the fishery. It needs to start with a consistant message and goal though...and thats were I come in ;)
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PS FF - I would have classified you as a hard core flosser last year, I don't know if my impressions were wrong but you don't seem quite that way this year...has your perspective changed since last season?!? Could that be attributed to what you read here and the knowledge shared between memebers you have been fishing with?!?! Just some food for thought ;)
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To me flossing is not snagging according to DFO. If it is, DFO would have ticketed every one left & right. If you want to see snagging, look at the natives at the Cap mouth with their treble hooks and the way the yank the rod repeatedly to try to hook the body of the fish. Sockeye fishermen aim the mouth, and try to catch the fish at the mouth.
I for one has caught many sockeyes (especially lately when Fraser is clearing) inside the mouth by bouncing with a slow, controlled release of the line at Pegleg (where it is relatively snag-free). The fish usually gets hooked towards the end of the drift when my line has the least swing action. At that point the betty is not bouncing and I keep on releasing line slowly to make an almost straight-line backward bounce slowly (at about 20-40 degree angle from shore). A little piece of red wool seems to get them interested instead of a big glob. When I did not release line, a high incidence of sockeyes are flossed with the hook outside in.
I am beginning to doubt the statement that some notable members are saying that the Fraser sockeyes don't bite categorically. How can they be so sure? Have they seen what happen down there at river bottom to make such emphatic statement? I have fished sockeyes since the fishery began, so I think I know what I am talking about. If sockeyes bite in other systems, why is it that the Fraser fish (of multiple stocks) don't bite your same presentation (a small wool) slowed down to the pace that they can see it at this level of water clarity lately?
Yes, I can shorten the leader to justify this claim, but firstly, I don't mind a flossed sockeye personally, and secondly, given the highly erratic bounces of the bettie, a longer leader should moderate the erratic movement of the wool, perhaps giving a slowly dancing form at the end of the long line, so that sockeye can be enticed to mouth it when it is close by where they can see it.
I am giving my observation of my recent catches not to justify anything, because I am at peace with flossing. It is just a curious observation of my own catch recently, using a slow down bouncing approach during this late period of clearing water. Are there similar observations out there? Even if you do not use my technique, has any one noticed that there are more sockeyes caught inside the mouth as the water is clearing up? If there is a general consensus that this is the case, perhaps it proves that Fraser socs do bite when they can see it with a slower presentation.
By the way, I don't encourage every one to try this approach as you can lose tons of betties & hooks by releasing line during bouncing. Many snaggy bars are not forgiving to this technique. Lower Pegleg seems to be the only safe spot to do this.
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Yes the sockeye do bite ocasionally, I have caught a spring on the retrieve this year and I have also caught maybe one sock in the mouth this season. You are right fun fish, a take like that comes at the end of the drift when there is little sweeping motion and the fish can actually see the yarn or corky infront of them...it dosnt happen often though and it never happens in the first 1/2 to 3/4 of your drift..
I want to focus on one thing you said: "Sockeye fishermen aim (for) the mouth, and try to catch the fish at the mouth". This is snagging by definition. If you read the regs as posted below they state: to avoid foul hooking, the angler should induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth. Reverse that: if a fish wasn't induced to take a hook in its mouth then it is foul hooked, its really that simple!!!!
Flossers don't induce a bite so their fish are snagged ( except for a very small portion that hit at the end of the drift).
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Where are the ethics in this fishery just step back on the bar and watch ::)
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I want to focus on one thing you said: "Sockeye fishermen aim (for) the mouth, and try to catch the fish at the mouth". This is snagging by definition. If you read the regs as posted below they state: to avoid foul hooking, the angler should induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth. Reverse that: if a fish wasn't induced to take a hook in its mouth then it is foul hooked, its really that simple!!!!
Flossers don't induce a bite so their fish are snagged ( except for a very small portion that hit at the end of the drift).
This is false logic, but I was never good enough at logic courses.
Basically "IF A then B" does not imply if "NOT A then NOT B"
From page 8 of the regs... Provincial definition of Foul Hook(snag):
snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body than the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately.
From page 9:
It is unlawful to... Snag (foul hook) fish (see definition,page 8). Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately.
From your quote:
"the angler should induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth."
Interestingly - not in the provincial regs...
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/documents/Fish%20Syn%20Front%20End.pdf
Federal regs.... http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/recfish/Law/restrictions_e.htm
"wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring, northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid. To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth. "
"Should aim", not MUST aim. Should is a suggestive verb. MUST would be the requiring verb. You don't see laws written that say you "should" wear seatbelts. They use words like MUST, mandatory, etc. not should.
If your boss says "we should have this project wrapped up tomorrow" do you feel that it MUST be? No, it is an expectation, not a requirement.
Until the law is clarified or challenged, this will continue to be a divisive issue among the recreational fishing community. Some clearer grammar on the part of the law writers would go a long way. >:(
If anyone has the FULL legal freshwater salmon regulations and can find these parts of the document. I'd be interested reading the words from there, rather than the "supplememnt" to which we have easy access.
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Its really not that difficult people.
Flossing Sockeye is snagging Sockeye.
Sure there may be millions of Sockeye but it wasnt many years ago that the Chinook were in trouble and how many Thousands of them are snagged on the river every year?
This fishery is a joke and just because fisheries lets it happen it doesnt mean its right.
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I have no interest to debate flossing ethics. DFO allows the fishery. They also put the rules in the book about illegal fishing techniques. I appeal to those who are not die-hard anti flossing fishermen to read the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law. DFO's allowing the fishery while they also prohibit snagging must point only to one thing, that they think the spirit of the law is justifiable for flossing (for whatever reason). There is also the danger when we take any text of book (including the holy scritpures of the world religions), and interpret it to the extreme. Wars & killings of even the innocents have been waged based on just the letter of the law. If you don't like the flossing in Fraser, then so be it. No words are sufficient to pursuade you. Even if Fraser sockeyes do bite in clearer water, you will still oppose to it because of the chaotic scenes out there and the possible consequence to spread to the smaller system.
By the way, Gooey, thanks for the observation. I also notice that in places where sockeyes are in the travel mode, they don't bite, much like coho & spring. If you find them in a staging area of rest, the incidence of hooking in the mouth increases. Lower Pegleg has that huge diagonal shallow ledge at the top as a barrier to migration, so I think a lot of fish pause below it, making it easier for them to bite. I also fish another exclusive spot above Rosedale with a formation which cause them to rest in front of the formation, and that is another spot there is a higher incidence of mouth-hooked sockeye lately. But that spot is quite snaggy inside, so we cast further out, then at about 60 degree, I start releasing the line and about 30-40 degree is where the fish gets hooked. Just an interesting observation of late.
I don't intend to challenge some notable members' idealogy, but this is factual observation by being on the river.
Tight line.
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I feel it is a waste of time to debate the legality of flossing. DFO fines people for snagging fish all the time. They allow flossing. That should be enough say about its legality. End of debate on that. But if the debate is ethics, then who is to say that your ethics on fishing is more superior than others. Your teachers of fishing in the past do not hold the crown on fishing ethics. Other fishers' teachers in the past may say use the most effective method allowed by law to catch your fish, but do use the most effective method. Try not come home empty-handed to disappoint the family, stupid. ;D
If sporting means making fishing more difficult to be more challenging or entertaining, or C&R only, then it is a view not shared by many fishermen. Why bend others' views as if yours are the only valid ones. ;)
I agree with BS, not every one carries the flossing gear to the Vedder. I didn't. Even if some one does, they will lose tons of gear and betties are not cheap. If they see short floaters catching fish often, they will switch their gear. None of my sockeye friends bb the Vedder.
I am ok with flossing because it is productive. It brings out the family. I love to see the whole family united in catching their dinner fare. It provides opportunities for fathers to spend time with their kids, even teenagers. If you ignore the high-sounding ethics issue, there are the pros for sockeye fishery. Would you rather see the fathers alone in the pubs instead, trying to hook into ..... ;D I rest my case.
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I am ok with flossing because it is productive. It brings out the family. I love to see the whole family united in catching their dinner fare. It provides opportunities for fathers to spend time with their kids, even teenagers. If you ignore the high-sounding ethics issue, there are the pros for sockeye fishery. Would you rather see the fathers alone in the pubs instead.
Well said. :D
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I love sitting back and reading all these posts.. don't you realize that you can't change anyones mind!! the people who floss will defend it till their blue in the face , those who call it snagging will bash you till they are blue in the face.. nothing comes from these disussions ... they just escalate until someone gets pissed and the thread gets closed.. same thing over and over.. all the same points being made over and over... funny stuff me thinks !!!
Rick just stating the facts as he sees em :)
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I love sitting back and reading all these posts.. don't you realize that you can't change anyones mind!! the people who floss will defend it till their blue in the face , those who call it snagging will bash you till they are blue in the face.. nothing comes from these disussions ... they just escalate until someone gets pissed and the thread gets closed.. same thing over and over.. all the same points being made over and over... funny stuff me thinks !!!
Rick just stating the facts as he sees em :)
You're absolutely right on Rick.
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I'm going to go and stick my head in the sand now (next to ricks) ;)
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Yeah yeah yeah :) tell you what though you can join me saturday morning for a lil fishing ... maybe carpool our way to the river ???
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Thickrick is quite right. No die-hards can convince other die-hards on the opposite side. It is the middle-ground people who are digesting and will make their choices. Otherwise, it is a waste of time, unless you have lots of time to waste. ;D
Come to think more about it, why are we trying to convince others to join our rank? ??? ??? ???
If the bar fishermen succeed to convince every one else to join their rank, then they will have to face lots of people fishing along side them without a room even to stick up your rod. Same goes with the flossing proponents. Who needs more lines crossing each other at the sockeye bars. ;D Folks, this is not just a waste of time, it can also lead to risking the loss of our favourite spot on the river. ;D ;D ;D
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The same types of debates where on my hunting forum with people saying that crossbows in bow season is unethical and all that jumbuliha. But the point there is in the end the general consensus ended up being hunting is hunting and lets stick together as a group instead of bickering amoungst ourselves.The same can be applied here , the method you use to catch fish is up to you and the regulations and limits for fish are there for a reason.you are only aloud your 2 socks or 2 cohos or whatever plain and simple and as long as the dfo does there research recreational fishing of any kind should not damage any run of fish. Now if the effects of flossing on the population of fish is not what troubles you then what is it?people aren't fishing the way you prefer so they must be forced to???? a ludicrous ideal . lets say (purely and example) me and my buddies from work don't think that women are rational enough to vote, so in turn they are not and the government should recall that right from women .......come on fishermen are fishermen and as long as we are not endangering the runs of fish cant we all just accept eachothers methods of FISHING
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Sorry ho whacker but no i cannot accept it when more and more people are taking the long leader and bottom bouncing that is the norm on the Fraser onto smaller systems such as the vedder , chehalis etc,i personally feel this type of fishing has negative impact on these systems and there is no place for it here,i am not trying to criticize you or anyone else for fishing the Fraser socks as long as it is a legal method as defined in the regs ,if people choose to fish them or not right now, that is a persons choice and thats fine,you can rationalize this type of fishing any way you choose but the bottom line is the overflow of the sockey mentality onto the smaller streams is not a positive in any way shape or form. :) :)
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Most of us who are flossing the Fraser do not want the betties & the long leaders used in the Vedder too. It comes with education and with helping our newbie friends to fish properly in the smaller system. BS is so right about the correct attitude. Instead of getting so pizzed by others' lack of skill, why not just take some newbies fishing & show them the trick. It does much more for fishing than yelling and belittling each other. I motion our great CG do a FREE short floating demonstration seminar at the Vedder during the coho season to set things right. :D Post this across various forums, or even set up some posters in the pouplar sockeye bars. How does that sound, Chris? ;D
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funfish I think that is a great idea! Not just Chris but alot of the members of this forum could help out as well. We could have it just downstream of KWB. We could see if any tackle shops can help with supplying some gear. It would also be a chance for the CR cleanup coalition to spread the word so to speak.
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I don’t use roe anymore for coho or steelhead. I used roe for more than 20 years amd I would on an annual basis easily land a hundred coho and fifty steelhead in a season. Did that make me a good fisherman? Was it sporting or challenging? In hindsight I would say not. I just made excellent roe that fish wanted to chew on. Fishing was easy and I looked like an expert catching lots of fish. I didn’t really challenge myself in any way because roe was my crutch and I didn’t evolve as a fisherman. Should roe be banned because it was so easy for me (and my friends) to catch fish with? No. Just because I don’t find it sporting to use roe does not mean others should stop using it too. Even though I have changed my fishing philosophy I do not wish to impose this philosophy onto other and belittle them because they don’t share my view.
Marmot and Merc made some excellent points earlier. Sockeye flossing does not make people lawbreakers or evil snaggers. We need to lighten up and agree that we have different points of view. No one is better or worse than anyone else. The floss mentality has moved to the Vedder but it’s done by mostly beginners who don’t know any better. There is no point in being condescending here to members who floss the Fraser because they’ve already said they don’t floss on the Vedder or Chehalis. Many even use centrepins. That point has been made clear in thousands of replies so give it a rest, please. As Funfish mentioned educating the beginners on short floating would be a great thing and everyone here should go out of his way to show beginners how to do it instead of cursing them for bottom bouncing the Vedder. Only then will you see positive changes.
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Shut the flossery down.Its not fishing.For all you guys that floss,shame on you.
I wouldnt dare post a pic of a spring that i snagged in the mouth all over the internet,And then to have it voted in as a pic of the month.Whats up with that???That poor fish diddnt bite it was snagged and the fisherman is proud of what he has done.
Just my 2 cents guys.The flossery does nothing good for the sport of fishing.
See this is exactly what I am talking about.. what the heck is the point?? we all know that you hate snaggers!! Yay !! good for you... do you think you made any sort of difference by posting it?? LOL other than giving me hillarious posts to read what point do you think you made???
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No actually give your head a shake, We are having fun fishing and talking with are buddies on the river . There is more than flossing to throwing your line out. Fishfreak on one hand has mastered the skill, And if I could hook 4 fish in 4 casts I would brag about it too ;D, There are also some very nice springs being caught and I would brag about that too, They sure taste awsome on the BBQ , and make for an awsome dinner with your freinds and relatives over mmmmmmm, mmmmmmmm,mmmmmmm
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Every single person who has posted on this thread is a quality short Float fisherman any other time of the year on any other system, you are generalizing and you are putting down many good people most I am sure you haven't even met before... and Roekid happens to be a very good fisherman who is very open to learning any new tricks, all of us respect the regulations and none of us fish outside of the law, if all you are going to do is get on this site and throw around insults I suggest you find a new site to Flame!!! You obviously have your own opinion.. and you have made it very clear how you feel, why keep rubbing it in everyones face.. I would never insult you , I don;t even know who you are , what gives you the right to come on this site and start insulting the members??? like I said you have your way of thinking.. using a long leader and no float is not illegal, if it was no one on this site would use this tecnique !!! The DFO says this is a legal way of harvesting Sockeye !! if you don;t like it then go and do something about the regs, until then go bitch somewhere else..
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(http://smilies.sofrayt.com/fsc/clap.gif) well some very good points here.i floss just for sockeye and dont even try for springs.(http://smilies.sofrayt.com/fsc/nono.gif) if they ban flossing i wont loose any sleep over it. to each there own good luck to all and sharp hooks cheers (http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/g0/beer.gif)