Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Spawn Sack on September 07, 2015, 05:20:21 PM
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Have had new (to us) jet boat for about a month now. Came with an Eagle Fishmark whatver f/f. Had nothing but issues with it so swapped it out for one my dad had lying around, a Hummingbird Matrix 10. It works okay I guess, but loses the proper depth quite easily once you start moving/cruising.
My dad only used this f/f for lake fishing and had no issues with it, however, he would keep it turned off when cruising, and only use it when trolling at a slow speed.
I printed the manual off online for the Hummingbird and am going to try and fart around with it a bit and hopefully get it working better. If no luck we're going to have to buy a new one as we don't know the Fraser well at all and like the added security of being able to get a bottom depth reading while cruising.
Wondering if ya'll have any recommendations for a solid f/f. Criteria is:
-will work well at cruising speed! I don't expect it to read the changing depth wide open at 40mph or whatever, but it does need to be able to read depth at "average cruising speed" (whatver that means :o)
-not be too terribly expensive. I dunno...under 500 bucks? More like 300-400 would be better.
-don't really care if it has 3-D side imaging and all that jazz. GPS function might be nice to see speed, save good fishing pots, save routes to diff spots on the river, and so on.
-not partial to any brand. I kind of like Garmin stuff. Have a Hummingbird Fishing Buddy that I quite like so I guess I like Hummingbird too (although the Matrix 10 is currently pissing me off).
Also, I think I would pay to have it installed. I like to do this kind of thing myself to save $, but if I get a brand new one all wired up and it does the same thing as the current one I think I'll lose my s**t! :o
Is there a place (preferably not terribly far from Chilliwack) that has a good rep for doing an A+ install on this type of stuff? I am new to boating and have no idea who to trust.
I've been looking through Steveston's catalouge at f/f's and the choices are pretty overhwelming!! Just looking for a solid, go-to f/f that a lot of guys use and like.
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I had a huge reply all typed out, but I deleted it and instead decided to select you a fishfinder. I played with this unit all weekend in saltwater and it was solid. Take a good long look at the Lowrance Elite-5x CHIRP fishfinder. Its a 5" colour screen with good frequency range and features. MSRP is $299 US for just the head unit, plus about another $100 for the transducer kit. If the Canuck buck hadn't taken such a dive, you could easily get into this for under your budget. Lots of places around town (Steveston Marine, Wholesale Sports) are able to get in Lowrance, but you have to specify fishfinder ONLY as they have other Elite-5 models with all the bells and whistles and you'll fall out of your chair at their prices!
http://www.lowrance.com/en-CA/Products/Fishfinder/Elite-5x-CHIRP-en-ca.aspx
Good luck on finding what you need and getting it wired correctly.
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I've been looking at the same ff. Seems like the best bang for your buck. You may also be able to find an elite-4 HDI for around $300 but not many places carry it. It's basically the same but in a smaller package.
One thing to check with your current fish finder is that it's getting clean power. Even an old unit should work at cruising speed. Mine was having the same issues as yours until I noticed that the PO wired the power in from the gauge cluster. I ran a line straight back to the battery and all is well. Worth a shot in the mean time. Running the transducer cable from the back of the boat with the other lines will do the same thing sometimes too, apparently.
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Humminbird Helix 5. I'd suggest you just get the sonar and GPS version. I got the Down Imaging and GPS. I find the down imaging hard to interpret and not as valuable for the types of fishing we do locally. I typically use the sonar with bottom-lock while I'm sturgeon fishing. If you dial in the sensitivity you will get nice clear images of sturgeon on the bottom like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/49XV6u6.jpg) (http://imgur.com/49XV6u6)
On top of that, having the GPS functionality allows you to mark spots where you get fish, or mark routes so you know where to run if you're travelling in fog or low light. I would not buy a fish finder without GPS. Skip on the down or side imaging, but don't skip on the GPS.
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Thanks guys. Both FF's look pretty sweet. I'll do some research on them and try to find a few reviews etc.
My current FF is wired up to the main battery. However, obviously, it is not the only thing hooked up to the + and - of this battery. I've through about adding another battery so the FF can have its own power. Could work, meh, who knows.
Honestly I'm kind of done dinking around with them. Spent hours farting with the Eagle the boat came with, concluded it was NFG. Spent several hours uninstalling the Eagle and installing this older-ish Garmin which we are currently using. It works and is an improvement but can't read bottom depth at low-mid cruising speed which peeves me off.
I'm going to try and move the transducer depth (not angle) up/down a bit (loosen off mounting screws and adjust) and see if that helps. If that does not fix it then I think I'll be ready to say F-it, buy a new decent one and pay a professional to install it. Maybe the way the wires are being run is causing issues. The transducer wire runs along the other wires on the driver's side, which apparently may cause issues, unfortunately that is the only sensible way I can see to do the wiring.
I would expect if I'm paying a couple hrs labor to have one installed they would guarantee that it will be able to continuously read bottom up to a certain speed? If I paid a bunch of money for a new unit, plus install fees, and it did the same thing as my current free-to-me cheapie I would be pretty angry!
Has anyone paid to have one installed and can recommend a good shop in the FV?
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Looking for any final recommendations before I go FF shopping.
I like the looks of the Lowrance Elite 5 with CHIRP and the Hummingbird Helix 5. I would lean towards the Hummingbird just because I have had a few on my smaller lake boat and I like the brand. But in the end it would come down to staff recommendation, price (possible sales), and so on.
I like the idea of the GPS but honestly the only thing that I REALLY care about is that the damn thing will show an accurate bottom depth at cruising speed. I have farted with the transducer height on my current older Garmin Matrix. Lowering it a bit seems to have helped a BIT, but it will still lose bottom once the boat is up on plane.
A few random thoughts....
-Will a shop only want to install a FF that you bought at THEIR store? For example buy one on sale at Wholesale, get installed at Cascade. Bad idea?
-Yes I can wire one up and install a new transducer so it will work. But I think I would have a nervous breakdown if I installed a new $500ish one and it had the same issues as they two FFs I've already had on our boat (that we've only had for a couple months!). Willing to leave this one to the pros.
-Would ya'll have a separate battery put in to run the new FF from? Current set up is FF runs off starting battery.
-Would a shop guarantee that your new model will read bottom up to a certain speed?
-Is it likely they will get the install bang on the 1st time, or might I have to bring the boat back for some "tinkering" of whatever (transducer height, etc). If it may need some tinkering I think I'll forget bring the boat to Stevenson's or wherever and stick to Chilliwack (Cascase, Venture, etc).
Just want the "best" place to do it. Or is it all the same and a piece of cake for any boat shop? Sorry for lame questions I'm just nervous about paying for a new spiffy FF + install and still having similar issues :o
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--the trouble with trouble shooting is just that. The problems you mention may exist with new finder.
--the solutions are as varied.
--using a dedicated batter is something I am conscidering as on my boat I already have 4 batteries as I am running a 24 volt bow mount electric.
--Adding another battery with weight and space just makes me nervous. I was thinking I may try a smaller Ni cad or lith as some have used on smaller boats. The hassle of charging. I have built in charging systems so would rig up something that I could charge the battery and disconnect once charged to keep it isolated from the other batteries.
--Looking forward to the day that light weight Lithium batteries come down in price. I picked up (not purchased) a 12 V at a trade show and they were shockingly light but the price was just as shocking.
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Haha well that is NOT what I wanted to hear! I would be beyond peeved off if I bought a new $500ish FF, and potentially paid to have it installed, and the stupid thing had the same issues as the current one! >:(
I think on my next days off I'll drive to Langley, check out some models at Steveston's and WSS, and also pop into Cascade and Venture in Chilliwack and see what they have to say/reccomend.
I don't expect a new one to read bottom wide open, but it would be nice if I could have some assurance, before I buy one, that there is a pretty good chance it will read bottom up to Xmph crusing speed. Is that too much to expect? ???
EDIT: I emailed a guide I know and asked him what he thinks about this. His reply was...
"...sounders are a pain in the butt, they are hard to setup right on a lot of boats. Problem is air gets under the transducer and it doesn’t read until it gets clean water with no air or you stop. Basically I don’t use mine for reading bottom when I am cruising only until I am actually fishing looking for a sturgeon spot do I pay attention to it.
You can try setting the transducer down a bit but then you risk having it knocked off by a floating object. Basically the deeper down the transom hull it is placed the better it will be able to read the bottom, less air.
You can take it to a shop if you’re not comfortable installing a new one but it really isn’t difficult, even if they do it you may end up with the same prob as now..."
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Your guide friend is telling you some good advice, particularly the part where you have to have the transducer mounted low on the transom. Air bubbles will affect the operation of the transducer as air is a poor medium for the signals generated by the transducer. Mount the transducer at least below the transom. Take a look at these pictures. Having it below the transom will put it into "cleaner" water when moving and give you a clearer picture of the bottom. The majority of transducers are hinged or have a mechanism that will release if they hit debris in the water, preventing damage. Depending on where you place it, it can be a PITA to pop it back into place. Use a paddle or a boat hook and you should be fine (unless you have a swim grid!).
(http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachments/marine-electronics-forum/122616d1278981805-hds-structurescan-transducer-install-skimmer-structurescan-ducers-4.jpg)
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I bought the dragonfly 7 and I couldn't be more satisfied, I bought the gps/finder while I was in power squadron because I got in on sale knowing I would get a boat soon. The shop at milltown marina installed it for me for around 250 bucks I had the same issues as you with my old finder on my small tin boat, it only worked at a dead stop or otherwise it was just completely scrambled. The dragonfly gives me almost a picture perfect view of the bottom, and you can split screen a live gps map with way points and routes, it came with navionics gold north America with a wealth of extra features, other users can place unknown hazards on the chart and when you update the charts in your computer the notes from others will be on your charts when your out boating, perfect for the ever changing river. Sometimes you have to pay to play but I honestly feel like you could not get a better value for the quality of the product
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so far I have seen quite a lot of fish on my hummingbird fishfinder (the black and white one). Never caught one so I dont know what the advantage is in knowing they are there
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I have a Humminbird 7something with gps and side scan. Might be a 798c? Anyway, I have replaced the gps puck twice now. The first one died after the warranty was up and there is no warranty on replacements. I won't be getting a Humminbird when this one is up for replacement. Everything else works okay, just the gps puck sucks. $150 apiece.
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You seem to be more concerned about the bottom tracking then anything else. That is mainly transducer depth, and the boat bottom needs to be smooth giving you clean water, Any fish finder will accomplish this.
I think GPS and charts are more important at this point in the game, you can explore with more confidants. Plus my best sturgeon holes were from looking at my chart on the gps.
What ever fish finder you get, make sure you get gps, and also buy charts for it.
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Yup you are correct. I'm new to the Fraser and as I explore new pieces of water it would give me more confidence to know if the water is going from, say, 9 feet, to 5 feet, to 3 feet, etc. Yes I know you should be paying more attention to the water, obstacles, looking for water that looks deep, and so on. I guess if I just can't get my current FF, or a new FF, to work as I'm hoping then I guess I'll just have to accept this and force myself to become more comfortable crusing around without a lock on bottom.
Honestly dont reeeeeally care that much about side imaging and all that jazz, however if I were going to buy a new one I figure I might as well get something half neat/cool. I would likely go fro something like the Helix 5 with GPS.
For now I think i'll just tinker with my current one as it seems there is only a marginal possibility that a new FF will read bottom at speed better than my current FF.
Appreciate all replies :)
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This is probably a dumb question but....
What exactly does sonar do on a FF? I understand what a GPS does (duh), I get the dual beam, side imaging and so on, but I don't really get what the sonar option does that as lower end model with no sonar will not do.
If I buy a new FF I know for sure that I want one with GPS, just not sure if sonar is something I "need" if it is an optional upgrade.
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Sonar is the basic sounding technology. Down Imaging (DI) and Side Imaging (SI) are the newer technologies. All entry level fish finders have "sonar".
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Thanks that's what I thought. Sorry for some reason I thought I saw some models that didn't say they were equipped with sonar.
Soooooo, looking on the Hummingbiord website, it looks like for my purposes I'd want to go with the "Helix 5 Sonar GPS"? (model in bottom left).
http://www.humminbird.com/Freshwater/Product-Category/Series/HELIX-5-Series/?p=1&ps=48
Here is the model if you click on it:
http://www.humminbird.com/Products/HELIX-5-SONAR-GPS/
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We purchased a garmin 95,sv it was around $1600 installed it myself works great
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(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-0/p206x206/19105_901631819888716_7334435704996944675_n.jpg?oh=3375171ba7f280ddb394851c0f4b79dd&oe=569A736C)
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(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11067608_901631876555377_2960811870926383816_n.jpg?oh=a3dc1a72fbb7cb80c49d51c29573e147&oe=56D0D1AD[img])https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1010152_901631903222041_9143576423474359546_n.jpg?oh=555ab844beaad89e32e913dd4ab62a5a&oe=569B1131[/img]
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Thanks that's what I thought. Sorry for some reason I thought I saw some models that didn't say they were equipped with sonar.
Soooooo, looking on the Hummingbiord website, it looks like for my purposes I'd want to go with the "Helix 5 Sonar GPS"? (model in bottom left).
http://www.humminbird.com/Freshwater/Product-Category/Series/HELIX-5-Series/?p=1&ps=48
Here is the model if you click on it:
http://www.humminbird.com/Products/HELIX-5-SONAR-GPS/
As I've mentioned before, I have the Helix 5 DI/GPS and I do love it. However, I probably could have gone with the Sonar/GPS combo and been equally happy. I am not finding the down-imaging all that easy to interpret or useful. Make sure you get the Navionics chip for the finder if you buy the GPS version.
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I never did buy a new fish finder last fall. Just made do with the glitchey old Garmin. I would, however, like to have a new FF for fishing this year. With the Vancouver boat show coming up, I'm hoping to score a good deal on either the Hummingbird Helix 5, or Lowrance Elite 5 CHIRP. Seems these are the two best picks in my price range ($500ish).
I figure Cabelas (.ca) is always a good start to see what the going rate is.
The bare bones, sonar only, Helix 5 is $279.99. The one I'm leaning towards is the Sonar/GPS combo for $409.99. The price keeps going up if you want down imaging (DI),or the top of the line model with DI and SI. I think the Sonar/GPS model will more than suit my needs.
Also, for another $100, you can get the sonar/GPS model with the Nav+ chip. Can anyone comment to the usefulness of this chip? All I really want to be able to do is plot routes on the river, and mark "good spots" (sturgeon hole or whatever). I don't care if I have maps of lakes.
Whatever GPS I end up buying the primary goal is to have it work at slow cruising speed. My current FF is all over the place at anything faster than just in gear. Seems most river boater's FF reads bottom at slow cruising speed. I want to be able to cruise slowly through different channels and known what the bloody depth is! I'll be pretty disappointed if the new FF fares no better than the old black and white cheapy. Anyway, in addition to this I would like to be able to use the GPS for it's most basic functions: read speed, mark some fishing spots, plot a few routes on the river.
I'm not ruling out the Elite 5 CHIRP. Online reviews are about as solid as the Helix 5, and price is in the same range ($530.99 from Cabelas).
I'll have to see what kind of deals are floating around at the boat show.
If anyone has any last thoughts on the Hummingbird vs the Lowrance, or any comments on this FF purchase I'd like to hear it.
http://www.cabelas.ca/category/sonargps-combos/2393?pagesize=60&orderby=5
http://www.cabelas.ca/category/maps-charts/2395
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Also, for another $100, you can get the sonar/GPS model with the Nav+ chip. Can anyone comment to the usefulness of this chip? All I really want to be able to do is plot routes on the river, and mark "good spots" (sturgeon hole or whatever). I don't care if I have maps of lakes.
The Nav+ chip is pretty damn handy. I have the Helix 5 DI/GPS (I would recommend the model you are looking at though). The maps are very useful for plotting out a course or finding sturgeon spots. I also use the GPS to plot my course on rivers so that I can follow it in thick fog or low-light conditions. I mounted the transducer on a suction cup mount so that I can switch the finder from my 16' Jon boat to my 10' pram with easy. On the lakes the Nav chip helps locate shoals, deep spots, etc. However the level of detail is not high, so don't expect it to pin-point the drop off.
***If you do use the suction cup mount, ensure you use the safety strap that clips onto the transducer cable. It was an expensive mistake when I didn't use it and the suction cup released while driving at speed and the transducer cable ripped out of the back of the Fishfinder head unit and both the transducer and suction cup sank to the bottom of the Fraser.
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http://www.amazon.ca/Lowrance-MARK-4-HDI-200-455/dp/B00FPQYGMC
There is one of these at the Canadian Tire store in Langley on clearance for $229.00 - might be an awesome way to get your feet wet with navi and DI.
Upgrade if/when you feel ready to move to the big leagues and still get $100-$150 back when you sell it to upgrade.
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Thanks guys, esp DionJL :)
Well, I think I'll likely buy the Helix 5, sonar/GPS model, with the Nav+ chip. Cabela's has it on for $509.99, so if I find a sweet deal at the boat show coming up I'll likely buy one. Most reviews of this unit are very good, but most say the GPS is pretty useless without the Nav chip. The Elite 5 CHIRP is also very highly reviewed, however with the nav chip I'll be a fair bit over budget, so I think I'll give it a miss.
DionJL, so with the Helix 5 and the Nav chip, does it show you depth charts? Apologies this is probably not the correct navigational jargon ??? You know...where you can see the depth contours, "deep spots" and so on? Will the GPS show this in rivers, in particular the fraser? Or is it more for lake fishing?
Also, I'm curious if you get an accurate reading of bottom with this unit at cruising speed? My main reason for replacing the existing FF, and I know this is kind of lame, but it always loses bottom as soon as you get moving. Can't even get a lock on bottom putting at very slow speed >:( I've dinked with transducer depth, angle, and so on with little effect. But, what's funny, is if I take the boat in a clear LAKE, say Chilliwack, it reads bottom FINE! Like almost up to WOT. Yeah. So, I'm hazarding a guess that this older unit, with wussy power compared to new ones I'm looking at, struggles to zap through the dirty Fraser.
However, it will read just fine barely moving or anchored, so I could be out to lunch on this theory. I'll just have to take a chance on a new unit and hope that get better bottom reading out of it.
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DionJL, so with the Helix 5 and the Nav chip, does it show you depth charts? Apologies this is probably not the correct navigational jargon ??? You know...where you can see the depth contours, "deep spots" and so on? Will the GPS show this in rivers, in particular the fraser? Or is it more for lake fishing?
Yes you get bathymetric contours in most lakes and large rivers plus the ocean.
Also, I'm curious if you get an accurate reading of bottom with this unit at cruising speed? My main reason for replacing the existing FF, and I know this is kind of lame, but it always loses bottom as soon as you get moving. Can't even get a lock on bottom putting at very slow speed >:( I've dinked with transducer depth, angle, and so on with little effect. But, what's funny, is if I take the boat in a clear LAKE, say Chilliwack, it reads bottom FINE! Like almost up to WOT. Yeah. So, I'm hazarding a guess that this older unit, with wussy power compared to new ones I'm looking at, struggles to zap through the dirty Fraser.
I get readings when moving, but not when on plane. But at least with the contour maps you have some idea what the depth you are in. I think the technology has been refined so a newer finder can likely pick out "noise" from solid bottom readings more readily. That said, I haven't ever been overly concerned with depth readings while travelling at speed; my jet can run in very shallow water when on plane and if I did get stuck, it's light enough one or two guys could drag it off of a gravel bar. You also aren't going to get reasonable readings in anything shallower than a couple feet.
Edit to add: Check Steveston Marine for the finder. They had a sale going last year when I grabbed mine.
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I got the Lowrance Elite 4 not long ago and absolutely love it. The 5 is pretty much the same internals but with a bigger screen so I can pretty much vouch for that too. Like you, I wasn't sure how much I'd use the GPS and maps but now that I have them I consider them must haves. I fish solo a fair bit so it's really nice to be able to just follow a contour line when trolling and not have to constantly jump back to adjust the down rigger when I'm fishing the bottom. So far I don't really use the down scan much but I've been in mostly salt water since getting it. CHIRP works considerably better than the standard modes, at least where I've been fishing so far. Enjoy your new toy!
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Thanks a lot guys. So I was in Steveston Marine yesterday. They had the Lowrance Elite 5 CHIRP (sonar/GPS/ and DI) with the Nav + Chip. Reg $699 on sale for $599.
I ALMOST bought it but I wasn't 100% sure if I wanted it over the Hummingbird Helix 5 with Nav + chip from Cabelas for $509.99.
One thing I found a bit confusing is there are several different "grades" of Nav chip. They did not have a Helix 5 in stock so I could look at both boxes side by side and see if one appeared to have a "better" chip than the other. Meh, I'm guessing they both come with the "standard" chip which is likely more than sufficient for my needs.
I find it a bit difficult trying to compare the Helix 5 and Elite 5 CHIRP head to head. Clearly they are pretty comparable and seem to have similar capabilities if you read their spec sheets. The guy at Stevestons recommended the Lowrance as, in his opinion, it is more user friendly. Also, for another 90 bucks I get the down imaging. Now ppl seem to say the DI is at times difficult to interpret, but it is one more gimmick to fart around with which I like :D
Any one have any last thoughts on the Hummingbird vs the Lowrance? My plan is to hope to score a good deal at the boat show and if no luck buy the one in Stevestons (if still in stock :o)
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--for sure let us know what you end up with...would be great if they have a compare at the boat show.
--I would go with the best chip available... I use the gold as at the time it had the best detail on fresh water lakes in BC. Some have coast salt and fresh seperate so depends on where you are going to use it.
--I use the nave all of the time... even on lakes that I know well but it really helps to dial in on lakes or areas being fished for the first time.
--I did find that on some areas the positioning was not accurate by as much as 50 meters but I think there is a way to calibrate the system to get it on track.
--Was interesting using on lakes that I have fished and had a good idea of where I would catch fish. Using the chart to find similar drop off or features in other parts of the lake.
--I don't have down image yet but expect it is going to be a bonus for the same reason... identify structure of areas where you have been succesful in the past and try to find similar areas. I believe this is going to be as much of an improvement for me as the navi charts were.
--I need a new unit for this season and the season starts for me near end of the month.
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http://www.cabelas.ca/product/73883/humminbird-859ci-hd-combo
$549 on blowout
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I bought one yesterday at the boat show. Got the Hummingbird Helix 5, the Sonar/GPS model and it came with the Navionics Gold card. Wouldn't say I got a smoking deal, $480 with is about 30 bucks off the going rate.
Decided against the Elite 5 CHIRP for a couple reasons. First, they are discontinued and the only ones left were models I didn't want (SI and DI). Apparently the new Lowrance is called HOOK or something like that. Steveston's etc did not have them for sale yet.
Also, the CHIRP transducers are MASSIVE! I was looking at the one that came with the DI/SI model, and well as the one that came with the Raymarine Dragonfly. Shaped like a banana! My boat does not have a swim grid to cover/protect it, and I can totally see some bonehead smucking it. Not a bit deal if it gets smucked up/down, but laterally it could snap off. I realize it's function over fashion here, but I just didn't like the CHIRP transducers.
Not going to install it until spring. Looking forward to trying it out!
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This one looks sweet. However it seems to have pretty much the same "guts" (transducer, etc) as the Helix 5. Also, where I mount my FF near the windshield on my boat a 7 inch screen would be too jammed in. My Helix 5 also came with the Nav Gold card :D
Thanks though this is a smoking deal on this unit.
http://www.cabelas.ca/product/73883/humminbird-859ci-hd-combo