Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Spawn Sack on October 20, 2013, 08:10:14 AM
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Just wondering what type of knots ya'll are using for your flouro leaders. Seems most people just use a good ol' improved clinch knot with no issues. However if you look at which knots the manufacturers reccomend, it is usually the palomar, trilene, etc. "Knot Wars" is a cool phone app where they test different knots and show you how to tie them. The imp. clinch is not one of their reccomended knots for flouro.
I rarely use flourocarbon learders due to the price and I find it breaks off a lot more easily than mono of the same lb test, and usually breaks at the knot. For example when the water was a bit higher/colored I was using mainly Maxima UG or Berkley XT leader in 10 or 12 lb depending on the current speed and had no issues bringing in several big springs and coho. Didn't snap a single leader except the odd foul hook then it was me who straightened my rod and purposely snapped it off. However the last couple days I've broke my 8-10lb flouro leader on a fish (mainly coho) hooked in the mouth and I KNOW that same lb test mono would not have broke >:(
It's frustrating as I believe I'm getting into more fish because of the flouro (due to either a confidece boost or the fact that it's less visible, or a bit of both), but I'm breaking off more fish and am less confident to put the brakes on a hot fish and haul it in.
Getting back on target to the knots :o I tied the palomar with flouro with good results, however I can't tie it to a swivel already on the mainline as it has to go over and around what you're tying it to. Works fine if, say, tying onto a swivel from your mainline (on a tangent I use the palomar witrh braid to swivel and find it to be the best braid knot). I tried the trilene knot and a few other knots I found on Knot Wars (Youtube, good stuff) but either found them too hard to tie (esp with cold hands) or they broke off with a fish on.
I've gone back to the imp.clinch as I have the most confidence in it and can tie it in my sleep. I've been trying to make sure the knot is extra wet and really making sure it's coiled up nice and tight. Still I find my flouro is breaking at the knot when mono would knot.
Maybe I need to try a different brand? I've been using Berkley Vanish, only reason I have it is I won it in a draw ??? I've heard Seaguar Blue Label is the best and has better knot strength than the rest. If anyone has tip for flouro to swivel knots and their brand of choice that would be awesome. Also I have not had any issues with the baitloop knot breaking, just the line to swivel knot.
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people who use floro a lot - tournament anglers for example - often state the basic clinch works better than the improved. My experience with Vanish is that does not have the knot strength of some better floros. Fluorocarbon, even the 100% stuff comes in various grades and qualities. Not all Seagar is the same. I have better success with P-line than Vanish. The various floro leaders aimed at the fly fishing segment seem to be very good but expensive. I am not a big fan of floro and find whatever it's advantages they seldom justify the cost.
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--if you don't need the swivel to go though your guides then polimar a small coastlock on to your leader and use it to attach to the swivel on your main line. If you don't want added weight use Aquateko invisaswivel which is also made of fluorocarbon.
--the best fluoro will still break at the knot if not lubricated when tightening... usually surprisingly easy to break so quick tug before casting will usually cause it to break if it is going to.
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I just use a standard clinch knot and an egg loop for the hook. Landed 6 coho yesterday with no issues. 12 seaguar fluro is my leader of choice
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people who use floro a lot - tournament anglers for example - often state the basic clinch works better than the improved. My experience with Vanish is that does not have the knot strength of some better floros. Fluorocarbon, even the 100% stuff comes in various grades and qualities. Not all Seagar is the same. I have better success with P-line than Vanish. The various floro leaders aimed at the fly fishing segment seem to be very good but expensive. I am not a big fan of floro and find whatever it's advantages they seldom justify the cost.
Interesting about the regular clinch outperforming the imp.clinch. I'll tie up a few in my garage and perform a few break tests and see how the knot performs.
I agree the advantages seldom justify the cost. 99% of the time I use mono leaders. However I find when fishing for picky, arrogant, stuck up coho in frog water I like to fish as stealthy as possible so I dig out my clear floats, small split shot, hooks, and swivels, and (groan) flouro leader. Whether it's all in my head or not I do seem to get into more fish with this approach. The rest of the time it's foam floats, pencil lead, mono leaders etc and I have no issues.
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--if you don't need the swivel to go though your guides then polimar a small coastlock on to your leader and use it to attach to the swivel on your main line. If you don't want added weight use Aquateko invisaswivel which is also made of fluorocarbon.
--the best fluoro will still break at the knot if not lubricated when tightening... usually surprisingly easy to break so quick tug before casting will usually cause it to break if it is going to.
I don't need my swivel to go through the guides. With this rig I'm fishing float to weight + swivel, then leader to hook. I've tried a simiar idea to the coast lock by tying a palomar to a duo-lock swivel, then attaching the duo-lock to the barrel swivel on my mainline. I found the leader seemed to get wrapped up more often than fishing just a barrel swivel, so I stoped doing that. I also find that the palomar is hard to tie with flouro. The knot needs to sit a certain way and flouro seems to give me a lot of issues, esp with cold hands. With braid I have no issues it slides together perfectly. It's a small knot and doesn't look strong...oh but it it is! This summer we were jigging for some massive hailbut in Prince Rupert and my Dad gave me a hard time about my wimpy looking palomar connecting our braided mainline to the rig. He prefers to tie this massive Berkley Braid knot that ends up with 2 tags ends. He bet me $5 my knot would break with a big fish on but never did even hauling up a beast halibut in the 150lb range (released by the way).
Also I'll check out that invisiswivel and good tip to give the leader a good tug before casting to check knot strength. Nerver had to do this with mono but with flouro not a bad idea.
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I just use a standard clinch knot and an egg loop for the hook. Landed 6 coho yesterday with no issues. 12 seaguar fluro is my leader of choice
So you don't pass it through one more time like the improved clinch? Just a regular clinch hey? You're the second person to mention this so I'm going to try it out.
Are you using the SeaGuar Blue label? Apparently that's their best leader line but gawd it's expensive :o
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used regular clinch my whole time fishing and rarely does it break at the knot unless I manipulate my rod too (ie snags) even then the leader will snap at the mid. using 8lb blue label seaguar and I've landed plenty of springs and ho's
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vanish is garbage, buy a qualty 100% flouro or you'll be turned off the stuff forever, i use the seagaur stuff in 10lb and havnt had a break off on a coho this year yet, ive also used the stren stuff with good results in the steel season be sure to lube your knots well and tighten slowly or you'll get friction burn and it will break every time, good flouro costs a bit but its worth it under the right conditions.
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used regular clinch my whole time fishing and rarely does it break at the knot unless I manipulate my rod too (ie snags) even then the leader will snap at the mid. using 8lb blue label seaguar and I've landed plenty of springs and ho's
Can you or anyone speculate why the regular clinch would be better than the improved clinch for flouro? Not doubting just curious why this may be.
Just to make sure it's not the improved clinch you're doing here is a link to it.
http://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/improved-clinch-knot/
I've heard some people refer to an improved clinch as a clinch knot, when in fact a clinch knot does not have the extra step at the end of passing the line through twice before tightening.
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less friction when tightening down the knot.
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less friction when tightening down the knot.
I'll try the Seaguard Blue label. No wonder I won the Berkley Vanish it sounds like crap and the shop probably didn't want to sell it to customers, haha! "Here, put this in the draw, getting too many complaints from ppl buying it...let's get rid of it..." :o
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I used the trilene instead of the clinch or improved clinch for years and never had it break at the knot (I flyfish, though I am not sure that would make much of a difference). It is as easy to tie as the clinch and much stronger due to the double wrap through the hook eye. That is it's one downfall as it may be tough getting it through the eye of the hook if you are using a large line diameter to hook eye size ratio. I now use the non slip loop knot 90% of the time while fly fishing (imparts more action to the fly) and never have any issues with it, but you have to make sure you are lubricating whatever knot you tie prior to tightening.
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I used the trilene instead of the clinch or improved clinch for years and never had it break at the knot (I flyfish, though I am not sure that would make much of a difference). It is as easy to tie as the clinch and much stronger due to the double wrap through the hook eye. That is it's one downfall as it may be tough getting it through the eye of the hook if you are using a large line diameter to hook eye size ratio. I now use the non slip loop knot 90% of the time while fly fishing (imparts more action to the fly) and never have any issues with it, but you have to make sure you are lubricating whatever knot you tie prior to tightening.
I've tried the trilene knot but didn't like it. Could have been operator error but I found the knot busted a lot. For me it's improved clinch all the way whenver using mono. Same as you for all my flies I use a non-slip loop knot and have never had that knot bust.
I always lube the crap out of my knots before tightening, tighten slowly, and make sure the knot is sitting snug. I'm starting to think this Berkley Vanish is just crappy flouro. I'm kind of surprised as I've used Berkley XL on my spinning reels for decades with no issues, Berkley XL for leaders on springs/chum etc with no issues, and Big Game as a main line on baitcasters with good results (although I've converted to P-line CXX-Xtra strong. However googling "berkley vanish flourocarbon reviews" it seems that it mainly gets poor reviews.
If the water stays this low/clear I'll try the Seagar Blue Lable. Whadathink...8lb? I've used 8lb mono in low/clear water tons on my lighter rod with good results.
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I feel better using 10 lb, flouro has a smaller diameter than mono and you can go up a few lbs on it with no difference really.
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Can you or anyone speculate why the regular clinch would be better than the improved clinch for flouro? Not doubting just curious why this may be.
Just to make sure it's not the improved clinch you're doing here is a link to it.
http://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/improved-clinch-knot/
I've heard some people refer to an improved clinch as a clinch knot, when in fact a clinch knot does not have the extra step at the end of passing the line through twice before tightening.
well I stand corrected its the improved clinch im using...always thought the imptoved clinch was where you pass the line through the eye twice to and then do the wraps
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Thank you for clairifying mvelasco. As I'm sure you realize a standard clinch knot is just 5 or however many wraps then through the eye - done. Whereas the improved clinch passes the line through 2 loops as in the net knots video. Depending on how it's tied pasing the line through the swivel/lure eye twice can we the trilene knot or if it's finished like a uni knot it's often called the fish-n-fool knot.
Anyway I'll try an improved clinch with some Seaguar Blue label and hope that the knot busting issues I have been experiencing as a result of the crap Berkley Vanish flouro I've been using.
For braid IMO palomar is #1 for line to lure/swivel. I've found the imp.clinch can slip out. For braid attaching to mono modified albright is #1 IMO. I used to use a double uni knot but the M/I seem to have better breaking strength.
If anyone is thinking of buying Berkley Vansish F/C I would say don't bother I've tried several knots with it and yes I lube them well, tighten them slowly, and make sure they are sitting perfect at the end before I clip the tag end and STILL I've been busting off 10 and 12lb like it's fly tying thread. Totall crap line. >:(
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I had some 6lb vanish that I used for trout fishing, in my experience it really does have poor knot strength. I broke off quite a few hooks even when using a light hookset with circle hooks. I use the improved clinch knot for almost all applications with mono/flouro. My experience with seaguar has been quite good, I've dragged it through sharp rocks/ barnacles and it has frayed but never broken off.
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So you don't pass it through one more time like the improved clinch? Just a regular clinch hey? You're the second person to mention this so I'm going to try it out.
Are you using the SeaGuar Blue label? Apparently that's their best leader line but gawd it's expensive :o
ya ive never been a fan of the "improved" clinch knot i find i cant quite do it perfect to not get a little wrinkle in the leader, i use the blue its pricey tho like 13$ for 25yds.. been good for me this year over 10 coho on 3 trips.
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well I stand corrected its the improved clinch im using...always thought the imptoved clinch was where you pass the line through the eye twice to and then do the wraps
You're referring to the Trilene knot.
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trilene knot for me. Blue label seaguar, just wet your god damn line and u will never break off unless ur really horsing in the fish. Either my mainline breaks or bait loop knot breaks whenever i snag up on something which is NOT cool. Proves how strong the damn knot is and i can go weeks on the same leader without breaking even after 30springs....the abrasion resistance is top notch compare to mono.
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After lots of problems I now have consistent success with fluorocarbon by:
- lubing the line as I tighten the know (I actually dip the line in water)
- use 12 pound fluoro - lighter was not reliable for me on the Vedder, even on coho
I now use the fluorocarbon leaders all the time, no matter water clarity weather etc
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trilene knot for me. Blue label seaguar, just wet your god damn line and u will never break off unless ur really horsing in the fish. Either my mainline breaks or bait loop knot breaks whenever i snag up on something which is NOT cool. Proves how strong the damn knot is and i can go weeks on the same leader without breaking even after 30springs....the abrasion resistance is top notch compare to mono.
Isn't your leader supposed to break before your main line?
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Isn't your leader supposed to break before your main line?
exactly......my mainline has always been the weakest link. i never break off at the knot on the mainline it breaks off somewhere else where it has been frayed or chip when i don't pay attention lol. and yes my mainline is heavier than my leader...i always question it but i always know the reason why it snap and why i am always lazy to fix it
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exactly......my mainline has always been the weakest link. i never break off at the knot on the mainline it breaks off somewhere else where it has been frayed or chip when i don't pay attention lol. and yes my mainline is heavier than my leader...i always question it but i always know the reason why it snap and why i am always lazy to fix it
sounds like you need stronger main line then... It was always my understanding the whole reason you have a leader (or at least one of them) is so you only lose it, and not big hunks of main line. Fishing line isn't exactly the best thing to be leaving in the rivers/lakes, it can be hazardous to the fish and it creates something else to get snagged on.
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sounds like you need stronger main line then... It was always my understanding the whole reason you have a leader (or at least one of them) is so you only lose it, and not big hunks of main line. Fishing line isn't exactly the best thing to be leaving in the rivers/lakes, it can be hazardous to the fish and it creates something else to get snagged on.
Yes your leader "should" break and not the mainline, but the odd time, much to my annoyance >:(, my mainline will snap off. Likely reason is the mainline had a nick or weakness somewhere and I had a new fresh leader on. I generally try to run a leader at least 5lb less than my mainline eg. 17lb mainline and max 12lb leader. After a day of hard fishing I usually cut 5-10 feel of my mainline and retie everything so nice fresh mainline is conencted to the swivel. Usually the piece I cut off feels a bit rough and I'm sure is at less that it's rated break strength. I started using Pline CXX-Xtra strong mainline this year after a lot of guys on this forum reccomended it and IMO it is tougher that Maxima UG and seems to be more resistant to fading/hazing. By now I'd be on my second spool of UG but I'm still using the spool of CXX I put on my reel at the start of the season and it still looks and performs great. Will change out before steelhead season though ;)
Thanks for the tips on flouro and knots guys! I threw that damn Berkley in the TRASH just so I'm not tempted to cheap out and use it. Gonna pick up some Blue Label before I go out next time. I'll report back with my results.
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Since we are discussing fluorocarbon here, perhaps a meeting of the minds of the fluro pros can enlighten the members here:
1) If you use braided main line, do you find using a length of fluorocarbon where the float is (between braided line and the swivel to the leader) helps with more hookups besides just using fluorocarbon leader?
2) Since fish cannot see fluorocarbon, do you find using lighter fluro leaders give you more hooks than heavier one, like 10 lb compared to 12 or 15lb fluro leader? Since you can hook a spring at times when you target coho, it may be less likely to lose your leader and hook on a heavier leader than a light one. But this is only beneficial if using heavier leader does not affect hookups.
3) Since fish cannot see fluorocarbon, does the leader length matter? Say 12" compared to 18 or 24 or 36"? Do you find any advantage with extra long fluorocarbon leader?
4) Do you find anything other than Seaguard Blue Label reliable? I use 20lb Blue Label for that 6 ft length between my braided power pro and the swivel so my float is sliding on this length. I often wonder if using mono for this length can affect hooking efficiency as I mention in point 1). Blue label is expensive. Do you find other brand adequate besides the obvious junky Varnish?
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Use mono for above the swivel its cheaper, as for heavier flouro I use 10-12 find it no different than using 8lb either than peice of mind as for leader length i go a little longer so the gish arent spooked by the weights but with a longer leader sometimes quick bites arent picked up, also I've found the 100% flouro stren line to be pretty good as well.
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For some strange reason that I can't explain, I have more breakoffs with a double Clinch knot when using fluorocarbon than I do with a single Clinch knot. But, I am fanatical in making sure the knot is well moistened and tightened completely. With mono I always use a double Clinch knot because a single Clinch knot will usually slip. That doesn't seem to happen with fluorocarbon. And, unlike mono, a simple over-hand knot doesn't seem to weaken fluorocarbon too much.
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--I'm not a fan of fluoro but I use it.
--As i do not use it often I buy the best I can find.
--For Fly fishing I am usually using it with spookey fish clear water.
--Stiff so can helps using smaller diameter to turn over a fly with tapered leader.
--Sinks for use in deep water chironomid fishing.
--What I don't like about it.... knot break is an issue... even with the best line... little mistake in tying on my part and it will fail... I compensate by always giving it a good tug before using so hopefully any mistake stays in the boat or on shore.
--It doesn't break down when exposed to the elements well so if you do lose some it will be out there for a long while
--It is very toxic process to make so only a few factories world wide make it. Workers need to be seperated from all fumes which is costly.. that is what scares me with manufacture in countries that have weak worker rights or environmental law... Japan and Germany seem to have the best record for producing for top brands in a safe enviroment. But some are hard to trace where they come from.
--What I am saying is when I can stand the guilt of using it, I use it sparingly and explore other options first.
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Skaha brought up a good point about ALWAYS testing a knot before using it. It doesn't take too long to learn how much tension will break a line and a few sharp tugs will test your knots FIRST. It's better to break it in your hands then on a fish.
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Have to agree a good idea and I never do this. Never really had to using mono leaders...but with flouro seeing as it's so "knot sensitive" from now on if I'm fishing it I'll be sure to give my knot one last check before fishing it by giving it a couple solid tugs.
Going to be going with the improved clinch and some bluelabel likely in 12lb.
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I use Seaguar Tatsu. It's really good stuff.
Comes in a 200 yard spool. Heck of a lot cheaper than buying 25 yard leader spools.
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Yeahhh...true always cheaper to buy in bulk...but for the amount of times I'll actually use the line I'm probably fine buying 25 yards at a time. Right now I'm 99% short floating and almost never snag up. Eventually when the water levels rise I'll go back to using mono leaders as it's waht I have the most confident in and it's a HECK of a lot cheaper!
I thought the Tatsu was more of a mainline? Seems most Seaguar lovers reccomend the Blue Label as #1 for leaders.
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As far as I know, fluorocarbon is fluorocarbon. It's like how they have leader spools of Maxima UG. The smaller spool is just for ease of transport in your vest. Either way, Tatsu is high quality stuff. Haven't had any issues with it. Give it a try! You might like it.
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not all the same, 100% flouro is the way to go, co polymer stuff is garbage for leaders.
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not all the same, 100% flouro is the way to go, co polymer stuff is garbage for leaders.
What I had meant was that the line is the same regardless of whether it comes in leader sized spools of 25 yards or 200 yard filler spools. Tatsu is 100% fluoro.