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[skaha]

--Not there yet but I'm starting to buy into the idea that Salmon Ranching as the phrase has been coined, has many of the same problems as open pens (in the wrong place). We just don't easily see the problems so to many they don't exist.
--I want to see a diverse and sustainable fish industry in BC... so we should be consentrating our efforts into how to do so rather than just closing our eyes and saying no, no, no.

--flooding our rivers with hatchery stock to free graze with no control in the open ocean could... spread disease....these masses of hatchery stock could wipe out natural runs at time of spawn.... could be over competing for open ocean food supply... depleting our Herring stocks etc.

--why do we need such large scale projects... why would we use the Frazer for rearing. why not use some smaller coastal water sources for hatchery raised (fish ranching) including specialty stock abundance for sport harvest industry... some already exists with smaller hatchery supplement. 

--why don't we pick... with industry help "the best open net pen farm" and study the hell out of that one to see if it is in deed viable. then make an informed none gold rush decision as to how many and where they could be

[aquapaloosa]

aquapaloosa, I'm not talking about individual economics here.

Sorry for my late reply, I misunderstood your statement about the "grow your own salmon over there".

Myself as a salmon farmer still see it as a bit ridiculous.  The logistics involved, well I do not think we are there yet.  Closed containment is a long ways away ever for us here where we have far more access to water.  I see what you are getting at though and your idea has some merit though salmon in not a good choice of species.  There are many trout farms all across the interior of north America though doing just as you suggest.

[shuswapsteve]

adriaticum,

True, the days of supplying folks here or abroad with commercially caught BC wild salmon is not what it used to be, but there is more to it than that.  One thing you need to remember is the allocation of the resource and the pecking order for the various stakeholders.  For instance, recreational fisheries for salmon (i.e. Sockeye) will open once DFO establishes that conservation and FSC needs are met.  Conservation objectives (and additional objectives in the future) can curtail commercial and recreational fisheries.  These conservation concerns could be endangered stocks like Cultus Sockeye and Interior Fraser Coho.  Many Upper Fraser Chinook stocks could soon follow.  Currently, in the non-tidal Fraser River from Mission to Hope, if a harvestable surplus of Fraser Sockeye is not being detected and if there is concern that First Nation FSC needs or conservation concerns won’t be met there won’t be any recreational Sockeye fishery in that area.  Additionally, if escapement plans in the Integrated Fisheries Management Plan are not being met you and other recreational anglers will likely have your salmon fishing closed altogether.  That’s reality.  It does not matter if there are only 4.5 million people in this province and we have decided as a collective to not export a single wild salmon across our borders and keep them all to ourselves.  Not all 4.5 million people in this province have the same access to wild salmon.  Many people do not like it, but that’s how it is.  

For Fraser River Sockeye, management adjustments can be made inseason which can affect whether stakeholders have access to Sockeye or not.  Inputs such as Fraser River water temperature and water flow (along with biological data) can influence management adjustments.  These adjustments are made to ensure more Fraser Sockeye make it to the spawning grounds.  They account for enroute loss due to unfavourable environmental conditions during upriver migration so it will allow for more Fraser Sockeye to pass by Mission.  Allowing for more escapement means less for all stakeholders.  As was indicated in Cohen’s report and reinforced by Technical Report #9 (Climate Change), the Fraser River has experienced 2 degree Celsius warming in the summer as compared to 60 years ago.  Late Run Sockeye that enter the Fraser early may experience water temperatures 5 degrees Celsius warmer than they normally would.  Temperature and water flow are big factors in the equation and will play a more prominent role in the years ahead.  Female Fraser Sockeye experience increased mortality when compared to males during poor environmental conditions (specifically higher than optimal water temperatures). This will undoubtedly impact First Nations, commercial fisherman and recreational anglers (people like you).

In addition to what I already mentioned in my previous post there are clearly significant challenges ahead (hence the title of Cohen's report).  I don’t think everything is just going to fall apart right away and nobody is going to be able to catch a salmon, but it is not as sustainable as you may think for our own province.  Definitely your access to them is not guaranteed and will likely be impacted greatly in the future.

As for the decline in the lumber industry in BC there is more to it than over-harvesting.  The downturn in the US housing market, the price of lumber, our long dispute with the US over softwood lumber exports and the mountain pine beetle are also factors.  Vancouver Island communities that used to depend on the forest industry are now turning to other industries, like aquaculture, for employment and economic spin-off whether people agree with it.  If an industry has any impact do we just say let someone else should do it because they need it more than us?  If that is the case then there is a long list of industries that fit that bill, not just aquaculture.  Unfortunately, if we used your logic in regards to exporting we would have very little employment here and we would all be poorer for it.  Should we do that for the beef industry or other industries?  How do you think agricultural land is developed and what do think the impacts may be (i.e. water use; trampling of riparian areas; run-off of pesticides and fertilizers; ditching; diking; water channelization)?  If we can farm salmon in a sustainable and environmentally responsible way here in BC I do not see why we need to export those jobs and economic benefits somewhere else.
 

[adriaticum]

thanks shuswapsteve, good information.

[troutbreath]

I think poor logging practices as well as over fishing helped kill off both industries. I know guys who worked on Seine boats that said they could wipe out a whole river system by dropping the nets on the front of the river going into the ocean. They would go back and do it the next year and the year after til it was toast. DFO has done little to stop the overfishing on the east coast due to political pressure. Same thing goes here with the fish farm lobbyists. This isn't rocket science you know. Just follow the money and you get to the root of the problem. Also I really doubt that the west coast is a good habitat for Atlantic salmon as they seem to all die off from disease here historically anyway.

[alwaysfishn]

SS........   I fixed your last statement so it would make more sense......   

 If   Since we cannot farm salmon in a sustainable and environmentally responsible way here in BC, I  do not see why we need to export those jobs and economic benefits somewhere else.
 

[EZ_Rolling]

Hatcheries used to play a much larger role in producing commercially available fish but today they produce a fraction of what they used to the Govenment has shifted those those fish and jobs to the aquaculture industry.

And yes the hatchery model was not perfect either but we did not have the issues we face today with wildly fluctuating returns and disease.

Hatcheries today only provide limited fishing opportunities for sportsmen.

[shuswapsteve]

SS........   I fixed your last statement so it would make more sense......   

 If   Since we cannot farm salmon in a sustainable and environmentally responsible way here in BC, I  do not see why we need to export those jobs and economic benefits somewhere else.
 

I didn't expect anything less from you, AF.  Thanks.

[shuswapsteve]

Hatcheries used to play a much larger role in producing commercially available fish but today they produce a fraction of what they used to the Govenment has shifted those those fish and jobs to the aquaculture industry.

And yes the hatchery model was not perfect either but we did not have the issues we face today with wildly fluctuating returns and disease.

Hatcheries today only provide limited fishing opportunities for sportsmen.

Hatcheries play more than an enhancement role for sportsmen.  Coded wire tags are applied to hatchery fish which help determine survival and explotation rates.  Important if you are managing an indicator stock.  It is often difficult to get enough wild juveniles to apply CWTs.  Nibbles can add much more.

In regards to salmon ranching in Alaska, it's contribution is almost half of the commercial catch there.

[dnibbles]

Hatcheries used to play a much larger role in producing commercially available fish but today they produce a fraction of what they used to the Govenment has shifted those those fish and jobs to the aquaculture industry.

And yes the hatchery model was not perfect either but we did not have the issues we face today with wildly fluctuating returns and disease.

Hatcheries today only provide limited fishing opportunities for sportsmen.

Huh? The skeena sockeye fishery, the WCVI Chinook fishery, much of the Johnstone Strait chum fishery, and many many terminal fisheries. Limited opportunities?

[dnibbles]

SS........   I fixed your last statement so it would make more sense......   

 If   Since we cannot farm salmon in a sustainable and environmentally responsible way here in BC, I  do not see why we need to export those jobs and economic benefits somewhere else.
 

Go have a read of your buddy troutbreath's latest post.

[chris gadsden]

At CC's office last week.
http://youtu.be/ANo3yML3Ouc

[brownmancheng]

If we can farm salmon in a sustainable and environmentally responsible way here in BC I do not see why we need to export those jobs and economic benefits somewhere else.
 

We can't do it in an evironmentally responsible way.. That is the whole point being made.

The argument from the feedlots is that land based farms while environmentally responsible are not economically profitable.
We care more about our resources and heritage than multinationals making a dollar, this is the point you just don't get.

And as for saying look at other industries footprints (Ie. agriculture, cattle industry as Ss pointed out) did your mommy ever teach you two wrongs don't make a right?!!!!

[alwaysfishn]

..............   did your mommy ever teach you two wrongs don't make a right?!!!!

    

[shuswapsteve]

We can't do it in an evironmentally responsible way.. That is the whole point being made.

The argument from the feedlots is that land based farms while environmentally responsible are not economically profitable.
We care more about our resources and heritage than multinationals making a dollar, this is the point you just don't get.

And as for saying look at other industries footprints (Ie. agriculture, cattle industry as Ss pointed out) did your mommy ever teach you two wrongs don't make a right?!!!!

We can’t do it in an environmentally responsible way?  That wasn’t the conclusion or the impression I got from reading Cohen’s Final Report.  If it was I am sure that Cohen would have recommended that the industry cease all open-net pen aquaculture in BC immediately.  Again, Cohen didn’t say that fish farming in BC was bad and must be removed immediately; however, by looking at the testimony objectively (and considering documents like the Wild Salmon Policy and his interpretation of the precautionary principle) he felt that more work was required to satisfy concerns – particularly with the impact of diseases on the survival of wild salmon (including monitoring).  What he recommends in regards to aquaculture in BC are reasonable.  They also serve a larger role by expanding our knowledge of fish diseases in wild populations.  Personally, I do not disagree with any of Cohen’s recommendations as they pertain to aquaculture and you will also find that the BC fish farm industry does not disagree either.  Many of the governmental and non-governmental scientists that provided testimony actually agree on some of the things that need to be done.  On the other hand, it seems as though fish farm critics have marginalized themselves once again by busily misinterpreting the report’s findings and recommendations to make it sound like a condemnation of fish farming in BC (I noticed Ray Grigg could not resist either).  They are also using the same old rhetoric which is specifically addressed in the report by Cohen, such as evidence that diseases on fish farms are out of control or unusually high, ISA (and ISAV) and marine anaemia.  From my observations, many fish farm critics have no idea about fish pathogens like IHNV or ISAV, but start making these grand conclusions about them and their impacts.

The insinuation that BC fish farmers care more for the almighty dollar than wild salmon is getting really old and silly.  They already utilize close-containment for the early stages of rearing so they are probably more familiar with the pros and cons of the technology than most fish farm critics.  It is good that people care about their resource, but they should also care about getting the right information in order to make informed decisions.  Cohen’s recommendations help to address that.  We should all try to support the implementation of these recommendations (not just the ones that pertain to aquaculture) and encourage those responsible to work quickly to address them instead of fighting old battles where what is myth and what is not as well as what needs to be done has been addressed in Cohen’s Final Report.