Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: bentrod on October 25, 2005, 07:21:04 PM
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I have read that Chinook are not native to the Vedder. Just for discussion purposes, say that a mating pair of springs accidentally make it up the Vedder at some point back and successfully spawned. 4-7 years later, enough of their offspring make it back and start their population increases. I assume that this has happened to a large number of rivers over time and we call many of these stocks native. Assuming that the increase in the vedder spring population has occured without being planted (by man), at what point do we call the Vedder springs native?
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I guess what I'm getting at is that some are advocating for reducing their numbers dramatically to help the coho population. What justifies getting rid of one native species and keeping another? Before you reply to this post, make sure you read the 1st post to see my definition of a native species.
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You know what bentrod, it is a well know fact that the springs in the vedder are not native to the vedder. It to me does not matter how you word a repute!!! They are not native. To me, the Springs are an annoyance! Maybe if you had to work to get one and not hook forty a day, they would be more fun to go after. But as I have read lately, now that coho season is here, a lot of the fishermen out on the river would rather have a coho than a spring on the end of there line. I don't know if getting rid of a lot of the springs is the way to go, but I would much rather see more coho then spring. The last two years on the vedder have been nothing but a big springfest! Which has brought out a lot of very unethical meat fishermen as well. So, to me a big thinning of the springs would be a good start. It might help get some of these "fishermen" of the river as well!! ;)
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Would we even be having this conversation if these were red springs... ::)
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I enjoy springs but yes, I would rather have a coho than a spring. I do not believe in killing the run off is a good solution to the problem
I was definately not implying that a run of fish should be killed off for another run of fish. I would rather see the hatchery cut back on the number of springs that it rears. In doing so, that would free up some resources to increase the number of coho that could be produced. I think that some would be surprised about these numbers and how much the coho numbers have been cut back, where the springs numbers have not be affected so much. Also to chum numbers could probably be reduced as well, as these fish seem to be doing very good on there own as well. If someone could help with putting these stats up in the thread that would be very helpfull. That is just my opinion, not saying that it is the right one. It is just a thought!!!!
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I agree, I hate fishing next to people that have no right calling themselves fishermen. Many of these people are out to catch whatever they can, however they can. They end up harming the fish, trashing the river and ruining the experience for people who truly are fisherpeople.
Forgive my ignorance, but have coho always been in the Vedder, or were their numbers perpetuated by the hatchery?
Assuming the hatchery is sufficient to produce a sufficient amount of returning coho, then the springs competing for spawning beds should not be an issue. I don't advocate eliminating something that occured naturally. Plus, I like to catch the odd spring for smokers. Could a solution be that we just raise the limit to 2 springs/day with a season limit of 15-20?
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I agree, I hate fishing next to people that have no right calling themselves fishermen. Many of these people are out to catch whatever they can, however they can. They end up harming the fish, trashing the river and ruining the experience for people who truly are fisherpeople.
Forgive my ignorance, but have coho always been in the Vedder, or were their numbers perpetuated by the hatchery?
Assuming the hatchery is sufficient to produce a sufficient amount of returning coho, then the springs competing for spawning beds should not be an issue. I don't advocate eliminating something that occured naturally. Plus, I like to catch the odd spring for smokers. Could a solution be that we just raise the limit to 2 springs/day with a season limit of 15-20?
I think that you have a good Idea there!!! But I would still like to see the hatchery cut down on the amount of springs and chums that they produce.
As for the Coho, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but yes the coho are the native salmon to the river. The hatchery program was started when the wild coho numbers dropped to a level of concern. The keeping of wild coho was then banned, and the hatchery program was started so that the wild coho run could rebuild it self naturally. This seems to be doing well judging by the number of wild coho that are being seen in recent years.
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I have read that Chinook are not native to the Vedder.
From what I understand there are some native red chinooks in the vedder but their numbers are very low. I would like to see some effort to increase their numbers. The whites were transplanted from the harrison
Could a solution be that we just raise the limit to 2 springs/day with a season limit of 15-20?
If dfo upped the limit to 2 springs a day on the vedder it would put more pressure on the small population of wild reds and if the yearly limit was bumped up it would put more pressure on other spring stocks. besides who needs more than 10 springs a year anyways!
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Don't forget that there are other reasons other than fishing for having the large number of white springs in the river. The dead carcasses of springs provide food for all the living creatures in the river. The chum and the pink also.
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hey alot of ppl love catching springs and chums by the thousands other ppl can catch coho alrite so maybe u should stop whinning about a good thing
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Instead of decreasing this and that. How about increase nutrient and food source in Vedder?
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So more of everything can show up. :D
Right now in the hatchery for every 44 returned coho there's only 1 white spring (2003).
More white spring cought maybe they are just more aggresive?
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Big Steel
Hatchery production for Coho, Springs and Chum have all been cut over the last few years. Coho production has been reduce from 1.8 - 2.0 million down to 1.2 million. Likewise chinook have been reduce from a high of about 2.2 million down to 1.2 - 1.3 million. Chum have been reduced from 5 million fed fry down to 1.2 million unfed.
Hatchery returns to date have been great for chinook but very low for coho. Production from in river spawning chinook is about 5% with the bulk of adults 95% being produced by the hatchery. This years return is still coming off of a fairly large release but you should start to see a reduction of #'s over the next few year.
Wild coho production has been stable over the last number of years and should remain so with all of the enhanced channels in the upper water shed.
Hatchery production has been scaled back to protect wild stocks from those nasty hatchery fish who may or may not spawn with their long lost brothers.
Someone mentioned about red Chinooks in the Vedder and if they could be enhanced. There is still a small number of indigenous chinook in the Vedder but the numbers are below 50 fish. We have been trying to capture some of these fish for brood stock but it is very difficult due to the areas they spawn in and the distance they are spread over. There's a lot of wet suit work and monitoring of their locations prior to trying to capture them.This year we observed 20 fish for 3 weeks and the day after we started to try and capture these fish the river blew out . ( Game over ) The first day we managed to capture 2 females and 3 males. One female was spawned out and the other was taken for brood stock. The biggest surprise to those involved was that three of the five fish captured were hatchery fish from a release of 6200 fish three years previous. Next year there should be 4 year olds from this group.
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Buck, I understand scaling back on hatchery coho to try to prevent cross breeding with natives; but with the bulk of adult chinook, 95% being produced by the hatchery, why scale back on chinook production? Are the 5% competing for spawning beds of native coho?
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Bentrod
The springs do not compete for spawning space in the Vedder/Chilliwack as they are mainly mainstem spawners. Most of the coho spawn in the small tributaries. Cut backs in production are a cost saving measure as hatchery budgets have been reduced. Even with the reduction in chinook numbers we should still have a substantial return from 1.2 million juveniles released.
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I'm glad some effort is being made to 'enhance' the run of reds. When using a salmon for broodstock how far into it's spawning phase does the fish need to be and does it need to come from a live fish? The reason why I ask is maybe anglers could assist the hatchery in capturing some reds for broodstock. The hatchery could put up signs requesting anglers to call them up if they catch a red. With only 50 reds returning to spawn the introduction of the whites doesn't seem to be helping the wild run. I thought that was the main purpose of a hatchery. ::) Hey buck do you know what the hatchery's purpose is for producing the whites? Does anyone know if or when the vedder had a healthy population of reds?
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Hatcheries have never helped wild runs. They do the exact opposite by displacing wild salmon with hatchery clones. The reason they're in place is to augment depleted/non existent runs so that us anglers can take something home.
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i still dont get it what "differennce " is there between a wild and hatchery eaither way its a fish coming back to spawn
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i thought the vedder chinook reds were taken from fraser river brood stock. with the poularity of the vedder at this time, the white springs take quite a burden off the the coho i think as they increasingly become harder to track down. i don't know why the hatchery has to raise chum. it would be more beneficial to have an every year pink run instead in the vedder. Chum are excellent fighters(when hooked in the mouth!) but their flesh and apperance just don't do it for me. and then its their teeth you have to deal with when trying to unhook them.