Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Spawn Sack on April 04, 2016, 05:57:38 PM
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Soon, hopefully this year, we will be looking to buy a kicker for our 16 foot Harbercraft Falcon. Currently it is just set up for the river. In addition to the kicker we plan to outfit it with downriggers so we can lake troll when the river scene is not so happening.
We do have a short shaft 5hp 4stroke. It's a great motor but I've decided I do not want to affix a tilt up/down bracket to my transom, nor do I wish to have a custom fixed bracket welded to my transom. So we will be going with a kicker that can go right on the transom and be sufficiently long to sit the right depth in the water.
I forget what my transom measurements are, but I've been told that I could "make it work" with a long shaft. More specifically, a long shaft should be fine in forward, but it would have limited abilities in reverse. I was also told that going by the measurements an extra long shaft would be the correct/proper length. So, I figure if the theme here is "do it right" I would like to buy a XL shaft. I don't have a problem buying a new one although it would be nice to score a nice, newer, used one. Checking out Craig's list and Kijiji recently I have found very few XL shafts. Seems most are short or regular, with the occasional L shaft.
Anyway, can anyone recommend the "best" kicker for my boat? Some of my thoughts are:
1- Definitely 4 stroke. I want to run the kicker off my main fuel line, not have an auxiliary tank sitting on my floor. Plus I don't want the noise and stink for the kicker. My main is a 2 stroke jet and I love it, but for trolling I want the set up to be as quiet and stink free as possible.
2- If I'm just doing a short trip on the river, I'd likely take the kicker off. So it can't be a super heavy pig that I can't comfortably lift on/off.
3- I've heard the Yamaha high thrust kickers are arguably the best out there. Although looking on Yamaha's website it looks like the smallest HT is a 9.9 which IMO is too big/heavy for our boat and for me to lift on/off repeatedly.
http://yamahaoutboards.com/outboards/High-Thrust/overview
4- I'm thinking for out boat possibly a 6hp? Curious what others think. I see Yamaha makes an "F" series, which I am assuming are a suitable trolling motor for a boat like ours?
http://yamahaoutboards.com/outboards/Portable/overview
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I'm confused, you say you want four stroke so you can run off your main fuel line, then you say your main jet is a 2 banger?
Am I missing something?
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most likely oil injected.
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You can check out Maple Marine. They have Tohatsu's. Including long shaft and 'sail' versions although I would think a standard long shaft will work for your boat.
If you plan on being in the chuck a lot, I would go for a 8 or 9.9hp that can push your boat in current and as an emergency back up. If it is mostly for near shore and lake trolling, a 6hp long shaft would be in the $1500 range and it has an internal tank. I would go new. No better piece of mind, especially as the kicker/emergency motor to know you have 100% reliability on hand for not a lot of cash.
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/bod/5480826089.html
http://www.onlineoutboards.ca/mfs6cdl.html
Given how much kickers hold their value, you can go new and recoup 80% of the value in 4-5 years, if needed. All the while you get to enjoy a new motor. If you go used, you never really know what you're getting...my .02$.
One other option, if you are using it only for lake trolling is go electric. I love my 24V 72lb thrust Minn Kota. You can spend $1500 and get the model that links up with Hummingbird to maintain GPS controlled speed and depths, awesome for trolling along drop offs etc. In addition to a handheld remote. If you want quiet and awesome trolling capabilities, that's the way to go.
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Newer 6 hp 1 cylinders are said to shake a lot so 2 cylinders are recommended if your boat is large enough. Yammy 8hp or merc 9.9 4 strokes are fairy popular but not too sure though if you're planning to run off a 2 stroke main. Running an independent fuel line to a portable tank could work or finding an older 2 stoke with with 2 cylinders. Good luck with your search.
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Yes, 1 cylinders will vibrate more than 2 cylinders, but it wont be taxed given his boat is only a 16'.
An 8hp Yammy or 9.9 Merc will cost double what a Tohatsu (which makes all of Merc and Nissan small outboards) 6hp will cost. And the 6hp will weigh ~30lbs less, which may make a difference on a boat this small.
He is running a 2 stroke main with oil injection, so he can run both motors off one tank. Or use the internal tank on the Tohatsu and have a small jerry can handy to refill it.
There is no way that a 2 cylinder 2 stroke will be quieter or produce less shake than a 1 cyl 6hp 4 stroke. Let alone the smoke/fumes of trolling with an oil burner all day.
The 6hp Tohatsus can be had with a charging system, that could also be a factor.
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My bad, didn't thoroughly read the OP and was a but confused. For some reason I thought Spawn had a larger boat and also hadn't known about oil injection.
Looks like merc/tohatsu 4 stroke 5 hp sail drive would fit the bill, but not familiar with yamaha.
As for the ex long shaft, maybe you could just swap out the leg on your short shaft. Might help in the search for a newly used motor to know that sail boaters often use the exL shaft for their aux motor.
Yes, 1 cylinders will vibrate more than 2 cylinders, but it wont be taxed given his boat is only a 16'.
An 8hp Yammy or 9.9 Merc will cost double what a Tohatsu (which makes all of Merc and Nissan small outboards) 6hp will cost. And the 6hp will weigh ~30lbs less, which may make a difference on a boat this small.
He is running a 2 stroke main with oil injection, so he can run both motors off one tank. Or use the internal tank on the Tohatsu and have a small jerry can handy to refill it.
There is no way that a 2 cylinder 2 stroke will be quieter or produce less shake than a 1 cyl 6hp 4 stroke. Let alone the smoke/fumes of trolling with an oil burner all day.
The 6hp Tohatsus can be had with a charging system, that could also be a factor.
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Have you measured how thick your transom is? You main OB is through bolted to the transom which is rated for 90hp. Small OB motors are not really designed to fit anything thicker than 1.5". My preference would be to have a kicker bracket installed for a few reasons. The main one is that a short shaft motor will work just fine and they are cheaper than a long shaft or extra long shaft. Most kicker brackets are spring or gas assist for raising and lowering too.
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I'm confused, you say you want four stroke so you can run off your main fuel line, then you say your main jet is a 2 banger?
Am I missing something?
It's oil injected.
You can check out Maple Marine. They have Tohatsu's. Including long shaft and 'sail' versions although I would think a standard long shaft will work for your boat.
If you plan on being in the chuck a lot, I would go for a 8 or 9.9hp that can push your boat in current and as an emergency back up. If it is mostly for near shore and lake trolling, a 6hp long shaft would be in the $1500 range and it has an internal tank. I would go new. No better piece of mind, especially as the kicker/emergency motor to know you have 100% reliability on hand for not a lot of cash.
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/bod/5480826089.html
http://www.onlineoutboards.ca/mfs6cdl.html
Given how much kickers hold their value, you can go new and recoup 80% of the value in 4-5 years, if needed. All the while you get to enjoy a new motor. If you go used, you never really know what you're getting...my .02$.
One other option, if you are using it only for lake trolling is go electric. I love my 24V 72lb thrust Minn Kota. You can spend $1500 and get the model that links up with Hummingbird to maintain GPS controlled speed and depths, awesome for trolling along drop offs etc. In addition to a handheld remote. If you want quiet and awesome trolling capabilities, that's the way to go.
Thanks Damien. I will check out the Tohatsu's for sure! Yeah and I think I would go new here.My bad, didn't thoroughly read the OP and was a but confused. For some reason I thought Spawn had a larger boat and also hadn't known about oil injection.
Looks like merc/tohatsu 4 stroke 5 hp sail drive would fit the bill, but not familiar with yamaha.
As for the ex long shaft, maybe you could just swap out the leg on your short shaft. Might help in the search for a newly used motor to know that sail boaters often use the exL shaft for their aux motor.
I looked on the website for my 5hp shaft shaft and it does also come in L shaft. I emailed the company and asked if they sell just the leg for the L shaft and if yes how much $ is it?
Is it that difficult to swap out the leg and go from S to L shaft? If it is a big pain in the arse I would just say bugger it and get another motor as we used the short shaft a fair bit on our 12 foot boat on remote lakes, so the conversion back and forth would have to be somewhat fast/easy.
Have you measured how thick your transom is? You main OB is through bolted to the transom which is rated for 90hp. Small OB motors are not really designed to fit anything thicker than 1.5". My preference would be to have a kicker bracket installed for a few reasons. The main one is that a short shaft motor will work just fine and they are cheaper than a long shaft or extra long shaft. Most kicker brackets are spring or gas assist for raising and lowering too.
No I have not, but I did try my 5hp motor on the big boat and it does fit. Although it is a lot thicker than the transom on my 12 foot boat. I would say the transom is about 2.5 to 2.75 inches thick.
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To the best of my knowledge, only some motors have legs that can be swapped in a cost effective manner.
Go new, go four stroke...or electric.
Regarding your transom, its probably similar to my 17.5ft G3. My kicker and transom mount minnkota both slide on and screw onto it no problem. But not a lot of room to spare in terms of threads left to cinch it. You should be fine,
for that.
Do check with the manufacturer for the weight limitations of your transom. Since you are running a 2 stroke main, you should be fine though.
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Thanks for the replies guys. I have not had a chance to go into outboard stores yet but I am going to try to make it a priority sooner than later.
I was contacted by a gentleman on this site who has more or less the same boat as me, and he runs a 6hp Yamaha 4stroke on his boat and loves it. No complaints about single cylinder vibration. I am leaning more towards a 6 instead of an 8 or 9.9. Reasons are less weight for me to lift on/off the boat, and less weight on the stern. I park the boat in my driveway and I think even with a theft deterrent lock on the outboard some s**t rat will find a way to haul it away :o I would prefer to take it off and keep in the garage. An extra 30lbs or so would like get old quickly. As far as transom weight goes I just want to keep it as light as possible. The boat only puts out 65hp at the pump. This is adequate power with the wife and I who are the only occupants of the boat 90% of the time. Add a 3rd adult and the boat struggles a bit in the Fraser but it's doable. Add a 4th adult and it's a bit of a dog :o
I would equate the kicker to be a very light 3rd passenger, but the weight is on the stern and it's only a 16foot boat. So I'm thinking keep it as light as possible while staying 4 stroke and still having sufficient power to troll and put-put the boat along in the event the main motor fails.
I still need to talk to the pros who sell these motors.
In the mean time any thoughts on buying a smaller motor like a 6hp and swapping the prop out to something with a bit more pushing power...like a 4 blade? Kind of talking out my a** here, I have just heard of guys swapping out their props to make them more trolling purposed instead of top end speed purposed.
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I've got a 6hp with the mouse ear prop they use on the Sail power type engines, still only 3 blade but less pitch and more surface area. Seems to work well for trolling, there is vibration at low speed but not willing to add the extra weight.
Tohatsu makes a 6hp sail Ultra Long shaft or a long shaft with charge system
http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/6_4st.html
Mercury has a 5 hp sail with the long shaft 20" transom
https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/nl/engines/outboard/fourstroke/4-6-hp/
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I have a 6 hp Suzuki, and had to use it upstream in the Fraser to get back to Ladner. I have a 15' fiberglass type boat. It worked pretty hard going upstream.
If I wanted an auxiliary motor for use on the upper Fraser I would opt for either an 8 hp or 9.9. Yes I know weight is a consideration.
If you can, try a 6 hp before you commit to purchasing a kicker.
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I think you need at least the 9.9 to troll in any sort of cross wind on a 16' - otherwise you just get pushed around sideways. I realize someone is going to say just give it more gas but that still doesn't do it. Need a bigger prop. I experienced this having tried a 5hp on a 16' at Kawkawa - it was crap. Put on a 9.9 for the next day any pretty much the same wind conditions but the 9.9 fought the wind well enough to enjoy the troll.
Plus if you ever need the kicker to let back to the launch, you'll be thankful you have the 9.9 over a 5.
Falcon is a heavy boat with a windshield that will act like a sail. Seriously consider the 9.9
That's my 5 cents worth.
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Well, I've been checking out different manufacturer's website and have found out a few interesting things.
Yamaha: 6hp and 8hp on available in 15" and 20" shaft. If you want an XL shaft you need to go 9.9hp or higher. The 1cycl 6hp is pretty light at 62lbs, the 2cycl 8 and 9.9 are 90ish lbs each depending on shaft length. The "high thrust" models start at 9.9hp and are 102-114lbs depending on the model.
Merc: 5hp available in 15" or 25" (no typo) shaft. 57lbs. 6hp available in 15" or 20" shaft (not XL shaft...kinda odd). 57 lbs. 5hp "sailpro" has 4amp alternator, 59lbs, but only available in 20" shaft.
Tohatsu: 5hp (55lbs) available in 15" or 20" shaft. 6hp is available in 25" shaft ("sailpro").
I'll have to talk with some of the staff at the outboards stores before I make my decision. Since I'll want to take the outboard off when the boat is parked in my driveway, I'm leaning away from 8hp and bigger. The other deciding factor will be if I can "get away" with an L shaft or if I need to go XL.
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Tohatsu and mercury in those sizes are the same engine, also the difference between 4hp 5hp and 6hp is carb. size. And price that's it.
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Quick question for anyone who might know about this...
So generally when buying the correct shaft length you go buy the height of the transom. For example a 15" transom = short shaft.
On our boat it's 25ish inches from where the kicker would mount to the lowest point on the hull. However it's 2-3 inches less at the point where the kicker prop would be due to the angle of the hull at the stern.
The other day I measured where the WATER LINE is on the hull with the boat just floating near whore and no one in it. From the waterline to where the kicker would mount is 20 inches.
So, if I were to get a long shaft, the cavitation plate would just sit in the water, but would be 5 inches or so above the lowest point on the hull.
I asked about this at boat store the otherday and the guy gave me a 1/2 confident response, which was basically "should be fine" with a L if the cavitation plate is in the water, however it may cavitate a bit in wavy water.
I'm thinking....okay...if it's getting quite wavy out I'm probably going to call it a day for lake trolling and zoom back on the main motor. So, under conditions where I am likely to fish an L shaft should be fine.
Yes I could just buy an XL shaft and be safe but your options are more limited in the hp range I'm looking at, and I've heard they are tougher to sell if you decide to part ways with it down the road.
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I believe that your cavitation plate should be at least level with the bottom of your hull.
Try a different sales person.
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http://www.leeroysramblings.com/OB_shaft_length.htm (http://www.leeroysramblings.com/OB_shaft_length.htm)
Have a look at this page. General idea should still apply to kickers.
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Well, pretty much decide I'm going to go with the 6hp Tohatsu Sail Pro.
http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/6_4st.html
It's the only 6hp 25 inch shaft out there I believe. In Merc you can get it in a 5hp. Nothing in Yamaha.
If price and weight were not factors I'd probably go with the Yamaha 9.9 HT. I just don't like the extra 40ish lbs right on the transom, and that much more weight for me to lift off/on. Boat sits in our driveway and I'm not going to leave it on with some dinky outboard lock so some crack head can swipe it. Don't want it permanently bolted to the transom as from time to time I'd like to go fishing without the kicker off. For example just fishing the Vedder canal for salmon I'd probably chance it and leave the kicker at home. One less thing in the way on the stern for netting fish. However most of the time I'll probably have it on the boat.
I like that the Sail Pro model has a high thrust prop. I know this will still not likely push my boat against the current in the Fraser, but if my main motor was disabled I'd be mostly concerned with just getting to shore, which I have been told by a few shops the 6hp HT Tohatsu should be able to accomplish.
Ive also decided to go with the 25" shaft. Seems the consensus is the 20" would be fine as just a river back up. However used for trolling the 20"shaft would likely cavitate in waves as the cavitation plate will be sitting right at the water line.
Unfortunately I do not know anyone who can loan me a 6hp motor like this to test out. I'll just have to trust the advice of the guys who sells these motors and if I really am not happy with it sell and and go 8 or 9.9 next time around. From what I have read and been told I feel I will be happy with the 6hp Tohatsu high thrust.
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Think a 6 hp 4 stroke would be a good power range.
Member mentioned to buy new. Good idea.
Also do not be afraid to run a kicker off a small portable tank.
4 stroke of course you do not have to mix any oil into fuel.
It will barely zip fuel. Smallest portables take so little room in a boat.
Our once owned 4 hp Yamaha 4 stroke had a very small portable tank.
We used it a lot & after getting back to the launch when I picked up the tank it was still so heavy!!!
Amazed me every time how little gas it used in a day out on the water.
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this thread has been helpful. just picked up a new to me 2010 custom weld. was in the market for a kicker and ordered a 8 horse tohatsu 20" shaft with electric start and charging from www.onlineoutboards.ca/ . thanks for the info.
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Here an odd one for anyone who would care to comment:
So I go to Holiday Marine in Chilliwack today, they are an authorised Tohatsu dealer. Talking to the owner about the 6hp sailpro. He says he does not have one in, but can get it no problem.
He had a 20" shaft 6hp there and pointed out that the measurement from A to B is actually 23." I didn't believe him so he showed me and sure enough it was 23"
What the heck? Now I'm questioning if I should get a 25" shaft. A 20" would put the cavitation plate right at the waterline which is not quite submerged enough for my liking. But another 3 inches would probably be fine.
Confused... :o
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Forget about waterline! the cavitation plate needs to be at least 1" (2" is best) bellow the bottom of the hull where it mounts. It will help with traction, sucking air will drive you nuts.
Buy the motor that fits your boat, don't try to make somthing work that doesn't fit.
I've got 3 boats and 3 different kickers lol
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Haha alright alright! :o Went into Maple Marine today. Was impressed! Guy took the time to go over the dimensions of my stern with me, ask me what I intend to use the motor for, what I expect out of it, budget, and so on. He concluded that I should get the 6hp Sail Pro (Tohatsu). He said the 25" shaft will be best on my boat as the prop will be clear of the hull and will work as efficiently as possible. He agreed with what others said in that I could "get by" with a 20" shaft especially if the water is calm. But it would suck air and drive me nuts in wavy water.
If I am going to buy a new motor I might as well go 25" shaft. I also like that this motor has the high trust prop 8)
When I have the $ I plan to go back to Maple Marine and buy this motor.