Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: IronNoggin on September 20, 2009, 09:56:32 AM
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A Plea of sorts here Folks:
The Stamp Springs are in SERIOUS trouble! At this point, there are less than 1,500 counted into the system. That number is CRITICALLY low! Scary in fact!
And while we all hope beyond hope there will be some miraculous late surge, all indications suggest that ain't likely to happen.
And yes, The Dino has left retention of the few that remain open for the recreational community in the river, this is being done for purely political reasons! They well understand the dire condition the run is in, and are running as hard as they can to cover their asses in this regard. By leaving the bonking of springs open, they can now point directly at us and state that we were very much part of the problem!
Time for us to wake up and realize we are being played! Time for us to recognize that should we kill any more, we are directly contributing to the problem beyond what we already have. Time for us to Man-Up and say: Just Don't Do It! And time for us to spread the word that even if The Dino cannot admit to his grevious mistake, that we can see the error of this foolish opening, and that we care enough to leave them alone! Time for us to honor the fish that we claim to respect and admire so much, and allow the few that do remain to carry their loads to the spawning gravels as they should!
I've been chatting up a LOT of folks on the flow these days. The vast majority have NO idea of just how bad things are regarding the springs, and I have seen too many large dead spawners lying on the beach as a consequence. Most I have chatted to express regret over killing the ones they have once they do understand. My plea to you all is to Please leave them be, and to help get the word out to others to do the same!
Nog - Very Worried we are witnessing the demise of this once Great Run! :'(
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't DFO had a commercial opening because there was a bumper crop of springs ?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't DFO had a commercial opening because there was a bumper crop of springs ?
DFO's knee-jerk reaction to an early and healthy run up-Island was to first assume the same would hold true for the Stamp, then to unleash the bag fleets (seiners, gillnetters and FN's) to mop up the supposed "bounty". The run never materialized as projected, and the vast majority of those that did show departed in holds and freezers, all for the sake of their roe, and a handful of cans of cat food.
Now it very much appears we are headed towards a near complete year class failure as a consequence. And while it may be convenient for some to point fingers, methinks it is much more time for us to pull up our socks, and ensure we do not contribute any more towards the very real problem!
Cheers,
Nog
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Thanks Matt.
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how many males/females do they need for brood stock? .there was a commercial opening just before the labor day derby. also native openings every week.
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how many males/females do they need for brood stock?
Thirty-Three THOUSAND more at the original run projected size (at which level there were no opportunities for commercial extraction).
.there was a commercial opening just before the labor day derby. also native openings every week.
There were multiple gillnet, seine and FN openings when the fish were backed up in front of the river due to warm and low water conditions. Now looks like the run wasn't destined to be even close to that original forecast, and with DFO's blessing, they scooped them all... :'(
Nog
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Fish is just another limited "public" resource, I mean not private by any means. As with all non-private resources, the first question becomes how much it needs to be regulated or not. It is a question of balance. It is only when the second question comes in (what is the criteria by which it is managed) that the problem becomes interesting. For I think that "sustainability" of this resource is not the main criterion. We live, after all, in a dollar-bound capitalistic economy and society, and cost & benefit analyses are too often used instead of other more meaningful criteria.
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... For I think that "sustainability" of this resource is not the main criterion...
Even though DFO is directly mandated to do so, they have chosen to ignore their own reason for existing.
Regardless, the message here isn't to lay blame at anyone's door. It is instead to suggest to our own that we self-regulate, and leave the decimated run alone! It very much is the right thing to do!
Cheers,
Nog
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I fish in Barkley Sound. They allowed the commercial and tribes come into the inlet. When they didn't get enough fish, they allowed them to come back.
Kildonan Tribes overnetted their sockeye in the last years and DFO awarded them by closing that section of the inlet. I have a home in the inlet so I know these things.
Tribes are overfishing prawns and crab.
Ask Robertson Creek hatchery for their harvest and escapement stats and it shows a change of having 100,000 in the system to 50,000. They used to understand the amount of money from recreation and that tribes and commercial should wait. They had sockeye from June to September and they should have given those excesses to the tribes and commercial and not one chinook. Only a brain dead paid off idiot would destroy something like this. People should be fired and sued. The Port Alberni Derby even had people complain about the commercial fishing in the inlet.
In 2008, they had good inlet fishing and then netters came in and took 11,000 chinook (recorded, how many illegal?) and then the great rec fishing went down the tubes. This is ending up like Washington States bought off politians.
My 2009 fishing was the worst of 20 years. They had 400 less boats in the derby and people may not return.
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Lets make sure we blame the right people. DFO used to have field personnel, scientists and so on. The politicians decimated the organization to give you and I the low taxes we demand. You get what you pay for.
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DFO used to have field personnel, scientists and so on. The politicians decimated the organization to give you and I the low taxes we demand. You get what you pay for.
Well said. The unregulated/unmanaged public resource inevitably leads to its scarcity. After all, the human population is increasing, so more and more are going to claim their share of the same resource. It's simple economics, really, in my opinion.
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Lets make sure we blame the right people. DFO used to have field personnel, scientists and so on. The politicians decimated the organization to give you and I the low taxes we demand. You get what you pay for.
We don't have low taxes.
There is plenty of money in government coffers for cost overruns of various projects, olympics and government salaries.
Environment and lives of general public in rural communities is just not a priority.
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I don't think it's all a lack of government resources that causes this. We could have lots more government officials with the same results. It's governments caving to the pressure that each group brings. The more pressure, the more they get. It's short term economics from a government standpoint. Increase the short term money from the catch and give the interest groups what they want.
Bottom line is we can partially blame the government, but as long as commercial and native groups press hard they will continue to get what they want. That's why I credit the many sports fisherman who give up their time to lobby on our behalf. Hopefully their efforts will continue to result in the continuation of the fisheries we do have left.
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I don't think it's all a lack of government resources that causes this.
And I concur with this assessment. While DFO continuously bemoans their lack of funding, and continues to make serious cuts on all three (yes there are 3) coasts, the Top-Heavy end of the scale actually sees an increase nearly annually. There are currently more "policy biologists" operating out of Kent Street (Ottawa Headquarters) than there are in-field biologists on the coasts combined. There are more senior bureaucrats drawing excessive salaries than the combined costs of Area Offices in BC. There is more equipment (including patrol Hurricanes) residing in Ottawa than any particular region. So, crying funding shortfalls is simply the old shell game. Get RID of the dead weight up top! Lose the Bureaucrats who have run the fishery on both coasts into ruin, they have a proven record of dismal failure. Spread the equipment to the areas it is needed in. Hire more Enforcement. Create a stand-alone science wing that cannot be stifled by politics. Were we to do away with the dead weight up top, there would certainly be enough funding for each Region to operate in a much more realistic, and therefor productive manner. Really.
Bottom line is we can partially blame the government, but as long as commercial and native groups press hard they will continue to get what they want.
You have something here as well. The Dino is scared $hitless of the FN's. There ain't no fixing that without MAJOR change, and that ain't at all likely to happen.
The Jimmy Pattison's of the world enjoy FAR too much clout with The Dino, basically demanding openings at will, which are of course catered to. This perhaps we can tackle in the long run. Efforts are underway, and I'll report on what I can from time to time...
That's why I credit the many sports fisherman who give up their time to lobby on our behalf. Hopefully their efforts will continue to result in the continuation of the fisheries we do have left.
While it is fine to extend credit, much more is required. Many of those you refer to are "un-sung heros" who have chosen to buck the odds and attempt to keep the recreational sector on an even keel amongst a most savage flow. Many have gotten burned out and left, many more are approaching that level. More Troops, Fresh Blood of DEDICATED Individuals are desperately required. BUT, APATHY amongst the recreational sector is the single greatest thing working against us! Most are content to whine while on The Pond, the Flow, the Bar, their Homes, and the Internet. Very VERY few actually ever get directly involved, even when there is an explicit Call To Arms from those that are in the front line trenchs. OF COURSE the DFO and MOE are completely aware of this, and of course they use this to their advantage in nearly all occasions. It therefore becomes up to US to step up to the plate, bite the bullet and GET DIRECTLY INVOLVED! And while I hold hope for that to happen, personal experience over a great many years suggest this is a near-impossible development. I do hope that assessment can be proven wrong...
Cheers,
Nog
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A Plea of sorts here Folks:
The Stamp Springs are in SERIOUS trouble! At this point, there are less than 1,500 counted into the system. That number is CRITICALLY low! Scary in fact!
And while we all hope beyond hope there will be some miraculous late surge, all indications suggest that ain't likely to happen.
And yes, The Dino has left retention of the few that remain open for the recreational community in the river, this is being done for purely political reasons! They well understand the dire condition the run is in, and are running as hard as they can to cover their asses in this regard. By leaving the bonking of springs open, they can now point directly at us and state that we were very much part of the problem!
Time for us to wake up and realize we are being played! Time for us to recognize that should we kill any more, we are directly contributing to the problem beyond what we already have. Time for us to Man-Up and say: Just Don't Do It! And time for us to spread the word that even if The Dino cannot admit to his grevious mistake, that we can see the error of this foolish opening, and that we care enough to leave them alone! Time for us to honor the fish that we claim to respect and admire so much, and allow the few that do remain to carry their loads to the spawning gravels as they should!
I've been chatting up a LOT of folks on the flow these days. The vast majority have NO idea of just how bad things are regarding the springs, and I have seen too many large dead spawners lying on the beach as a consequence. Most I have chatted to express regret over killing the ones they have once they do understand. My plea to you all is to Please leave them be, and to help get the word out to others to do the same!
Nog - Very Worried we are witnessing the demise of this once Great Run! :'(
IN--Jeffrey Till who's the DFO Co-ordinator of the Stamp/Somass Indicator program has different numbers showing surplus fish in the system ---How do you explain that ? Check out his web site @ jeffrey.till@dfo-mpo.gc.ca---for counts as of Sep 20/2009---- Cheers ???
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IN--Jeffrey Till who's the DFO Co-ordinator of the Stamp/Somass Indicator program has different numbers showing surplus fish in the system ---How do you explain that ? Check out his web site @ jeffrey.till@dfo-mpo.gc.ca---for counts as of Sep 20/2009---- Cheers ???
The link you posted is an Email to Jeff, not a site?
The lastest DFO release suggests NOTHING in the way of "surplus". If you have anything beyond the latest listing (below) I would be MORE than interested...
1,836 SPRINGS and Counting
Latest data from Somass River Escapement Bulletin
Observations to Sept 20, 2009
OBSERVATIONS:
Stamp falls counting facility has been operational since Sept 3. During the past 5 days chinook adult numbers have ranged from 65 to 176. Coho adults have ranged from 1471 to 2071 and Sockeye adults
have ranged from 723 to 1571.
Total escapement to Sept 20 is ~~~1,836 Chinook~~~~, 22,374 Coho and 184,139 Sockeye. Sockeye escapement to Sproat Lake is estimated at 144,742 adults up to Sept 8. No additional data is available at present.
Stamp Falls counting operation has been closed for short periods during equipment repairs but otherwise has been fully operational.
River flows are relatively low for this time of year. River temperature is still 16-17C.
The escapement goal is 33,000.
We AIN"T gonna see anywhere near that! ::)
Good numbers of coho thus far. Springs... DISMAL!!
For the sake of Their future, ENJOY the coho, but PLEASE release the springs!
Wondering...
Nog
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Reprinted from another Forum (with permission of course):
Summer Steel's response to the query: Maybe someone can explain how they got an increase indicator for 57000 Chinooks from 47000 and how we only have less than 2000 now?
Easy, it's called PFS, political fish science. At 47,000, there is simply no commercial TAC under this years plan to place more naturally spawning fish on the grounds. Since DFO can't go against their own numbers, they need to find a way to increase the run size, at least on paper, to justify an opening. This is done by taking scale samples from the commercial openings in Nootka Sound. Amazingly, they find that there are significantly more Conuma chinook than first thought, ergo there MUST be more Somass chinook as well. Plus the scale samples from DEAD Somass fish they have just harvested MUST mean the run is bigger than they first said it was. Sounds like solid science to up the return by 10,000 ::) , coincidentely, just enough to allow a 7000 piece commercial harvest. This, together with the FN "food" & economic opportunity fisheries taking at least another 7000 fish, ( most likely more due to some slick counting methods at the processors ), leads to the early part of the return being devastated. Why try so hard to justify a commercial opening?? Follow the money. The fishing industry is comprised of three components, harvest, process, & sale. Any person involved in just one of these components can no longer make a living doing it. Ask IronNoggin how much any of the area G trollers made this year, how many of them need a second job just to make ends meet nowadays. Talk to a seasonal fish plant worker & see how their retirement package is shaping up, or go see a part time grocery clerk & ask them if they worked more than 20 hours this week. Now, find the guy who has his fingers in all three pies. He is getting a cut from every part of the business, so life is good for him.The only thing he needs is for there to be enough fish to justify the openings. Whether those fish exist or not is besides the point, as long as there can be some harvest, there will be money to be made. Now, you can bet your last salmon that these decisions are coming from back east. The lobbyists are in place to remind the Gov. officials of where their campaign funds came from & what is expected in return.Until this entire backroom process is dragged out into the light, perhaps under a Judicial review, nothing is going to change. Lets face it, no reasonable people would make the types of decisions we are seeing now unless there was another agenda in play. Managing a fishery isn't rocket science. You look at the best available science, wait until the fish actually show up, put numbers on the spawning grounds FIRST, & always, always err on the side of the fish. It can't possibly be continuously done so poorly year after year without anyone ever losing their jobs unless there was something else at work.
Now if we do the math, that is roughly 14,000 fish gone, so where are the other 43,000 fish?? ( That is supposing that those 10,000 "extra" fish existed in the first place ) Well, if you listen to our friends at DFO, 31,000 fish have been caught by sport anglers so far this year on the WCVI. While that number may indeed be somewhat accurate, what it fails to mention is, that is the TOTAL chinook catch so far this year, NOT the Somass fish we are talking about here. That number includes ALL the chinook caught from May until present, with most of those being offshore southbound fish ( Thanks Yanks ) The Somass chinook don't start showing up inshore in any numbers in Barclay Sound until August. I highly doubt the sports fishery with its one over one under rule made that much of an impact on these fish. So, that begs the questions: Where are they? Where did they go? Are they still coming? Were they ever there? Only time will give us some of the answers, lets just hope they are the answers we are looking for.
One last note, as others have already expressed here, please try not to harvest any chinooks right now, especially the big ones. I know it is open & it's legal, but please, if you feel you absolutely HAVE to kill one, please consider taking one of the many, many 3-6lb jacks that are everywhere right now. These fish are rather easy to catch with roe & IMHO are much better eating than the big ones anyways.
MOST Excellent synopsis of this year's situation I've seen yet. :)
Cheers,
Nog
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Thanks for the info Nog, very informative post. Is it true that DFO tried to imply that the 31,000 fish caught by sporties on WCVI were stamp fish? If that's the case, then its pretty sick if you ask me. Frankly, I'm not sure what we can do about this. The rec sector is too fragmented to band together for a collective force (unlike the commies where lobbying power is concentrated amongst a few). Its not that we are not willing to participate or work to get this turned around, its just that nobody feels they can get any results and that the feds will do what they want to benefit themselves, hence the apathy.
Through my former job, I had an opportunity to fish with Rick Hansen for Sturgeon on the Fraser a few years ago. He told me his ultimate goal (as a chairman on the Pacific Salmon Endowment Fund Society and Fraser River Sturgeon Society) would be to eliminate all gill netting on the Fraser. I'm not sure how far along he is on this goal but he does have lots of clout to get his voice heard. Maybe this is something we need, someone well known to uncover what's going on.
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Just a bump. Keeping the situation to the front. Please let the springs GO in the Stamp!
Cheers,
Nog
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Finally!
The Stamp River will CLOSE to the retention of springs tomorrow at midnight. There will also be area closures to ensure the few that did make it home are left alone.
Too Little Too Late. But at least they finally woke up! ::)
Nog
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RECREATIONAL - Salmon,
RECREATIONAL - Fin Fish (Other than Salmon)
Fishery Notice - Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Subject: FN0787-RECREATIONAL - Salmon: Somass Chinook Recreational Closure and increase in Coho daily limit[/u]
Chinook escapement to the Somass and Stamp Rivers is substantially below the
2009 goal and management action is required to protect Somass chinook to meet
hatchery brood stock and spawning requirements. In consultation with Area 23
Sport Fishing Advisory Committee advisors and local First Nations, it was
agreed that current fishing pressure on chinook salmon holding in the rivers
should be reduced.
Coho escapement to the Somass River is stronger than pre-season expectations,
providing an opportunity for increased recreational access.
Effective immediately to 23:59 hours October 31, 2009 the following will take
place for chinook salmon:
- Chinook non-retention will be in effect in the non-tidal portion of the
Somass River and in the Stamp River,
- The tidal portion of the Somass River will close to recreational fin fishing
as described below:
That portion of the Somass River from the tidal boundary at Paper Mill Dam
seaward to a line commencing at a boundary sign in upper Alberni Harbour
situated at 49°14.19 north latitude and 124°50.23 west longitude then through
the southern most point of Hoik Island then to the flashing green light at the
mouth of the Somass River then due east to a boundary sign on the opposite
shore.
Effective immediately to 23:59 hours December 31, 2009 the daily limit for coho
salmon in the open areas of the Stamp and Somass Rivers will increase from two
(2) to four (4) per day, either hatchery marked or unmarked.
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8138 and counting
Somass River Escapement Bulletin
Observations to Oct 13, 2009
OBSERVATIONS: During the past 9 days at Stamp Falls Chinook adult numbers have ranged from 154 to 677. Coho adults have ranged from 357 to 2017 and Sockeye adults have ranged from 1 to 27. Total escapement is ~~~8,138 Chinook~~~~, 56,336 Coho and 185,488 Sockeye. Sockeye escapement to Sproat Lake is estimated at 144,742 adults up to Sept 8. Additional data is available but requires some vetting.
Stamp Falls counting operation has been fully operational.
River flows have increased over the past few days and have contributed to the improved chinook migration. River temperature is currently unknown.
And with that, hatchery requirements are close to being met. No wild spawn of course. And rumor has it The Dino is suggesting all is as it should be... ::)
To those MORONS that continue to whack springs in this system, a Warning. We ARE watching, and we won't be calling it in (and You know EXACTLY what I mean!)
>:(
Nog
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Hey Nog, off topic but I was wondering if you recieved an e-mail from me a while ago... my email addy is
ricks_honda@hotmail.com
hoping to get out with you on a charter next year for myself and a couple of buddies, can you send me an e-mail so we can discuss this further
cheers Rick Lewis
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Email incoming TrophyHunter. ;D
Cheers,
Nog