Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tylsie on October 02, 2018, 12:03:00 AM
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I recently learned that the Province is not going to be renewing hatchery cutthroat licenses for next year because they have deemed hatchery fish a threat to wild stocks. This may seem like a small problem that most will not care about because (to the best of my knowledge) it only affects 1 hatchery outside of the FFSBC Abbotsford facility; but I can't help but wonder if it is only the beginning.
I am not trying to start a debate about the ills of hatcheries, or their benefits. I have read the literature and fully accept that hatcheries may have negative affects on some stocks. But I have also read studies these effects can be minimized and show if these fish are allowed to breed naturally the affects are quickly gone. A different approach must be taken! One that focuses on habitat restoration along with stock enhancement. But to simply say no more hatchery fish while not doing anything to increase survival of wild fish is asinine.
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Perhaps a different approach IS being taken.
https://www.gofishbc.com/Blog/Science-and-Research/Native-Trout-Stewardship-Initiative-Call-For-Propo.aspx
I first became aware of this initiative back in June.
Perhaps not so asinine after all.
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Well it's good to hear some positive action to protect cutthroat on the south coast is underway. Thanks for the link Clarki and your always positive contributions to the forum.
I understand Tylsie's concerns. Cutthroat all but vanished from many streams, particularly west of Mission perhaps mostly due to development and overwhelming angling pressure.
If we are adopting a wild trout strategy for cutthroat I hope that here in the Southern mainland it's follows some of the features used elsewhere in the Province and in other jurisdictions, namely appropriate terminal tackle restrictions specifically artificial lures only and seasonal closures.
I also wonder if the anadromous cutthroat enhancement program as it has existed the last 5 years or so is really the best use of our money. While stocking levels are not near what they were 25 to 30 years ago they are still double what they were 10 years ago. But release points have been limited to 4 or 5 sites. In the 80s and early 90s stocking was done at more sites and many more streams. Opportunities were widespread. Despite the increase in stocking, fish numbers for me and others are considerably down. I almost never see a sizable hatchery fish anymore. These fish are usually in poorer condition compared to wild fish. A common complaint among local anglers who chase these fish on the Fraser in winter and early spring the last few years has been 'where are they?" Add to this that coastal cutthroat are reportedly much more expensive to raise in a hatchery environment than various strains of rainbow.
Wild trout strategies can work. A mandatory release requirement for Bull Trout certainly seems to have improved their numbers locally.
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A mandatory release requirement is good idea.
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As it is, all wild trout in streams of Region 1 and 2 have to be released.
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Very interesting article Clarki. I have sent Sue Pollard some questions about this initiative. I sounds promising! But without millions available every year, and proper experts available it is simply icing. However, if this is the initiative that caused the Semiahmoo Fish and Game to lose their Cutthroat license than it is off to a terrible start. I hope someone from the Little Campbell Hatchery steps in because I do not want to over step, but from what I can gather their cutthroat license was just terminated. No offer of help in the restoration of wild stocks or habitat, no assessment or monitoring done by the province or FFSBC. Their license will simply not be renewed.
If they are going to actually restore the habitat, remove the sea dams, conduct proper monitoring and assessment of stocks than the fish, and us, may have a chance. I really hope that is true. I want to fully support the initiative nut only if it receives adequate funding and more public awareness.
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Cutthroat all but vanished from many streams, particularly west of Mission perhaps mostly due to development and overwhelming angling pressure.
Won't we need a hatchery's to seed these small systems?
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The future needs hatchery fish. The banks of the fraser have been swallowed up by development for a long time. The areas were Cutthroat have been feeding and living are being destroyed. Large waves from tug boats, jet boats and declining salmon stocks are also to blame. Blame climate change too why not. I am not a fan of trying to bring back lost habitat. That's a lot of land that will have to reclaimed. Wont happen. The best habitat is west of Surrey. Its lost already. I personally think it's a pipedream. A waste of money. If they really want habitat back for these fish ( and I do too ) then start looking at Richmond, Delta and Surrey. Move all of the industry out. That's the only way this is going to work.
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Most of the Fraser cutthroat are east of Mission and remain in freshwater. They overwinter either in the mainstem or the Harrison. The Pitt River complex also has mostly fish that stay in tat area. Other than that there is maybe one stream that runs into the Fraser below Mission with any sort of a cutthroat population.
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--they don't really want volunteer help...it is too messy and the people that volunteer care too much about the resource and actually ask questions and demand results.
--everything will be studied to death from the office and policy will emerge from behind closed doors and nothing will actually get done.
--oh well, of course, they will have to shut down the recreational fishery...first, we can fight about gear and season restrictions but the end result will not be a rebuild of fish stock it will be a total closure...well except for commercial by-catch that will be within acceptable limits.
--how is it that a commercial open net pen or norther salmon ranching isn't a hazard but a rinky-dink little hatchery to supplement a small recreational fishery is the end of the world as we know it.
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Tylsie, you mentioned that 2 cutthroat programs will be wrapped and that one is the Semiahmoo Hatchery on the Little Cambell. What is the other hatchery?
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I don’t know enough about the impact of hatchery cutthroat on wild stocks to comment on the decision to remove the license for community hatcheries to rear/release ct. But, selfishly, it will have little impact on me...and isn't that what it's all about!
In the past 7 seasons, since 2012, I have only landed 2 hy ct > 30 cm, and I didn’t harvest those two fish. I caught many hy < 30 cm, but many, many more wild fish. I fish in an area where you can reasonably expect hy ct to be present, but they rarely show up in my catch, which admittedly is little bit of a mystery. Closing hy ct programs will have little impact on my overall catch… or my diet.
I wonder if you’ll see a reduction in angler effort when they know they won't catch a harvestable fish. On the other hand, maybe anglers will begin to illegally harvest wilds knowing that hy fish are unavailable.
And, Tylsie, you may be right. After going down this road, perhaps the Province will look at the hatchery steelhead program next.
Ralph, you spoke to the decline in cutthroat numbers. I am definitely seeing that too; my catch has crashed..
For example in 2015 where I had 12 outings and hooked 52 fish and landed 35, to 2018 where, in 9 outings, I hooked 7 and landed 3. My CPUE has definitely been trending downwards the past several years. It’s worrisome, but over the years I have seen the numbers rise and fall. So, maybe it’s cyclical, Or maybe it’s not and this action will help
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I haven't any confirmation that the FV program run by FFSBC where cutties are raised and then released by the Abbotsford hatchery is going to be shut down. Just the program at Semiahmo is being terminated. Termination of specific programs seems to be ending at many community hatcheries. As far as I can find out Allco Hatchery no longer raises and release cutthroat, coho, steelhead or chinook in the Alouette. Much of that work is now being done at Federal and Provincial facilities.
I'd also comment that my experience is that wild cutthroat in some of the Surrey Streams seem to be hanging in there just fine. Week before last I landed my largest in a few years which was 2lbs+. I also hooked a couple of nice fish in the 1lb+ range. These fish do face problems from water quality, degraded habitat, c&r mortality and poaching. I found the head from a fish of 10 or 11 inches one spot I fished. These are wild and there hasn't been any hatchery fish for 25 or 30 years.
There are many small streams in the Valley where access to the Fraser or it's tributaries has been cut or compromised by culverts and so on. I know a few of these streams and they do have respectable populations of resident cutthroat that probably still have sea run genes. This winter while watching some of these fish in Byrne Creek in Burnaby I was astonished when a sizable (16 inches maybe) dark cutthroat dashed from under a log to harass some of those small fish. That has to be a sea run!
With some work there could be more wild cutthroat and some sizable ones as well. In 2013 I caught a 22 inch football shaped fish on the Harrison that must have been 4.5 lbs. Fish of 6 or even 7lbs have been taken there.
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I release chinook smolts on the allouette River ever fathers days. They are Harrison whites from the Chilliwack hatchery.
Most of the small community hatchery now seem to just raise a massive amounts of chum. They seem to take well to the the urban ditches. They only have to feed them for a very short period of time.
Kanka creek they raise chum and coho. A small amount of coho to subliment the straight of Georgia fishery. They raise a lot of chum but they are not raised for the fishery they are raised for wildlife, they are not in condition when they enter the creek. Some I interesting facts about kanka creek they extipulated the pink run in the 1970’s. They started to show up again in the 1990’s again and in 2015 had its biggest return of pinks of over 100.
The langley/surrey hatcheries, I believe raise a strain pudget sound chinook and the little Campbell has a okay run of hatchery coho.
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I've received a copy of the letter that informs the angling community and stakeholders about the changes to not only the anadromous cutthroat trout stocking program on the south coast, but also to two steelhead stocking programs.
I've copied and pasted the introduction below. It's a 6 page letter so I'd recommend not engaging in wholesale speculation until you've had opportunity to review the letter in its entirety.
I'll send the letter to Rod to see if he can post it. In the meantime, if you can't wait to get your hands on it, feel free to PM me and provide your email addy and I'll email it to you.
Cheers
September 5, 2018
INFORMATION NOTICE
Re:
Changes to the South Coast Region’s Hatchery Steelhead and Anadromous Cutthroat Trout Stocking Programs
Introduction
The purpose of this notice is to inform the angling community and other interested parties about changes to the South Coast Region’s hatchery steelhead and anadromous cutthroat trout stocking programs. The changes are based on the outcomes of a 2018 review of all regional programs. The review generally concluded that some of the hatchery operations pose risks to wild trout stocks due to potentially negative ecological and/or genetic interactions between wild and hatchery-raised stocks. Also, for some programs there is a lack of evidence of genuine benefits to local recreational trout fisheries. Due to these concerns, regional biologists have decided to discontinue the following stocking programs as soon as possible:
Chehalis River Summer Steelhead
Chapman Creek Winter Steelhead
Fraser River Anadromous Cutthroat Trout
Little Campbell River Anadromous Cutthroat Trout
Further information regarding the review and outcomes are presented in the next sections.
This change will cease all anadromous cutthroat trout stocking programs in the Region for the foreseeable future. No changes are being considered at this time for remaining regional steelhead stocking programs.
Moving forward, the goal is to refine management objectives for each program and develop and implement monitoring plans to enable effective annual evaluation as directed by the Steelhead Stream Classification Policy and Procedures (Dec 13, 2005).
To provide comments or request further information, please contact Mike Willcox, Fish Biologist, by e-mail at Michael.Willcox@gov.bc.ca.
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if you can't wait to get your hands on it, feel free to PM me and provide your email addy and I'll email it to you.
done
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Do you think they are going to close cutthroat fishing down? or do you think its going to stay open as a non retention fishery?
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the only thing changing is that after this year they will not stock any hatchery fish. They released fish in the Fraser and Harrison this spring which means hatchery fish should be around for a year or 2. After that wild only on a c&r basis. Hopefully there will be a broader application of a wild trout policy when it comes to them plus some attempt to determine stock status.
I am also curious what's happening on the Island vs here. I noticed fish release this year is about 1/3 of what was released the last 2 years.
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Apologies for the delayed response. It appears it has been mentioned, but yes, the only 2 hatcheries currently raising cutthroat in Region 2 are the Little Campbell and the FFSBC hatchery in Abbotsford. Now, truth be told it has been years since I have targeted Cutthroat in either the LC or the Fraser, and in fact the only time I ever keep a Cutthroat is when I take my nephews fishing at some of the local lakes. The loss of the hatchery Cutthroats in rivers has direct no bearing on my fishing at all.
But I do worry. The government has learned that people will not stand for the closing of hatcheries so they have developed tactics to slowly make them irrelevant. If major actions are taken in to help wild stocks recover naturally then I will, begrudgingly, accept the loss of hatchery cutthroat these and other local local rivers. But the fact that Fishing with Rod members have provided much more information than is easily and readily available to the public at large I have my concerns.
*Not directly related to the issue at large it was brought up. All 3 hatcheries South of the Fraser (Nicomekl, Tynehead, and LC) raise and release Chinook and Coho with the the LC raising Cutthroat (For now) and Steelhead and the Nicomekl raising Chum.
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Thanks Tylsie. The letter Clarki obtained provides the rational which mainly the 2 cutthroat programs don't meet the basic minimums the Province has established for enhancing wild stocks; wild stocks numbers are unknown, impacts of using eggs from wild fish are unknown and brood stock cannot exclusively be obtained from wild.
Good to here community hatcheries continue to rear much of their own salmon and steelhead stocks. I kind of feel the community hatchery model is the best model of artificial enhancement.
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Do you think they are going to close cutthroat fishing down? or do you think its going to stay open as a non retention fishery?
I highly doubt it. I fully expect the cutthroat fishery to remain open as is: retention for hy fish (while they last) and non-retention for wild.
Part of the reasoning for closing down the ct stocking program is the size of the wild populations is unknown. One way, and perhaps the most cost effective way, is to collect that data is through angler creel reports.
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Sorry about the delay Clarki, here is the file:
http://fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/files/2018-10-13-region-2-hatchery-cuts.pdf
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So no more hatchery Summers for the Chehalis ? Brutal. I really enjoyed that fishery. My friend and I floated that river a few times each Aug and Sept fishing them. We would float from the Statlu to the campsite and have a 10+ EACH steelhead day. What a shame.
They say the Chehalis hatchery is going to focus more on the winter run. I would be ok with that IF that run gets the place where it used to be or better. From my personal experience the summers run has fished better ever since the river changed and went thru reserve land.
Maybe they could make an agreement with the rez to eliminate the nets blocking the mouth that I personally see EVERY YEAR. Maybe the fishing will get better. It's hard for me to pay every year the money for Salmon and Steelhead endorsements and the opportunities get worse and worse.
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So no more hatchery Summers for the Chehalis ? Brutal. I really enjoyed that fishery. My friend and I floated that river a few times each Aug and Sept fishing them. We would float from the Statlu to the campsite and have a 10+ EACH steelhead day. What a shame.
They say the Chehalis hatchery is going to focus more on the winter run. I would be ok with that IF that run gets the place where it used to be or better. From my personal experience the summers run has fished better ever since the river changed and went thru reserve land.
Maybe they could make an agreement with the rez to eliminate the nets blocking the mouth that I personally see EVERY YEAR. Maybe the fishing will get better. It's hard for me to pay every year the money for Salmon and Steelhead endorsements and the opportunities get worse and worse.
Hike and Fish, there seems to be a lot you are missing on the topic of hatchery steelhead, especially the summer run variety on the Chehalis.
To start off, these fish have not been native to the system (Summer Steelhead). Over the years of this program, there has been a lot of cross breeding by the hatchery between "wild" AND hatchery fish taken for broodstock in the hatchery itself. When undertaking these mixes, you are surely to see some drastic genetic changes to the planted summer fish themselves. Myself and others have come across multiple "hermaphroditic" specimens over the years, which can be likely directed to the inter-breeding of hatchery fish with hatchery fish over and over and over again - this is not normal, and not very good at all with a river that once had a healthy winter population. To make things even worse, WILD summer fish are being taken from a fairly healthy stream to continuously supplement this ridiculous program - not very cool IMO, and this is something that goes unnoticed by most and through everyone's radar.
Now to add onto the topic of summer and winter fish spawning with one another - you are seeing virtually a similar issue on the Stamp/Somass system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the planted summer fish are inter breeding with winter fish. What has happened to the Chehalis winter run? It is virtually non-existent comparative to years past. One would likely start to question the quick change in this and the negative effects a genetically mutated population had on a fairly healthy population. Not too mention, the winter program has failed in years past, but we all know that hatchery steelhead don't ever do much to boost a wild population, other than to simply create a fishery.
I think most should view this removal of the summer hatchery steelhead program as a good thing. It will be interesting to see what happens with the winter fish in the near future.
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Hike and Fish, there seems to be a lot you are missing on the topic of hatchery steelhead, especially the summer run variety on the Chehalis.
To start off, these fish have not been native to the system (Summer Steelhead). Over the years of this program, there has been a lot of cross breeding by the hatchery between "wild" AND hatchery fish taken for broodstock in the hatchery itself. When undertaking these mixes, you are surely to see some drastic genetic changes to the planted summer fish themselves. Myself and others have come across multiple "hermaphroditic" specimens over the years, which can be likely directed to the inter-breeding of hatchery fish with hatchery fish over and over and over again - this is not normal, and not very good at all with a river that once had a healthy winter population. To make things even worse, WILD summer fish are being taken from a fairly healthy stream to continuously supplement this ridiculous program - not very cool IMO, and this is something that goes unnoticed by most and through everyone's radar.
Now to add onto the topic of summer and winter fish spawning with one another - you are seeing virtually a similar issue on the Stamp/Somass system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the planted summer fish are inter breeding with winter fish. What has happened to the Chehalis winter run? It is virtually non-existent comparative to years past. One would likely start to question the quick change in this and the negative effects a genetically mutated population had on a fairly healthy population. Not too mention, the winter program has failed in years past, but we all know that hatchery steelhead don't ever do much to boost a wild population, other than to simply create a fishery.
I think most should view this removal of the summer hatchery steelhead program as a good thing. It will be interesting to see what happens with the winter fish in the near future.
That is interesting thank you. I was simply stating how much itll be missed by myself. There are not many local rivers that summers. It was always a treat.
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Best I know the Chehalis summer run program began in the 80s and brood stock came from the Coquihalla when the returns in that river seemed stable. Brood stock hasn't come from there in some time. I also don't believe any other wild brood has been used to maintain the program. Originally the F&W branch was looking at requests to add summer run stock to the Chilliwack which would have provided a more accessible fishery. However feedback from anglers and angling groups wanted the nature of the Chilliwack winter/spring steelhead maintained and did not favour introduction of others stocks. I guess no one complained about introducing these fish to the Chehalis. This wasn't the only program like this in BC. Tsitika River summer runs were transplanted to the Campbell for years and produced a very popular fishery that was terminated when the Tsitika fish declined in numbers after the watershed was logged. There were supposedly plans to get stock from another source. The Stamp/Ash system certainly has/had it's own native summer runs. These declined and then were enhanced. The fish way at Stamp Falls was once thought to have allowed more access by winter fish into summer run waters and together with enhancement there was a worry the Stamp and Ash summer runs were being genetically diluted.
Washington and Oregon introduced summer runs freely into many rivers that never had them. These were mostly 'Skamania' strain fish - an artificially created breed that was easy to propagate in the hatchery. They have also been introduced into the Great Lakes though I believe the 2 states south of us have moved away to using that particular 'breed'
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Best I know the Chehalis summer run program began in the 80s and brood stock came from the Coquihalla when the returns in that river seemed stable. Brood stock hasn't come from there in some time. I also don't believe any other wild brood has been used to maintain the program.
Coquihalla brood had recently been used to supplement the Chehalis program. In my mind, and like the past Campbell River program, it is a big "no no" when we are trying to maintain healthy populations of wild summer fish as well in in other tributaries.
It is in the best interest of the Chehalis River to have the summer run program removed entirely.
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Very interesting article Clarki. I have sent Sue Pollard some questions about this initiative. I sounds promising! But without millions available every year, and proper experts available it is simply icing. However, if this is the initiative that caused the Semiahmoo Fish and Game to lose their Cutthroat license than it is off to a terrible start. I hope someone from the Little Campbell Hatchery steps in because I do not want to over step, but from what I can gather their cutthroat license was just terminated. No offer of help in the restoration of wild stocks or habitat, no assessment or monitoring done by the province or FFSBC. Their license will simply not be renewed.
If they are going to actually restore the habitat, remove the sea dams, conduct proper monitoring and assessment of stocks than the fish, and us, may have a chance. I really hope that is true. I want to fully support the initiative nut only if it receives adequate funding and more public awareness.
As a volunteer brood stock angler for the Little Campbell Hatchery, I'm very disappointed wth the decision to end the program. It's not so much of the why but of the how they ended it. No consultation, no hard data, no plan of action going forward, just a letter saying it's over. The volunteer staff at the hatchery are beyond upset. Fraser Valley Hatchery rears and hatches the ACT for us and the cost is very little. Our target is 20-25K released each spring.
The program has been very successful up to the last couple years where we had less anglers collecting and what would seem are correlations with an overall decline in returns to the river. This past year we have seen a family of otters regularly running the river which may have had an impact. That one is hard to gauge but one could extrapolate and answer.
If you would like to lend some support to our program drop me a message and I'll add it to our meeting with the Prov Biologist. Thanks