Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: chris gadsden on May 08, 2013, 02:13:37 PM
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Hello
Yesterday, I filed a Notice of Application to take the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Marine Harvest to Federal Court to stop them from putting diseased farm salmon into the Fraser sockeye migration route.
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com
Alexandra Morton
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/111365508874859/permalink/606171302727608/
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She's probably using some of Fisherbobs money to do that.
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She's probably using some of Fisherbobs money to do that.
;D ;D
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/b-c/environmental-group-says-the-transfer-of-farmed-salmon-to-open-pens-illegal-1.173753
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She's probably using some of Fisherbobs money to do that.
You are most likely right TB. Its going to be interesting to see how much this circus act will cost the Canadian tax payer. Once again money that should have gone to salmon enhancement goes into the lawyers pockets.
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I really wonder how much money this American born lady has cost Canadian taxpayers?
And people are still supporting her ... only in Canada could this happen::)
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I really wonder how much money this American born lady has cost Canadian taxpayers?
And people are still supporting her ... only in Canada could this happen::)
The logical thing would be to focus on how many wild salmon she is saving. It doesn't take a scientist or a biologist to figure out if you put a bunch of sick fish in the water they're going to make a bunch of other fish sick. Sometimes you feedlot boys focus too much on the biology thingy you keep referring to and forget about using common sense.
I'd rather see Morton spend taxpayer dollars on stopping the feedlots from putting sick fish in the water than having my taxpayer dollars being payed to the feedlot companies because the sick fish they put in the water died on them....
But then I'm just applying common sense rather than talking about that biology thingy....
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You are most likely right TB. Its going to be interesting to see how much this circus act will cost the Canadian tax payer. Once again money that should have gone to salmon enhancement goes into the lawyers pockets.
And 57 million Federal money could have went to enhancement projects instead of the feedlots. What's your point?
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/infected-fish-at-centre-of-lawsuit-against-ottawa/article11806445/comments/
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http://pacificfreepress.com/opinion/12523-prv-hsmi-and-fish-farms-guarding-bc-s-wild-salmon.html (http://pacificfreepress.com/opinion/12523-prv-hsmi-and-fish-farms-guarding-bc-s-wild-salmon.html)
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http://www.timescolonist.com/news/national/vancouver-island-salmon-farm-accused-of-putting-diseased-fish-in-ocean-pens-1.174114 (http://www.timescolonist.com/news/national/vancouver-island-salmon-farm-accused-of-putting-diseased-fish-in-ocean-pens-1.174114)
"However, Backman (feedlot mouthpiece) said there is no evidence that PRV causes HSMI, adding testing is not carried out on farms, as DFO and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency do not have PRV on their lists of reportable diseases."
That's like looking at a person that is choking and not doing anything about it because a doctor hasn't examined the person and declared they are choking....
Sounds like many of the arguments we're hearing from the feedlot boys.
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I will be following this story with interest. My gut feeling on it, it has always been in the pacific and the prophet of doom and her mouthpieces are going to run with what they don't know. Or this may be the first thing Morton has been right on. :)
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Well your the one who gave her money so she could do this Fisherbob! :o
Now your just giving money to the fish farmers, which should help you feel more glib if Morton is proved wrong. There's always a rainbow to brighten a rainy day.
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So true TB :). Always look at the brighter side of life. Who wrote that song anyway?
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http://thecanadian.org/item/2074-piscine-reovirus-pt1-new-salmon-disease-sweeping-coast-bc-aleaxandra-morton-dfo
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If we want to stop this now, get the feed lots out of the water. Washington, Alaska, Russia, Japan, China. Shut down all salmon hatcheries. Do not eat your wild caught salmon. This dreadfull virus is all over the Pacific in wild fish. Shut every form of fishing down now. :) Wink wink. It would be so nice to see the prophet of doom right for a change, wouldn't it :) If I had a sport fishing trip booked this summer in BC, I would be on the phone to the company and the lodging to see if there would be a refund. Big bucks lost if she is right. Just my two cents.
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If we want to stop this now, get the feed lots out of the water. Washington, Alaska, Russia, Japan, China. Shut down all salmon hatcheries. Do not eat your wild caught salmon. This dreadfull virus is all over the Pacific in wild fish. Shut every form of fishing down now. :) Wink wink. It would be so nice to see the prophet of doom right for a change, wouldn't it :) If I had a sport fishing trip booked this summer in BC, I would be on the phone to the company and the lodging to see if there would be a refund. Big bucks lost if she is right. Just my two cents.
Is it possible for Canadians to influence other governments? Not likely, despite your constant buffoonish replies to the contrary. Let's sweep our own doorstep before commenting on the next door neighbour's.
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Is it possible for Canadians to influence other governments? Not likely, despite your constant buffoonish replies to the contrary. Let's sweep our own doorstep before commenting on the next door neighbour's.
Buffoonish is Canadians being so easily influenced by an American and her US funders.
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fisherbob ur turning into a buffoon ! just sayin
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fisherbob ur turning into a buffoon ! just sayin
No RJS, I was a buffoon donating to Mortons cause. Can any one tell me what she has gotten right? I only know of one thing so far.
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No RJS, I was a buffoon donating to Mortons cause. Can any one tell me what she has gotten right? I only know of one thing so far.
Only one thing that I know so far is that your still a buffoon and a good one at that.... :P
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Buffoonish is Canadians being so easily influenced by an American and her US funders.
No - Buffoonish is Canadian taxpayers subsidizing an off shore corporation to the tune of 57 million dollars so they can take their profits out of the country, while cutting funding to wild salmon enhancement and rule enforcement. How long have you worked for the feedlot industry?
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When are you going to stop presuming and start looking out side the small box NB?
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“that salmon farms along the sockeye migration route have the potential to introduce exotic diseases and to exacerbate endemic diseases...” (Chapter 2, p. 22A). “I therefore conclude,” he writes ,“that the potential harm posed to Fraser River sockeye salmon from salmon farms is serious or irreversible” (Ibid.) — a damning finding considering that, in his terminology, “Fraser River sockeye” usually means “all wild salmon”. - Cohen Commission
Peer reviewed and meticulously translated and not the codswallop you constantly post from feedlot sources. Now what was that about a small box? ;)
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Key word, "potential". Could, perhaps, maybe, might etc. I prefer to let the registered biologists in BC and Canada do the science.
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Why risk our natural resources for a very minor economic contributor that takes the money out of the country? And why subsidize them and cut funding to other areas like enforcement and enhancement?n Didn't Justice Cohen have a wealth of resources and research by biologists to work with?
( I won't have so much time on my hands to debunk after I get that biceps reattached, enjoy it now)
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( I won't have so much time on my hands to debunk after I get that biceps reattached, enjoy it now)
Hope you have a fast recovery but don't worry, you've left nothing to debunk :D
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Hope you have a fast recovery but don't worry, you've left nothing to debunk :D
I'm sure you boys can come up with something for me to throw in the frying pan.
BTW Dave- good stuff you're doing with the steel enumerations. I respect and admire the work you put into that.
Lucked out and did my own surgery doc shopping and got the Canucks wizard. On the bright side (I guess) it happened at work so it's quick and I get a few pennies to pay my expenses with. As an owner, I don't have to carry it on myself, but read above posts about precautionary principles. (or principals?) ;D
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BTW Dave- good stuff you're doing with the steel enumerations. I respect and admire the work you put into that.
Thanks for that Nova, my partners and I appreciate it.
A few thousand posts ago af said something very wise (well, I think it was af ...), to the effect that we main posters on this issue are reading the same book, just on different pages ... basically we all care for this resource and have our opinions on how it can be salvaged/repaired/recovered.
Some day we pro-farmers hope you guys will catch up, lol! ;)
Say hi to the closest busted up Canuck next to you.
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http://martlet.ca/2013/06/morton-versus-the-department-of-fisheries-and-oceans/
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Now, however, Morton is convinced that farmed salmon are spreading harmful diseases to their wild cousins along the coast of B.C. Sufficiently convinced, at least, to take legal action in order to prevent an aquaculture company from putting what she says are lethal-disease-carrying fish into B.C. waters.
Fact: There is a difference between having a virus and having the disease that may be caused by the virus. Just because a fish has a virus does not mean it will develop the disease.
Fact: The presence of PRV does not constitute a diagnosis of HSMI as even fish with PRV do not develop HSMI. The diagnosis of HSMI is based on histological examination of changes in heart and skeletal muscle.
Fact: Ms Morton never did an histological examination of her store purchased, gutted, farmed salmon to check for changes in heart and skeletal muscle. (Well...actually she never answered the question I posed to her on this forum so I presume she didn't think it was necessary to do the examination as recommended in the literature. Neither did, Rick Routledge when he found PRV in Cultus Lake cutthroat trout.)
Fact: PRV seems to be ubiquitous in farmed salmon, but appears to have a high prevalence in wild fish with no clinical signs of HSMI.
Fact: PRV can be present in high concentrations in infected fish without displaying lesions associated with HSMI.
Fact: PRV can be present in healthy, market-sized, farmed salmon purchased in a supermarket (straight from Ms Morton's own work....Thanks Alex!)
Fact: HSMI primarily effects young fish.
Fact: HSMI has never been found in any species of Pacific salmon (Dr. Marty's interview in the Marlett).
Also...just because PRV was first identified in Europe does not mean that PRV originated there - it may have been present in BC salmon all along (from the interview in the Martlet). It has only been recently described (2010).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20634888
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23167652
http://info.ices.dk/products/fiche/Disease/2006/Sheet%20no.%2058.pdf
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v99/n1/p7-12/
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Thanks for all this SS but one always have to remember that science and people as a whole have made so many mistakes in the past and it is because of this the environment is in the mess it is today. History shows that.
We can be so thankful we have people that Alex and others that keep doing the work they do. Simple statements I know but one can not dispute that, well I do not think others can.
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Thanks for all this SS but one always have to remember that science and people as a whole have made so many mistakes in the past and it is because of this the environment is in the mess it is today. History shows that.
We can be so thankful we have people that Alex and others that keep doing the work they do. Simple statements I know but one can not dispute that, well I do not think others can.
So true Chris!
History shows that industry has made many mistakes because they focused on the profits rather than the environment, using science to justify their actions, rather than applying common sense and the precautionary principle. That's exactly whats happening on the west coast with the feedlots.
Stevey and the feedlot boys are focusing on the potential that the feedlot industry has to generate jobs and profits. They are ignoring the fact that wild fish have been decimated in regions like Scotland and Norway as a result of this industry. It's only a matter of time till the same thing happens here either from the current known viruses or some new virus.
When you play with fire you eventually get burned. The current "science" is questionable at best. Believing that "it can't happen here" is just foolish!
I can't believe that anyone could be so passionate about promoting the feedlot industry unless they are financially benefiting.
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History also has shown that some people like to make up stories to sell their view. I have found the fish farm debate very interesting lately after reading the farmers point of view. There is alot of info that Morton leaves out or intentionally omits. It reminds me of this video. It has nothing to do with farming but I found it interesting.
http://youtu.be/N-nwqpw5l_0
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Thanks for all this SS but one always have to remember that science and people as a whole have made so many mistakes in the past and it is because of this the environment is in the mess it is today. History shows that.
We can be so thankful we have people that Alex and others that keep doing the work they do. Simple statements I know but one can not dispute that, well I do not think others can.
It is interesting you have mentioned science and people as a whole have made so many mistakes; however, wouldn't that include the science portrayed here also: http://salmonconfidential.ca/
I mean that was produced by scientists also...You can't blame science for the failings of society or say it is "questionable" (without thinking about it critically) when you disagree with it then embrace it when it suits you.
What you need to know is that two of the references I posted were used in Ms Morton's own blog. She uses them as justification for her lawsuit against the Federal Government and Marine Harvest. However, the difference is that Ms Morton either does not read the whole paper or she selectively takes what she wants from them to align with her opinion (I say it is the latter). Don't take my word for it, Chris. Read those references and see what they are saying.
I am passionate about having the facts of the matter presented here. Clearly, Ms Morton is not interested in them. While PRV has been found to be associated with HSMI it does not mean that it causes HSMI. If that were true that would mean that fish with high concentrations of PRV would develop HSMI. As I have clearly shown you from the literature (including Ms Morton's own references) that is simply not the case. To date, no farmed or wild salmon has been diagnosed with HSMI.
What is interesting from Morton's theory about PRV and HSMI is that she is suggesting that this may be the reason that adult Fraser Sockeye are having difficult time migrating upstream (i.e. HSMI causing "mushy" hearts). If you read the literature from Norway that Morton loves to quote it describes the timing of HSMI and concentration of PRV at various life stages. The fact is that HSMI primarily impacts younger fish - not adult fish. So, how does a deadly disease (i.e. HSMI) skip past the juvenile stage, where it is known to impact them, then magically appears to negatively impact the adult stage? Secondly, making that link with salmon carcasses that have been exposed to the elements for undetermined amount of time ignores the natural processes (putrefaction and autolysis) these adult salmon experience when they enter freshwater. Migrating salmon are putting all their resources into migrating and reproduction - not in body maintenance. You can' t just see a "mushy-looking" heart in a salmon carcass and say that it has to be caused by HSMI. That is like saying if someone is bleeding internally then they must be suffering from Ebola. You also cannot ignore the migratory physiology work (over 12 years) done by Scott Hinch and his team. Before saying something is suspicious one has to rule out what is naturally going on in the background. The proper histological examination work has to done also.
Lastly, you have to remember that PRV sequence has only recently been reported in 2010. It is quite possible that PRV has been around our waters for sometime, but we have not been looking for it.
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It is interesting you have mentioned science and people as a whole have made so many mistakes...............
Nicely written Stevey! ..and having the Hallelujah song playing in the background was a nice touch as well. ::)
Every time you post on this topic it's obvious that you are preaching rationalization for why it's okay for feedlots to remain in the ocean. I have yet to read anything that you have said that shows any concern for why wild salmon are dying. You could likely broaden the acceptance of your feedlot propaganda by saying at least a couple of things in favor of the existence of wild salmon.
Or is it because wild salmon don't provide the same financial returns? :o
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I found an image of AM and AF. You can clearly see that they are stuck in a position of seeing things their way.(http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/aquapaloosa/tunnel-vision_zps8c6f4663.jpg) (http://s944.photobucket.com/user/aquapaloosa/media/tunnel-vision_zps8c6f4663.jpg.html)
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Nicely written Stevey! ..and having the Hallelujah song playing in the background was a nice touch as well. ::)
Every time you post on this topic it's obvious that you are preaching rationalization for why it's okay for feedlots to remain in the ocean. I have yet to read anything that you have said that shows any concern for why wild salmon are dying. You could likely broaden the acceptance of your feedlot propaganda by saying at least a couple of things in favor of the existence of wild salmon.
Or is it because wild salmon don't provide the same financial returns? :o
Shuswapsteve most likely does more for wild salmon in a single working day hour than you do in a year af. I know you have attended a few cleanups on rivers and that is commendable; perhaps you do more, on other fronts and are too modest to speak of them. If that is the case I apologize now.
What I do see though is a constant stream of misinformed posts regarding salmon farming and how you think that applies to BC. You basically mimic Ms. Morton and the buffoon, Don Staniford.
Regarding protecting wild salmon, what is your stance on soon to come oil and gas pipelines, new hydroelectric proposals, over fishing by all user groups, pine beetle killed tree salvage, mining, gravel extraction, urban encroachment ... you know, the things that are really impacting today's wild salmon in BC?
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Nope just the feedlots, pipelines are safe, AF wants the pipelines pushed through dont ya banker boy.
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Shuswapsteve most likely does more for wild salmon in a single working day hour than you do in a year af. I know you have attended a few cleanups on rivers and that is commendable; perhaps you do more, on other fronts and are too modest to speak of them. If that is the case I apologize now.
What I do see though is a constant stream of misinformed posts regarding salmon farming and how you think that applies to BC. You basically mimic Ms. Morton and the buffoon, Don Staniford.
Regarding protecting wild salmon, what is your stance on soon to come oil and gas pipelines, new hydroelectric proposals, over fishing by all user groups, pine beetle killed tree salvage, mining, gravel extraction, urban encroachment ... you know, the things that are really impacting today's wild salmon in BC?
For me this discussion is not personal.
It is illogical for me to appreciate how someone can tout the virtues of ocean feedlots and care about wild salmon. There is enough evidence world wide to convince me that feedlot salmon farming should be done in parts of the world where they will not come in contact with wild salmon. Any available science is scarce and highly suspect.
Attacking me or Morton or anyone else who opposes ocean feedlots does little to further your cause (whatever that happens to be). I certainly don't stand to financially gain from my side of the discussion. How many of the feedlot boys can say the same?
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For me this discussion is not personal.
There is enough evidence world wide to convince me that feedlot salmon farming should be done in parts of the world where they will not come in contact with wild salmon.
We should farm pigs, cattle, and chickens in the Antarctic to be safe from avian flu and mad cow disease at the same time. There is a very good reason why there are no wild salmon in some parts of the world. The climate will not support them. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that. Unless you are looking through a small box.
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Nicely written Stevey! ..and having the Hallelujah song playing in the background was a nice touch as well. ::)
I find this quite effective for listening to the propagandists.... ( no salmon wild or frankenfarmed where injured in this post. )
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif.html)
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I find this quite effective for listening to the propagandists.... ( no salmon wild or frankenfarmed where injured in this post. )
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif.html)
Can you post the link you got that witty remark from NB? I know I have seen it from some sheeple before. :)
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For me this discussion is not personal.
It is illogical for me to appreciate how someone can tout the virtues of ocean feedlots and care about wild salmon. There is enough evidence world wide to convince me that feedlot salmon farming should be done in parts of the world where they will not come in contact with wild salmon. Any available science is scarce and highly suspect.
Attacking me or Morton or anyone else who opposes ocean feedlots does little to further your cause (whatever that happens to be). I certainly don't stand to financially gain from my side of the discussion. How many of the feedlot boys can say the same?
Please provide one direct quote of ShuswapSteve where he is "touting the virtues of ocean feedlots". Just one. I'll wait patiently.
Your myopic view and nonsensical rants against the thinkers on the board continue to diminish your credibility. Steve's livelihood depends 100% on wild salmon, and 0% on feedlot salmon. Same as mine, same as Dave's used to. While AlMo and clones like yourself continue to scream wolf, clear and imminent dangers to wild salmon populations fail to get the attention they deserve (see pipelines, climate change, mountain pine beetle impacts, water withdrawals, illegal or unreported high seas fishing, etc etc). AlMo clings desperately to her conspiracy theories, meanwhile ignoring the real issues.
If you're interested in directing your efforts into something tangible and productive (unlikely), here's a case of government interference that is getting no press, yet lies at the heart of the issue you claim to care so much about. The very first Wild Salmon Policy status assessment that was conducted in BC, on Fraser sockeye, was completed pretty much a year ago. The paper was ready to be published and released publicly, and would identify the biological status (red, yellow or green) or all Fraser sockeye Conservation Units. Nothing in here is a surprise, and yet Ottawa has muzzled its release. It got a short posting on here and then quickly fell away. The first step in addressing the real issues affecting wild salmon is assessing their status and then developing comprehensive plans to maintain diversity and conservation status while supporting sustainable fisheries (something you and AlMo seem to support, based on your stance on farmed fish and desire to chow down on wild salmon). Without the foundation of transparent scientific advice this isn't possible. I know you're not a fan of Google (or any form of research for that matter) but go have a look and see what you find.
AlMo fiddles while Rome continues to burn......
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Can you post the link you got that witty remark from NB? I know I have seen it from some sheeple before. :)
Sorry Fishfarmerbawb - Did you say something?
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif.html)
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Sorry Fishfarmerbawb - Did you say something?
Yes I asked a question and got the same old smart a$& answer from a sheeple. Here is another one. Do you think Anna is related to Morton? Very similar story. Read back on page 3. Some very well wrote remarks from the farmers. Morton and her sheeple need to step it up. The income for her is on the line.
http://youtu.be/EmVIJbD2ecY
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Nicely written Stevey! ..and having the Hallelujah song playing in the background was a nice touch as well. ::)
Every time you post on this topic it's obvious that you are preaching rationalization for why it's okay for feedlots to remain in the ocean. I have yet to read anything that you have said that shows any concern for why wild salmon are dying. You could likely broaden the acceptance of your feedlot propaganda by saying at least a couple of things in favor of the existence of wild salmon.
Or is it because wild salmon don't provide the same financial returns? :o
I understand you struggle with facts, AF. Sorry.
You have yet to actually read and understand anything I have posted so why start now? The image from Aquapaloosa says it all. If you Saviours of Wild Salmon actually cared about wild salmon like you say you do then you would take a greater interest in the scientific literature.
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There is enough evidence world wide to convince me that feedlot salmon farming should be done in parts of the world where they will not come in contact with wild salmon. Any available science is scarce and highly suspect.
Nicely written, AF
Hmmm.....so in the first sentence you say there is enough evidence then in the last sentence the available science is now scarce and highly suspect. The other day you said the current science is questionable at best.
Contact Morton mothership for some clarification. Rome is still burning....Cue "Rock Bottom" lol
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Nicely written, AF
Hmmm.....so in the first sentence you say there is enough evidence then in the last sentence the available science is now scarce and highly suspect. The other day you said the current science is questionable at best.
Contact Morton mothership for some clarification. Rome is still burning....Cue "Rock Bottom" lol
AF's statement couldn't be scripted any better as a practical example of the following:
http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mckenzie/nickersonConfirmationBias.pdf
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Yes I asked a question and got the same old smart a$& answer from a sheeple. Here is another one. Do you think Anna is related to Morton? Very similar story. Read back on page 3. Some very well wrote remarks from the farmers. Morton and her sheeple need to step it up. The income for her is on the line.
http://youtu.be/EmVIJbD2ecY
I'm sorry - Did you say something?
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif.html)