Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: sthdslayer on January 29, 2024, 12:32:59 PM
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https://mcmillan.ca/insights/publications/bc-government-consulting-on-new-law-to-give-indigenous-groups-control-over-crown-land-decisions/
Something all who access crown land for any recreational activity should be aware of.
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It the past it's usually ended up with a ruling like this
“reasonably balance” Indigenous and non-Indigenous interests"
The crown in most cases has rights over minerals, but fishing and hunting is different as often those were promised to first nations in order to get settlement and mineral rights.
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This time it is co-management
https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogetherbc/engagement/land-act-amendments/
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I don't see anything of immediate concern in either the Government release or the McMillan LP release. The latter is pretty clear the government objective concerns decisions about Crown Land tenure and specific infrastructure by corporations and other business organizations. There seems to be nothing that would impact individual members of the public who casually use Crown Land. Anyone with specific concerns can send them along via the communication links in release.
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I don't see anything of immediate concern.......
Of course you don't, but for the rest of us with our eyes open who ignore the TV and MSN telling us how to think and act, we all know what road this goes down.
Little by little until it is all gone....we will just hand over more and more to the Natives. It has been going on for decades and it isn't going to change anytime soon.
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Joffrey lake is a sample of things to vome
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20 years to get site C approved and built,
Provence is running out of electricity now during peak periods and legislation like this is just ensuring any future projects will never get approved.
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Provence is in France. However that is the root of the word you tried to spell
But BC has been growing and the weather has been getting both hotter and colder plus with less precipitation meaning lower reservoir levels so yeah demand has been rising while supply has been declining.
Tell you a secret only you don't seem to know.
BC imports electricity from the US in the winter months has for decades. Most of our reservoirs are low and can't operate at peak levels so it's nothing new. The grids are linked so we get power from the US. BC exports hydro power in summer when the demand is highest for our US neighbor. Historically BC is a net export so it's to our benefit.
Joffre Lakes Parks had recently been overrun with visitors. Kind of makes sense to shut it down during FN food gathering. It made sense to me. I think the total closure was 10 days or less.
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Upper Squamish area has "private property - do not trespass - Squamish Nation" signs all over the place. We'll see how this all play out.
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Squamish Nation councillor Khelsilem posted on social media platform X on Monday: “Governments exercise authority. Indigenous governments exercise authority over title lands as an Indigenous right. The colonial panic about this coming change is ridiculous.”
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Upper Squamish area has "private property - do not trespass - Squamish Nation" signs all over the place. We'll see how this all play out.
it won't play out well. 4% of the population will have control over 94% of the land in BC.
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The Calder court ruling that established that unless otherwise modified via a treaty, aboriginal title still exists over most Crown land in BC, is over 50 years old. So yeah in a certain respect the chicken little reaction is ridiculous.
Another point Crown title and aboriginal title exist at the same time. That's much like fee simple title. Fee simple allows the holder certain rights but is subordinate to Crown title. Aboriginal title supersedes all other title excepting Crown title.
On way to address a situation such as FNs posting title lands (and also in the Skeena) is to negotiate treaties so spell out who controls what lands and the extent of their right to control or limit access or to license development. The Province dragged it's feet on this for well over 100 years and the first treaty wasn't put into effect until 2000. Few have bee finalized since. The process is laboriously slow and both levels of government limit the number of FN groups they will negotiate with to a small number.
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it won't play out well. 4% of the population will have control over 94% of the land in BC.
The story is being covered by CKNW lots, yesterday and today they had lawyers and NDP responses. NDP is saying this was always there as part of federal law, FNs need to be consulted over crown land use as they have title , this was the natural step after signing UNDRiP into law NDP says. They don’t understand why this is making news.
The layers agree but this said is different in that in of just needing the government approval you would need First Nation approval as well not just consult and that perhaps this would give them a veto. What would happen if the government approved them but First Nations said no as this implies you need both to approve.
There really is no details available tho on what the
Actual implementation or legislation is going to be.
Said there is 40 thousand tenures that could be effected.
sky resorts, marinas, fish farms, roads, right of ways, ect
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I think it's good this gets into the public sphere as people can Government's attention. Make sure you provide your feedback. Squawking on line get's ignored. No reason that FNs can't get some power over approvals, perhaps get some portion of tenure fees and there still public access for casual use such as hiking, fishing and hunting.
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I think it's good this gets into the public sphere as people can Government's attention. Make sure you provide your feedback. Squawking on line get's ignored. No reason that FNs can't get some power over approvals, perhaps get some portion of tenure fees and there still public access for casual use such as hiking, fishing and hunting.
yup
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https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blogs/bc-governments-plan-to-co-manage-public-land-with-first-nations-will-close-province-for-business?fbclid=IwAR0TaoYIrgH9ruOKL1TuXmNpHFUhoNGozIgS4pX_sqBnOLug7ZcIeN11Dz8
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https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blogs/bc-governments-plan-to-co-manage-public-land-with-first-nations-will-close-province-for-business?fbclid=IwAR0TaoYIrgH9ruOKL1TuXmNpHFUhoNGozIgS4pX_sqBnOLug7ZcIeN11Dz8
some people will dismiss anything the Fraser institute says
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well face it they represent their funders.
I'd also say I know or have known some pretty 'conservative' people who attend talks at the Fraser Institute regularly but would disagree with their take. Those folks think we need to bring FNs into the economy on their terms. Most businesses coming into BC don't care much who they deal with but more about the total cost & how reliable the situation is... long term stability is the big issue for them.
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https://www.conservativebc.ca/public_land
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https://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-scrapping-land-act-amendments-plagued-by-misinformation-minister-says-1.6778107
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https://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-scrapping-land-act-amendments-plagued-by-misinformation-minister-says-1.6778107
with the election coming the NDP had to blink so they can trick the voters.
Now everyone will forget about this and after the election when the NDP is voted back in they will pass it with no issues.
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this. :/
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In the "Sky is Falling foofaraw" most "commentators" seemed to miss what the posted engagements summaries actually said:
The proposed amendments to the Land Act will:
Allow individuals who fish, hunt and recreate to continue to do so on the land, and will allow ranchers and farmers to continue their way of life and important work.
Have no effect on tenures, renewals, private properties, or access to crown land.
Provide durability of decisions that will help to unlock B.C.’s economic potential."
Ensure transparency and public consultation in any future agreement on shared decision-making negotiated by a First Nation and the Province.
Require that the public, stakeholders and proponents are engaged in the discussion of any agreement that contemplates changes or impacts to the public or third-party interests.
The proposed amendments to the Land Act will not:
Lead to broad, sweeping, or automatic changes.
Provide a ‘veto.’ This has been acknowledged by First Nations and legal experts.
Compel the government to enter into an agreement as both the Provincial and a First Nation government need to make an active decision to enter into a negotiation for shared decision-making.
it's all spelled out contrary to so many fears - fishing, hunting farming on Crown Land will continue as it has for all - there will be no changes
There will be no veto for FNs
Government is not compelled to enter into a agreement with FNs.
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https://bc.ctvnews.ca/first-nations-leaders-disgusted-that-opposition-derailed-proposed-bc-land-act-amendments-1.6779515#:~:text=British%20Columbia's%20First%20Nations%20Leadership,the%20use%20of%20public%20land.
British Columbia's First Nations Leadership Council is expressing extreme disappointment over the provincial government's decision to drop planned amendments to the Land Act that would have cleared the way for a shared decision-making process with First Nations when it comes to the use of public land.
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... and they ought to be. The knee jerk bigoted reaction still functions perfectly in this Province. Shame!
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Difference of opinion on how nation to nation negotiations should be handled does not make one a bigot. Although I do see the advantage of painting the opposition as such
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Difference of opinion on how nation to nation negotiations should be handled does not make one a bigot. Although I do see the advantage of painting the opposition as such
Always best to paint a difference of opinion has being a bigot. Ever notice how it seems only colonials are bigots/racist but never ever anyone on the other side?
I do wonder when this does get changed (thinking NDP win next election) what the future will hold in a few years once a FN band does not get their way and take the decision to court and the ruling comes down under the adopted UNDRIP law.
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Bigotry, prejudice, racism these are all terms that describe particular kinds of opinions and beliefs about "othered" groups of people that are not supported evidence or facts. While the insecurity and fear of changes the proposed changes to the Land Act are typical, the accusations that there is an hidden agenda to restrict access to a particular group, revoke customary rights to "the commons" and deny due process are not and not supported by facts or evidence. That these false claims are as usually hung on FNs (and there political allies) , is consistent with "B", "P" and "R" terms that have consistently characterized such "negotiations" in BC for over a century and a half. So it is pretty hard to wiggle out of such descriptions given that history and how consistent the hysterical opposition is to that history.
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Bigotry, prejudice, racism these are all terms that describe particular kinds of opinions and beliefs about "othered" groups of people that are not supported evidence or facts. While the insecurity and fear of changes the proposed changes to the Land Act are typical, the accusations that there is an hidden agenda to restrict access to a particular group, revoke customary rights to "the commons" and deny due process are not and not supported by facts or evidence. That these false claims are as usually hung on FNs (and there political allies) , is consistent with "B", "P" and "R" terms that have consistently characterized such "negotiations" in BC for over a century and a half. So it is pretty hard to wiggle out of such descriptions given that history and how consistent the hysterical opposition is to that history.
Ask any non first nations hunter (moose especially) who has regularly been hunting region 6, 7, and the west half of region 5 for over 30 years about the changes and access restrictions that have taken place (more keep coming with every passing year), and even you'll find your entire post is complete BS. Non first nations fishermen and hunters are being discriminated against more than ever these days and you know I'm right. The example I provided is one of many. I could post 20 more, but you'll just reply with your normal political word salad full of big words with no substance.
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Word salad, that’s pretty funny.
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Anyone who thinks the “other” group isn’t extremely eager to have full control of all these things being discussed here is delusional and I don’t blame them for trying either. Human nature to want to have more control. I am not First Nations myself but I have many First Nations friends and family, including my eldest daughter who I adopted 32 years ago. Many discussions we’ve had about these things. Trust me a large portion of them want it all ! Many just want equal access for all. As far as B, P and R the other side is equally as guilty of those things. There’s my two cents for what that’s worth.
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Anyone who thinks the “other” group isn’t extremely eager to have full control of all these things... Human nature to want to have more control.
Maybe they are but the apparent facts are they aren't about to get that through this process and that rather than Human nature, is the issue.
I'd also say that most people who at least have some awareness of how "human nature" might effect their impulses in a negative way are able to resist such impulses and reach more equitable sorts of social contracts. If that were not true we wouldn't things like democracy and many of it's features.
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Funny you should mention democracy. Democracy is about majority rule. In a democracy, public land is administered by officials elected by the majority, and not administered by a small minority of a specific ancestry.
And yes iblly I also don't blame them for wanting it all. I mean who doesn't?
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You’re correct Ralph that was the issue being discussed in the beginning here but you quickly steer things in another direction, as you do, when you point out someone’s spelling mistake in your second post on the subject. Why ? Followed by “bigotry, prejudice, racism” etc. All I was pointing is that I’ve had discussions with First Nations people about these very subjects and I have some insight.
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Funny you should mention democracy. Democracy is about majority rule. In a democracy, public land is administered by officials elected by the majority, and not administered by a small minority of a specific ancestry.
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That's only partially true. Most democracies are constitutional democracies and the constitutions lays out basic rules, limits and protections of freedoms and minorities. Even in non-constitutional governments such as the UK Common Law system there are laws that limit what the "majority" can invoke on minorities. Democracy does not automatically mean majority rules and practically it does not. It's basic political right for individuals is we all get to vote for who we'd like to be part of government. That vote doesn't mean a voter has a voice in government or even a representative who they helped select. The majority of voters in fact do not in Canada where most governments are formed by parties that receive less than 50% of popular support. Most democratic governments are in essence a coalition of different interests that forms together around a few common goals. Even the parties that form governments in almost all democracies are similar coalitions of different interests - so no majority rule doesn't really typify democracies - dictatorships often are but democracies are about selecting governments based on wide public participation via the ballot box.
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You’re correct Ralph that was the issue being discussed in the beginning here but you quickly steer things in another direction, as you do, when you point out someone’s spelling mistake in your second post on the subject. Why ? Followed by “bigotry, prejudice, racism” etc.
Well I am otherwise at a loss to explain the immense bad faith expressed by many people on so many issues concerning FN participation in land management. Perhaps someone has a better explanation other than "a difference of opinion".
I pointed out in my first post there was absolutely nothing to support concerns about FNs getting a veto or broader control over use of Crown land. So even when the government admits they managed the consultation process badly and withdrew it these accusations got worse. As I have said before I have worked in government and have seen this sort of things happen before. Sometimes these processes are F'd up and they meet opposition because of that but that is all it is - a F'd up. That isn't evidence of a conspiracy.
re: Provence vs Province - get a life ibilly - you need a sense of humor. That was so mild! Besides the post I responded to was off topic.
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Very mild but very Ralph. I have a lovely life thank you. Enjoy your Sunday.
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has anyone actually seen the exact legislative changes the government is/was proposing or is it "trust me, everything will be fine. We are looking after the best interests of the people of BC" ?
I see how that's going for hunters in BC. Science is out the door on management decisions being made.
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has anyone actually seen the exact legislative changes the government is/was proposing or is it "trust me, everything will be fine. We are looking after the best interests of the people of BC" ?
I see how that's going for hunters in BC. Science is out the door on management decisions being made.
What they did to non FN moose hunters in 7b is absolutely criminal. Science had NOTHING to do with the decisions made there. The FN wanted us out of their hunting grounds for moose and they got what they wanted. Coming soon to other hunting areas in the near future......
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What they did to non FN moose hunters in 7b is absolutely criminal. Science had NOTHING to do with the decisions made there. The FN wanted us out of their hunting grounds for moose and they got what they wanted. Coming soon to other hunting areas in the near future......
What a lot of folks don't realize is how remote some of these communities are. With that remoteness comes chronic under employment and lack of resources. Many folks can't drive an hour to town to spend a few hundred on groceries. They rely on an abundance of game close by to fill their freezer throughout the year. Like it or not they have a constitutional right to live that way and we are compelled to support it.
With that said there were *hundreds* of moose LEH authorizations provided to non FN hunters in 7b last fall.
edit: 1,837 LEH moose tags were issued for 7b last year...
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Funny you should mention democracy. Democracy is about majority rule. In a democracy, public land is administered by officials elected by the majority, and not administered by a small minority of a specific ancestry.
And yes iblly I also don't blame them for wanting it all. I mean who doesn't?
We probably should have thought of that when they were the majority and we, as the minority came in and messed it up, I guess.
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We probably should have thought of that when they were the majority and we, as the minority came in and messed it up, I guess.
Amen to that! My further thought on what Roderick said was who is the majority and what makes you (and a few others) think you speak for them?
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has anyone actually seen the exact legislative changes the government is/was proposing or is it "trust me, everything will be fine. We are looking after the best interests of the people of BC" ?
I see how that's going for hunters in BC. Science is out the door on management decisions being made.
there weren't any as yet as in no changes to the law had been officially drafted. Did you read what was on the Government website? It was just a rough sketch and they were looking for public input.
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Upper Squamish area has "private property - do not trespass - Squamish Nation" signs all over the place. We'll see how this all play out.
If you have Google Earth you can get a plugin that will then display all the FN Reservations in Canada. There is quite a lot of land from the the Cheakamus Mouth into the upper Valley that is reservation land and it is private it is also not Provincial Crown land so not impacted by any changes to the Land Act in this regard.
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We probably should have thought of that when they were the majority and we, as the minority came in and messed it up, I guess.
Ya well things were different back then. Each FN band was on it's own. They would send war canoes to the neighboring bands to raid for slaves and women. Dead Mans Island in Stanley park was the site of a big battle where many warriors were killed on both sides. There were no metal tools because there were no mines. Governments were hereditary. Ya, I guess we messed that up.
But even if we wanted to, we can't go back. We have to live together in the world that exists today.
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Amen to that! My further thought on what Roderick said was who is the majority and what makes you (and a few others) think you speak for them?
I don't speak for anyone Ralph. I just don't think that 5% of the population should be allowed the powers of government simply because of their race. It never works out well.
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I don't speak for anyone Ralph. ...
that's a good thing as on this topic nothing you have said makes any sense.
Cheers
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If you have Google Earth you can get a plugin that will then display all the FN Reservations in Canada. There is quite a lot of land from the the Cheakamus Mouth into the upper Valley that is reservation land and it is private it is also not Provincial Crown land so not impacted by any changes to the Land Act in this regard.
Do you have a link to the plugin? I could not find it.
To the best of my knowledge these signs are on Crown Land. If it was on reserve land I could respect that.
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the link to the Canada Lands users guide: https://clss.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/clss-satc/pdfs/canada-lands-in-google-earth-en.pdf
install instructions on Pg 11 - they call it an overlay
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the link to the Canada Lands users guide: https://clss.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/clss-satc/pdfs/canada-lands-in-google-earth-en.pdf
install instructions on Pg 11 - they call it an overlay
Thanks. As I mentioned originally the signs are all over the Upper Squamish area. It's crown land where all the signs are located which was confirmed by the overlay.