Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: CohoJake on April 21, 2016, 10:55:23 AM
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Anyone else notice this on the DFO website? Chinook Jul 01-Aug 31 4 per day, only 1 over 62 cm. Sep 01-Dec 31 4 per day, only 2 over 62 cm. http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/fresh-douce/region2-eng.html (http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/fresh-douce/region2-eng.html)
I wonder what the reason for the change is. Are they anticipating a huge run for fall 2016, or is it to make up for the dismal coho predictions?
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Annual limit still 10 I assume? I'd be interested to hear the rationale behind this too.
It appears the Capilano and Chehalis also are at 2 adult chinook per day. Is that new as well?
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Annual limit still 10 I assume? I'd be interested to hear the rationale behind this too.
It appears the Capilano and Chehalis also are at 2 adult chinook per day. Is that new as well?
I had not noticed those - and for the Chehalis it includes the summer chinook!
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This will be addressed tonight at the Fraser Valley Salmon Society AGM when Nick provides an overview of the salmon forecast.
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=39696.0
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Will any information or minutes from the meeting be made available to the public afterwards? I don’t mind paying the membership fees for access to the info but no possibility of getting to Chilliwack today.
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Didn't they release more Chinook for the anticipated extra visitors for the Olympics and that these are now the returning off-spring from that surplus?
I hope this wasn't a mistake and that we're truly into a fun salmon season.
Maybe this was done to take the edge off what may be another No Sockeye in freshwater season.
Hmmm - I'm curious for the answer.
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No sockeye till 2018 guarnteed.
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Chinook forecast for this year is much better than even last years. Supposedly record returns coming our way. At least that might offset the predicted super poor coho returns.
If the numbers predicted holds true, then the increased limit is no problem. That, and those Chinook are not a native stock anyway.
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Chinook forecast for this year is much better than even last years. Supposedly record returns coming our way. At least that might offset the predicted super poor coho returns.
If the numbers predicted holds true, then the increased limit is no problem. That, and those Chinook are not a native stock anyway.
I will remain cautiously optimistic. Thanks!
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Abundance of Chinook? The Super Trawlers are on their way - don't you worry about there being too many Chinook. Once these floating, city sized fish processing plants drop their nets they are going to remove entire runs from their 4 -year cycles.
Someone is surely going to scoop them up before we get a chance to drop a bar rig. I sure hope I'm wrong.
Maybe they're forecasting a good long snow pack melt with moderate summer temperatures.
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I understand this reg has been changed back to 1 per day.
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I understand this reg has been changed back to 1 per day.
I'll watch for the change, but as of this morning the website still has 2 per day. I guess it won't really matter until June 1 on the Chehalis.
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I'll watch for the change, but as of this morning the website still has 2 per day. I guess it won't really matter until June 1 on the Chehalis.
I thought it was still was at 2 but when I brought it up at the Fraser Valley Salmon Society AGM meeting last night I was informed it was back to 1 because of concerns by the Hatchery obtaining enough brood stock.
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...I was informed it was back to 1 because of concerns by the Hatchery obtaining enough brood stock.
That's fair enough. If the returns actually end of being high enough to justify increased retention they can always make an in-season change like we see from time to time for other species. Not really into retaining springs personally, but its nice to hear any positive news regarding salmon return numbers after a bad news re: coho, pinks, chum etc for several years now...
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Hope they keep it to 1. From September and on, most people will be targeting Coho anyway and won't let a spring take the daily salmon slot of 4 fish. It is enough stinky smell to put 1 slimy white into your car, and 2 whites will likely cause upset stomach on the way back to home. LOL. ;D ;D
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It was changed to 2 per day as the fall Chinook run has huge surpluses make their way back to the hatchery. Taxpayers pay for the production of these fish, there is no natural spawning in the river, so limits were increased to allow anyone who happens to have a thing for whites to keep an extra.
It's not expected it will have much of an impact overall on harvest. Chehalis summers were also opened up to 2/day as there are big numbers that escape into the canyon and aren't needed for spawning (it's a transplanted stock).
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Any UNKEPT fish feed the ecosystem when they die.
That is one of the reasons some systems are stocked with them.
Others are fed (and or supplemented) with bags of fertilizer (NO, not the kind you get at home depot) that is hiked in to strategic spots by volunteers.
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It was changed to 2 per day as the fall Chinook run has huge surpluses make their way back to the hatchery. Taxpayers pay for the production of these fish, there is no natural spawning in the river, so limits were increased to allow anyone who happens to have a thing for whites to keep an extra.
It's not expected it will have much of an impact overall on harvest. Chehalis summers were also opened up to 2/day as there are big numbers that escape into the canyon and aren't needed for spawning (it's a transplanted stock).
I've seen the big whites spawning in lots of sections of the Vedder/Chilliwack system. They are spawning naturally in there.
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Most (more than half most years) of the uncaught Chinook in the Vedder end up in totes at the hatchery. But yes, some attempt to spawn and then die in the river.
As this stock is transplanted from the Harrison River, they aren't able to successfully recruit when they spawn in the Chilliwack (save for maybe a few that spawn in Sweltzer Creek). This stock evolved to spawn very late in the Harrison, as the large, stable lake-regulated flow provided the ATUs needed to get them up and out of the gravel in time to hit the Strait when the groceries are there. Spawning in the mainstream Harrison = a safe reproductive strategy. Spawning in the mainstem Chilliwack = a not so safe reproductive strategy, cold water and big winter flows.
Marking of hatchery fish shows that ~98% of the fish that return are from the hatchery, not from natural spawners. It's a put and take stock.
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I've seen the big whites spawning in lots of sections of the Vedder/Chilliwack system. They are spawning naturally in there.
True, they do spawn, but as dnibbles said, there is virtually no recruitment from these fish, except for the possibility of Swelzter Creek spawners. They are originally from the Harrison River and typically rear for up 90 days in freshwater. This works very well on the H where the river is far more productive, warmer, and has a superb short term rearing area, Harrison Bay.
The mid Chilliwack to lower Vedder, where most of these fall white Chinooks spawn, is a very poor rearing area for this stock ... too cold and not enough food to keep them alive till migration.
Edit. nibbs beat me to it!
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Good to see you back nibs ;D
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True, they do spawn, but as dnibbles said, there is virtually no recruitment from these fish, except for the possibility of Swelzter Creek spawners. They are originally from the Harrison River and typically rear for up 90 days in freshwater. This works very well on the H where the river is far more productive, warmer, and has a superb short term rearing area, Harrison Bay.
The mid Chilliwack to lower Vedder, where most of these fall white Chinooks spawn, is a very poor rearing area for this stock ... too cold and not enough food to keep them alive till migration.
Edit. nibbs beat me to it!
Nibbs and Dave
Good info, thanks for posting
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Good to see you back nibs ;D
I've been off here for a year and a half Dave, and yet I see you and Steve are still going strong on the fish farming stuff! Like I never left!
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Am I the only one who has seen Red Springs in Chillliwack Lake in August?....and yes I do know the difference between Springs and Sockeye.
I'm positive these Red Springs must have some limited success in spawning
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Am I the only one who has seen Red Springs in Chillliwack Lake in August?....and yes I do know the difference between Springs and Sockeye.
I'm positive these Red Springs must have some limited success in spawning
Extremely limited success. They are transplanted from upper Fraser tributary stocks and are not well adapted to the water temperatures in the Chilliwack River as they spawn when the water temperature is still rising, meaning they accumulate ATU's too quickly. The eggs hatch and fry emerge from the gravel in late winter when food is scarce. As these fish spend a year in the river before smolting, getting an early start on food is critical for their survival. The probably extinct indigenous stock that historically spawned in the upper Chilliwack did so app one month later than the transplanted stock.
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Extremely limited success. They are transplanted from upper Fraser tributary stocks and are not well adapted to the water temperatures in the Chilliwack River as they spawn when the water temperature is still rising, meaning they accumulate ATU's too quickly. The eggs hatch and fry emerge from the gravel in late winter when food is scarce. As these fish spend a year in the river before smolting, getting an early start on food is critical for their survival. The probably extinct indigenous stock that historically spawned in the upper Chilliwack did so app one month later than the transplanted stock.
Might these be the indigenous stock he is seeing spawn in the lake? Or are/were the native stock a different color when spawning?
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Might these be the indigenous stock he is seeing spawn in the lake? Or are/were the native stock a different color when spawning?
Possibly but unlikely as Robert_ G said he saw them in August; the indigenous stock spawned at the end of September.
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Possibly but unlikely as Robert_ G said he saw them in August; the indigenous stock spawned at the end of September.
If they are similar to the native spring chinook on the south fork of the Nooksack, they may hand around "staging" for quite a while - like all summer, before they actually get down to spawning. That has been why the Nooksack run continues to struggle - they return to the river in late spring and early summer and are in the river when the water drops and temps really heat up, making them very vulnerable to anglers and general harassment from inner tubers and other people on the river. I think I read in other threads that the native chilliwack chinook return starting in early spring, and it wasn't unheard of to encounter them while steelheading. Does anyone know how long the native stock would rear in the lake or river before their outmigration?
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Pure speculation on my part but I would think the indigenous chinooks would have had a similar life history as most red fleshed chinook stocks, that is 1-2 years in the river before smolting. You can bet on one thing, there will be no data, other than anecdotal, to verify much about these fish. Most people don't even know they existed.
I fished them in the late 60's and up until the mid 70's ... they were never abundant but perseverance would get you into a few every year. Catching was dependant on the freshet, as back then the C-V actually did get one, and because of the high water, landing these super charged fish was difficult. The largest I saw was a fish I estimated to be 35 lbs, hooked in the Boulder Hole. You can guess the result ;D
We started fishing for them in June, early July and although I and a few buddies caught a few in August, we pretty much considered it done at that time.
Did they go into Chilliwack Lake, stage until sexually mature, then drop back and spawn? Who knows ... The staging in lakes seems to be a water temperature related strategy (like Cultus and Harrison sockeye); the upper Chilliwack is always cold so I can't see why these indigenous fish would do that ...
They were magnificent fish and I hope a few are still around, and I wish DFO back in the day had spent a bit more time and effort in enhancing that run, rather than fish entirely unsuited for the C-V. My $.02
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There are occasionally still a few of those indigenous ones around, the hatchery last got their hands on a pair about 8 years ago. DNA from them indicates they are closely related to Nooksack River Chinook, not surprising given the likely connection at high water back in the Sumas Lake days. I've got a photo of one in spawning colours kicking around somewhere, they are a different looking fish than the transplanted mutts.
I'd be amazed if these things are able to hold on for another decade, given that there are two transplanted Chinook stocks in the river competing with them and likely introgressing with them. Which brings me back to the original topic here, which is why it would be a good thing if people would bonk more of the hatchery enhanced Chinook in this system!
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Like I said nibbs, glad you're back as you make this site better ;)
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through September you can go to the hope slough (NO FISHING FOR SALMON) and see red springs spawning everywhere. I counted around 20 in one small section of gravel a couple years ago.
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Actually I believe they're whites, transplanted from the Chilliwack or Inch Creek Hatchery. Over to you nibbs ...
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There are occasionally still a few of those indigenous ones around, the hatchery last got their hands on a pair about 8 years ago. DNA from them indicates they are closely related to Nooksack River Chinook, not surprising given the likely connection at high water back in the Sumas Lake days. I've got a photo of one in spawning colours kicking around somewhere, they are a different looking fish than the transplanted mutts.
I'd be amazed if these things are able to hold on for another decade, given that there are two transplanted Chinook stocks in the river competing with them and likely introgressing with them. Which brings me back to the original topic here, which is why it would be a good thing if people would bonk more of the hatchery enhanced Chinook in this system!
The Nooksack actually has two genetically distinct summer runs, one in the south fork, and one in the middle and north forks. Work is underway with hatchery enhancement to save both runs, but the south fork run at one point numbered just a handful of fish. A recent federal study concluded that the south fork chinook are likely to be victim of climate change, since summers like the one we had last year will quickly eliminate the run completely. I wonder if parties could cooperate enough to try to salvage this run in the chilliwack by mixing with the native stock there, since the upper chilliwack never lacks cold water.
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Actually I believe they're whites, transplanted from the Chilliwack or Inch Creek Hatchery. Over to you nibbs ...
Could be wrong Dave but I'm pretty sure these are transplanted Maria Slough red chinook. I think Matt Foy was behind this project and Inch Creek did the fish culture.
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Could be wrong Dave but I'm pretty sure these are transplanted Maria Slough red chinook. I think Matt Foy was behind this project and Inch Creek did the fish culture.
Yeah, I believe you're correct- my mistake. Least I got the Inch Creek part ...
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The Hope Slough Chinook are 100% reds..
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Native Chilliwack red chinook are all but extinct. Hatchery staff have tried for several years to obtain brood stock to no avail. The last time we floated to try and locate adults we counted less than 10 fish.
These were scattered over a 15 km section in the upper river which is darn near impossible to seine.
Gill nets have been used with limited success.
Next best idea would be to transplant NIcola river chinook into the Chilliwack in place of the current Slim creek stock. Size of fish would be smaller but run timing would be closer to that of indigenous stock.
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I fished for those native Chilliwack River Chinooks back in the early 1970's.
They were magnificent fish! The bulk of them were 15 to 25 pounds, very chrome and extremely strong fighters making them very hard to land!
As Dave and Buck mentioned they were very hard to find even back in those days.
It's really sad that they couldn't be enhanced by the hatchery, it would have made a fantastic summer fishery.
The other thing I noticed with that run was very few jacks.
My fishing partners and I had a favorite phrase when one of us hooked one of the fish over 20 pounds: "you got it but you don't got it!"
because even though you hooked it, odds were it would be lost!
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So true spoiler! Gawd, they were strong ;) My personal best (landed) was a fish of about 15 lbs; largest I saw landed was 24 lbs by the late John Mair, and I believe Buck landed one about 23 lbs ... he might want to tell that story as I recall the battle was epic.
I remember chucking a Croc out in the Long Run and watching a fish of about 25lbs follow it in but not taking. In that run, at the water level of the day, I would have had a good chance of landing it, oh well.
I do remember catching 2 jacks but they were the only ones I recall ever seeing.
Do you remember the char that were with these chinooks? silver bright fish of 3-6 lbs, red fleshed, delicious, and very plentiful. Ah, the good old days :D
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I love hearing stories from the good old days :) :'(
so why do all of the rivers down south have fall run red chinooks and not us?
One of my buddies told me that all of the fall run chinooks are reds and most of them are huge 20-40lbers.
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Could be wrong Dave but I'm pretty sure these are transplanted Maria Slough red chinook. I think Matt Foy was behind this project and Inch Creek did the fish culture.
Bkk is correct, Maria Slough transplants. The enhancement stopped a few years back, so any fish in there now would be naturally spawned fish. The hatchery is trying to monitor returns to see if this transplant takes hold, if you've got info on where aggregations of fish have been reserved can you PM me?
There are quite a few fall red runs on Vancouver Island, it's just the Lower Mainland ones that are exclusively whites. That's because they're all from just one stock (Harrison) which has been transplanted into several rivers (Cap, Chilliwack, Alouette, Coquitlam). Although outside of the Fraser there may be some fall reds nearby elsewhere.......
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This has been a great thread - thanks all.
I have a couple comments -questions
White springs - though I have been been 'up that way' my understanding is many of the larger glacial streams on the mainland south cost such as the Squamish, Toba, the Bute Inlet rivers and perhaps futher are predominantly whites. I have read Rivers Inlet gets a run of both whites and reds with the reds primarily spawning below Owikeno Lake. Anyone know if this is so?
The first big returns of whites to the V-C were generally acknowledged to negatively effect the coho fishing - they pushed the coho out of formerly prime holding water - coho preferred not to hold near springs and generally moved upstream quickly. Springs were primarily introduced to supplement the saltwater fishing in the Straight - not to provide a terminal river fishery - and in some ways they aren't that great for that (primarily they lose table quality rapidly). If the don't reproduce why not just let them disappear and put the river back into a more natural state?
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Springs were primarily introduced to supplement the saltwater fishing in the Straight - not to provide a terminal river fishery - and in some ways they aren't that great for that (primarily they lose table quality rapidly). If the don't reproduce why not just let them disappear and put the river back into a more natural state?
I know it's hard to believe but a lot of people like catching, and even eating these fish. Besides, what else will the noobs put in their black plastic garbage bags, lol!
Seriously, the carcasses do provide some nutrient valu to the system, and they do a great job of cleaning the gravel in Sweltzer Creek, potentially increasing chum egg survivals.
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Whites are so easy to catch so most people targeting them will have some meat to take home. Without the whites, those guys who have a hard time catching a coho may be tempted to poach a wild coho if they have nothing to take home. I will say keep the whites. Ya, they surely nourish the river with their massive size when they die. LOL.
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After experiencing my best late Chinook season ever this past year, I can say that the whites that we all caught on the strait were awesome fighters and awesome table fare as well ;). The whites provide a great late summer Chinook experience for anyone who can get out on the salt, starting in late August. Lots of these fish are monsters too! This past year, we had multiple full limit days (reds, marbles and whites) 8). Being out on the water back then, I remember thinking that since the local Chinook fishing was so good, why bother going over to the west coast of the island. This has to be good for the local economy (launches, gas, tackle stores, etc.).