Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: dave c on July 19, 2017, 12:08:44 PM
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Was out yesterday. First time since steelheading season. Water was prime. Nothing for me. Didn't see any taken nor any rollers. No sockeye seen. Talked to a few guys who have been out several times, and they said they have seen any taken but have heard of a few. If memory serves me right, in the past by now they should be abundant. Any ideas on what is going on?
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Yes 2 straight years of extreme poor returns on vedder and Chehalis, obviously a extreme concern. I also think if people find these fish they also shut up cause they stay in one spot, so maybe hope?
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I had a couple adventures last year around this time for Red Springs on the Vedder. Saw lots of Sockeye rolling around Yarrow and one huge Spring all by himself in the hatchery channel - but no battles fought or fish to shore :(. Didn't hear or see anyone landing anything either.
Still waiting to cross that one off my "landed species" list and on to my BBQ! Had we been successful, I think we would have been a bit tight-lipped as we covered a lot of water those days from canal to hatchery - think you just have to get out and explore - and hope to get lucky and find the fish in the system.
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Agree with all of the obove ^
Summer red springs on the Vedder is more like Steelheading. You have to cover water and find the fish. Was out over the weekend and Saturday saw some black Sockeye rolling and a couple springs mixed in - also black as night - next day didnt see a fish all day. Both days, nothing bit nothing played nothing landed
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Spent a few outtings on the chedder last year and year before. Hooked one on a spoon that made a couple runs and then spat the hook. Year before landed one drifting roe but both were late season and released the landed one because it was a bit coloured up.
I thought last year or maybe the year before was said to be a somewhat decent return for the first time in a long time for the cultus sockeyes?
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Last year was a stronger than usual run of Sockeye . Not so much this year
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I have video from 3 yrs ago when on one drift i see 4 springs roll. Finding them was NEVER an issue. Not so much now.
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Poor return for sure so far for both sockeye and red springs. Although I found a couple fish early on in July fishing has since dried up for me and I will not be going out much anymore.
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3 years ago. Spectacular. Low water. Good return, brown road was full of fish
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Up at Chilliwack Lake there have been a fairly number of Sockeye in the spawning channel but I haven't seen any springs yet (mind you, my monitoring isn't consistent by any stretch).
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There is no spawning channel at Chilliwack Lake ... do you mean the Upper Chilliwack River?
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I'm referring to the mouth of the Chilliwack River at the outlet of Chilliwack Lake.
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Ah, the newly enhanced gravel pad ;) Thanks for the clarification.
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10 in the hatchery today
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10 in the hatchery today
Very depressing
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Looked over the keith Wilson today and there was none in sight. Noticed around the 15th of July a Indian was killing sockeye Behind the reserve just up from crossing. One young guy had about 4-5 sockeye on a string walking down the rd. I Dont know where they were netting though.Honestly what do we expect... give them the green light to start netting these fish they aren't going to stop regardless of run sizes. I used to report them consistently on the vedder but now it's pointless. They need to draw the river back away from that stink hole.
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Looked over the keith Wilson today and there was none in sight. Noticed around the 15th of July a Indian was killing sockeye Behind the reserve just up from crossing. One young guy had about 4-5 sockeye on a string walking down the rd. I Dont know where they were netting though.Honestly what do we expect... give them the green light to start netting these fish they aren't going to stop regardless of run sizes. I used to report them consistently on the vedder but now it's pointless. They need to draw the river back away from that stink hole.
It is not just FN causing the fishing problems on the Vedder and other rivers. Over the years, I have seen and reported many people of other ethnic backgrounds on various river systems. The Thompson River which is in worse shape then the Vedder is a perfect example of the poaching and over fishing problem.
Also in regards to the lack of Chinook on the river, need to look how many Chinook are being taken in the salt around here. Every week on FB and other social media, there are plenty of images of Chinook being caught in the local waters by locals, charters, lodges etc. Extrapolate that by how many don't post to social media and also consider the total take of Chinook in all coastal BC waters and it equates to thousands per week. I know that over on the sportfishing bc forum, Fishin_Magician recently ran some numbers such as this and he was criticized somewhat, but there is a lot of truth in those numbers as those thousands of Chinook caught weekly in the salt has an obvious impact on the Chinook not returning to the local rivers.
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I'm just reporting what I saw. Obviously it's not just First Nations Poaching... just mostly. But I don't see any fishermen walking around bonking sockeye and throwing nets out with no consequences. Grab a fishing rod and do it like the rest of us. Quit acting like savages. I may not know a ton about ocean survival or speculation about where the stocks are going but I've grown up on this river and it's horrible to watch this neglect and lack of enforcement.
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Was out today all over the river , I am very knowledgeable about this run and this is going to be a poor return on the whole. Last year was worse though. Our fisheries are dying around here for many reasons, take summer chinook for example. Last 2 year s dead, the Chehalis has almost no "FISHERY " on their return with due to hatchery not having a river joining it. In the past both systems through the 90s and into 2000,s were awesome producers of salmon, rivers were full of red springs, guys were spread out and...... you could go for sockeye afterwards, now we struggle to find a fish in a pool and know we may only get one shot at sockeye on Fraser every 4 years. Comes down to we are a seeing multiple factors taking these fish which first nations has to be a prime reason for collapses
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Ps ocean recreational fisherman target lots of stocks but "MOST" are clipped aka Oregon fish etc. Thank God for American hatcheries otherwise it be a dead zone
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I second that. Even the most determined of poachers/unethical fishermen couldn't come close to doing the damage that a commercial vessel does operating completely within the law.
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there are multiple reasons for declining stocks.
I wish more people would Focus on ONE THING and ONE THING ONLY ->The COMMERCIAL FISHERY.
It is the most Significant Harvester there is by far. Literally 10-1 over sport fishery takes.
It is estimated to generate about 300 or so million a year.
They are currently "debating" a 3.5 to 4 BILLION dollar Bridge (Massey Tunnel).
Are you freakin kidding me?
SHUT DOWN the COMMERCIAL FISHERY! SHUT IT DOWN! PERIOD.
The math says to hit the MAJORITY .... not the MINORITY. The commercial fleets KILL EVERYTHING.
Shut them down.
Just my opinion.
salmon farms would be racking in the doe then!
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The 2013 run almost saw no commercial fishery for sockeye and this year the run is shaping up to be much smaller. Why? not because of overfishing but it looks like other factors probably ocean water temperatures. Even in Japan their stocks are in decline its pacific ocean trend http://russgeorge.net/2017/01/31/japanese-salmon-fisheries-in-historic-collapse/
"Across the Pacific ocean salmon pastures have failed and precious salmon have largely starved to death at sea."
I will agree that commercial fishing fleet does seem overdone when it comes to chinook. Lots of trollers out there intercept fraser river chinook but numbers on it seem also unclear altho if a chinook has white flesh odds are it came from the fraser river so it seems that they could get data on it.
I think I remember Nog arguing against this in favor of this saying that Fraser river stocks being caught in other parts of the ocean is not a big concern.
Also it seems unclear what proportion of BC salmon is caught in Alaska or by japanese fishing fleet way off shore.
But remember as long as FN and Commercial fleets are allowed to fish the Recs will be allowed too.
What you want will see Rec fishery closed down. so be careful what you ask for!
Idk if I made any sense i should not drink and forum at the same time!
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s
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Also in regards to the lack of Chinook on the river, need to look how many Chinook are being taken in the salt around here. Every week on FB and other social media, there are plenty of images of Chinook being caught in the local waters by locals, charters, lodges etc. Extrapolate that by how many don't post to social media and also consider the total take of Chinook in all coastal BC waters and it equates to thousands per week. I know that over on the sportfishing bc forum, Fishin_Magician recently ran some numbers such as this and he was criticized somewhat, but there is a lot of truth in those numbers as those thousands of Chinook caught weekly in the salt has an obvious impact on the Chinook not returning to the local rivers.
Keep blamin' the sporties. you're definitely on the right track here.... ::)
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Keep blamin' the sporties. you're definitely on the right track here.... ::)
It's not about blaming the sporties at all. Rather it is to demonstrate that there is a lot more to the lack of fish in the rivers that people need to take into account - along with a boatload of other variables.
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blame who you want. Non-tidal sport salmon fishing will be shut down before tidal. FN fisheries will be the last.
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That's "Great".....
Seriously, again.... outside of whatever peoples views on them. They still do not affect the DIRECT NUMBERS that the Commercial Fishery does. We talk, we fight amongst ourselves....
Many valid points.... but ADD them UP all together, and they still do not represent the IMPACT of the Commercial fishery. I'm a Sport Fisherman, i know we are dealing with declining stocks.
SO: Focus on what is TAKING the MATHEMATICAL most numbers = Commercial Fishery.
It really is THAT SIMPLE!
They represent less than 1% of the People. * Very small group controlling the entire Stocks ( and by "Control" - Their sole purpose is to HARVEST. That is not directly true of the Sport Industry. It is not 100% harvest based)
They Take over 90% of the allotted fish .... plus Untold amounts of "By Catch"
We represent more than 95% of the People (Sport fishermen & Industry)
We create MORE overall and Spread out economic benefit to the entire Province.
It's time to STOP the COMMERCIAL FISHERIES.
It seems this topic will forever be a merry-go-round of the same talking points. We're all arguing on who is taking the available fish. What concerns me is the actual number of available fish. As we're hearing these fish counts drop, the heat of the argument of 'who gets what' increases (and likely continue to do so). That said, I think we should be focusing our debates/energy on the ECOSYSTEM in order to ensure these fish counts have the opportunity to increase. I believe this is the root of this issue, and the biggest challenge facing this Ecosystem is the FISH FARM industry. I would love to see more online awareness and ideas turn into action against the Fish Farming industry. For me, I'm ticked at our reduced fisheries opportunities as we all are, so how do we on this forum and in our own communities make strides forward on a solution?
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I believe this is the root of this issue, and the biggest challenge facing this Ecosystem is the FISH FARM industry. I would love to see more online awareness and ideas turn into action against the Fish Farming industry. For me, I'm ticked at our reduced fisheries opportunities as we all are, so how do we on this forum and in our own communities make strides forward on a solution?
So, give us an example of how salmon farming has impacted Fraser River chinook returns.
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Dave this is your stock reply and I will give you mine, how have fish farms improved Fraser River Chinook returns.
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So, give us an example of how salmon farming has impacted Fraser River chinook returns.
lol please Dave you know he can't we have 160+ pages in the other forum topic about it.
But he is right that the discussion should be focused about the ecosystem and not who gets what of an ever shrinking pie. There has been hardly any targeted fisheries at chinook or sockeye on some of these cycles that keep just getting smaller and smaller.
Chum have been increasing because there available feed at ocean has been abundant in recent years so imagine that!
Ocean temperatures, ocean feeding grounds and the availability of food are imo what need to be studied more. Is there a way to enhance it?
so unless there is some shenanigans going on outside of canadian waters I think it's time to stop the finger pointing at targeted fisheries.
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Dave this is your stock reply and I will give you mine, how have fish farms improved Fraser River Chinook returns.
They allow restaurants to sell salmon to people who want to eat it without an impact on wild salmon
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They allow restaurants to sell salmon to people who want to eat it without an impact on wild salmon
Exactly so.
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The real problem is commercial over-fishing in the ocean to satisfy the demands of an ever-growing population who like to eat fish and sea-food.
I say thank goodness for fish farms, or else someone would soon be eating the LAST wild pacific salmon.
If you are a true sports fisherman, instead of whining about the declining fishery on the Vedder, expand your horizons and try fishing for other species and at other locations. For several years now, I have traded the summer Vedder for interior high elevation lakes, with outstanding results. Some of those lakes yield HUGE trout that taste delicious.
In addition, there are several other rivers in the LML that will yield Chinook salmon if you know when and where to look.
Vedder-schmedder. Practically impossible to fish anymore without running into stupid and ignorant people. Plus it is a nightmare to drive back home after a day of fishing it, especially on summer weekends. You can have it all to yourself until the fall and the crisp coho mornings.
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Milo, so u found nirvana with all your Fly BC cronies, well done... however your lack of success on vedder springs and subsequently becoming a trout fisherman does nothing to identify the declining stocks or poor returns seen last 2 years. I'd like to know where in.the lower mainland you said we can find springs right now?? Please insight me and others and if you say Chehalis you better understand I know that river like the back of my hand and its issues
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Cammer, I believe I HAVE identified the reason for declining stocks and poor returns in my post.
To answer your question, springs are quite abundant in the Squamish area now, especially in one of its tributaries.
But there is ZERO retention, so no crowds nor idiots lining the shores.
It also helps that COs are stationed almost permanently there checking for licenses, barbed hooks and, of course, illegal catches.
Sadly, all that will change in a week or so when hordes start driving out to fish for the ONE pink salmon they are allowed to retain. ::)
Hopefully, they will soon open the Vedder for pinks, too, and that may take the pressure off of the last peaceful flows in the vicinity of Vancouver.
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Why drive to Squamish to catch and release... isn't the Fraser open to catch and release fishing for steelhead and dolly . I'm sure you might catch the odd spring while targeting those species. Just make sure you buy your steelhead tag.
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Because the Fraser is not exactly fly-friendly, that's why. ::)
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Hopefully, they will soon open the Vedder for pinks, too, and that may take the pressure off of the last peaceful flows in the vicinity of Vancouver.
Oh sure, ship 'me all out to the Valley. Just like the Olympics!! ;)
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Because the Fraser is not exactly fly-friendly, that's why. ::)
Who said anything about fly fishing . ::)
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Who said anything about fly fishing . ::)
And who said anything about not fly-fishing. :P
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Milo I'm not going to call Squamish in.the lower mainland but where are all the " several other rivers" u reference as having springs? You mention eating trout and thats fine but it's also Allright for locals to want to kill a red meat spring and until recent years a " good fisherman " could guarantee seeing pools of fish in many location on 2 rivers, so to say go trout fish is not helping this situation especially now that lakes are warm and trout soft n muddy in most places. We have diminishing opportunities in the lower mainland and its getting worse, I've tried numerous times to Move the Chehalis so we could again have a " viable alternative to spread the crowds that happen on the vedder. It's a sad sad state
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Milo I'm not going to call Squamish in.the lower mainland but where are all the " several other rivers" u reference as having springs? You mention eating trout and thats fine but it's also Allright for locals to want to kill a red meat spring and until recent years a " good fisherman " could guarantee seeing pools of fish in many location on 2 rivers, so to say go trout fish is not helping this situation especially now that lakes are warm and trout soft n muddy in most places. We have diminishing opportunities in the lower mainland and its getting worse, I've tried numerous times to Move the Chehalis so we could again have a " viable alternative to spread the crowds that happen on the vedder. It's a sad sad state
I know Cammer, and I am sorry for the current state of affairs. Human greed has created this situation and it will only get worse rather than better.
I wish we could have our cake and eat it, too, but in this particular area that is not possible.
As a result, I have chosen not to cry over spilled beans.
When I want a red spring really badly, I buy one at the pier in Steveston or at Bruce's Market in Maple Ridge.
Or, alternatively, I book a guided salmon/halibut fishing trip out of Uke.
Peace.
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We have diminishing opportunities in the lower mainland and its getting worse, I've tried numerous times to Move the Chehalis so we could again have a " viable alternative to spread the crowds that happen on the vedder. It's a sad sad state
Are you saying you tried to move the Chehalis river itself back to the good-ol-days of the hatchery hole? Wouldn't that be nice.
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About 8 years ago, I arranged a meeting with BCFDF,,Chehalis Band and DFO and one other entity. I wanted desperately to get river back to hatchery so fishing would improve again to where it should be not like it is now(piss poor) . DFO said no way so I said we needed a trail at least to get brood stock to hatchery, I cut that with another BCFDF 'er and then the trail came into being. That didn't work out the way it was hoped and the trail washed out in many areas . Brood stocking is the major issue for steelhead but the Summer spring and fall coho are hatchery bred so they come back to the nearly dry channel. However the summer springs and steelhead come into the lower river and race right into the hatchery or Canyon leaving poor fishing opportunity
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My belief is a deflection rip rap wall like has been done countless times on the vedder , ( peach road, native land, Osborne, slab, slesse, etc etc) will push water back to hatchery so fish have to swim in main river to hatchery, the fish always tended to hold above and below the confluence and 100s of angler days in summer would be met with success with springs and summer runs from.late June to early August. We need this to happen to give vedder a break from all the pressure
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My belief is a deflection rip rap wall like has been done countless times on the vedder , ( peach road, native land, Osborne, slab, slesse, etc etc) will push water back to hatchery so fish have to swim in main river to hatchery, the fish always tended to hold above and below the confluence and 100s of angler days in summer would be met with success with springs and summer runs from.late June to early August. We need this to happen to give vedder a break from all the pressure
Sounds great to me - how do we crowd-fund it? I imagine it isn't as simple as finding the money to do it, there are other issues/stakeholders involved. Of course, I would imagine there are plenty of anglers who target coho on the Chehalis who appreciate the inaccessibility because it keeps pressure down.
The old hatchery pool on the Chehalis sometimes got worse than the old limit hole on the Chilliwack - coho schools so thick there was no way to avoid snagging them, and plenty of people not caring and casting into the black mass anyway. But you are right, in the summer, it was a great place to fish - both for the elusive summer steelhead and for red springs. Does anyone know if these are the same stock of red springs as the Vedder? I always assumed they were.
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bowron lake stock i do believe is source for chehalis and vedder. Getting this done could be achieved im sure with right stakeholders behind it, the chehalis band is a very approachable and if the right plan was backed with science and obvious previous successes and benefits, it may fly??as for any sportsfisherman who would object i have many examples to explain the overwhelming benefits . habitat for chum would greatly increase in old hatchery channel as well. The tourist dollars would again flow as prettys lodge would again attract the high spending european fisherman. BUT the NUMBER ONE REASON id like to see it back is BROOD CAPTURES WOULD AGAIN BE ENOUGH TO SUPPORT MANY ANGLER DAYS
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May be this is just a joke of the follies and priorities of our government. They have 10 million to give away to a terrorist and say sorry but in contrast our funding for fisheries keep dropping year after year while the quality and opportunity of fishing has been dropping while the license fees never drop a cent, and no sorry forthcoming from these head honchos. LOL. Chehalis has been the 2nd most productive system in the LML before and now fish can't get back to the hatchery. This should be a high priority for fishery enhancement. Yet they say no to enhance one of their own facilities.
Those of us who have fished the Chehalis years before remember the glory days of the river bending towards the hatchery there with tons of fish parking along those runs at the bend. It will definitely take the pressure off other systems (Vedder, Stave, etc) if Cammer's effort to move the river back to the hatchery is successful and fishing pick up there. DFO saying no to the suggestion is pathetic but what else is new to this fishermen-unfriendly organization. They serve their masters of other user groups but never the sporties.
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Last year in the Albion test nests by July 27, 234 springs
This year 48.
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I could be wrong, but personally I wouldn't directly compare date to date each year. Humans use calendars which vary a bit from the actual seasons, look at leap years for example. We had a bit of a late winter, and a late spring, so maybe the salmon work more with the actual seasons/weather/migration path/etc than our Gregorian calendars, and simply haven't decided to run yet :P. Or maybe they traveled up the other side of the river than the test net drifted, or maybe they went by when the net wasn't out, etc.. there are a lot of variables! Simply comparing the date and numbers may not do justice :).
Black berry crop looks like its gonna be crap this year that means salmons gonna be crap. Thats the way i judge it lol
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EXTREMELY VALID POINT!
May i add that this also applies on a scale of at least a couple generations of fish. ie: 2-3 4 year cycles. Some years... only the Strongest fish survive -> which is actually in the long run a good thing. The "Best" of the wild stock lives on and then in good years produces a generation of significantly healthy runs.
The main PROBLEM is that when you have a COMMERCIAL FISHERY absolutely decimating the numbers year after year after year..... there really is no mathematical hope. Climate, dams.... pollution, Seals all play a role.... however, their combined numbers mean little compared to the impact of Commercial Fisheries.
CLOSE the COMMERCIAL FISHEIRES. (Jimmy Pattison's Monopoly)
Put back all FRESH WATER Control back into the PROVINCIAL & MUNICIPAL hands.
I think its mostly to do with ocean survival rates. Salmon are starving to death at sea as there is no food and higher water temperatures are bring in more predictors. This run of steel head as not seen any commercial or fishing on it in years and its about to see its lowest return ever.
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2017/jul/17/steelhead-numbers-even-lower-predicted-columbia-snake-rivers/ (http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2017/jul/17/steelhead-numbers-even-lower-predicted-columbia-snake-rivers/)
"Ron Roler said the low steelhead numbers mimic other data from this year’s salmon and steelhead runs. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist at Olympia said spring chinook numbers were down, the Columbia River sockeye count is well below forecast and ocean fishing indicates a poor run of coho can be expected"
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Vedder red spring return this year is basically over in my experienced opinion. I was out Monday and yesterday, didn't see a splash of a single sockeye let alone a red spring in numerous traditional " hot spots", whatever the reasons people,, thats 2 Dearth years and thats enough for me to say something major is wrong
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I think its mostly to do with ocean survival rates. Salmon are starving to death at sea as there is no food and higher water temperatures are bring in more predictors. This run of steel head as not seen any commercial or fishing on it in years and its about to see its lowest return ever.
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2017/jul/17/steelhead-numbers-even-lower-predicted-columbia-snake-rivers/ (http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2017/jul/17/steelhead-numbers-even-lower-predicted-columbia-snake-rivers/)
"Ron Roler said the low steelhead numbers mimic other data from this year’s salmon and steelhead runs. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist at Olympia said spring chinook numbers were down, the Columbia River sockeye count is well below forecast and ocean fishing indicates a poor run of coho can be expected"
The Snake River and Columbia River fish have some uniquely bad conditions to deal with - with so many dams to traverse and high water temps for the out-migrating fish. Returns were expected to be poor because they tracked the poor outgoing survival.
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Vedder red spring return this year is basically over in my experienced opinion. I was out Monday and yesterday, didn't see a splash of a single sockeye let alone a red spring in numerous traditional " hot spots", whatever the reasons people,, thats 2 Dearth years and thats enough for me to say something major is wrong
Though last year wasn't spectacular by any stretch (not like 2015 anyways), there were plenty more springs in the lower sections of the river compared to this year. There were even days when 8 reds were taken. I've been out almost half the month (15 trips approx.) with most of these trips starting around 4:30 am, and I haven't even touched a sockeye. Haven't seen a single spring roll either. The only fish I've seen the entire season up to this point has been one runt sockeye roll close to shore. Considering the red spring run's small to begin with, if the return numbers aren't "up to par", then we should all expect slow fishing. However, it's nice just to get out and enjoy the summer weather, and catching a fish should really just be a bonus - though I certainly wouldn't mind bbqing a red or two every now and then ;)
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Nicholas , upriver last year was awful whereas this year my first 2 outtings I killed 3 fish , then last 2 were skunks. You were out 15xs this year and didn't see a fish down river?? that totally sucks, mid river had fish almost everyday "I heard" when they were in. 2015 was spectacular alright but ive had 25 years experience fishing this run and yes we should expect harvestable numbers, plenty years have been stuffed with springs like 2015 and one day about 12 years ago I hooked 20 fish in one day
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The Snake River and Columbia River fish have some uniquely bad conditions to deal with - with so many dams to traverse and high water temps for the out-migrating fish. Returns were expected to be poor because they tracked the poor outgoing survival.
I'm confused because it clearly states well below forecasted returns. If they expected it to be poor why would they not include that in their forecast?
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I fish in Oregon and the boys down there are experiencing poor summer red returns as well as summer run steelhead in lots of rivers
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If all the rivers from BC to the south in the States are in trouble and Alaska is doing well, perhaps it is the 'blob' effect during the brood year that somebody said massive blob of warm water came up north to bring along millions of tunas and mackerel to clean house on our juvenile fish. Alaska is spared as the warm water predators probably didn't make it up that north. The bolb was discover in 2013 and continued to 2016. So this is the 4th year afterwards and that seems to match with the 4 year life cycle of salmon. Let's hope this theory doesn't hold up and the fish are just late.
These are some write-ups on this problem:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2016/09/warm-water-pacific-coast-algae-nino/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blob_(Pacific_Ocean)
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The Americans have been predicting this for a while now and it had nothing to do with outgoing smolt migrations.
https://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/research/divisions/fe/estuarine/oeip/b-latest-updates.cfm