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[Spawn Sack]

So I've been trying to get good at single hand casting in moving (river) water for a couple years now. Admittedly if I practised/fished more I'd be a lot better than I am. 99% of the time I gear fish on rivers. On lakes I mainly fly fish and, although my back/false casting is far from perfect, I can lob my indicator and leader + fly out there with no real issues.

My problems arise on the river. When I first stared out I never heard of spey casts or roll casts. I would let my fly swing down to the shore, then strip in most of the line, then go through 7-10 false casts to get the line back out. What a waste of time!

Then 2 years ago I took a group (4 hrs) single hand spey class on the Vedder. We learned the snap-t for a direction change to the right, and the double spey for a direction change to the left (plus each cast off non-dominant shoulder for an upstream wind). It was a lot to soak up in 4 hrs but it was fun and informative.

Since that time, when I do get out with my river fly rod (9 foot 8wt) like I did today, I still have the same issues. Mainly getting a proper anchor and d-loop before the roll cast, and from there a decent roll cast. Sometimes my roll cast sails out nicely, and sometimes it goes no-where. I understand the concepts of d-loop, point-p, and anchor. I bought the book "Single Hand Spey Casting" hoping to sort out my issues with the spey casts. I even brought the book with me to the river today, spent hours trying to sort out my casting issues, but still not much luck. Now I'm sure I could pay an instructor $60+ an hour to help me out, but I'm not really interested in that.

I finally said f**k trying to master the snap-t, double spey, along with a few other casts I tried from the book (cicrle-c, etc). I made up my own system that was working fairly well. Curious if anyone has feedback and can offer perhaps a better idea.

So, I let my fly swing down so it's in the dangle-ish (decent amount of line already stripped in), then I roll cast once to bring the fly and sink tip up. Then I'll do a back cast, then anouther 2-3 back casts to get the line shooting in the right direction, once I'm casting across the river again, I let-er go!

The benifets are mainly that it actually WORKS for me and I don't spend a lot of time swearing with my spey casts not working. The downsides are that I need a lot of space upriver as I'm doing kind of a "lasso" cast to get my line re-directed in the air. There is no way I could fish close to someone up river from me or else they would likely get my line wrapped around their head Also, if I didn't have space for a back cast I'd be screwed as I suck at the spey casts However most of the places I fish have lots of backcast room.

I would like to learn the spey casts properly with a single hand rod but just find it too difficult and I'm not interested in paying for another lesson. From what I have heard it's a fair bit easier to spey cast with a spey (2 handed) rod. I'm currently saving up my $ for a 2 handed set up, but in the mean time I'd still like to single hand fish for coho and pinks, etc this fall.

I'm curious what casts other people use in the river with a single handed rod.

[ByteMe]

sounds like it's the fly line.....not you.It's very difficult to spey cast OH WF regular fly line,the taper is totally different from spey taper lines.Get a SH spey line from SA or Wulff Ambush line,and you will see an immediate change,they both work great with the snap T ,double spey casts,which you already know

[Spawn Sack]

Huh...I never really thought it could be the line. I appreciate the advice, ByteMe, but to be honest I don't really want to buy another line as I would need to buy another spool ($75 or so) plus the cost of the line. I suppouse I could remove the existing line from the backing and add a new line to the existing spool.

What I don't really get is...the line on my reel now is aparently good for river fishing for the summer Vedder where I use the rod mainly. The staff, who are pretty much all exclusive fly fishermen, all agreed that yes this is a good line for the type of water you tell us you're fishing.

Sooo...if fishermen don't use spey casts to change direction with this type of line, then how are they changing direction from down strean to accross stream? I more or less just figured out my method on my own after growing tierd of the single/double speys working half the time. The down stream roll cast followed by a few mid-air change of direction back casts works for me...but I figure there's gotta be a better way!

It seems like most of the guys I see fishing around here are either gear fishing or 2-handed spey fishing. I haven't had an opportunity to watch a good single-hander with a sink tip on and see some alternatives to the spey casts.

Another thing I remember is when I took the single hand spey class a couple years ago we all used floating lines with some wool on the end of our leader. A lot easier when everything is up on the surface!! Add a sink tip and/or weighted flys and it seems like unless my timing is PERFECT, the cast fails. After a few hours and a bit of shoulder fatiuge it seems I can't pull of a decent spey cast with the single hand rod to save my life. Looking forward to one day getting a lesson with a 2-handed spey rod and hopefully getting into that instead. Love my 4wt single hand rod on still waters, cursing the 8wt on the river

[FlyFishin Magician]

I was going to ask the same question.  What kind of line do you have on your reel?  Is it a Rio versitip system?  The cool thing is that all rods, SH or DH, can be used to spey cast.  However, you must have the correct line!  If you do have a WF line, then I imagine it will be that much more difficult to master the spey cast.

Have you taken a lesson on how to cast your SH rod (overhead casting)?  7 - 10 false casts is way too many - I usually can get a 70 -90 foot cast with 2 - 3 false casts.  What kind of SH rod do you have?  Is it a fast action or slow action?

When I complete my swing down river, I strip in line, then just lift the rod tip up to flip the line behind me (or up river).  I can then do a short roll cast forward, then begin my first false cast.  By the second or third false cast, I'm usually set to shoot out the line.  One thing that adds significant distance to you cast is the ability to "double haul".  If you can learn how to do that properly, then you will reduce the number of false casts, and increase casting distance.

Good luck!

[dennyman]

I would get another fly line, and purchase another reel spool for your fly reel. The line I would put on the spool I would be spey casting with,  would be an ambush type line. The shorter head length approximates what DH spey casters use while skagit casting and you should be able to cast sink tips and weighted flies while doing SH spey casts.
Note: for the 8 wt. rod the Ambush head length is only 20 ft. versus the 37 ft. you are presently using. That will make a world of difference in SH spey casts.

[Spawn Sack]

I was going to ask the same question.  What kind of line do you have on your reel?  Is it a Rio versitip system?  The cool thing is that all rods, SH or DH, can be used to spey cast.  However, you must have the correct line!  If you do have a WF line, then I imagine it will be that much more difficult to master the spey cast.

Have you taken a lesson on how to cast your SH rod (overhead casting)?  7 - 10 false casts is way too many - I usually can get a 70 -90 foot cast with 2 - 3 false casts.  What kind of SH rod do you have?  Is it a fast action or slow action?

When I complete my swing down river, I strip in line, then just lift the rod tip up to flip the line behind me (or up river).  I can then do a short roll cast forward, then begin my first false cast.  By the second or third false cast, I'm usually set to shoot out the line.  One thing that adds significant distance to you cast is the ability to "double haul".  If you can learn how to do that properly, then you will reduce the number of false casts, and increase casting distance.

Good luck!

I am 99% sure the line on the reel is this one: http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/saltwater/coldwater/outbound/ I believe it is the "6-21724 WF8F/I Clear/Yellow 330 37.5ft 11.4m Flt/1.5 ips 100ft 30.5m 79.95" one. When I bought the line I didn't mention that I would be trying to S/H spey cast it, just the type of water I'd be fishing and the species I'd be going after.

My only real reason for trying to learn the S/H spey casts is to change the direction of my line after swinging it through a run. I should clairify that at first, before I took a lesson, I would strip in most of the line, then proceed to do 7-10 false casts to get my line back out. However, after my lesson where we worked on overhead casting and S/H spey casts I can roll cast half decent and back cast alright. Still gotta learn to double-haul which would help a lot both on the river and lakes.

My rod is a TFO 9ft 8wt. I'm not at home right now so I can't check the action and forget what it is. FFM, you are also right the the WF line is a pain to S/H spey cast! Wasn't too bad in the lesson when we all had our floating lines on and no sink tip. With my WF/8/I it is such a pain...I've even video taped myself and I swear everything looks pretty good...however if the timing is off a hair the cast will fail, and I find it really hard to get the tip of the line to land where it should be to set up the next part of the cast. A little bit too much or not enough energy and it will be off a mile.

Anyway, enough ranting FFM, I like how you described your casting, that's pretty much what I figured out works for me. All this S/H spey casting is giving me a nose bleed and seems quite unecessary when there are no obstructions behind. I find with this line I need to strip in, then roll cast to get it up on the surface. Next time I'm out I'll try to next give it a flick upstream, then roll cast and/or backcast instead of starting my backcasting from downstream and doing a mid-air cowboy lasso cast (!) I'm sure only a matter of time before I wrap the line around my head (or the person upstream of me) trying to pull this off, lol!

[Spawn Sack]

I would get another fly line, and purchase another reel spool for your fly reel. The line I would put on the spool I would be spey casting with,  would be an ambush type line. The shorter head length approximates what DH spey casters use while skagit casting and you should be able to cast sink tips and weighted flies while doing SH spey casts.

I probably should but...I'm thinking of just saving up my beans for a true spey rod + reel etc. I've wanted to get into it for years just never had the time or $ to research what I want/need and make the leap. Aside from the fact that it looks like a blast, I think it would be a lot easier on my right shoulder injury from years back which tends to act up from time to time, and gets aggrevated by a day spend with the S/H 8wt and sinking line + weighted flys. From what I have heard the 2 handed rod spreads the work load out a lot more and is much less tiring. My dream is to hook and land a monster steelhead on an intruder I tied myself I've hooked a fair amount on gear and roe etc, but I think it's time to try something new. Everytime I see someone 2/H spey fishing I watch in awe and jealousy...

Anyway guys thanks for the tips! Awesome bunch as always. Had wayyyy too much coffee here at work and am getting far off topic

[ByteMe]

Spawn Sack...........it's the line.A Rio Outbound you are using is meant for OH casting,as dennyman said and I mentioned,try the Wulff Ambush,they are heavy,short heads with running line designed for single hand spey casting,a simple snap T and you will launch it across the river,that is the hottest line across the border for SH rods and switch rods right now.Check out the Wulff website for more info and google up some vids on the Ambush line

[Spawn Sack]

I can't believe all this time I was using line poorly suited for SH spey casting!! 2 years ago when I bought the line I never even THOUGHT to mention to the staff that I would be spey casting with the line. I seriously spent 2 full days on the river this week working river left and right trying to sort out my single and double spey casts, snap-t, etc, video taping myself and looking for faults in slow-mo even Not to mention all the other frustrating days I've spent on the river since I bought the line. Oh well, not much I can do abouy it now except laugh about it

I'll price out a second spool and the proper line. Im guessimg the line + backing + spool + a few tips will set me back a good $200 or so.  As Flyfishin Magician pointed out a change of directuon cast can be accomplished with an upstream flip and a roll cast and/or back xaat. I may just make due with this line and not spey cast with it and put the $ towards a 2handed spey s
Any reason why a 2 handed setup would be bad for fall Vedder fishing? Im guessing the SH rod is more stealthy and better for short casts.

[Every Day]

Any reason why a 2 handed setup would be bad for fall Vedder fishing? Im guessing the SH rod is more stealthy and better for short casts.

The most common method for coho is to cast and do a short strip in retrieve. This can be difficult with 2 handed rods as they are more meant for swinging. It is doable, just not ideal.

Getting back to over hand casting... Definitely should not be doing any more than 3 false casts at most. Many times I will do one back cast and shoot 60+ feet of line on the next forward stroke (with double haul casting). The more times you whip it back and forth in the air, the more momentum you lose. 3 or less false casts will keep your rod heavily loaded and allow for a really good shoot. Most of your distance should be on the shoot regardless of what you are doing rather than working your line out in the air.

Your line should be more than perfect for roll casting as well. Most of the island flows I fish with my 6 wt have 0 back cast room and all I do is roll cast or "jump cast." If you get your timing down it should be no problem to hit 50-60 feet even with heavish flies. I like to have it so that just the very end of my fly line is touching the water for a load just as I'm shooting forward. Make sure you sweep back, lift up and pause for a second to load the rod, I generally shoot a lot of line on roll casts much like I would casting overhead, you shouldn't need multiple casts to get good distance. I'll see if any of my coho fishing videos show some roll casting.

Good luck, the more you practice the better you get!
Dan

[nickredway]

The outbound is probably not the problem, they are a shooting head, have a similar taper to a scandi line and spey cast very well on a single hander or switch. The fact that his line is a slow sink might be the problem and poor technique, it really shouldn't be that hard to reposition your line from the dangle to begin casting across stream again, you don't need to be a single hand spey ninja. Your money would be better spent getting a lesson than buying a different line imho. If I am up your way I would be happy to give you a few pointers.

[Spawn Sack]

Hmmm...interesting you think the line should be fine. I'm a novice river flyfisher so I dont really know, however until hearing some opinions in this thread it never even occured to me that the line MAY be the issue. I would love to try out this Ambush line, but I dont think im going to, at least right now, buy new spool and the line. I can catch fish with the current line I just need to keep in mind that I can not spey cast it worth a damn. Perhaps down the road Ill buy an extra spool and Ambush line.

As far as another lesson goes I think ill hold off for now. Ive already had 2. One intro lesson on grass where the focus was mainly on backcasting and shooting line, and one on the water for single hand spey.

One thing I do notice is in the SH spey lesson I had a WF floating line and I coild do the casys fairly well. Then I lost that line on a hot spring I couldnt turn. It took me into my backing and the backing broke!! I dont know of it had an abrasion/weak point or what. Anyway so I replaced it with the Rio WF/8/I line. I am interested yo see whay the staff have to say where i bought it. Like I said i never told them that I was planning to spey cast with it. I would like to hand my rod and to a good SH spey caster and see if they can SH well with it. If yes then clearly it's doable and more me than the line. If they struggled, like me, per then  perhaps ab ambush style line is what i should have bought in the first place.

[nickredway]

Judging by WF/8/I you state above you have a the full intermediate outbound line. This means that the head and the running line all sink, as such its not going to be as easy to spey cast on a single hand rod as a floating outbound which spey casts very nicely, especially as a you are a beginner. The line you have is  a good choice for stripping for Coho and Pinks etc so if that is what you are going to be doing mostly I'd stick with it and work on your o/h casting. Good luck

[Spawn Sack]

The line I have it this one: http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/saltwater/coldwater/outbound/ It's the "WF8F/I Clear/Yellow 330 37.5ft 11.4m Flt/1.5 ips 100ft 30.5m 79.95

Something occured to me last night. My line goes clear and thick until it tapers and blends into yellow. I'm thinking the clear portion of the line is the shooting head and is not really meant to be running through the eyelets during roll casts and it has a lot of friction. No? I just remember that to get the tip of my fly line to land in the right spot to create a good anchor for the roll cast and (sometimes) subsequent backcast, I would have to strip in about to the point whereI was about 1 foot short of my yellow (shooting) line. In other words, all the yellow line is in loops in my left hand, and when I go to roll cast then back cast I have about 10 feet (9 foot rod + one extra foot) of the clear line past that is not being casted.

Anyway, my speculation is that the clear line/shooting head is not sliding through the rod guides very well + the weight of the "unused" head is not helping the cast out. My thought is that if, say, the head were 10 feet shorter like the ambush line, then all of the head would be past the rod tip when I went to roll cast + backcast. Then, when I went to release the stripped in line it would be shooting line heading through the rod guides, not 1/3 of my shooting head like with my current line.

I think that makes sense. Talking out my a** really Am I onto something?

[Spawn Sack]

What kind of SH rod do you have?  Is it a fast action or slow action?

Just checked my rod. It actually doesn't specify the action It's a TFO 8wt 9ft rod. It is entry level but wasn't super cheap. $150 rings a bell.