Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fly Fishing Cafe => Topic started by: Trout_Bum on January 19, 2013, 10:57:12 AM
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Hi everyone,
I am a trout flyfisher, with a setup for fishing lakes (6 wt) and have a drift setup for fishing salmon/ steelhead.
I would like to get a new setup for flyfishing for salmon/ steelhead. I could go for an 8 or nine wt single hand, but am somewhat interested in looking at spey casting. Can anyone give advice on which direction to go? Maybe a switch rod so I can fish one or two hands.....
Trout Bum
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Personally i use a 4wt switch for salmon but your 6 wt single will be fine for coho and pinks. for steelhead definitely a Spey setup in the 7 wt will be good for all rivers around here.
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What water will you be fishing? How big will that water be? What is your target species for the most part?
If you primarily target coho/pinks, you are probably better off with a single-hander. I'd look for a 7 or 8 weight.
This is because most coho and pink are targeted using a stripped in fly in slower water.
If you primarily target steelhead, I'd go with the spey. Swinging is awesome. You're gonna want a 7-9 weight.
This is because you will likely be doing most of your steelhead fishing swinging flies and spey rods are MUCH more effective at covering water this way.
If you can only have one rod, I'd pick up a 7wt or 8wt single-hander. This will cover you for all situations.
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Personally i use a 4wt switch for salmon but your 6 wt single will be fine for coho and pinks. for steelhead definitely a Spey setup in the 7 wt will be good for all rivers around here.
This rod (4wt) is WAY too light for salmon fishing. A 6wt would be my minimum choice and 7+ is better.
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4 wt swtich for coho is more then plenty..why would it be too light? its Like a 7 wt single hander and do u find that too light . Its how you play the fish as well. Coho are not the hottest fish around infact quite lame in rivers unless u get the odd big one in bigger water where they can run.
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you are very wrong thinking a 4wt switch is like a 7wt single hander. that thinking may work for fly lines because the longer rod takes a higher grain weight to load it properly but that in no way means the rod itself is a heavier action ::)
longer rods actually make fish feel larger and you dont have as much torque on the fish as you do with shorter rods. This equates to longer landing times in most situations and for most peoples skill levels. I have seen pics of 15lb steelhead landed on 000wt rods, is it cool ? f***ing rights. is it ethical ? HELL NO !!
I would use my 5/6wt switch for coho but only in an area where i know there isnt chum or springs around which is virtually impossible in our LML streams and rivers. I much rather use a 7 or 8 wt and be able to land the fish faster and have them swimming off with alot of their energy intact.
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Well, as of today I use a 2 weight for Steelhead apparently.
That said, I fish Chum and Coho on 5 weights. Ive never played a fish over the 5 minute mark (I would say 90% are 3 or less) but having a bit more backbone does help you crank it in. If I were fishing bigger flies, on larger rivers with heavy sink tips, Id want a 7 or 8 weight. But I enjoy the slower water Coho like, where I control the fly and not the current. Just my opinion, and a 5 weight is more than enough backbone for fish under 14 pounds.
As far as spey goes, dont go switch. Everyone I speak with who has switch rods says not to waste the money. They dont do spey or single hand exceptionally well. Go one or the other. And spey is an entire new game, vs single handers. By all means, go for it, but I like my single handers a lot (for now.)
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If you want to stay with the single handed rods I would go with either an 8, or even a 9/10 weight rod with a fighting butt, if you are going to hook the odd chum or chinook. Even though a lighter weight rod could be used, you have to ask yourself if you would use your six weight rod for salmon fishing. It could be done, but eventually you are going to hit a hot fish, and it is going to be snap, crackle, pop for the light weight rod.
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How are you so sure I am wrong and you are so absolute? First off you don't even know what rod I have how long it is..what action it is etc. Rod ratings are not all the same. A 4 wt in one maker can be more like a 5 or even a 6. Or how aggressively I fight a fish. If i hook a boot chum or a spring i just break em off instead o wasting time and others time fishing around me. Recommending using a 7/8 for coho is ridiculous. U wouldn't even feel a coho on that rod. And comparing using 000 for 15 pound steelhead and. 4 wt switch for coho is actually doesn't even compute.
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Trout Bum - go to a good fly shop like Michael and Young and talk about what kind of fishing you'd most likely be doing with your new rod. For salmon a single handed rod is probably a better choice as so much of that involves an active retrieve as opposed to a wet fly swing as is done for steelhead. . Locally Steelhead aren't so easy to come by fly fishing other than in the spring or on what local rivers have a few summer runs. For 2 handed rods most people in the know think a spey setup is the sensible choice for a 1st rod.
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4 wt swtich for coho is more then plenty..why would it be too light? its Like a 7 wt single hander and do u find that too light . Its how you play the fish as well. Coho are not the hottest fish around infact quite lame in rivers unless u get the odd big one in bigger water where they can run.
I respectfully disagree that a 4wt switch is "more then (sic) plenty", however upon re-reading my original post I'd like to amend it as follows:
In my opinion [t]his rod (4wt) is WAY too light for salmon fishing. A 6wt would be my minimum choice and 7+ is better.
Switch rods CAN be beefier than their single-hand cousins, but that is not always true and when someone who is apparently newer to flyfishing is asking about what type of rod they should use for a given application I would rather err on the side of caution than let them think any ol' 4wt rod is ok to use for salmon.
I still believe that anything less than a 6wt isn't really a great choice for salmon or steelhead fishing.
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you also have no idea what rod(s) im using. I have caught 2lb bull trout while swinging for steel and felt them on the end of the rod. I have played salmon from small coho (6lb range) to big springs i couldnt even turn, they all felt great and yes some of the larger fish even felt like to much for my 7/8wt
Fishing isnt only about your own personal enjoyment, you also have to consider the fish and whether it will swim away after. I could fish way lighter tackle so that its more fun for me however it would greatly dissapoint me to watch any of my fish surface belly up after releasing them. I could take coho on my 5/6 switch no problem however i rather use my 7wt single hander for coho because its easier to present the fly better and my 7wt is a decently stiff 10footer so i can power in chum surprisingly better than i thought the rod would be able to.
Not sure why this thread is becoming a debate about using tackle thats lighter than necassary.
for the record here is my line-up for salmon/steelhead fly rods
Beulah 12' 7" 7/8wt spey
Beulah 10' 6" 5/6 switch
Redington Pursuit 10' 7wt single
lets see yours ;)
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I fish Chum and Coho on 5 weights.
5 weight is more than enough backbone for fish under 14 pounds.
hmmm, interesting. Are the fish you speak of still alive when you hook them ???
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hmmm, interesting. Are the fish you speak of still alive when you hook them ???
The chum are usually past their prime to begin with. The coho are very much active and ready to get back to the depths when I let them go though. When you know how to play a fish, and not just hold your rod straight up in the air, it doesnt take very much time, nor yanking to get them in.
You can see in the latest issue of BC outdoors. There is a picture of myself holding up a very coloured Chum (that had 2 sea louse on her back!) and she was about a 4 minute fight, and required about 20 seconds of rest before she took off from my feet.
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I use a 6 wt for everything. I even use 6 wt's to beach fish for chinook.
It's all in how you fight the fish and different pressures you use. Very rarely does any fight I have with a fish last over 3-4 mins.
I do use 8 wt's for steelhead, but that is mostly due to casting larger flies.
On smaller flows with summer runs where I am just tossing nymphs, back to the 6 wt.
I don't think I've ever had a fish even sit in my hands after unhooking them... I have a hard enough time getting them to sit still for a quick pic with my hand wrapped firmly around the tail. If you want to get on any person's case for over fighting a fish, talk to the centre pin guys on here that somehow get fish to lie beside their rods without being touched for a pic. The day I can get one to do that is the day I know I'm over playing them and is the day I will beef up my gear.
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If you want to get on any person's case for over fighting a fish, talk to the centre pin guys on here that somehow get fish to lie beside their rods without being touched for a pic.
not sure if you meant me, but I was referring to how long the fish had been in the river and not their condition after being fought. If you guys are able to land fish in an ethical way i don't care what rod you use. I was just thinking about fresh 13lb chum or even a 12lb northern, good luck battling one of those with a 5wt.
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not sure if you meant me, but I was referring to how long the fish had been in the river and not their condition after being fought. If you guys are able to land fish in an ethical way i don't care what rod you use. I was just thinking about fresh 13lb chum or even a 12lb northern, good luck battling one of those with a 5wt.
I realized that after I posted. To which, refer to the first sentence, and then the first 6 words of the next sentence in my previous post ;D
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longer rods actually make fish feel larger and you dont have as much torque on the fish as you do with shorter rods. This equates to longer landing times in most situations and for most peoples skill levels.
Your responses to such topics are normally very informed but I can't see how torque is involved. The idea that the longer 'lever' of a 2 handed rod amplifies the apparent force a fish pulls back with has been around for a while but I think is wrong headed. A fishing rod of any sort is a very imperfect lever. A fly rod is perhaps the most imperfect and least like a lever.Two handed rods in my experience, all things being relatively equal are capable of exerting more force on a fish precisely because we naturally use 2 hands when fighting a fish - which is not so easy to do with a singled handed rod. The longer butt section also applies more force or so I find. For example fighting a large salmon like a chum with a #9 single handed vs a #9 spey rod - well there's no comparison the longer two handed rod is far more powerful.
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if thats the case then why do fish feel larger on longer rods ??
The whole thing i said about longer rods that you think is misinformed were actually shared by a well known guide/casting instructor and im sure you wouldnt question his knowledge of how the long rods work
torque may have been a wrong word choice, leverage may have been better
Who have you ever seen holding the bottom grip while fighting a fish on the spey ??
that would be very difficult because that hand would be from reel handle to bottom grip way to much, its alot more natural to go from reel handle to above your fish fighting hand which would put your hand on the top of the upper grip or even on the rod blank itself.
comparing a 9wt single hander to a 9wt spey is like apples to oranges. they are not designed in the same regards at all, if you lined up each with dry lines the single hander would take a 9wt to match appropriately, the spey however would take a 12wt line in order to achieve a rod load. Im not sure exactly how they figure out the weights for the rods to call them 6's or 9's or whatever.
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I don't find fish feel larger on a long rod. I use both hands with a 2 handed rod and also use the long butt far more effectively to brace the rod against my body than can be done with the little butt - if there is one at all - on a single handed rod. I think I explained the issue I have with the lever analogy. But I will add few things; will a large fish feel smaller as a rod gets shorter to say 6 inches? FWIW what's on the end of a lever usually doesn't pull back. How would you actually design a experimental test to prove a fish feels smaller at the end of a longer rod?
Best I recall I first read this in Mike Maxwell's book and he was known to have some pretty wacko ideas - and it's been parroted mindless by many ever since. But I think about most of what I read. Some I simply don't believe.
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How are you so sure I am wrong and you are so absolute? First off you don't even know what rod I have how long it is..what action it is etc. Rod ratings are not all the same. A 4 wt in one maker can be more like a 5 or even a 6. Or how aggressively I fight a fish. If i hook a boot chum or a spring i just break em off instead o wasting time and others time fishing around me. Recommending using a 7/8 for coho is ridiculous. U wouldn't even feel a coho on that rod. And comparing using 000 for 15 pound steelhead and. 4 wt switch for coho is actually doesn't even compute.
Heads up, the 8-14" coho you no doubt think are full size coho are in fact jacks. Tex is on the money that adult coho are perfectly matched to a 7/8 rod. Have a nice day.
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LOL... you took the words right out of my mouth, Matt. If (s)he thinks a 7/8 wt is too heavy for coho and you won't even feel a coho on it, then I feel bad for the type of coho (s)he is catching.
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Yeah keep on recommending 7/8 switch for coho fishing ::)
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Yeah keep on recommending 7/8 switch for coho fishing ::)
Where did I do that?
What water will you be fishing? How big will that water be? What is your target species for the most part?
If you primarily target coho/pinks, you are probably better off with a single-hander. I'd look for a 7 or 8 weight.
Or did you mean where I wrote this:
If you can only have one rod, I'd pick up a 7wt or 8wt single-hander. This will cover you for all situations.
You're welcome to recommend whatever you want, and I'm well within my rights to disagree with you and make my own recommendation.
Bottom line is, I think fishing for coho with a 4wt anything is at best bringing a knife to a gun fight, and at best somewhat irresponsible. If you're targeting coho, you should be fishing with a 6wt or better, regardless of whether it's a single, switch, or double-hander.
Cheers!
Tex
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Bottom line is, I think fishing for coho with a 4wt anything is at best bringing a knife to a gun fight, and at best somewhat irresponsible. If you're targeting coho, you should be fishing with a 6wt or better, regardless of whether it's a single, switch, or double-hander.
AMEN !!
I have caught many coho that i even had trouble controlling with an 8wt. with a 4wt it would have been absolutely rediculous ::)
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Bottom line is, I think fishing for coho with a 4wt anything is at best bringing a knife to a gun fight, and at best somewhat irresponsible. If you're targeting coho, you should be fishing with a 6wt or better, regardless of whether it's a single, switch, or double-hander.
AMEN !!
I have caught many coho that i even had trouble controlling with an 8wt. with a 4wt it would have been absolutely rediculous ::)
Agreed!
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If I could only have one rod for salmon and steelhead (yeah right) it would be an 8wt sngle 9 footer. Run a versa tip on one spool and tt ambush on another.
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I only use my 4wt echo switch for coho on the vedder and have had no problems with fish up to the 10lb range... even hooked a few springs and was able to bring them in fairly easy. I have landed summers and winters (as by catch) on this rod as well and have no issues with landing fish. For steelhead though I would go with a heavier spey for the sole reason of casting big flies and sink tips.
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where are you guys fishing for these coho that they are all so small or not overly spunky ?
what do you do when you hook coho over 9-10lbs ?
my smallest coho (3-3 1/2lbs) on the fly was in a wild fish only area and it still put a good bend in my 8wt. I had a few others that put that rod to the test :o
still boggles my mind why people would use gear thats to appropriately light for their target species. Its not responsible, ethical or sporting ::)
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Obviously u do not understand a 4 wt switch is not a 4 wt single hander.
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I'm just getting into the world of two-handed casting after about 15 years of using a single hander. One thing I can recommend is this - for salmon fishing in the LML, I wouldn't use anything less than a 7 weight single hander. Yes, one could get away with a 5/6 weight for small salmon (e.g. pinks). Sure, you can just "break off" if you hook a big fish. But after I've put in the effort to tie a nice fly, I don't like breaking flies off. My 5 weights are used for the interior lakes for trout.
If you're not sure about what weight to use, check with the rod manufacturer's recommendations. ;)
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obviously your not paying attention ::)
I am fully aware a 4wt switch is not the same as a 4wt single however it IS NOT the equivalent of a 7wt single as you eluded to earlier !
I think the reason people may think this way is because of how fly lines work in regards to using single handed lines for two handed rods. two handed rods need higher grain weights to load properly
Two hander - single handed lines
4wt - 7wt
5wt - 8wt
6wt - 9wt
and so on. of course this is not an exact science but its a place to start when trying to match single handed lines to a two handed rod (usually switches)
Im not sure exactly how they figure out line weights for rods but im sure it has something to do with breaking strength, blank thickness.........etc.
im sure if you were to google your 4wt switch or a 4wt spey it will say they are recommended for fish up to 5lbs (maybe even smaller!!) of course we all know they can handle more weight but to say they are a good match for salmon is just an unethical thing to say especially talking to a newbie fisher/fly fisher. They will not have the skills to control large fish on light tackle and therefore be tiring fish out to the point of death or breaking their tackle costing them money and frustration.
feel free to continue using your 4wt switch for coho because obviously nothing that is said will change your mind. I just dont like seeing people suggest tackle that is too light for the species they are targetting.
HOOK - has used a 5wt for Squamish pinks many times however now has a 5/6 switch to use instead. Wait ! will i even feel them on it ? ::)
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I used to fish a 7 wt sage xp single for coho for years ...and the power to bring in fish with my switch is about the same..intact I might even have more leverage with my switch..I did not recommend the rod to anyone I said it was what I use. Rod wt rating is not all the same for all rod manufactuer. Some might be higher then what it is or lower by a wt.
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I completely agree about rod blanks from one company to another. Have you ever seen the youtube videos put out by Echo on their rods breaking strength ?
another thing is that older rods weighed more because they had thicker graphite than rods do nowadays. the graphite then compared to now is night and day as well. I remember casting a friends older Sage RPL and it felt like a meat stick compared to the two newer Sages i also cast that day. I think it was a 7wt, another i cast was an 8wt and 6" longer, then there was my 5wt. We were fishing pinks off the beach, love pinks ;D
Burkie - how come you havent stated what your 4wt is ? I do remember asking
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I did on earlier posts.. It's a 4wt meiser. I have never ever had any trouble landing any coho on this rod with ease.
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I completely agree about rod blanks from one company to another. Have you ever seen the youtube videos put out by Echo on their rods breaking strength ?
another thing is that older rods weighed more because they had thicker graphite than rods do nowadays. the graphite then compared to now is night and day as well. I remember casting a friends older Sage RPL and it felt like a meat stick compared to the two newer Sages i also cast that day. I think it was a 7wt, another i cast was an 8wt and 6" longer, then there was my 5wt. We were fishing pinks off the beach, love pinks ;D
Burkie - how come you havent stated what your 4wt is ? I do remember asking
Actually, it was an RPL+ 896. It was a top end Sage rod back in the late 1990s. Awesome lifting power - I used this rod to turn chrome bullet chums on the Squish, and big whities on the Vedder.
Hey Burkie, I also have a Sage XP 7 wt and it is a beautiful stick for small salmon. I wouldn't use it for chums or springs though.
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FFM - you have to agree it felt alot heavier in hand compared to the FLi 896 that Stratocaster had which was only a mid range series. Sorry i thought yours was a 9footer and a 7wt so actually the two rods were of exact same length and line wt ;)
Which rod do you grab when your headed to a river with coho but also full of chum and possibly springs as well ?
XP was also the highest end Sage made at the time was it not ?
HOOK - isnt a huge fan of donating flies to the big brutes in our systems >:(
EDIT -- I just read back and there is no mention of a 4wt Meiser, either it was deleted (very possible) or you meant to type it and forgot to (also very possible)
I also looked at the Meiser website and his 4/5wt Highlander classic switch says "all game fish 3-12lbs" !! thats one hell of a meat stick 4wt :o
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FFM - you have to agree it felt alot heavier in hand compared to the FLi 896 that Stratocaster had which was only a mid range series. Sorry i thought yours was a 9footer and a 7wt so actually the two rods were of exact same length and line wt ;)
Which rod do you grab when your headed to a river with coho but also full of chum and possibly springs as well ?
XP was also the highest end Sage made at the time was it not ?
HOOK - isnt a huge fan of donating flies to the big brutes in our systems >:(
EDIT -- I just read back and there is no mention of a 4wt Meiser, either it was deleted (very possible) or you meant to type it and forgot to (also very possible)
I also looked at the Meiser website and his 4/5wt Highlander classic switch says "all game fish 3-12lbs" !! thats one hell of a meat stick 4wt :o
The XP replaced the RPL+ as Sage's premium fast action rod. Yes, the 896 FLi is lighter in hand - I picked one up as a back-up 8 wt rod for a very good price (it was being replaced by the Flight series). Amazing how much rod technology changes over a few years! If I were to target coho, I'd go with my Sage 2106 and Stratocaster's secret sauce roe. ;D ;D ;D
All kidding aside, for coho I'd prefer the 7 wt XP, but would probably go with the 8 wt RPL+ or 8 wt FLi if there were big springs and chums in the mix. But...now that I've got a Z-Axis 7 wt switch... ;)
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Depending on the rod the meiser rods are super light ..except for the mks series. And they bend right through the cork. Fish one if u get a chance and you will know why people rave about his rods.
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I cant say i have "fished" one but i have cast a few of other people's Meisers while they felt the need to feel up my setup :o
HOOK - would really like a 510 Pieroway Metal Detector ;D
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I did on earlier posts.. It's a 4wt meiser. I have never ever had any trouble landing any coho on this rod with ease.
guy named 'Burkie' fishing a Meiser hey? Reminds me of that guy who works at the Pacific Centre Apple Store named Sam Sung.
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Also fish burkies as well