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[fishseeker]

I thought I would post this because there is something I don't quite get.

I fished a few days on the squamish last week and, contrary to what I was led to believe, it was not busy but the water clarity was very poor -  6 inches visibility at best.  I figured I could overcome that by fishing spoons and spinners that would create a lot of vibration but that had limited success.  I did a little better when I switched to jigs under a float and fished them close to the bottom but, after snagging a few, I was not particularly happy with that either.  Just figured I had to get the jigs close to the fish so they could see them but it snagged too many.  Eventually moved to the Mamquam where the water was clearer.

The thing I noticed is the fly fishermen appeared to be doing better and, when I asked, they were using small flies or little pieces of wool on sink tip to get them down to depth.  I was told the key was getting them down which makes sense but how the heck do the fish see that?  I am still not sure if they were really biting or just being accidentally flossed.

Please understand, I am not trying to start a flossing debate because I am pretty sure none of them were trying to floss any fish.  I just seems to go against any conventional wisdom that this should work so much better - any thoughts?

[Sandman]

It is possible to floss with a fly, but harder than you think in water deeper than a foot or two.  You would need a long leader and both an ultra fast sinking tip and a heavily weighted fly, both of which would make casting difficult and darn right dangerous.  Most if us use floating or intermediate sinking lines with six to eight foot leaders or fast sinking tips and short 3 foot leaders (so the fly doesn't ride back up in the water column).  Most fish would not tolerate a thick plastic coated fly line sliding through their mouths long enough for the fly to reach it.  Most would just turn and swim away (which is where they can get foul hooked). If you are really wondering if that fly fisherman is flossing or not than just watch the guy. If the fish is getting hooked on the swing than there is a chance it was flossed if he is using the aforementioned gear, but if the fish (as the vast majority of mine do) hit on the strip retrieve, usually just as I am about to lift the rod for a cast, then clearly they can see in that murky water better than you can.

[zabber]

I was fishing around where you were a few days ago and the fly guys were snagging 'em too. In the pectoral fin, in the tail, pretty much wherever. It did not seem intentional; they were just casting into calm water that was so full of fish that when they were stripping in the fly the hook would occasionally snag a fish.

The fish were swimming around so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a few of 'em swam into their leaders and were flossed.

If you're worried about it, stick to the Howe Sound beaches, or wait for the water to clear up. Alternatively, try chartreuse or purple instead of pink; I've read that they show up better in low vis conditions.

[Bently]

I watched a bunch of fellows from Scotland spey fishing on the Harrison last year for chum, they were all being guided by one of the jet boat outfitters. Truly sincere nice fellows who were having a lot of fun but they also admitted that almost every fish they caught was flossed and where they were fishing was a lot deeper than a few feet of water. I was fishing beside them for most of the day short floating jigs and would help them land their catch as a few of them were a bit older and were getting tired, plus they were taking too long after a while as well, lollol.

To be frank, a T11 or T14 and a weighted down fly is as good a flossing weapon as a bouncing betty with a long leader IMO, that's under the right circumstances of course.

Sorry for the hijack...............

[HOOK]

ok lets get one thing straight here. IF your going to "floss" with a fly then you have to snob it up a little and call it "long lining" instead so it doesn't get you snubbed by the other snobby fly guys (insert emoticon hysterically laughing)


seriously though its actually easier to foul hook fish using a fly line, its like having a long piece of mono sweeping through the current. The trick is to find where the magical area where your light enough to ride just ABOVE the fishes heads so they must rise up to strike. this helps huge in preventing foul hookups but they still happen, also the fresher the majority of fish the less you will snag because they will normally strike before you have a chance to snag another fish

[fishseeker]

Thank you all for your great answers. I think some of them jibe with what I have experienced. When I first started going after salmon I was fly fishing the way Sandman described with a sink tip line and roughly 3 feet of leader to the fly. (I also used a floating line sometimes with a weighted fly which was not as pleasant to cast).   Unfortunately I was never sure if I was getting a bite or simply putting the line through any open mouth down there (aka flossing)

In the end I switched to conventional techniques using jigs or spoons just so I could be sure I was keeping my presentation above them and, having fished this way for a number of seasons now, I am very confident with these techniques and snag considerably fewer fish.  (..though I will admit I was snagging them a lot last week because I was fishing as close to the bottom as possible just to get my presentation close to the noses of the fish in such poor visibility. )

Maybe someday I will have enough finesse and know-how to fly-fish the way HOOK described but I am not sufficiently bored with the conventional short floating techniques yet

I guess I should really be asking how it is that small presentations like little pieces of pink wool or small flies can possibly work better than vibrating spinners or purple colored jigs in the kind of murky water we got in the Squamish River last week?

[Kype]

Not all fly fishers with hi-d sink tips are snaggers! 



Like we noted on another chat recently it is the 'fisher' who snags not the method 

[Kype]

Forgot how bad it is to upload pics here!!! 

[Britguy]

I fished for Pinks the other day using a Type 3 sink line
and out of about 15 fish I think I foul hooked two fish and they were on the swing as the fish were moving up river, sometimes it just happens
The rest took my fly as i made a slow retrieve
The reason the fly guys were doing better is the fly is kept in the zone longer (at the end of the drift) where as a jig or lure is drifting past the fish at speed and by the time the fish sees it, it has passed them.
If you could hold back on the lure then the fish has more time to see it in the murky water

Kype I just looked at some circle hooks today and wish I had got some for gear fishing and to tie some flies--next time

hope this helps

[fishseeker]

I always hold back on spinners when fishing them below a float because I normally always get my hits at the bottom of the drift.   Letting my float sit for about 10 seconds below me followed by a slow retrieve back is how I get most coho in rivers.  I did the same for the pinks but it wasn't making a difference this time - probably just the presentation I was using. (Tried different colors sizes etc)

[RalphH]

I made my first trip this season to the Squish yesterday. Like you it took me some fiddling to 'dial it in' to start getting consistent fair hookups.

A few comments. When looking at water clarity few think of it from the fishes perspective. In clear water light goes into the water and is largely absorbed at the bottom. The water is clear but beyond a certain limited depth looks dark little or no light is reflected back to our eyes, what light that is reflected are the dark spectrum such as blue and green. When we look into turbid (murky) water the particles that make it turbid reflect lots of the light back to our eyes and we see primarily the light grey or brown of the particles and little else. Fish looking up see something different and available light is far more important in what they see. That means what we see exaggerates the apparent lack of of visibility. I don't know to what extent but fish will see objects such as lures and flies at a greater distance than we might think, but particularly if it is in a size or colour that will stand out among the particles in the water. Fish will see it above them against the background of well light shroud of turbid particles. That's why black, dark blue and bright florescent and UV colours work better in such water than drabber colours in smaller presentations. So to sum up, even when the visibility looks all but nil to us it may be quite a bit better for the fish and still possible to catch fish successfully.

I do believe that coloured water or clear, snagging is primarily because the fly, bait or lure is fished too deep. Salmonid feeding response is mostly oriented to what is just above them. If the fly is at the level of the fish or below the probability is high it will contact the fish and snag before the fish can react to it as a food item. The fly needs to be above the fish and how close it needs to be varies with water clarity.

Pinks are great biters and they love to chase. often for quite a distance. They will snap at flies or lures without grabbing them. Over many years I've been able to watch pinks react to my flies but off the beaches as well as in clear rivers. I've found that it's best to present flies above a group of pinks. This can be directly in front and over of the school (best), to the sides or directly over. Run your flies through the school and it's likely to snag a fish. Run a dark sink tip towards a school and they will part to either side of it and disregard the fly.

FWIW the folks that fish a float and a bit of wool or corky were doing very well yesterday with few snagged fish. A short float presentation is one of the easiest ways to to consistently make a presentation just above a fish. For me what works was a type 3 tip, about 3 feet of leader and an unweighted pink fly  with a larger profile than I'd normally use. Most of the strikes came at the end of the swing or on the hang down. I also watched a couple of guys who did well with floating lines  & weighted flies hung a few feet pretty much directly below them in water that was knee deep or less.  That's a smart way to fish in those conditions.

I hope these observations are useful.

[zabber]

Great info guys. Hope to be able to put it to use in the near future!

Cheers

[Chehalis_Steel]

In murky water you need something big and ugly that moves a lot of water like a big bunny leech or an intruder. You might get lucky using a smaller fly if you can get it right in front of a fish's nose but most of the time fish caught like that are actually flossed. It has happened to me before and I could always tell fish caught in murky water with a small fly were snagged or flossed the majority of the time.

[Kype]

Britguy - the circle hooks are great, easy to use and virtually snag free allowing you to use a hi-d sinktip and present a fly correctly (swimming on an even keel) and not mess around with lead shot and a floating line, which a farce to cast properly!

[RalphH]

Pinks in turbid water are flossed? I just rely on where the fish is hooked. Foul hooked is obvious. Fish hooked in the mouth are taking fish. Even in murky water they can find it. With hundreds of fish swimming by every hour some are going to.